56 réponses à ce sujet

[Rabid Rooster]

a12boom wrote...

It would be a STUPID move to not let us choose our race.

That has become BioWare's trademark, "Stupid Moves", just look at DA2 and ME3.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

It will be one of the deciding factors for me, if I'm to ever bother with the franchise again to begin with. If there is no humans/elves/dwarves selection, then that speaks volumes for where their development process is headed (console territory).

[zyntifox]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

It will be one of the deciding factors for me, if I'm to ever bother with the franchise again to begin with. If there is no humans/elves/dwarves selection, then that speaks volumes for where their development process is headed (console territory).

Excuse me? Console territory? Me and my friends all play the Dragon age franchise on the PS3 and Xbox and we all enjoy DA:O a lot more than DA2. And that is not because DA2 had recycled areas, awful combat or lackluster story but because DA:O is a true WRPG while DA2 is a interactive game. Bioware isn't going into console territory, they are going into a different "genre territory".

[Corto81]

Cstaf wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

It will be one of the deciding factors for me, if I'm to ever bother with the franchise again to begin with. If there is no humans/elves/dwarves selection, then that speaks volumes for where their development process is headed (console territory).

Excuse me? Console territory? Me and my friends all play the Dragon age franchise on the PS3 and Xbox and we all enjoy DA:O a lot more than DA2. And that is not because DA2 had recycled areas, awful combat or lackluster story but because DA:O is a true WRPG while DA2 is a interactive game. Bioware isn't going into console territory, they are going into a different "genre territory".

I agree, I enjoyed Dark Souls immensely, for example, but despite it being on PS3, it felt like a deep, proper, challenging, immersive RPG.

There's no question the controls are different and somewhat limiting (espeically if you have a party-oriantated game), but the fact that a game is on PS3 or XBOX doesn't mean it can't be a wonderful, deep RPG.

DA:O, Skyrim, Witcher 2, Dark Souls... All have console ports and are wonderful RPGs.

DA2 fails not in "consolizing" the game, but moving it into a streamlined genere, opting to ignore their normal audience (the people BW got big on, the RPG crowd) and trying to appeal to the CoD/etc type gamers (which also failed because "CoD crowd" play... well, CoD).

[Stronglav]

No races,kids.
We play Inquisitor in the next game.And he is human.

[cindercatz]

I hope they change their minds on the race selection. It's a huge, big, giant deal for replayability (changes the player's outlook and motivations, colors everything you do, nevermind the differing cutscenes, dialogue, etc.) and world immersion. If I only ever played a human in Dragon Age 1&2, all the politics and social interplay in the world they built wouldn't mean much to me. Because DA:O encouraged me to play on all sides, I can see and appreciate the PoV of every character in the game, and it's a much richer experience. The ability to fully play that whole range of perspectives was just gone from DA2. If there's no race selection, it'll be gone from DA3, and that hurts everything good about the franchise just that much.

Modifié par cindercatz, 26 août 2012 - 02:23 .

[Todd23]

Agreed.

[jbrand2002uk]

I really dont care since race choice didnt make any worthwhile difference in DAO other than some minor dialogue

[WardenWade]

They haven't dismissed playable races, or even origins, for DA3 and that gives me hope   Likewise, the races and being able to play them is one of the main things IMO that differentiates DA from other RPG series. It adds to the franchise IMO, and recent comments by the devs make it seem less challenging to implement than I myself had originally suspected. I hope to see this aspect, as well as a solid and well-developed story, in the next game.

Modifié par WardenWade, 28 août 2012 - 01:50 .

[Plaintiff]

dheer wrote...

Faerunner wrote...
I'm holding onto desperate, cynical hope...

Same here. I'd love to play anything but another generic human.

Because dwarves and elves aren't generic?

I couldn't care less about race selection, I don't feel it adds much to the gaming experience either way.

[Zanallen]

I really don't care if we have racial choice or not. It basically amounts to just flavor and it is something I can take or leave with no problem.

[Fast Jimmy]

LOL I think it is pretty funny that the same people in this thread who are saying it is barely important to play a different race since it is only a few dialogue lines difference are, in another thread, saying it is vitally important to play as a mage in DA2, despite it only being a few dialogue lines different.

In fact, give the origins stories in DA:O are worth an hour or two of extra gameplay, the racial choice in DA:O is MILES more different than the class selection of DA2.

[bloodmage13]

I totally agree with you guys. I totally want to play a non-human too but I highly dought that we will get the chance. Just consider the fact that Bioware is resisting putting female Kossith in the game and they excluded female dwarves from DA2.

[FaWa]

Wouldn't it be funny if FemDwarves went from not existing to being playable?

But they are a bigger tragedy, imo. Definitely one of the biggest problems with DA2, amongst many many other things

[WardenWade]

Faerunner wrote...

WardenWade wrote...

They haven't dismissed playable races, or even origins, for DA3 and that gives me hope  [...] It adds to the franchise IMO, and recent comments by the devs make it seem less challenging to implement than I myself had originally suspected.

If this is indeed the case, then I am very happy to know it. I hope they give race options more thought in the future, if they haven't already. Do you have links to these recent comments by the devs, per chance?

I haven't been able to find the direct link, but Gaiden96 at http://social.biowar...8386/1#13308089 had reposted a month ago the quote I was thinking of:

 "While we haven't yet discussed the inclusion of player race options, I will point out that if the assumption is that race options are primarily limited by VO that's incorrect. It plays a part, certainly, particularly with the already-established accents, but the difficulty with player races primarily relates to the amount of model variations required and to cinematics (height differences between the races).

None of these are impossible to overcome, provided we believe the expense is worth the pay-off. Obviously there are those among you who feel this is so (and since the expense is the same for you, it must seem like a no-brainer from your side of things), so we'll see".

I knew I should have bookmarked the thread I originally saw it mentioned in, Faerunner...I'm sorry, I'll keep digging and see if I can find it the thread Mr. Gaider originally posted this in, and the link.

Admittedly Mr. Gaider says the devs need to discuss this, but they--especially Mr. Gaider himself--continue to discuss the matter with us here, pointing out matters that do or don't affect race options as much as we thought   Voice acting may not be so much of an issue after all, and things like models/wireframes could conceivably be overcome as well, I hope (there will be NPCs of multiple races as it is, I imagine, and maybe that will help?).  I can only speak for myself but I choose to take that as a positive sign, or at least not a negative one  

There's a very real possibility DA3 will be human-only again, but then again maybe not, and at least making our voices heard we'll have done all we can to promote returning the option.  And given that DA3 is likely to involve multiple major crises, I like to think the powers that be in Thedas would be more willing in that kind of situation to take help from any race or origin willing to give it, whether it's considered germane or not. 

Only time will tell.  I hope like you, Faerunner, that races get a lot more thought from the devs.  And, as you mentioned, by now maybe they have?  Until they say definitively "no," in a Sten voice, I'll keep looking forward to it

Modifié par WardenWade, 28 août 2012 - 02:11 .

[FaWa]

I'm looking forward to making a celebration thread if it is a yes. I will be unbelivably happy.

[cindercatz]

@Faerunner
Well said.

I think, more than resources, maybe it's that they're not quite sure how to get everybody emoting to each other in a compelling way, during the cinematic conversation. You've got eye contact, first person perspective to consider (when the speaker is looking right at your character, above or below the speaker), the models have to not bleed into themselves or crump up into pixeljunk, there's the horizon and where that is relative to your perspective and what's on it... All I can say is it's worth it. You have other dwarf and elf characters, and Qunari, and how they play against the PC, as examples of all you need if the player is smaller or larger. The other thing I'd consider is a lot more perspective change during cinematic conversation and cutscenes, so you have a lot to pull from in any given scene to meet whatever challenges would pop up there. If there's too much empty horizon, well first, paint the sky a little more, but also allow for the camera to then jump to another perspective instead. Give the characters extra (natural) body languange for jumping out to wider angles when preferable. Have the character automatically, and in a visually appealing set of animations, reposition themselves to a couple of preprogrammed, preferred viewpoints, have characters speak from greater distance if needed, so nobody's craning their neck, etc.

It is a lot of work, sure, but all of it should be applicable to most every character in the game, to every area on the grid, and what you get in terms of storytelling and world immersion, and from replayability from a roleplaying gamer's perspective. My characters are going to act like I believe they would act, not how I would act. My characters minds can be changed given new information relative to them, and I have them respond to those stimuli that matter to them.

So if my character's a City Elf in Origins, and my other character's Dalish, and another is a Human Noble, and yet another's a Dwarven Noble, all of them have different roots, and so given any stimuli, all of them are going to act differently. I don't decide going into an Origins play that this character is going to pro-this and anti-that, I let the game tell me what my characters values are and go from there. Every choice I make builds the character, and every one of those choices is going to be different for each character because I can see the different place that each of them comes from.

In DA2, all of my Hawkes come from the same place, so the way I roleplay, all of them would really make the same decisions every time. I have to force myself to act against my character, to give them conflicting motivations, in order to get different outcomes.

That's a severe failing when set next to Origins. That's the one most serious failing in the game to me, honestly. That's the reason I've yet to complete my second playthrough when Dragon Age, for me, is all about replayability and the breadth of worldviews and social complexity and.. you get my drift. I could've looked beyond the stale encounter design (much improved now, still..), or the single issue drum narrative, if I had multiple perspectives to approach it from. It still wouldn't have been Origins because the scope was so narrow, but it would have been miles better had it allowed me to play with it with fresh eyes like Origins, rather that force me to ignore it to get anything new out of it.

[WardenWade]

Faerunner wrote...

Agreed. Thank you for posting Gaider's comment WardenWade. I've known about this post for a while, but I haven't been able to find it again or quote it properly, so thanks for pulling it up. Interestingly, I just got back from a separate BSN thread, where Fisto the Sexbot posted a quote by Brent Knowles. (I did some research on him and discovered he was apparently one of the lead designers and creative directors for BioWare for 10 years and worked on games such as Baulder's Gate 2, Neverwinter Nights, and Dragon Age: Origins, but I don't know as yet about DA2).

Apparently, in his review for the DA2 Demo, Brent Knowles had this to say about race selection in DA2:

"Not choosing race is a Very Bad Thing and has everything to do with cinematic limitations — characters with different heights and sizes are difficult to build cinematic conversation for — as well the choice impacts the amount of dialog that needs to be written. But aliens and fantasy races are cool. Humans are boring (except my kids and my wife and some of you… you know who you are)."

So, yeah. =)

What David Gaider and Brent Knowles say seem to line up. The main issue seems to be cinematics more than story, dialogue and voice-acting. (Or, at least, Gaider seems to imply so about the newest game). At least they both seem to believe that lack of race options is an issue despite the difficulties implementing it. With Gaider revealing that (in this particular game) the story and dialogue are not so much of an obstacle as cinematics, I hope more BioWare developers share this sentiment and the Powers That Be decide it's worth the time, money and work needed to bring the races back again.

No problem about the quote! It really struck me as well, Faerunner, as does the the comment by Mr. Knowles you quoted.  It's much in keeping with how I personally view race options.  I am a human every day; having the option to be something else is meaningful...and fun.

I agree that Gaider and Knowles' views are very similar indeed in tone regarding the cinematics issue, much more so than I realized.  Recognizing that races are important and need to be considered is very heartening IMO.  And, Mr. Gaider mentions that while models and cinematics are an issue to race options they aren't insurmountable   Hopefully the threads and discussion here on this topic, and many others, are giving the devs pause, as you mention, and showing them that to many it is worth the investment   

For my part, Thedas is a world I want to continue to explore in as many ways and from as many angles as possible in a single game, and in a personal way (ie, visiting an Arlathvhen as an elf, discovering Kal Sharok as a dwarf, perhaps attending Chantry services as a human, etc.)...playable races, origins and related features are IMO the best way to do that in DA3 and beyond.

WardenWade wrote... 

Only time will tell.  I hope like you, Faerunner, that races get a lot more thought from the devs.  And, as you mentioned, by now maybe they have?  Until they say definitively "no," in a Sten voice, I'll keep looking forward to it

Faerunner wrote...
Amen to that.

Thank you, Faerunner! 

Modifié par WardenWade, 29 août 2012 - 04:13 .

[WardenWade]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

I really truly hope that the choices will return for the race you can play/choose in DA3................

Loved the origins in DAO and the immersion it gave in the game, the lore that was explained while playing your character..

Still optimistic about the course BW will take in the next installment about freedom of choice.

Agreed!  I think learning about the different aspects of Thedas and its religions, society and politics, in a way that touched on the kind of character you were playing really brought the world to life.  The origins informed one another as well, as certain information might be revealed in a playthrough as one that shed light on events of another in a whole new way.  Together you discover the whole picture  

Modifié par WardenWade, 29 août 2012 - 12:57 .

[WardenWade]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

WardenWade wrote...

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

I really truly hope that the choices will return for the race you can play/choose in DA3................

Loved the origins in DAO and the immersion it gave in the game, the lore that was explained while playing your character..

Still optimistic about the course BW will take in the next installment about freedom of choice.

Agreed!  I think learning about the different aspects of Thedas and its religions, society and politics, in a way that touched on the kind of character you were playing really brought the world to life.  The origins informed one another as well, as certain information might be revealed in a playthrough as one that shed light on events of another in a whole new way.  Together you discover the whole picture  

As I like to do several playthroughs of a game, even more so if it could have different outcomes if the choice of race is an option, that could really add to the gaming experience.

Really would like to see environments through the eyes of the race living in them not just visiting them.

Absolutely!  The race/origin-specific boons in DA:O for example, and returning to your "home" or else encountering important NPCs from your origin, added a lot in my opinion.  I'd love to see varied consequences related to this myself , and I've seen many others here on the BSN hoping as well for multiple endings and outcomes.