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[Raphamon]

From reading some of the posts here it is clear that some people have no idea what tier lists are or how they work. Honestly guys, do some research before you jump up and put your fighting gloves on. Anybody who gets upset about the posting of tier lists has no real idea what tier lists are about.

I for one only look at tier lists because I find it interesting to see how characters are rated. In most games my characters are usually low to bottom tier characters, and that doesn't bother me in the least because I enjoy using those characters.

Here is a detailed explanation of what a tier list is and how it works. (The layout will look a little strange because this is taken from a text file. It is based on the video game TEKKEN TAG TOURNAMENT 2 for the PS3 and Xbox 360, but it applies to all games. The information is taken from multiple sources across the web.):

WARNING! WALL OF TEXT TO FOLLOW!

"=====
Tiers:
=====

In layman's terms a tier list is a list where all the characters in the game are
ranked from best to worst. It is determined by how good a character is in the game.
The tier list shows you how good each character is when he/she is taken to their
full potential. In other words the tier list shows you how good the character is
when you know absolutely everything about the character and can do everything of the
character with no trouble at all and never make any mistakes during matches. Again,
a tier list is a list that shows you how good a character is when that character is
taken to their maximum potential.

A Tier is a term used commonly within fighting game circles and tournaments to
describe a character's general success in tournaments and common battles of the
fighting game from which they hail. In some cases the general structure of the
tiers for a particular game are agreed upon by the player community, with only
slight variation. With other games, the tiers may be the subject of fierce
debate with strongly differing viewpoints. By their nature, tiers cannot be
regarded as pure fact, but ideally come about from educated opinions and
thoughtful observations supported by evidence as tournament results.

Tiers are not limited to characters in fighting games. The concept of tiers may
be applied to all other games in which players are allowed to choose from
characters, weapons, strategies, etc. Tiers may be used to describe how effectively
these choices accomplish the general goal of the particular game. It can be argued
that as it is very unlikely that a game is perfectly balanced, particularly complex
modern video games, that all games have tiers to an extent. Those who abide by this
thinking believe there are methods or choices that are inherently more efficient
or more effective than others. Just as in First person Shooters certain guns are
more efficient than others at taking out your enemies; and in racing games certain
cars are more efficient at winning races. Fighting games are similar in that
certain characters are more efficient at beating opponents.

The concept and controversy around tiers is mostly limited to competitive fighting
games, as their arcade and home console roots make them much less likely to be
patched. That is, if the creator realizes that they made a mistake in designing
a character who is too powerful, it is difficult to fix. This leads to characters
and tactics which can seem very radical and overpowering to a third party,
especially a gamer not familiar with the fighting game genre.


=========
Examples:
=========

Although it differs from game to game, the usual formation of the tier listing in
fighting games goes like this:

-Broken Characters:
Although not always used in tier listing, once in a while a character or characters
in a fighting game are given such an overwhelming advantage, that they are considered
"broken". Such characters may be labeled as being "God Tier." The main priority in a
fighting game is to keep all characters as balanced as possible, and a Broken character
is a character who is very distinctively unbalanced and almost unfair. For example,
Geese Howard in SNK vs Capcom chaos is considered broken because he has an easy to
execute combo which can potentially become inescapable and more often than not destroy
the opponent in one attack. Many SNK boss characters are notorious for regularly
being guilty of belonging in this category as well. In Soul Calibur III
(Japanese version), Sophitia is sometimes considered a broken character, so was toned
down for the US and PAL versions. Such characters are often banned from tournament play.
More examples of broken characters are: Shao Kahn from the Mortal Kombat games,
Alpha-152 from Dead Or Alive 4, Jinpachi Mishima and Steve Fox from Tekken 5.0.

-Top Tier:
Characters who have had the most success, and are often used to successful degrees.
Once in a while, a character who may be considered to have a little too much of
an advantage may be in this spot as well. Some games and/or people may refer to
this as "S" tier.

-High Tier:
Characters who have had a great deal of success, and are considered to have an
equal chance against any opponent. Some games and/or people may refer to this
as "A" tier.

-Middle Tier:
Characters who have had moderate success, and are used sparingly. They can be
used efficiently against most opponents. Some games and/or people may refer to
this as "B" tier.

-Lower Tier:
Characters who have been generally selected very rarely, so rarely that regardless
of the said character's success or failure, it still doesn't change their place
on the list. Some games and/or people may refer to this as "C" tier.

-Bottom Tier:
Characters who have more in-game disadvantages than advantages, to the point where
it is unfair. Although it is certainly possible to win with characters in this
section, said character and player will be very hard-pressed to win and will have
more going against them than for them. For example, in Tekken 5, the character of
Kuma is considered Bottom Tier. This is because while he may have a chance against
lower to middle tier characters, no matter how competently he's played it is
virtually impossible to find a distinct advantage against higher tier's when they
are played with equal skill due to his very risky moves that offer little return.
Some games and/or people may refer to this as "D" tier.

Some games might go as far as to have a "E" tier, which is often referred to as
"Garbage Tier". The characters in this tier are characters who are so bad that they
are nothing more than a joke. If you use a character from this tier and if you
play against people who are not beginners then you will find it virtually impossible
to win any of your matches.


==========
Controversy:
==========

Arguments about the existence (or non-existence) of tiers are commonplace among
gaming boards, where the general consensus among experienced players is that
tiers do indeed exist. (ie: choosing certain characters/weapons/skills over others will yield
better results for the user).

Tier listings are often scrutinized by players who misunderstand its purpose.
Many misinformed players mistake the Tier listings as a "Best Character" listing,
and that the intent is to say X character can not win against Y because X is high
tier and Y is low tier. This is not entirely true.

Given that X is a high tier character and Y is a low tier character, it is very
possible that a player using Y can beat a player using X. However, if both players
are of equal (read: EQUAL) skill, X will beat Y more often. Therefore, in order
to win consistently, the player using a lower tier character will need to work
harder and be more skilled than the player using a higher tier character. Basically
higher tier characters make it easier for you to win. They do NOT guarantee 100%
that you will beat your opponent. They just MAKE IT MUCH EASIER to beat your
opponent. If your opponent is much better skilled at the game than you then it
won't matter which character you choose you will still be beaten. TIER LISTS ONLY
COME INTO PLAY WHEN ALL PLAYERS ARE OF EQUAL SKILL. Don't think that just because
you chose the top ranking character you will now be able to sweep the floor with
everybody. There is always somebody out there more skilled than you. ALWAYS.

The influence of Tiers in play is also often misunderstood: in a well balanced game,
any effect of tiers will likely go unnoticed in low to mid level play, and low tier
characters may actually be perceived as being better than characters who are actually
much higher ranked. For example, if a low ranked character has an easy to use, fast,
and damaging mid-low-low-mid combo, which less skilled players often have difficulty
blocking, that character may be abused in low to mid level play. However, after
becoming more skilled, a player may notice that when blocked, the combo leaves you
open long enough for a damaging juggle or punishment move.


===============
More on tier ranks:
===============


-Top Tier (Also known as "S" tier)

Top Tier generally refers to any characters in a fighting game that has a clearly
distinct advantage over a majority of the other characters in the game, especially
in known fighting gamer circles where all characters from any game are categorized
according to their overall strengths. These advantages come in a few forms:

*Large majority of higher priority attacks.

*Easy, powerful combos (often repeatable into each other).

*Innate advantages over other characters (being resistant to certain attacks, etc.).

*Software glitches or bugs in combo engine that provide unfair or unbalanced
 advantages that are not readily accessible otherwise (i.e. bugs).

*Easy spammable moves (moves that can easily and quickly be repeaded into
 each other, for example: in Street Fighter some characters can shoot
 fireball after fireball after fireball after fireball with little to no
 delay).

*Less risk and more reward involved when performing these characters moves/combos/juggles.

*Much higher damage output than other characters.


These are all advantages that higher tier characters have over the rest of the characters
in the game.


============
Usage of tiers:
============

In hardcore fighting gamer circles, this is an often-discussed topic, especially
when it comes to who they would use in an organized tournament. These tournaments
generally are for the "best of the best" to show off their skills under pressure,
and having a top tier character, while not always, can give them an edge on their
opponent. If both players use the same character, it comes down to their individual
skills that determine the outcome. If both players are of equal skill then the one
who chooses the higher ranking character will have an edge over his opponent, and
his opponent will have to work harder for the win.

These tiers are generally broken into 3 subgroups (which can more specifically be
divided further if deemed too broad into such things as "near top" or "upper middle"):

*Top tier, which has been discussed.

*2nd (or Middle) tier.

*Bottom tier.

Middle tier is for well-balanced characters that don't have any real stand-out
characteristics, but can put up a good fight if both players are of equal skill.
Middle tier can also be sub-divided into Upper-mid, Mid-mid, and Low-mid tiers.
Upper Middle tier Characters are generally characters that are much better than
the others, but aren't enough to be dominate characters. In the end, though,
middle tier characters have a much harder time eliminating professional top-tier
players. Bottom tier characters have a decidedly large disadvantage in terms of their
usability, and are rarely used in tournaments. Such underdog characters have
very little chance of winning unless their user is a much higher skilled player than
the top tier user. Any fighting game since Street Fighter 2 on will have all
their usable characters grouped into these three generally, with top tier being
the most preferred.


*The following information is curtesy of Jim Mile*

========
Tier Lists:
========


In fighting games, a tier list is an ordering of the characters in the game to
reflect that some are "better" than others. Here I am going to
discuss what I believe are the important issues surrounding tiers. I am starting
with how tiers can be constructed.


-Tiers, Part 1 What do we mean by "better"?
==================================

This is the biggest single misunderstanding with tier lists, that people disagree
about what criteria should be used to rate characters. Here are the most common
interpretations of what a tier list should be based on, with pros and cons, and
my analysis for each.

1.) How easy a character is to use effectively:

Pros:
-Gives information to beginners about which characters they can have early success
with, against other beginners.

Cons:
-Fails to account for powerful but difficult-to-use characters, which are often the
ones used in high level play.

-Only applies to beginners.

My analysis:
This is the classic scrub interpretation of tiers. Beginners who lose to characters
with good, easy-to-perform moves complain that their opponent only used that character
because they are "top tier". When someone says that, they are using a limited
definition of tiers, which only applies to beginner level play. It encourages only
learning "tricks" to beat other beginners, rather than developing deeper strategies.
The kind of person who follows this definition of tiers is the kind who, as soon as
they play anyone who is not a beginner, is easily beaten by what they consider
"low tier" characters played to a high level.

2.) Mathematical analysis of everything in the game:

Every move (including combos) is simulated against every other in every possible
instance to construct a game-theoretic payoff matrix. Based on the number of
instances in which a particular move "wins out", and how much damage it deals
when it does, characters can be ordered according to the power and usability
of the moves they possess.

Pros:
-Not limited by the skill of the player. It judges how good a character is based
on what is possible, which means that, no matter how skilled players get, the tier
list remains valid.

Cons:
-Most games are too complex to be mathematically modelled with current
computer technology. Although the time limit on rounds means that there are
only finite possibilities within a match (this is important, as it means that
wider strategies can be covered in the matrix, rather than just moves and combos),
there are still far too many to consider them all and apply sophisticated game
theory in order that probability weighting can be placed on strategies.

-Necessitates assumptions about reaction times which will either be unrealistic
(e.g. perfect reactions, so counters can always be made) or will model reaction
times (e.g. by probability), failing to account for the variance in human reaction
speeds and the element of human pattern recognition/mind games (also interpreted
as "yomi" - knowing the opponent's mind¹).

-Human execution is imperfect. The analysis may yield very effective (possibly 100%
win-forcing) strategies which require such perfect execution that no human could
consistently perform them. If tiers are to be more than an academic and theoretical
exercise then this is important. Similarly, if a strategy relies upon calculation
of very precise probabilities in-game, then it may not be applicable to human emulation.

My analysis:
It's technically interesting, and will be particularly interesting if one day it is
straightforward to write programs to play fighting games, but from a practical point
of view it is impossible to form a complete set of data and analysis method to give
a cast iron tier list. It is useful for discussion of specific (common) occurrences
within the game though.

3.) Success in major tournaments:

Pros:
-Transparent. Subjectivity is eliminated in favour of statistics, and the data is
easy to analyse.

-Relates character usage directly to winning - the aim of the game - rather than
speculated causes of success.

Cons:
-Does not tell us why certain characters are better than others, just that they are.

My analysis:
This is the clearest way to define tiers, and the one to which most subscribe at
the highest level. A tier list is just that: a list, not an explanation. If you
want to know which characters are best at the top level then you look at which
ones are winning at the top level. Simple.

4.) Specific "good" moves and strategies:

Analysing different characters' moves (e.g. Nina's oki in Tekken 5, Yun's Genei Jin
in Third Strike, Cable's beam in Marvel VS Capcom 2), and explaining why they are
powerful.

Pros:
-Explains why characters are good.

Cons:
-Can be subjective.

My analysis:
I rate this method highly, because it gives justification to the list, which none
of the others do. In the mathematical model, the number crunching will be so
complicated that the meaning is impossible to understand in straightforward terms,
and going purely by tournament results gives no idea as to why certain characters
are good - it could just be that no-one has bothered to learn the others, or the
tournaments are dominated by a few very skilful players who like certain characters
but would be even better if they switched to other characters.


My opinion of what tier lists should be:
==============================

I think that construction of a tier list should be primarily based on tournament
results. However, the list should be supplemented with WHY these particular characters
are good, by analysing what the best players do with them and identifying the "good"
strategies, so that some actual understanding can be obtained as to what makes a
character in the game "better" than another. This means that the fashion element²
can be reduced. Analysing "why?" also allows more refinement in the list, so that
after the tournament data has given a rough grouping of top 3, second tier,
third tier, ..., bottom tier, there can be some discussion, conjecture, and
theorizing about where within the group each character lies. The mathematical,
theory-fighting approach comes in handy when trying to find out what makes a
character good because the common strategies can be analysed and examined with
frame data and game-engine experiments. This can also lead to finding flaws in
certain strategies, which shakes up tournaments and further advances the tier list.

Just take a look at the latest Japanese Third Strike tier list. I'm pretty sure it uses
that kind of analysis, though I might have a bash at deciphering the Japanese on the
site to see if I can gain any insights into their tier construction methods.

One strand I hope has been clear in this entry is that tiers are about high level
play, the character advantages that are in play at the very highest, world class
level. In my next entry I want to talk a bit about how this is misinterpreted by
many gamers, who are not playing at the kind of level to which tiers have any
real relevance.


*¹ See: www.sirlin.net/archive/yomi-layer-3-knowing-mind-of-the-opponent/

*² The "fashion" element: where lots of characters are more popular to start with,
meaning more of those ones are seen in the later stages of the tournament.



Tiers, Part 2: Eight Bullet Points:
=========================

*Many games still have the potential for a skilful player to use a particular
character in an original way that changes the game forever.

*People have individual play styles. Learning a character that suits your style
will get you further than just picking a top 3 character because they're supposed
to be the best. In other words you will do better with a character that fits with
your play style than you would by just choosing a character because he/she is
top tier. (Just because a character is top tier does not mean that YOU will
do well with said character and just because a character is bottom tier does
not mean that YOU will do badly with him/her).

*The ubiquity of supposedly top tier characters often means their strategies
and "tricks" are well known, which can give you the element of surprise if you use
a less popular character.

*Tiers can change over time because the more time people invest in the game the
more they learn how to deal with certain situations.

*Low level players whine constantly about tiers, but professional players rarely
use the word. Pros tend to refer to specific strategies and moves, rather than
generalities.

*Any character played well is good enough to compete among friends. Outside of
pro-level, anyone discussing tiers is just looking for excuses.

*Tier lists aren't based on or influenced by "real world matches". They are made
to represent the winning capability of characters in relation to each other. They
are based strictly on the tools of characters, not the skill of the players. (Tiers
are based on what the character can do. Not on what the player can do. There have been
many people in the past who have taken low level characters and done extremely well
against any opponents. Having said that you should also keep in mind that, to a certain
extent, you are limited by what your character can do, and the tier list shows you what
your character can do).

*Tier lists are just a listing of which characters have the best tools to compete in
the game. It's saying that given two equally skilled higher level players a certain
character will have more wins given a set. Yes, it is possible for a D tier player
to win over a S tier player but it is very hard for D tier to put pressure on
S tier - because S tier has more and better tools to win. As players become
more experienced with the game and the characters they will learn to better understand
and use the tools given to each character, thus becoming better with a character that
they previously were not good with and this will cause the tier list to constantly
change. For example there might be a new tactic that people figure out with a C tier
that would make him/her a lot better and this would cause him/her to go up in the tier list.
In other words the tier list is constantly changing as the players become more
experienced with the game and learn new tactics with each character. You should also
be aware that patches to the game can also cause changes to the tier list. For
example the game developers might notice that a certain character has a combo or
move or strategy that is way too easy to exploit and loop over and over again and
so they might bring out a patch to fix that. Thus effectively bringing that character
down in the Tier List. So be sure to check back for updates to the tier list
whenever a new patch is released for the game.


One final note about tier lists:
=======================

Having read through all that don't worry if you still don't fully understand the
concept of tier lists. Just keep these things in mind:

-When facing an opponent who is better at the game than you then tier lists do NOT
matter. No matter what character you pick if your opponent is better at the game
than you then they will beat you. In certain situations choosing a higher tier
character might give some players a slight advantage, but usually no matter what
happens the better player is usually the one who will always win the match.

-When facing an opponent who is not as good at the game as you then tier lists do NOT
matter. If your opponent is not as good at the game as you then it really does not
matter who they pick, they still won't be able to beat you.

-When facing an opponent who is just as good at the game as you then tier lists DO
matter. In this case the winner of most matches will come down to who picks the
better character. If you both pick the same character then it all comes down to
skill and a little bit of luck. However, the problem with this is that not everyone
is skilled with the same characters. If you and your opponent are of equel skill
in the game but you favor different characters then tier lists CAN have an impact
on gameplay.

-If you want to win tournaments then it is recommended that you stick with a
top tier character.

-All of the top players around the world tend to stick to the top tier characters.

-Characters that are in the top tier do make it easier for you to win your matches,
but they do not guarantee that you will win for sure. They just make it a little
easier for you to be able to win.

-Every character has a weakness. Think of it like Rock, Paper, Scissors. Rock beats
Scissors but Paper beats Rock while Scissors beats Paper. It's the same with characters
in a fighting game. There will be some characters that your character is good at beating
and there will be some characters that your character has trouble beating. It's up
to the player to learn and adapt to their opponent.

-Tier Lists can change dramatically with newer iterations of the game. For example:
in Tekken 5 the character Kazuya Mishima is Top Tier, and is in fact one of the
top 5 characters in the entire game. In Tekken 6 Kazuya Mishima has fallen down
all the way to the lower part of the Middle Tier. This is due to all the changes
made to the game engine in Tekken 6. So just because your chosen character might
be Top Tier now does not mean he/she will still be Top Tier in the next game. Be
on the lookout for that.

-In games which have a team mode things become a lot more complicated. When playing as a
team if you choose the right teammates it can help out any weaknesses your
character might have. By choosing the correct partners you can give your own
character a boost and he/she might be higher on the tier list with the correct partners.
In other words choosing the correct teammates can boost that low tier character of yours
up to a middle tier character if you use your team correctly."

[valium]

Krogan Soldier is at least A, I would argue S.

[darkpassenger2342]

that is the longest post ive ever seen.

[Ankarah]

It greatly depends on the faction you're fighting against for some kits,

for example, D-tier N7 Slayer with phase disruptor talents is very good against the Cerberus but B-tier Novaguards are less than useless against the Collectors.

Modifié par Ankarah, 18 novembre 2012 - 10:28 .

[Doni]

Not sure why people might complain that their favourite isn't high on the tier.

If anything, you look more skilled if you regularly play (and do well at) a low-tier character.

[joker_jack]

[MaxShine]

What a waste of time...