476 réponses à ce sujet

[Wayning_Star]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

Blue Face Beast wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

ShepnTali wrote...

If the word on the street is true, that Bioware intends to build on synthesis 'canon' in the future, say no.

Or don't, that's fair. I however am firmly in the NO column. As much as I don't like Control, I could actually swallow that a little easier, but that's not saying much. 

Synthesis presented by Catalyst is BS, reasons:

1. Reapers destroyed last cycle symbiotic specie Zha´til by using them as mindless weapon.
If the Synthesis is realy final step of evolution than we will need to go thru symbiosis in order to find a way to evolve more, but Reapers killed those which walk in that way.

2. What Catalyst said isn´t fact, it´s just his assumption - he never saw synthesis working because he force it always when he has a chance.

3.Synthesis may occured, but it must be in natural way and not in forced by genocidal maniac.

oop's  who invented the reapers/catalyst? Who invented technology? Who is the genocidal maniac?
Machines?!?


(not me, I just play video games..lol)

The catalyst is the genocidal maniac and he has no excuse. People need to stop saying "they're not reponsible it's not their fault"

He is responsible for the death of trillions e is an abomination

Viruses and diseases are responsible for billions of death and humans have no second thought fighting them with whatever science solution they can come up with. It is a matter of survival. You kill them before they kill you.
i am sure lot of people see the Reapers like that. I think it is a very valid point of view and it justifies the eradication of the threat by any mean necessary.

And i am sure Reapers are thinking just the same about organics because killing advanced organics is their job.

But now you get proposed the possibilitiy that the virus can be turned non-hostile and that the cycle of harvest/extinction would come to a stop, leaving organics and synthetics at peace with a newfound "mutual comprehension and acceptation".

I can see very well a Shepard or any other organic accepting such terms if it means the end of hostility and a new era of prosperity for the whole galaxy.

Really, i can understand why some people would vouch for Synthesis if it beneficial for everyone.

viruses aren't sentient, and they kill out of survival. Reapers are sentient (or mayb not accordin to the catalyst).  Reapers are kiling peple tht are no threat to them.
The virus aren't anywhere near sentient, they are not morally significant We already use hem as tools, as thy have useful properties.

Now reapers don't. We don't need any reaper alive, and thy are to much of a threat to be alloed t live. ot to mention they are horrible monster.
Kill them, reverse engeneer thei tech, done. That's the extent of their usefulness.
nd don' bring up "the knowledge of previous cyce", it's useless to us, except as a curiosity.

And again, using viruses to help people is not he same as forcing everyone t be linked with each other and with genocida machines.  I know i wouldn't want to be permanently conected with everyone through facebok, and many oher people woldn't like that. So no, synthesis doesn't bring the greater good. Conflict won't end without brainwashing anyway.

to interject: Look up the difference between 'sentient' and 'sapient'. I did and it makes a big difference on how to look at the interacting between them, as synthetic life forms.

[Wayning_Star]

Nyoka wrote...

It's amusing that people think synthesis is inevitable and will happen naturally sooner or later.

actually, the fact that it's happing now, in real time, here on old earth, that's the gripper. That is hinted at in the lore of the game and actually in real time with Bioware spoilers, such as they are..spoilers.

[scampermax]

Nyoka wrote...

Using a car doesn't make you a transformer.

the dealer lied to me? damn salesmen will tell you anything...

[Kamfrenchie]

Blue Face Beast wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote:
"And again, using viruses to help people is not he same as forcing everyone t be linked with each other and with genocida machines.  I know i wouldn't want to be permanently conected with everyone through facebok, and many oher people woldn't like that. So no, synthesis doesn't bring the greater good. Conflict won't end without brainwashing anyway."


You are assuming alot. Care to explain where you got for a fact that going for synthesis would connect everyone to a great universal facebook and that everyone would stop being who they are and suddenly turn into things that have no minds of their own?

organics are outfitted or rewritten to have synthetic-like capabilities adn connecting them.

the catalyst says there will be peace. I say th only way synthesis could insantly bring peace is to brainwash everyone, because there have been many conflicts that weren't "synthetic vs organic".

Conflict often happen because of ressources and hatred, and none of that is fixed by synthesis. So i there is peace, then everyone is brainwashed

(Reewritting somene DNA would also in all logic kill the person and replace it with a similar one, )

+ the reapers are here, and everyone seems to hve to circuits on them, so yeah, there is some form of connection.

And anyway, you're still forcing synthesis.

I don' wantto live with reapers, or to hae that new DNA or that green stuff on me no thanks;

+ space magic

[Wayning_Star]

[/quote]

I think Kamfrenchie's point re: the Geth (and the Zha'til for that matter) is that the Catalyst - via the Reapers - used the synthetics against the organics. If it was maintaining peace, and it's established that they can control and manipulate synthetics, just why not just prevent them from killing organics in the first place?

[/quote]

From what I could tell with the catalyst, it's programming wouldn't allow it to have abstract thought/ideas, that might interfere with it's prime. That being the cycle, that controls chaos.

The Geth had sapience to advantage them on abstracts, the catalyst did not, being only sentient. The Geth thought they were 'using' the reapers to help prevent them from extinction. Similar to the illusive man, thinking he could control the reapers, and 'use' them for human advancment/power trip.

The reapers only permitted the organic and capable synthetic life forms to 'continue' with what ever ideas they might have. It only seemed like the reapers were 'using' them. They didn't have the need to use anyone, other than husks and the like for their brute force tactical advantages. They don't care about organics in any way, if the cycle was invoked.

""There is NO WAR, only the harvest"" That statement pretty well sums up the the intellect of the reapers.

[lillitheris]

OK! “No.”

[Kamfrenchie]

Wayning_Star wrote...




to interject: Look up the difference between 'sentient' and 'sapient'. I did and it makes a big difference on how to look at the interacting between them, as synthetic life forms.

coul you elaborate ?

anyway, i'm talking about the presence of intelligenc abilty to take decisions etc.

[Wayning_Star]

Nyoka wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

It's amusing that people think synthesis is inevitable and will happen naturally sooner or later.

actually, the fact that it's happing now, in real time, here on old earth, that's the gripper. That is hinted at in the lore of the game and actually in real time with Bioware spoilers, such as they are..spoilers.

Using a car doesn't make you a transformer.

well, wouldn't that depend on the car?

[lillitheris]

In colloquial use, ‘sapient’ is a more evolved version of ‘sentient’. As in, an animal is sentient, but people are sapient.

In philosophy, ‘sentient’ can be used to refer to the emotional side (complex emotions) whereas ‘sapient’ refers to intellect. People are therefore both sentient and sapient, and missing one side is a defect.

I don’t really like the latter use, but it’s prevalent in these discussions.

Modifié par lillitheris, 21 août 2012 - 01:46 .

[Lord Goose]

the catalyst says there will be peace. I say th only way
synthesis could insantly bring peace is to brainwash
everyone, because there have been many conflicts that
weren't "synthetic vs organic".

Synthetic vs Organic is probably the only real conflict for him.
And if you have cured genophage with Wreav in charge, and Eve alive, he kills her and is going to unleash Krogan forces on the Galaxy.
Definitely he is not brainwashed.

[Kamfrenchie]

[quote]Wayning_Star wrote...

[/quote]

I think Kamfrenchie's point re: the Geth (and the Zha'til for that matter) is that the Catalyst - via the Reapers - used the synthetics against the organics. If it was maintaining peace, and it's established that they can control and manipulate synthetics, just why not just prevent them from killing organics in the first place?

[/quote]

From what I could tell with the catalyst, it's programming wouldn't allow it to have abstract thought/ideas, that might interfere with it's prime. That being the cycle, that controls chaos.

The Geth had sapience to advantage them on abstracts, the catalyst did not, being only sentient. The Geth thought they were 'using' the reapers to help prevent them from extinction. Similar to the illusive man, thinking he could control the reapers, and 'use' them for human advancment/power trip.

The reapers only permitted the organic and capable synthetic life forms to 'continue' with what ever ideas they might have. It only seemed like the reapers were 'using' them. They didn't have the need to use anyone, other than husks and the like for their brute force tactical advantages. They don't care about organics in any way, if the cycle was invoked.

""There is NO WAR, only the harvest"" That statement pretty well sums up the the intellect of the reapers.[/quote]

excep you don't know that for sure, you'e speculating on the catalyst. I assume all AI have similar capabilities. f the geth can decide notto kill everyone, surely the catalyst could too.

Don' forget he was meant to oversee the relations between organics and synthetics.

he was apparently meant to be a mediator, and mayb have sme troops to behave like the blue helmet soldiers...

Even with a bad programming, how could that lead to "yo dawg" ?


Best to assume he is responsible

[Kamfrenchie]

Lord Goose wrote...

the catalyst says there will be peace. I say th only way
synthesis could insantly bring peace is to brainwash
everyone, because there have been many conflicts that
weren't "synthetic vs organic".

Synthetic vs Organic is probably the only real conflict for him.
And if you have cured genophage with Wreav in charge, and Eve alive, he kills her and is going to unleash Krogan forces on the Galaxy.
Definitely he is not brainwashed.

link ?

[Wayning_Star]

[quote]Kamfrenchie wrote...

[quote]Wayning_Star wrote...

[/quote]

I think Kamfrenchie's point re: the Geth (and the Zha'til for that matter) is that the Catalyst - via the Reapers - used the synthetics against the organics. If it was maintaining peace, and it's established that they can control and manipulate synthetics, just why not just prevent them from killing organics in the first place?

[/quote]

From what I could tell with the catalyst, it's programming wouldn't allow it to have abstract thought/ideas, that might interfere with it's prime. That being the cycle, that controls chaos.

The Geth had sapience to advantage them on abstracts, the catalyst did not, being only sentient. The Geth thought they were 'using' the reapers to help prevent them from extinction. Similar to the illusive man, thinking he could control the reapers, and 'use' them for human advancment/power trip.

The reapers only permitted the organic and capable synthetic life forms to 'continue' with what ever ideas they might have. It only seemed like the reapers were 'using' them. They didn't have the need to use anyone, other than husks and the like for their brute force tactical advantages. They don't care about organics in any way, if the cycle was invoked.

""There is NO WAR, only the harvest"" That statement pretty well sums up the the intellect of the reapers.[/quote]

excep you don't know that for sure, you'e speculating on the catalyst. I assume all AI have similar capabilities. f the geth can decide notto kill everyone, surely the catalyst could too.

Don' forget he was meant to oversee the relations between organics and synthetics.

he was apparently meant to be a mediator, and mayb have sme troops to behave like the blue helmet soldiers...

Even with a bad programming, how could that lead to "yo dawg" ?


Best to assume he is responsible

[/quote]

You called 'it' a 'he', that is an organic description, catering to your opinion of something no one can understand,as is.

We cannot fall back on 'destroy' unless we obtain rationalization for blame. Eventhough, we cannot fathom blaming those who inadvertently created the catalyst then reapers then spontanious development of synthetic life forms, thus creating the cycle/pattern. WE cannot look in the mirror for fear of what we might see there? The catalyst, doing our dirty work?

Besides, lore dictates that we cannot just 'destroy', as it'll come back to haunt us in any event. The only way to rid the MEU of overbearing technology is to divorce it completely, or it will become an integral part of the organic compendium.

Makes a player wonder why the original creators keeps leaving just enough high tech around to cause trouble. The catalyst isn't capable of such skull duggery..

[Kamfrenchie]

Wayning_Star wrote...





You called 'it' a 'he', that is an organic description, catering to your opinion of something no one can understand,as is.

We cannot fall back on 'destroy' unless we obtain rationalization for blame. Eventhough, we cannot fathom blaming those who inadvertently created the catalyst then reapers then spontanious development of synthetic life forms, thus creating the cycle/pattern. WE cannot look in the mirror for fear of what we might see there? The catalyst, doing our dirty work?

Besides, lore dictates that we cannot just 'destroy', as it'll come back to haunt us in any event. The only way to rid the MEU of overbearing technology is to divorce it completely, or it will become an integral part of the organic compendium.

Makes a player wonder why the original creators keeps leaving just enough high tech around to cause trouble. The catalyst isn't capable of such skull duggery..

Please use the quote abit better
sorry but this is sterile theorycrafting.

I blame the one that is in charge of the genocide, I don't know his creators enough, only that they disapproved the catalyst. t maks more sense to think te catalyst is responsible...

S what, the civ tha created the reapers culdn' program an AI right, when the quarians created the geth as peaceful beings without even trying ? Yeah right.
uit excusing him, and i'll use "he" if i want to, afterall h decided to appear as a brat.

Oh yes we can destoy that monstruosity andno it won't come bck to haunt us.
And no the catlyst doesn't do ou dirty work, no one was ever ok wth what he did.

I look in the mirror and i see it clearly, the catalyst is an abomination that deserve  to go to hell. And he doesn't do my dirty work

Tech doesn't hae to be implemented in anyone against their will. Forcing it "because it's inevitable" is criminal

Modifié par Kamfrenchie, 21 août 2012 - 02:18 .

[Wayning_Star]

[/quote]

You called 'it' a 'he', that is an organic description, catering to your opinion of something no one can understand,as is.

We cannot fall back on 'destroy' unless we obtain rationalization for blame. Eventhough, we cannot fathom blaming those who inadvertently created the catalyst then reapers then spontanious development of synthetic life forms, thus creating the cycle/pattern. WE cannot look in the mirror for fear of what we might see there? The catalyst, doing our dirty work?

Besides, lore dictates that we cannot just 'destroy', as it'll come back to haunt us in any event. The only way to rid the MEU of overbearing technology is to divorce it completely, or it will become an integral part of the organic compendium.

Makes a player wonder why the original creators keeps leaving just enough high tech around to cause trouble. The catalyst isn't capable of such skull duggery..[/quote]

lease use the quote abit better
sorry but this is sterile theorycrafting.

I blame the one that is in charge of the genocide, I don't know his creators enough, only that they disapproved the catalyst. t maks more sense to think te catalyst is responsible...

S what, the civ tha created the reapers culdn' program an AI right, when the quarians created the geth as peaceful beings without even trying ? Yeah right.
uit excusing him, and i'll use "he" if i want to, afterall h decided to appear as a brat.

Oh yes we can destoy that monstruosity andno it won't come bck to haunt us.
And no the catlyst doesn't do ou dirty work, no one was ever ok wth what he did.

I look in the mirror and i see it clearly, the catalyst is an abomination that deserve  to go to hell. And he doesn't do my dirty work

Tech doesn't hae to be implemented in anyone against their will. Forcing it "because it's inevitable" is criminal

[/quote]

The game is theory crafting. We've no other data to work with..

I think you're getting to emotionally attached to the situation as it relates decision.

The fact of the matter is we force it upon ourselves via it's very utilization. That's the "inivetble" part.

That being "criminal" is up for another, different debate..lol

We cannot destroy the technological monstrosity, it's already part of our being. We have to adapt to it, as it's our fate as being evolved to the point of it's invention.

The catalyst does our dirty work when it destroys, thats it's function. We/organics created it for that purpose, inadvertently. It was an accident of nature. The nature of organics to create stuff to advance/adapt.

Thats the cycle/pattern.

The question? How do we talk our way out of the conundrum?

[Jonata]

So now peopel are starting threating Synthesis like a drug?

Give these boards another couple of months and I'll be arrested, guilty of being an "illegal Synthesizer".

Modifié par Jonata, 21 août 2012 - 02:26 .

[Wayning_Star]

Jonata wrote...

So now peopel are starting threating Synthesis like a drug?

Give these boards another couple of months and I'll be arrested, guilty of being an "illegal Synthesizer".

Not in the sythesised MEU, it'd be legal there, well decriminalized to say the least..

[Wariyaka]

I see the concepts of Order -> Stagnation through Stability vs. Chaos -> Progress/Evolution through Conflict at the heart here.

Reapers are bio-mechanical constructs created to solve a problem but thier mechanical nature made them quite firm represantatives of Order, highly sofisticated but totaly stagnat, they just repeat thier cycle endlessly without any progress, without evolving.
Biological life is very prone to chaos and conflic as it's how it evolvs.
Total Order and total Chaos are both obvious undesirables, the desire is balance.
Syntesis is an idea for balance.

Unfortunetly it don't feel like a very good or well thought through idea. It comes out more as Reaper pipe dream than a serious solution and it feel way to much as a continuation of Order than an attemt at a new balance but I guess that can be argued. There are quite a few unknowns here but no wonder the Reaper God/Kid likes it

And for OP, yes you have my NO! only destruction feel like it have any place here.

[Brother Takka]

I would have no interest in playing a Mass Effect game where synthesis is the state that the universe is in. If we are all linked and know everything everyone else knows ....... What would the came be based on? I have a few ideas how the game would go, all are ones I would not want to play.

[Wayning_Star]

Nyoka wrote...

People worried about having their freedom of thought compromised... well, all you need to do is to fire a machine that changes our minds and make us support synthesis.

Hence the funky green beam..


(sorry, couldn't resist...)

It would be nice if the green beam were actually sythesis. Too bad about folks not understanding what it is in real time, not some green beam to poke fun at.. They might actually get an idea as to what to do about technological advance and it's long term risks vs benefits.

We've done took a bite out of the apple.. it's going down the 'pipes' as we banter. lol