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Say NO to synthesis


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#101
Wayning_Star

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[/quote]
Holy crap.

I can't believe the last 10 minutes of 100+ hours can do this to people.

What.the.****?
[/quote]

It would help if you utilize actual arguement, instead of the "I believe you lose" testimony. The more you post, the less you convince. But who said you're trying to convince? You did..lol

That simplification of complex issues may work for you, but not for everyone. Besides, no one actually insists that synthesis is canon. I'm merely promoting the idea that it is inevitable. Mainly, because it is, in real time.

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 21 août 2012 - 11:39 .


#102
PanzerGr3nadier

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Blue Face Beast wrote...

PanzerGr3nadier wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

If synthesis is canonized, it would be horrible. I don't like the idea of everyone living alongside husks, marauders, and banshees. Its just sick.


Pretty much this. Lately  BW has made some (imo) "retarded" decisions and making the synthesis as canon ending would be the most retarded one to date..... the last nail in the coffin...


How is that sick? They were your enemies and it was fair to fight them. If they are not your enemies anymore, why would you deny them their right to exist?

Because they used to be other people? Well, they are now what they are and they turned pacific. Do they still need to die?


Yes because, They used to be other people. They are hollow from the inside... they are indoctrinated and Reapers are controlling them. They are dead.

Organics = Synthesis = Reapers + Indoctrinated

#103
Blue Face Beast

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Jade8aby88 wrote...

Blue Face Beast wrote...

You say they are all immoral choices. That is by your personal standards? Your Shepard personality standards? Terran standards? Prothean standards? Other organic races standards? Synthetic life standards?

I think you personally see these choices has unacceptable and thus decide they are unacceptable for every other players and go as far as judging them all immorals.


No, real life values say they are immoral. With each ending carrying it's own destruction to preservation.


Like Garrus said, personnaly i see nothing immoral in sacrificing 10 billion people to save 1 million. Some people would certainly object to that and some would even prefer having everyone die just so they do not have to choose who lives and who dies.


I wonder what he'd say once he realizes you let the Reapers live and they are going to be here to stay. Don't forget his whole 10 million lost for 1 billion lived was in regards to the Reapers killing people.


Morality is a luxury is some situations. You get to make tough calls and you live with them. I liked Mass Effect serie for that, it brings great dilemmas and things rarely ends being perfect and all clean.


That's just a lie. Sure there was times like Virmire or Shepard's death in ME2. Even Sovereign attack on Citadel and choosing between alliance and council.
But at the end of the day, you come out clean. And so did mostly everyone else. In ME2 I survived a suicide mission with my entire 12 squad and not one crew member died. You might have chosen to play it with more sacrifice so I understand the points you're trying to make if you did.

But not me.


The way i am reading you i can see that you identify alot with your character, your Shepard. It sounds like you did only one play ro that every play you did you were making the same choices.

I did multiple replays and had no problem endorsing and acting has an uncompromising and rude Shepard or a Paragon or a mix of the two... In one replay, i had great fun betraying the Krogan, shotting Mordin in the back and etc... No remorse whatsoever because i wanted my character to be like that.

When it comes to the end, depending of which Shepard i am playing and depending of the personality i gave him, there are choices at the Crucible that makes lot of sense for him to make and to never look back. I tried every choices and they all made sense depending on how my Shepard was seeing things.

One of my Shepard did not give **** about the Geth, Synthetics, Reapers and AI. He decided to destroy the Reapers and never looked back. History will judge him for that. Was he a moral person or not?

Real life values are not a thing set in stone. They vary from an era to another, from a species to another... Heck from a person to another...

You said your Shepard could come out clean all the time during your gameplay. Well, mine never never did. None of them, even the most Paragon one had a stain.
 

#104
PanzerGr3nadier

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Blue Face Beast wrote...

PanzerGr3nadier wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

If synthesis is canonized, it would be horrible. I don't like the idea of everyone living alongside husks, marauders, and banshees. Its just sick.


Pretty much this. Lately  BW has made some (imo) "retarded" decisions and making the synthesis as canon ending would be the most retarded one to date..... the last nail in the coffin...


How is that sick? They were your enemies and it was fair to fight them. If they are not your enemies anymore, why would you deny them their right to exist?

Because they used to be other people? Well, they are now what they are and they turned pacific. Do they still need to die?


Yes because, They used to be other people. They are hollow from the inside... they are indoctrinated and Reapers are controlling them. They are dead.

Organics = Synthesis = Reapers + Indoctrinated people

Modifié par PanzerGr3nadier, 21 août 2012 - 11:42 .


#105
Wayning_Star

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Grizzly46 wrote...

Blue Face Beast wrote...

PanzerGr3nadier wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

If synthesis is canonized, it would be horrible. I don't like the idea of everyone living alongside husks, marauders, and banshees. Its just sick.


Pretty much this. Lately  BW has made some (imo) "retarded" decisions and making the synthesis as canon ending would be the most retarded one to date..... the last nail in the coffin...


How is that sick? They were your enemies and it was fair to fight them. If they are not your enemies anymore, why would you deny them their right to exist?

Because they used to be other people? Well, they are now what they are and they turned pacific. Do they still need to die?


Someone murdered someone else 30 years ago. Should he still go to prison?


but technically, the reapers don't actually murder, the're machines, incapable of murder. Unless you consider them 'people', or 'someone'.. We cannot create precident to fit our arguements, as if our arguement it's self IS the controlling precident.

#106
Blue Face Beast

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Grizzly46 wrote...

Blue Face Beast wrote...

PanzerGr3nadier wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

If synthesis is canonized, it would be horrible. I don't like the idea of everyone living alongside husks, marauders, and banshees. Its just sick.


Pretty much this. Lately  BW has made some (imo) "retarded" decisions and making the synthesis as canon ending would be the most retarded one to date..... the last nail in the coffin...


How is that sick? They were your enemies and it was fair to fight them. If they are not your enemies anymore, why would you deny them their right to exist?

Because they used to be other people? Well, they are now what they are and they turned pacific. Do they still need to die?


Someone murdered someone else 30 years ago. Should he still go to prison?


By your logic, every soldier who have ever shotted someone during a war should go to prison?

Why the different treatment for Reapers? Because they are ugly? Because they are synthetic like the Geth? They have no right?

My point is that no matter all the people they killed, it was a war. and once a war is over, soldiers normally do not get all terminated, whichever side they were fighting for.

People keep seeing Reapers like they are not persons and basically they would want to treat them like quarians wanted to treat Geth. Im fine with that, it is a call your Shepard can do.

But if your Shepard could even accept the idea of a truce between Geth and Quarians, it is not far fetched to consider that if Reapers are sentient and that peace can be achieved with them, some Shepard might give it a serious thought.

#107
Wayning_Star

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PanzerGr3nadier wrote...



Blue Face Beast wrote...

PanzerGr3nadier wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

If synthesis is canonized, it would be horrible. I don't like the idea of everyone living alongside husks, marauders, and banshees. Its just sick.


Pretty much this. Lately  BW has made some (imo) "retarded" decisions and making the synthesis as canon ending would be the most retarded one to date..... the last nail in the coffin...


How is that sick? They were your enemies and it was fair to fight them. If they are not your enemies anymore, why would you deny them their right to exist?

Because they used to be other people? Well, they are now what they are and they turned pacific. Do they still need to die?


Yes because, They used to be other people. They are hollow from the inside... they are indoctrinated and Reapers are controlling them. They are dead.

Organics = Synthesis = Reapers + Indoctrinated people



eeeeenk..no point!! We have NO idea what they are from the inside. Even if indoctrinated, they are the same person, only controlled from without, innocent. We cannot simply transfer 'guilt' by association that way. If DNA samples are dead, then why save them like we do now? To be created in another form later?!? (who knew?)

synthesis is NOT inodoctrination in any way.

#108
Blue Face Beast

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PanzerGr3nadier wrote...

Blue Face Beast wrote...

PanzerGr3nadier wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

If synthesis is canonized, it would be horrible. I don't like the idea of everyone living alongside husks, marauders, and banshees. Its just sick.


Pretty much this. Lately  BW has made some (imo) "retarded" decisions and making the synthesis as canon ending would be the most retarded one to date..... the last nail in the coffin...


How is that sick? They were your enemies and it was fair to fight them. If they are not your enemies anymore, why would you deny them their right to exist?

Because they used to be other people? Well, they are now what they are and they turned pacific. Do they still need to die?


Yes because, They used to be other people. They are hollow from the inside... they are indoctrinated and Reapers are controlling them. They are dead.

Organics = Synthesis = Reapers + Indoctrinated


Says who? Where is it clearly explained that synthesis turns every organics into some kind of mindless zombies? The footage ive seen from the synthesis ending looked more like a renewal and even a coming golden age for every living thing in the galaxy...

In the ending footage it certainly looked optimistic and i saw no one cried.

We can make all kind of theories but only Bioware really knows what Synthesis means and they've shown us what they wanted us to see of it. Where is the truth? Well there is no way to know but based on the footage, synthesis does not look like hell. It is open to imagination.

 

#109
B.Shep

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So the reapers neve killed anyone? And what about everyone they harvest in this cycle or during millions(or maybe billions) of years ago? Sorry but i don't buy this "technically".

The galaxy is a better place without them around.

#110
Ryudoz28

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Yeah, i know, this kind of pictures are overused, they are stupid, but god, 90% of the people on these forums deserve it.

Image IPB

#111
Wayning_Star

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B.Shep wrote...

So the reapers neve killed anyone? And what about everyone they harvest in this cycle or during millions(or maybe billions) of years ago? Sorry but i don't buy this "technically".

The galaxy is a better place without them around.


but, it's not "just about" them, as beings/creations/machines/what ever. It's about their 'cargo' and why and what to do for/about those that. Every reapership destroyed is all those harvested lost to oblivion. Seems a waste, doesn't it?

#112
GreyLycanTrope

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They already torched the franchise as far as I'm concerned, if this is the route they want to go I should have gotten out sooner.

#113
BD Manchild

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Ryudoz28 wrote...

Yeah, i know, this kind of pictures are overused, they are stupid, but god, 90% of the people on these forums deserve it.

*image snipped*


Overused? Maybe. Relevant? Good Lord, yes.

#114
Wayning_Star

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Ryudoz28 wrote...

Yeah, i know, this kind of pictures are overused, they are stupid, but god, 90% of the people on these forums deserve it.

Image IPB


huh?.. s'funny, I don't feel a bit bad. Some old guys talking lobster prank doesn't really affect me all that much.

#115
Wayning_Star

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lol, so many just don't have the quads to make the choice..eventhought they've already chosen it.

(go figure;)

#116
Grizzly46

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Blue Face Beast wrote...

Grizzly46 wrote...

Blue Face Beast wrote...

PanzerGr3nadier wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

If synthesis is canonized, it would be horrible. I don't like the idea of everyone living alongside husks, marauders, and banshees. Its just sick.


Pretty much this. Lately  BW has made some (imo) "retarded" decisions and making the synthesis as canon ending would be the most retarded one to date..... the last nail in the coffin...


How is that sick? They were your enemies and it was fair to fight them. If they are not your enemies anymore, why would you deny them their right to exist?

Because they used to be other people? Well, they are now what they are and they turned pacific. Do they still need to die?


Someone murdered someone else 30 years ago. Should he still go to prison?


By your logic, every soldier who have ever shotted someone during a war should go to prison?

Why the different treatment for Reapers? Because they are ugly? Because they are synthetic like the Geth? They have no right?

My point is that no matter all the people they killed, it was a war. and once a war is over, soldiers normally do not get all terminated, whichever side they were fighting for.

People keep seeing Reapers like they are not persons and basically they would want to treat them like quarians wanted to treat Geth. Im fine with that, it is a call your Shepard can do.

But if your Shepard could even accept the idea of a truce between Geth and Quarians, it is not far fetched to consider that if Reapers are sentient and that peace can be achieved with them, some Shepard might give it a serious thought.


In war, killing falls under the term justifiable murder.

And yes, the reapers are different. They do what they are created to do, harvest advanced civilizations (which was pointed out by the ghost child in his analogue of fire). A human can kill in war and still go back to a normal civilian life, but the reapers? They exist only to harvest (which EDI points out too IIRC). The geth are not inherently violent - they fought to defend themselves, and the heretics fought for the future to be given to them by the Old Machines. Neither the heretics or the geth existed simply to destroy and kill.

Besides, if the reapers are destroyed as per Shepard's decision, it is simply part as an act of war from Shepard's side. They made the decision to harvest advanced civilizations, and for that they pay the price, since every decision will have consequenses sooner or later.

#117
LilLino

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Synthesis is ugly. If they made it cannon, the sequel would be complete freak-show. I don't want to see it happen, besides it's supposed to end all conflict and brain-wash everyone to love&hug one another, there's no way they expand upon that... I hope.

#118
PanzerGr3nadier

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Wayning_Star wrote...

PanzerGr3nadier wrote...



Blue Face Beast wrote...

PanzerGr3nadier wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

If synthesis is canonized, it would be horrible. I don't like the idea of everyone living alongside husks, marauders, and banshees. Its just sick.


Pretty much this. Lately  BW has made some (imo) "retarded" decisions and making the synthesis as canon ending would be the most retarded one to date..... the last nail in the coffin...


How is that sick? They were your enemies and it was fair to fight them. If they are not your enemies anymore, why would you deny them their right to exist?

Because they used to be other people? Well, they are now what they are and they turned pacific. Do they still need to die?


Yes because, They used to be other people. They are hollow from the inside... they are indoctrinated and Reapers are controlling them. They are dead.

Organics = Synthesis = Reapers + Indoctrinated people



eeeeenk..no point!! We have NO idea what they are from the inside. Even if indoctrinated, they are the same person, only controlled from without, innocent. We cannot simply transfer 'guilt' by association that way. If DNA samples are dead, then why save them like we do now? To be created in another form later?!? (who knew?)

synthesis is NOT inodoctrination in any way.


Fully indoctrinated individuals have no free will, memories or anything which would mean that they are people. All that they used to be is taken by the Reapers, who "own" them. They are just shells that are controlled by the reapers... and since the reapers are still alive in synthesis, the "plugins" are still controlled.

You should read ME:Retribution. It describes the indoctrination process.

#119
MB957

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sinthusys is s*** bogs...

#120
Soultaker08

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At first it seems this is against canonizing a special ending for future games.

and then you realize this is another "my ending is better b*tch m*therf*cker gtfo!"-thread

#121
Blue Face Beast

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Grizzly46 wrote...

Blue Face Beast wrote...

Grizzly46 wrote...

Blue Face Beast wrote...

PanzerGr3nadier wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

If synthesis is canonized, it would be horrible. I don't like the idea of everyone living alongside husks, marauders, and banshees. Its just sick.


Pretty much this. Lately  BW has made some (imo) "retarded" decisions and making the synthesis as canon ending would be the most retarded one to date..... the last nail in the coffin...


How is that sick? They were your enemies and it was fair to fight them. If they are not your enemies anymore, why would you deny them their right to exist?

Because they used to be other people? Well, they are now what they are and they turned pacific. Do they still need to die?


Someone murdered someone else 30 years ago. Should he still go to prison?


By your logic, every soldier who have ever shotted someone during a war should go to prison?

Why the different treatment for Reapers? Because they are ugly? Because they are synthetic like the Geth? They have no right?

My point is that no matter all the people they killed, it was a war. and once a war is over, soldiers normally do not get all terminated, whichever side they were fighting for.

People keep seeing Reapers like they are not persons and basically they would want to treat them like quarians wanted to treat Geth. Im fine with that, it is a call your Shepard can do.

But if your Shepard could even accept the idea of a truce between Geth and Quarians, it is not far fetched to consider that if Reapers are sentient and that peace can be achieved with them, some Shepard might give it a serious thought.


In war, killing falls under the term justifiable murder.

And yes, the reapers are different. They do what they are created to do, harvest advanced civilizations (which was pointed out by the ghost child in his analogue of fire). A human can kill in war and still go back to a normal civilian life, but the reapers? They exist only to harvest (which EDI points out too IIRC). The geth are not inherently violent - they fought to defend themselves, and the heretics fought for the future to be given to them by the Old Machines. Neither the heretics or the geth existed simply to destroy and kill.

Besides, if the reapers are destroyed as per Shepard's decision, it is simply part as an act of war from Shepard's side. They made the decision to harvest advanced civilizations, and for that they pay the price, since every decision will have consequenses sooner or later.


I understand your reasoning and it is sound. I respect that. But i also respected the Illusive Man point of view thought i disagreed with him on most playthrough, and i finally can get behind a Shepard who would consider ending the Reaper threat by going Synthesis if it is seen as harmless for all organics.

You know... there are no simple answers to these questions. And if there were, the game would have been hella boring.
 

Modifié par Blue Face Beast, 21 août 2012 - 12:19 .


#122
Wayning_Star

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PanzerGr3nadier wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

PanzerGr3nadier wrote...



Blue Face Beast wrote...

PanzerGr3nadier wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

If synthesis is canonized, it would be horrible. I don't like the idea of everyone living alongside husks, marauders, and banshees. Its just sick.


Pretty much this. Lately  BW has made some (imo) "retarded" decisions and making the synthesis as canon ending would be the most retarded one to date..... the last nail in the coffin...


How is that sick? They were your enemies and it was fair to fight them. If they are not your enemies anymore, why would you deny them their right to exist?

Because they used to be other people? Well, they are now what they are and they turned pacific. Do they still need to die?


Yes because, They used to be other people. They are hollow from the inside... they are indoctrinated and Reapers are controlling them. They are dead.

Organics = Synthesis = Reapers + Indoctrinated people



eeeeenk..no point!! We have NO idea what they are from the inside. Even if indoctrinated, they are the same person, only controlled from without, innocent. We cannot simply transfer 'guilt' by association that way. If DNA samples are dead, then why save them like we do now? To be created in another form later?!? (who knew?)

synthesis is NOT inodoctrination in any way.


Fully indoctrinated individuals have no free will, memories or anything which would mean that they are people. All that they used to be is taken by the Reapers, who "own" them. They are just shells that are controlled by the reapers... and since the reapers are still alive in synthesis, the "plugins" are still controlled.

You should read ME:Retribution. It describes the indoctrination process.


no, they are not controlled, there is no need to control that what is not a threat. Synthesis is the adaptation of miniscule amounts of matter between synthetic life forms and bilogical life forms. There is NO radio controlled beings at all there. That's the very point of it, to remove the 'reaper threat' and the organic threat to reaper/catalyst programs pattern of control. It contrived this to control 'chaos', it's simplified version of evolution..

You are running two totally different concepts into one neat self defense arguenment. I think they call it a 'pre concieved' notion, or predisposition. You cannot base your arguement on your instant theory, disregarding lore/MEU based reality points. Simply put, you misread/misapplied what you read in the "Retribution" storylines.

#123
Wayning_Star

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Blue Face Beast wrote...

Grizzly46 wrote...

Blue Face Beast wrote...

Grizzly46 wrote...

Blue Face Beast wrote...

PanzerGr3nadier wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

If synthesis is canonized, it would be horrible. I don't like the idea of everyone living alongside husks, marauders, and banshees. Its just sick.


Pretty much this. Lately  BW has made some (imo) "retarded" decisions and making the synthesis as canon ending would be the most retarded one to date..... the last nail in the coffin...


How is that sick? They were your enemies and it was fair to fight them. If they are not your enemies anymore, why would you deny them their right to exist?

Because they used to be other people? Well, they are now what they are and they turned pacific. Do they still need to die?


Someone murdered someone else 30 years ago. Should he still go to prison?


By your logic, every soldier who have ever shotted someone during a war should go to prison?

Why the different treatment for Reapers? Because they are ugly? Because they are synthetic like the Geth? They have no right?

My point is that no matter all the people they killed, it was a war. and once a war is over, soldiers normally do not get all terminated, whichever side they were fighting for.

People keep seeing Reapers like they are not persons and basically they would want to treat them like quarians wanted to treat Geth. Im fine with that, it is a call your Shepard can do.

But if your Shepard could even accept the idea of a truce between Geth and Quarians, it is not far fetched to consider that if Reapers are sentient and that peace can be achieved with them, some Shepard might give it a serious thought.


In war, killing falls under the term justifiable murder.

And yes, the reapers are different. They do what they are created to do, harvest advanced civilizations (which was pointed out by the ghost child in his analogue of fire). A human can kill in war and still go back to a normal civilian life, but the reapers? They exist only to harvest (which EDI points out too IIRC). The geth are not inherently violent - they fought to defend themselves, and the heretics fought for the future to be given to them by the Old Machines. Neither the heretics or the geth existed simply to destroy and kill.

Besides, if the reapers are destroyed as per Shepard's decision, it is simply part as an act of war from Shepard's side. They made the decision to harvest advanced civilizations, and for that they pay the price, since every decision will have consequenses sooner or later.


I understand your reasoning and it is sound. I respect that. But i also respected the Illusive Man point of view thought i disagreed with him on most playthrough, and i finally can get behind a Shepard who would consider ending the Reaper threat by going Synthesis if it is seen as harmless for all organics.

You know... there are no simple answers to these questions. And if there were, the game would have been hella boring.
 


actually, it's not approached like that at all, there is no 'justifiable murder'. That is an incorrect statement/jibberish.

Murder is murder. Killing is another whole different concept. (all wrong, but acceptable for some rationalization that fits the 'cause', as it were.)

#124
Blue Face Beast

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Wayning_Star wrote...

PanzerGr3nadier wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

PanzerGr3nadier wrote...



Blue Face Beast wrote...

PanzerGr3nadier wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

If synthesis is canonized, it would be horrible. I don't like the idea of everyone living alongside husks, marauders, and banshees. Its just sick.


Pretty much this. Lately  BW has made some (imo) "retarded" decisions and making the synthesis as canon ending would be the most retarded one to date..... the last nail in the coffin...


How is that sick? They were your enemies and it was fair to fight them. If they are not your enemies anymore, why would you deny them their right to exist?

Because they used to be other people? Well, they are now what they are and they turned pacific. Do they still need to die?


Yes because, They used to be other people. They are hollow from the inside... they are indoctrinated and Reapers are controlling them. They are dead.

Organics = Synthesis = Reapers + Indoctrinated people



eeeeenk..no point!! We have NO idea what they are from the inside. Even if indoctrinated, they are the same person, only controlled from without, innocent. We cannot simply transfer 'guilt' by association that way. If DNA samples are dead, then why save them like we do now? To be created in another form later?!? (who knew?)

synthesis is NOT inodoctrination in any way.


Fully indoctrinated individuals have no free will, memories or anything which would mean that they are people. All that they used to be is taken by the Reapers, who "own" them. They are just shells that are controlled by the reapers... and since the reapers are still alive in synthesis, the "plugins" are still controlled.

You should read ME:Retribution. It describes the indoctrination process.


no, they are not controlled, there is no need to control that what is not a threat. Synthesis is the adaptation of miniscule amounts of matter between synthetic life forms and bilogical life forms. There is NO radio controlled beings at all there. That's the very point of it, to remove the 'reaper threat' and the organic threat to reaper/catalyst programs pattern of control. It contrived this to control 'chaos', it's simplified version of evolution..

You are running two totally different concepts into one neat self defense arguenment. I think they call it a 'pre concieved' notion, or predisposition. You cannot base your arguement on your instant theory, disregarding lore/MEU based reality points. Simply put, you misread/misapplied what you read in the "Retribution" storylines.


The way i see it, Synthesis is no different than X-Men mutation. Your body cells get altered somehow and you get turned into something different.

Now, from what we could see from the Synthesis ending, and only what was shown ( no extrapolations ), it "seems" anything that is existing in the galaxy turned allright.

Now has Bioware shown us everything and is that the whole truth? I can't tell. NO ONE CAN. Because no one knows for a fact what Synthesis aftermath is other than what we were all shown.

#125
Applepie_Svk

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ShepnTali wrote...

If the word on the street is true, that Bioware intends to build on synthesis 'canon' in the future, say no.

Or don't, that's fair. I however am firmly in the NO column. As much as I don't like Control, I could actually swallow that a little easier, but that's not saying much. 




Synthesis presented by Catalyst is BS, reasons:

1. Reapers destroyed last cycle symbiotic specie Zha´til by using them as mindless weapon.
If the Synthesis is realy final step of evolution than we will need to go thru symbiosis in order to find a way to evolve more, but Reapers killed those which walk in that way.

2. What Catalyst said isn´t fact, it´s just his assumption - he never saw synthesis working because he force it always when he has a chance.

3.Synthesis may occured, but it must be in natural way and not in forced by genocidal maniac.