280 réponses à ce sujet

[deuce985]

Eh? I don't really look at it that way. Most games are predefined in some way.

The way I look at it, these type of games are rare these days. So, even though Bioware takes a little control away, I still feel like it's my character. Mostly.

I do agree though. Bioware needs to keep giving us more control over our experience. I don't think it can be denied they're taking more away in each game, which is a disturbing trend.

Modifié par deuce985, 21 août 2012 - 06:10 .

[LinksOcarina]

deuce985 wrote...

Eh? I don't really look at it that way. Most games are predefined in some way.

The way I look at it, these type of games are rare these days. So, even though Bioware takes a little control away, I still feel like it's my character. Mostly.

I do agree though. Bioware needs to keep giving us more control over our experience. I don't think it can be denied they're taking more away in each game, which is a disturbing trend.

Define taking more away?

[Sylvius the Mad]

As long as I can define and control the PC's personality, I'll be fine.

DA2 did not let me do that.

[Vox Draco]

Elfman wrote...

As much as I like her, I don't want Jennifer Hale to voice the Inquisitor... Or at least her FemShep voice.

Since I didn't like the acting of MaleShep and as a City Elf, I couldn't bear Hawke to be voiced by the same guy who voiced Vaughn, so history tells me I might have to be female Inquisitor too. And having such a "tough and hardy" voice would be bad for characterisation.

Well, maybe you should listen to Jennifer Hale's work in Diablo3. She is doing Leah there, and very different to the "rough'ntough" acting of Shepard. Much softer, more innocent, as the character there should be...in fact I almost didn't notice it was Hale at first...

But it doesn't have to be Jennifer, there are plenty of voice-over-actors just as skilled, she was merely an example

[Potato Cat]

Vox Draco wrote...

Elfman wrote...

As much as I like her, I don't want Jennifer Hale to voice the Inquisitor... Or at least her FemShep voice.

Since I didn't like the acting of MaleShep and as a City Elf, I couldn't bear Hawke to be voiced by the same guy who voiced Vaughn, so history tells me I might have to be female Inquisitor too. And having such a "tough and hardy" voice would be bad for characterisation.

Well, maybe you should listen to Jennifer Hale's work in Diablo3. She is doing Leah there, and very different to the "rough'ntough" acting of Shepard. Much softer, more innocent, as the character there should be...in fact I almost didn't notice it was Hale at first...

But it doesn't have to be Jennifer, there are plenty of voice-over-actors just as skilled, she was merely an example

I know she does lots of voices. Apparently she played some of the more recent Disney incarnations of Cinderella. Baffled me at first . I was just saying, I wouldn't really want a rough'n'tough voice.

[deuce985]

LinksOcarina wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

Eh? I don't really look at it that way. Most games are predefined in some way.

The way I look at it, these type of games are rare these days. So, even though Bioware takes a little control away, I still feel like it's my character. Mostly.

I do agree though. Bioware needs to keep giving us more control over our experience. I don't think it can be denied they're taking more away in each game, which is a disturbing trend.

Define taking more away?

Just a couple things right off the top of my head - the dream sequences in Mass Effect 3 and the banter in Dragon Age 2. In DA2, my character responded based on a series of choices I made in the game. But how did it know if I wanted a more sarcastic or softer response? It didn't. It just assumed I did based on other choices I made in the game.

Personally, those things didn't bother me as much as some other people. I saw my Shepard as being mentally fragile with grief anyway. I mostly do one set defined personality on my characters too. in DA2, I made a **** character first. All his responses were red. Then I made a sarcastic. etc. The banter part didn't bother me on those characters. But when I made a character more like myself -- who tried to look at everything objectively -- it was a mess.

They have a lot of examples where DA2 took away more player agency than DA:O. Less outcomes in situations, less dialogue options, etc.

While some of that is minor to me, it eventually adds up to being a BIG thing. Bioware shouldn't be moving away from giving the players more choice. They should be moving to give us more in our interactive experience. The most popular games out today are LOADED with player agency. Players don't want Bioware pushing everything down a predetermined path, they want variety and options. DA2 is a far more linear experience than DA:O is.

Modifié par deuce985, 21 août 2012 - 06:33 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Elfman wrote...

As much as I like her, I don't want Jennifer Hale to voice the Inquisitor... Or at least her FemShep voice.

It really bothers me that every one of my female characters has the same voice, and that every one of my male characters has the same voice.

That is a huge barrier for me, and I don't think I'll be able to truly embrace these games until that problem goes away.

If I make two different characters, I want them to be different.  Sharing a voice really doesn't help with that.

[Mr Fixit]

deuce985 wrote...

Just a couple things right off the top of my head - the dream sequences in Mass Effect 3 and the banter in Dragon Age 2.

On DA2 banter I agree. Don't put words in my mouth, please.

As for ME3 dream sequences, I was OK with them. They were dreams, after all, beyond our full control. It also seems to me they were BioWare's (later discarded, obviously) attempt to show Shepard being subtly indoctrinated. A terrible shame they didn't follow through with that idea.

[Mr Fixit]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

It really bothers me that every one of my female characters has the same voice, and that every one of my male characters has the same voice.

That is a huge barrier for me, and I don't think I'll be able to truly embrace these games until that problem goes away.

If I make two different characters, I want them to be different.  Sharing a voice really doesn't help with that.

Although I'm more forgiving to voiced PCs, I am in agreement with you. Two things, however, help with that, at least where I'm concerned.

1. English isn't my native language. Therefore, I don't have such strong mental associations that I presume native speakers have with regards to dialects based on location, social class, upbringing, etc. For example, I've read that some people have big problems reconciliating Boulton's more mannered British accent with their version of Hawke. I do note his accent, but it doesn't present a role-playing barrier. I'd probably be much less forgiving if an inappropriate accent was done in my native language.

2. I rarely replay games. Maybe once, if at all. Therefore, "voice fatigue" or breaking of immersion isn't as likely to happen.

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Elfman wrote...

As much as I like her, I don't want Jennifer Hale to voice the Inquisitor... Or at least her FemShep voice.

It really bothers me that every one of my female characters has the same voice, and that every one of my male characters has the same voice.

That is a huge barrier for me, and I don't think I'll be able to truly embrace these games until that problem goes away.

If I make two different characters, I want them to be different.  Sharing a voice really doesn't help with that.

Agreed. That is why I was able to do one playthrough with a Male Diplomatic Mage Hawke, struggled through a second playthrough with a Female Rogue Sarcastic Hawke and could NOT get through a third playthrough of a Male Warrior Aggressive Hawke. Horrible warrior combat aside, the complete lack of choice and the same voice was too boring. Plus, only two LIs I would bother with (I hated Anders and Fenris) means that after Isabela and Merrill, there was nothing else to do, aside from just play the same game again. I, on the thre hand, played and completed all seven origins in DA:O (the Mage origins twice) and romanced every character, males included for my female playthroughs. 

Bit off topic, I apologize. I do wholeheartedly agree that voicing he PC brings way more barriers to replayabilty than it brings enjoyment to the first playthrough. 

[wright1978]

JasonPogo wrote...

 Ok so I don't personaly know where the cut off is for this. But I hope Bioware will find it in DA3.  I just felt like Hawke was biowares character and not mine.  Alot of people here use Origins and voice acting as the exuse why.  But I don't hink thats it.  I mean in Mass Effect 1 i always felt it was my Sheperd.  There was enogh there to make Sheperd feel as though I had agency over him/her.  However Mass Effect 3 is a perfect example of the flip side of that coin.  In ME3 Sheperd was now Biowares character and I as the player was just along for the ride.  So like I said I don't know where that happy middle ground is that makes us as players feel the character is ours but I really need the MC of DA3 to feel that way.  Otherwise I might lose any intrist in the DA world wich would be a shame since ai do love the lore Gaider and team have built up around it.....

I found Hawke just about passable and ME1 and ME2 good.
Your completely right about the horrific defined  characterisation in ME3.
Really hope dragon age 3 will stay true to more of a player characterised protaganist.

[Rawgrim]

wetnasty wrote...

 Then make your own game. 

Yeah, and if you go to arestaurant and end up finding a rat in your food: don`t complain. go home and make your own food....

[Sylvius the Mad]

Mr Fixit wrote...

Although I'm more forgiving to voiced PCs, I am in agreement with you. Two things, however, help with that, at least where I'm concerned.

1. English isn't my native language. Therefore, I don't have such strong mental associations that I presume native speakers have with regards to dialects based on location, social class, upbringing, etc. For example, I've read that some people have big problems reconciliating Boulton's more mannered British accent with their version of Hawke. I do note his accent, but it doesn't present a role-playing barrier. I'd probably be much less forgiving if an inappropriate accent was done in my native language.

Imagine if Boulton had voiced Shepard.  Shepard would have been quite different.  In fact, Boulton's voice would have worked really well for my vision of Shepard.  Sadly, Mark Meer's voice didn't, and I was never able to endure MaleShep's voice for more than a few minutes.

Similarly, I thought FemShep's voice was terrific, but LadyHawke's voice was too high-pitched and delicate.

But either way, only one playthrough works and then that voice is ruined for all future characters.

2. I rarely replay games. Maybe once, if at all. Therefore, "voice fatigue" or breaking of immersion isn't as likely to happen.

Replaying games the reason I play them in the first place.  The first playthrough is a sort of benchmark, and then the rest are experiments to see what different outcomes I can get (both in terms of any branching narrative, and in terms of character development).  For example, I never imagined how character-changing an event the Fade could be in DAO until my third character, when the Fade completely changed how he saw himself (to his detriment - it made him over-confident and he soon died).

Playing a game only once is, I think, a waste of my time.

[Mr Fixit]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Imagine if Boulton had voiced Shepard.  Shepard would have been quite different.  In fact, Boulton's voice would have worked really well for my vision of Shepard.  Sadly, Mark Meer's voice didn't, and I was never able to endure MaleShep's voice for more than a few minutes.

Similarly, I thought FemShep's voice was terrific, but LadyHawke's voice was too high-pitched and delicate..

Never played FemShep, though many people insist Hale is great. Perhaps I should try it someday. Agree on female Hawke. There is something very off-putting in her voice; I can't stand it.

Replaying games the reason I play them in the first place.  The first playthrough is a sort of benchmark, and then the rest are experiments to see what different outcomes I can get (both in terms of any branching narrative, and in terms of character development). 

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to replay games I enjoy, and for similar reasons (narrative and different characters). Problem is, those games tend to be rather long. RPGs, strategies, 4X games, etc. And frankly, I'm not that much of a computer person in the first place. I'd really, really do other things than spend countless thousands of hours replaying the same freaking games. I do have to watch things like Babylon 5 or The Wire, or go get my nephews from kindergarten, or drink some coffee out in the open while the weather's nice. A Dance with Dragons won't read itself, you know? Oh, yeah, there's work too.  

[Sylvius the Mad]

Work? Oh, right, the thing I'm supposed to be doing when I'm arguing with people here.

[Sanunes]

One thing I would like to add is that a voice protagonist is something that is required for I couldn't play Dragon Age: Origins because the amount of text and with the font and size of the text induced headaches and I stopped playing, the only way I beat the game is I had my brother playing it and he gave me reports on what was happening. I really don't want to play a game like that again.

[Realmzmaster]

Mr Fixit wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

Just a couple things right off the top of my head - the dream sequences in Mass Effect 3 and the banter in Dragon Age 2.

On DA2 banter I agree. Don't put words in my mouth, please.

As for ME3 dream sequences, I was OK with them. They were dreams, after all, beyond our full control. It also seems to me they were BioWare's (later discarded, obviously) attempt to show Shepard being subtly indoctrinated. A terrible shame they didn't follow through with that idea.

Dream sequences were used in BG1 with the Bhaalspawn. So it is not the first time that Bioware has used dreams with the PC.

[Mr Fixit]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Work? Oh, right, the thing I'm supposed to be doing when I'm arguing with people here.

Wish I could do that. My envy burns hot with all the energy a blue supergiant releases when going supernova.

[Realmzmaster]

Sanunes wrote...

One thing I would like to add is that a voice protagonist is something that is required for I couldn't play Dragon Age: Origins because the amount of text and with the font and size of the text induced headaches and I stopped playing, the only way I beat the game is I had my brother playing it and he gave me reports on what was happening. I really don't want to play a game like that again.

That comes down to accessibility. There should have been a way to change both font and font size. I believe there are mods that do it, but it should have been included by the developers in the game. I am a firm believer that as much accessibility should be included in a game as possible.

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Work? Oh, right, the thing I'm supposed to be doing when I'm arguing with people here.

Agruing? No I see it as a friendly discussion between people with different views. I prefer a civil discussion to an agrument. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Sanunes wrote...

One thing I would like to add is that a voice protagonist is something that is required for I couldn't play Dragon Age: Origins because the amount of text and with the font and size of the text induced headaches and I stopped playing, the only way I beat the game is I had my brother playing it and he gave me reports on what was happening. I really don't want to play a game like that again.

That comes down to accessibility. There should have been a way to change both font and font size. I believe there are mods that do it, but it should have been included by the developers in the game. I am a firm believer that as much accessibility should be included in a game as possible.

AGREED! I don't know what in the WORLD developers are thinking with the text size of dialogue, but they have completely lost their minds. 

I am a console player with perfect 20/20 vision, a 46" HD flat screen as my gaming tv and sit on a couch about seven feet from the TV. And it almost takes a pair of binoculars to read text in Dragon Age, Skyrim or DE:HR! I can't imagine that people with vision issues have any chance at all in reading this garbage. I understand games are designed Ina computer five inches from the programmers face, but seriously... do they not realize people don't play a foot away from their TVs? This still apies for PCs obviously, but for console games, I just find it mind boggling. 

[Darkin30]

I have no problem with a voiced protagonist, thing is hawk's voice actor was just, not good, male and female. Bioware should give the lead role to Grey DeLisle, my favorite voice actress by far.

[kellyofthemagi]

Ok, I'm gonna put in my 2 cents, aint worth much anyway these days. I know Bioware wants to give us all a good game. They have been listening to us, but they are not going to be able to please everyone. I know they are looking at games that are doing really well right now (Skyrim) for one. A sleeper they need to check is Kingdoms of Amular Rekkoning if they havn't yet. The open world games. DA open world awesome. I have total faith in the DA writing team. I've heard them say in interview they don't plan on stopping at DA3 so why would they attempt giving us a poor game if they plan on making more. Hears my peddy request though, give us ladies a LI that resembles Jason Mamoa!!!! HOT

[Cimeas]

Look at the statistics. Less than half of players finished DA2 ONCE, it's not worth it for them to redo all the voice acting just for a small minority of players. I replayed both games too, but I accept I am the rare case.

As for Hawke's posh voice, I'm sorry, but let me tell you if he had the voice of your average council estate resident in South London (or Glasgow for that matter) there would be many times more complaints, let alone the fact that most Americans wouldn't be able to understand him. Better to use a standard British accent, and to be fair Hawke comes from a noble family anyway, so he would talk in an upper-class manner.

Finally, voice acting for the protagonist can be good. It doesn't matter if there is or isn't a set main character, it's what you do with them that matters. As long as you can make the big decisions, build friendships and romances the way you want to, and decide whether or not to actually accept quests (ahem Dragon Age 2 auto-accept) I'm happy.

And when you think back, I think some of Hawke's dialogue was charming, spontaneous and occasionally beautifully sarcastic. If the game paused every 2 minutes of walking and I had to pick a dialogue option, the humour wouldn't be there, the game would feel broken up, and I would be annoyed because I want to get to my destination.

Bioware needs to make a decision. Either go backwards and return to a silent protagonist, or go all out and create a 'male Hawke' and a 'female Hawke' (or whoever the next protagonist is) and give them a personality. Obviously we should be able to change and influence that, but at least it's there as a base so we can actually roleplay because we know who our character is, rather than the awkward in-between now, where we have bland voice-acted characters.