318 réponses à ce sujet

[SnakeSNMF]

SnakeSNMF wrote...

Look, if every civillization based itself off of it's technology and then having it lead to a singularity, then civillizations like it would be at the apex and touch every part of the galaxy as we know it, and be near it. We would have much more evidence to prove for life itself, and we've seen no traces of it. It's very possible that civllizations that reach into space, never become true AI, but it is a necessary tool in their daily lives and how they handle things.

Synthesis is inevitable in arged technological singularities due to mathematics that may apply to reality and based on the assumption that we will all conform to one major system.

Humanity has been presented with ethics and personal morality to intrude onto the preventation of a possible singularity itself. Even if it was possible-- Which, y'know-- It is. It won't happen due so many prevailing point of views on how things work, overall paranoia, and general thinking. I would love for it to work, but it doesn't make sense as it appears in reality.

A synthesis is not the logical point of life, it is not the proper conclusion, it does not settle things. Synthesis ending for ME3 itself contradicts what we've been attempting to do the entire game. Bioware forgot that.

But, okay.

I hate to repost what I said, but nobody seems to be taking things into mine like this, and flying past the topics. So, here.

[Memnon]

dreman9999 wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

Both Legion and Mordin make great arguments against Synthesis in ME2 ...

No, there argument is ageinst accepting the catalyst offer of synthesis. Not synthesis in gerneral or synthesis on our terms.

I'll give you that - and in fact, I actually am not that opposed to the idea of Synthesis (in some form) in the way, distant future, especially in a science fiction setting. I just disagree with the "final step of evolution" claim. Species evolve as a product of their environment, and when looking at a space-faring civilization over the span of thousands of years, that environment will always be changing

Re: Synthesis, I've always maintained my primary issue is with the method of delivery, but that's a different discussion

Modifié par Stornskar, 22 août 2012 - 07:52 .

[Codename_Code]

Dreman, Javik tackles this way of thinking pretty hard with his story about the Zha'til, a race that picked synthesis on their own, but the Reapers enslaved them anyway, the Geth are also moving toward their pinnacle on their own but the Reapers insist in control them.

The kid scenario where all races get to the pinnacle and the reapers calm down is a lie, unless we are talking all races synthesis in the reapers terms. while the reapers exist they will only allow their synthesis, and their synth is not flowers and hugs as the powerpoint slides suggested, is mind and body slavery. First you need to get rid of the reapers, then we talk about synth deus ex: human revolution style.

Modifié par Codename_Code, 22 août 2012 - 08:04 .

[dreman9999]

Stornskar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

Both Legion and Mordin make great arguments against Synthesis in ME2 ...

No, there argument is ageinst accepting the catalyst offer of synthesis. Not synthesis in gerneral or synthesis on our terms.

I'll give you that - and in fact, I actually am not that opposed to the idea of Synthesis (in some form) in the way, distant future, especially in a science fiction setting. I just disagree with the "final step of evolution" claim. Species evolve as a product of their environment, and when looking at a space-faring civilization over the span of thousands of years, that environment will always be changing

Re: Synthesis, I've always maintained my primary issue is with the method of delivery, but that's a different discussion

Synthesis is an inevitality of evolution for beings that are dependent on tech. You need to understand the evolution is based on evironment and needs of the being. In the ME universe, the races environmnet make a demand on the use of tech and advancement of it. For beings not dependent on tech, synthesis is not the final stage evolution.

Synthesis become an eventually as long as the races of ME depend on tech. If they become independent of tech, that course is gone.

Modifié par dreman9999, 22 août 2012 - 08:07 .

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Oh, what was that? I couldn't hear BW's opinions over the awesome explosions that my destroy ending is giving off.

[dreman9999]

Codename_Code wrote...

Dreman, Javik tackles this way of thinking pretty hard with his story about the Zha'til, a race that picked synthesis on their own, but the Reapers enslaved them anyway, the Geth are also moving toward their pinnacle on their own but the Reapers insist in control them, what happened to the geths that accepted the beautiful reaper help ?. While the reapers exist they will only allow their synthesis, and their synth is not flowers and hugs as the powerpoint slides suggested, is mind and body slavery. First you need to get rid of the reapers, then we talk about synth deus ex: human revolution style.

The reaper are slave to ther programing. They only think in absoults. They have to control what they are protecting for them to be satified.
The repaer taking over the 
Zha'til is just an exaple of the reaper are blind to the fact they were never needed to solve the problem. That concept was something imposed on them by their creators.

[kobayashi-maru]

dreman9999 wrote...

kobayashi-maru wrote...

Here's the problem with you point. It already is happen in the ME universe with biotic implants,gray boxes, the quarians, and Shepard's implats.
You confusing the catalyst offer of synthesis with synthesis in general.
Evolution is based on evirnment vs needs of the being. Based on the envirment in ME it already started. It can only stop if an outside force or unknow element changes the course of evolution.

I see your point but still disagree, the implants, grey boxes and all the other tech is in the ME universe, but just because they have used various types of synthetic material to aid them, it is an aid not a complete retrofit for eternal life. The Shepard implants complicate it I admit but I go with the they will wear out Babylon 5 resurrection style in a number of years.

I just don't know it's really complicated argument, considering by the end of the trilogy the only certain thing is that billions of species have been decimated and the only one with the chance to quickly repopulate is the less techie Krogans. So does that alter the argument. I'm not sure but get your point and agree while disagreeing if that makes sense.

[dreman9999]

kobayashi-maru wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

kobayashi-maru wrote...

Here's the problem with you point. It already is happen in the ME universe with biotic implants,gray boxes, the quarians, and Shepard's implats.
You confusing the catalyst offer of synthesis with synthesis in general.
Evolution is based on evirnment vs needs of the being. Based on the envirment in ME it already started. It can only stop if an outside force or unknow element changes the course of evolution.

I see your point but still disagree, the implants, grey boxes and all the other tech is in the ME universe, but just because they have used various types of synthetic material to aid them, it is an aid not a complete retrofit for eternal life. The Shepard implants complicate it I admit but I go with the they will wear out Babylon 5 resurrection style in a number of years.

I just don't know it's really complicated argument, considering by the end of the trilogy the only certain thing is that billions of species have been decimated and the only one with the chance to quickly repopulate is the less techie Krogans. So does that alter the argument. I'm not sure but get your point and agree while disagreeing if that makes sense.

Then I have to be more clear...
Synthesis is an inevitality of evolution for beings that are dependent on tech. You need to understand the evolution is based on evironment and needs of the being. In the ME universe, the races environmnet make a demand on the use of tech and advancement of it. For beings not dependent on tech, synthesis is not the final stage evolution.

Synthesis become an eventually as long as the races of ME depend on tech. If they become independent of tech, that course is gone.

So to be more clear....Something like Dune where their is no dependence on tech but on spice ,synthesis with tech is not inevitable.

Some thing like ME where there is a huge dependence on tech, syntheis with tech is inevitable.

Modifié par dreman9999, 22 août 2012 - 08:12 .

[dreman9999]

SnakeSNMF wrote...

SnakeSNMF wrote...

Look, if every civillization based itself off of it's technology and then having it lead to a singularity, then civillizations like it would be at the apex and touch every part of the galaxy as we know it, and be near it. We would have much more evidence to prove for life itself, and we've seen no traces of it. It's very possible that civllizations that reach into space, never become true AI, but it is a necessary tool in their daily lives and how they handle things.

Synthesis is inevitable in arged technological singularities due to mathematics that may apply to reality and based on the assumption that we will all conform to one major system.

Humanity has been presented with ethics and personal morality to intrude onto the preventation of a possible singularity itself. Even if it was possible-- Which, y'know-- It is. It won't happen due so many prevailing point of views on how things work, overall paranoia, and general thinking. I would love for it to work, but it doesn't make sense as it appears in reality.

A synthesis is not the logical point of life, it is not the proper conclusion, it does not settle things. Synthesis ending for ME3 itself contradicts what we've been attempting to do the entire game. Bioware forgot that.

But, okay.

I hate to repost what I said, but nobody seems to be taking things into mine like this, and flying past the topics. So, here.

But there is a reason why somethinglike that did not happen. The organic/synthetic conflict.

[RinuCZ]

dreman9999 wrote...
1. http://masseffect.wi..._Amp_Interfaces

So my memory was correct. Thanks for the link.

dreman9999 wrote...
2.How can it be different subclasses if synthesis is alteration and implantation? Synthesis is not a merg. It's implatation.

Human + artificial arm = Human with a new arm (i.e. a human is still human, all his/her "old" parts are same, arm is still arm)
DNA + DNA's alteration = New DNA (i.e. DNA isn't same anymore)

There is a significant difference. I'm okay to leave this discussion at a respectful disagreement.

[Memnon]

dreman9999 wrote...

Stornskar wrote...


I'll give you that - and in fact, I actually am not that opposed to the idea of Synthesis (in some form) in the way, distant future, especially in a science fiction setting. I just disagree with the "final step of evolution" claim. Species evolve as a product of their environment, and when looking at a space-faring civilization over the span of thousands of years, that environment will always be changing

Re: Synthesis, I've always maintained my primary issue is with the method of delivery, but that's a different discussion

Synthesis is an inevitality of evolution for beings that are dependent on tech. You need to understand the evolution is based on evironment and needs of the being. In the ME universe, the races environmnet make a demand on the use of tech and advancement of it. For beings not dependent on tech, synthesis is not the final stage evolution.

Synthesis become an eventually as long as the races of ME depend on tech. If they become independent of tech, that course is gone.

We'll just have to agree to disagree here - because you are quoting the Catalyst who says that "To exceed those limits they must be allowed to evolve; they must, by definition, surpass their creators." I think that's a load of bunk, personally ...

[dreman9999]

RinuCZ wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. http://masseffect.wi..._Amp_Interfaces

So my memory was correct. Thanks for the link.

dreman9999 wrote...
2.How can it be different subclasses if synthesis is alteration and implantation? Synthesis is not a merg. It's implatation.

Human + artificial arm = Human with a new arm (i.e. a human is still human, all his/her "old" parts are same, arm is still arm)
DNA + DNA's alteration = New DNA (i.e. DNA isn't same anymore)

There is a significant difference. I'm okay to leave this discussion at a respectful disagreement.

For the last time...The new dna statement was rectoned in EC.
Added, an implaint into the very dna is still an implant.

[dreman9999]

Stornskar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Stornskar wrote...


I'll give you that - and in fact, I actually am not that opposed to the idea of Synthesis (in some form) in the way, distant future, especially in a science fiction setting. I just disagree with the "final step of evolution" claim. Species evolve as a product of their environment, and when looking at a space-faring civilization over the span of thousands of years, that environment will always be changing

Re: Synthesis, I've always maintained my primary issue is with the method of delivery, but that's a different discussion

Synthesis is an inevitality of evolution for beings that are dependent on tech. You need to understand the evolution is based on evironment and needs of the being. In the ME universe, the races environmnet make a demand on the use of tech and advancement of it. For beings not dependent on tech, synthesis is not the final stage evolution.

Synthesis become an eventually as long as the races of ME depend on tech. If they become independent of tech, that course is gone.

We'll just have to agree to disagree here - because you are quoting the Catalyst who says that "To exceed those limits they must be allowed to evolve; they must, by definition, surpass their creators." I think that's a load of bunk, personally ...

But that's true. Look are what happen with the qurians and geth if we make peace with them. The both benifite from it and advance together better then they were before alone.

Look how we benifited by having EDI on the normandy. You missed what the problem is....What causes the problem is the fact we force synthetic to be tools. That what casue the probelm down to the reapers themselves. If we don't force synthetics to be tools, all advancement becaomes a collaberation instead of forced enslavement.

[aries1001]

I have a deaf niece. That's not the point here (although she is very nice ) She recently had a baby boy (still not the point, but bear with me). He is also deaf.... see, this is a little bit closer to the point. Today deaf children can get Cochlear Implants; they'll help to hear better or just as well as people who hear normally do. Is this not a good example of synthethis......technology being used to help the hearing imparied, be they young or old, to hear better. [Hearing aids have been around for decades...]

I also clearly remember reading articles in Danish newspapers about exoskeletons for the handicapped, say a man who has been in traffic accident. He can get an exoskeleton, it'll help him walk etc. I have also seen articles about how blind people can see - or have nearly 20/20 vision - just as people who aren't blind have. Speaking of bad eyesight, I wear glasses to correct for near-sighted-ness and building error in both my eyes. Are all this not a symbol of synthethis as well?

Technology - implants - being used to enhance and better people's lives?

As for eyes, wouldn't it be sort of nice to have cat like eyes so that we can see in the dark?

[kobayashi-maru]

dreman9999 wrote...

kobayashi-maru wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

kobayashi-maru wrote...

Here's the problem with you point. It already is happen in the ME universe with biotic implants,gray boxes, the quarians, and Shepard's implats.
You confusing the catalyst offer of synthesis with synthesis in general.
Evolution is based on evirnment vs needs of the being. Based on the envirment in ME it already started. It can only stop if an outside force or unknow element changes the course of evolution.

I see your point but still disagree, the implants, grey boxes and all the other tech is in the ME universe, but just because they have used various types of synthetic material to aid them, it is an aid not a complete retrofit for eternal life. The Shepard implants complicate it I admit but I go with the they will wear out Babylon 5 resurrection style in a number of years.

I just don't know it's really complicated argument, considering by the end of the trilogy the only certain thing is that billions of species have been decimated and the only one with the chance to quickly repopulate is the less techie Krogans. So does that alter the argument. I'm not sure but get your point and agree while disagreeing if that makes sense.

Then I have to be more clear...
Synthesis is an inevitality of evolution for beings that are dependent on tech. You need to understand the evolution is based on evironment and needs of the being. In the ME universe, the races environmnet make a demand on the use of tech and advancement of it. For beings not dependent on tech, synthesis is not the final stage evolution.

Synthesis become an eventually as long as the races of ME depend on tech. If they become independent of tech, that course is gone.

But those species have been decimated. The tech left over will inevitably fail because the resources they once had have been destroyed during the invasion. They may have once depended on tech but after the war maybe not so much, even the Quarians are racing to get out of there suits. Then add in most of the tech they have is based around Eezo, just how much of that is left after the events of the game.

The more dominant species will enevitably become the Krogan because of birth rates and the newer species will more naturally evolve because of it - mainly due to fewer Asari without secret beacon.

I would support your argument if it happened naturally, but it didn't, the Asari where uplifted by Protheans and pretty much every piece of Tech in the Universe has it's origins in pre-prothean societies.

And by your argument Synthesis is not right choice because of the races left most are not dependant on technology. And with limited Eezo how exactly would the billions of new Krogan get implants.

I could see Synthesis as the solution in the ME universe maybe a few hundred thousand years later when they actually create there own tech rather than copy from old tech using old energy forms. But as for forcing it on everyone icluding uplifting those species not even able to properly understand the situation Yahg, Varren, heck even the poor fish in Shepards cabin. And God only knows what Synthesis would do to Space Hamster...

[Zulufoxtrot]

 "Synthesis" Is not inevitable, because it still makes no sense even if we remove the Catalyst from the equation. An increased use of synthetic parts might be seen on the part of organics, but this already exists in the Mass Effect Universe, just talk to EDI some and listen to what she says on the subject of transhumanism. But an increase of this is not "Synthesis" such as it is presented in the game. Synthesis states point-blank that it creates a new "DNA". It's ridiculous. You might argue that synthetic matierals can be used to replace or supplement organic based DNA at some point in the distant future, but as Synthetics in Mass Effect have no DNA so to speak, what is there to fuse it with? Maybe at some point the FAR FAR distant future we could see more Synthetic Organics, and more Organic Synthetics but even this would not be Synthesis as it is shown in game as Synthesis is presented as being the "Final" evolution whereas an increasingly blurred Synthetic/Organic relationship would be something that continues to progress as technology and our understanding advances, and would not effect every single species on every single world unless the decided to go on some massive crusade to bend everyone to their will. Synthesis also tries to play up the idea that it creates a magical understanding between Organic and Synthetics. I'm sorry but was there something preventing that prior to Synthesis? Because I'm pretty sure we got along just fine with EDI, Legion, etc... This goes back to problems with the basic logic behind the Catalyst/Starchild though and is something that taints all the endings. A more interdependent Synthetic-Organic relationship might be inevitable, but Synthesis as it is presented amounts to nothing more than a bad Sci-Fi Original Plot: Poorly explained, and poorly implemented. And if synthesis being inevtiable is really how the writers feel about the future of Mass Effect than all I have to say is that I wish them luck, and hope that being the laughing stock will put some sense back into them. 


Also: If Synthesis is inevitable, isn't that just the final nail in the coffin of "Choice"? It doesn't matter if you control or destroy the Reapers, because apparently you're going to end up in the exact same place regardless. 

Modifié par Zulufoxtrot, 22 août 2012 - 08:49 .

[N7Gold]

BioWare needs to remember what Mordin says about the importance of evolution when reaching its limit in Mass Effect 2, how it explains there's no such thing as a "pinnacle of evolution".

Shepard: "What is it about the Collectors' modifications that bothers you?"

Mordin: "Disrupts socio-technological balance. All scientific advancement due to intelligence overcoming/compensating limitations. Can't carry a load, so invent wheel. Can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations. No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates. Works other way too, advancement before culture is ready... Disasterous."

There's a lot of truth in that. Reapers view limitations as a weakness that organics always face. That's just a narrow minded view they have on species who aren't "immortal" like they are.

Modifié par N7Gold, 22 août 2012 - 09:30 .

[XxDarkTimexX]

Epic777 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Okay, you disagree with her interpretation of an open ending, good to see your excersising your free will to do so.

 How can it be open ended if synthesis is presented as the best open by far?

you can't have a new trilogy based off that ending because everyone has almost the same mind and there is no violence so it would just be a boring galaxy

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Zulufoxtrot wrote...

 "Synthesis" Is not inevitable, because it still makes no sense even if we remove the Catalyst from the equation. An increased use of synthetic parts might be seen on the part of organics, but this already exists in the Mass Effect Universe, just talk to EDI some and listen to what she says on the subject of transhumanism. But an increase of this is not "Synthesis" such as it is presented in the game. Synthesis states point-blank that it creates a new "DNA". It's ridiculous. You might argue that synthetic matierals can be used to replace or supplement organic based DNA at some point in the distant future, but as Synthetics in Mass Effect have no DNA so to speak, what is there to fuse it with? Maybe at some point the FAR FAR distant future we could see more Synthetic Organics, and more Organic Synthetics but even this would not be Synthesis as it is shown in game as Synthesis is presented as being the "Final" evolution whereas an increasingly blurred Synthetic/Organic relationship would be something that continues to progress as technology and our understanding advances, and would not effect every single species on every single world unless the decided to go on some massive crusade to bend everyone to their will. Synthesis also tries to play up the idea that it creates a magical understanding between Organic and Synthetics. I'm sorry but was there something preventing that prior to Synthesis? Because I'm pretty sure we got along just fine with EDI, Legion, etc... This goes back to problems with the basic logic behind the Catalyst/Starchild though and is something that taints all the endings. A more interdependent Synthetic-Organic relationship might be inevitable, but Synthesis as it is presented amounts to nothing more than a bad Sci-Fi Original Plot: Poorly explained, and poorly implemented. And if synthesis being inevtiable is really how the writers feel about the future of Mass Effect than all I have to say is that I wish them luck, and hope that being the laughing stock will put some sense back into them. 


Also: If Synthesis is inevitable, isn't that just the final nail in the coffin of "Choice"? It doesn't matter if you control or destroy the Reapers, because apparently you're going to end up in the exact same place regardless. 

If you want someone to read that, I'd fix it.

[Iakus]

N7Gold wrote...

BioWare needs to remember what Mordin says about the importance of evolution when reaching its limit in Mass Effect 2, how it explains there's no such thing as a "pinnacle of evolution".

Shepard: "What is it about the Collectors' modifications that bothers you?"

Mordin: "Disrupts socio-technological balance. All scientific advancement due to intelligence overcoming/compensating limitations. Can't carry a load, so invent wheel. Can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations. No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates. Works other way too, advancement before culture is ready... Disasterous."

There's a lot of truth in that. Reapers view limitations as a weakness that organics always face. That's just a narrow minded view they have on species who aren't "immortal" like they are.

Or as Mal Reynolds puts it:

 Sure as I know anything I know this, they will try again. Maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, ten, they'll swing back to the belief that they can make people…better. And I do not hold to that. So no more running. I aim to misbehave.

[EnvyTB075]

iakus wrote...

 Sure as I know anything I know this, they will try again. Maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, ten, they'll swing back to the belief that they can make people…better. And I do not hold to that. So no more running. I aim to misbehave.

I love you.

[M920CAIN]

Jessica Merizan is a Reaper doomsday device! watch out! she can indoctrinate you on twitter!

[Baa Baa]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

It's funny they think it's inevitable when they don't even know how it works.

[iSpaceMarine]

 Synthesis is cool, sure. But seeing my crewmates/friends/squadmates with bright green eyes and skin that glows... it's somewhat unsettling.

[zambot]

The space magic of synthesis may not be possible, but the world of cybernetics, genetic engineering, and nanotechnology is, in fact, already happening. It will advance to the point of something like synthesis where we can engineer significant portions of our bodies down to our genetic structure. Unless of course we manage to "extinct" ourselves first.