318 réponses à ce sujet

[Icinix]

It probably is inevitable - but not in the way perceived at the end of ME3.

It would probably be more along the lines of the total upload of consciousness into vacum or something utterly ridiculous.

I would also like to think we would leave developing worlds and life well enough alone to forge its own path rather than force our ideological views upon it.

..but hey - apparently its not tyrannical and dictatorish if you believe its the best for everyone.

[Iakus]

Icinix wrote...

It probably is inevitable - but not in the way perceived at the end of ME3.

It would probably be more along the lines of the total upload of consciousness into vacum or something utterly ridiculous.

I would also like to think we would leave developing worlds and life well enough alone to forge its own path rather than force our ideological views upon it.

..but hey - apparently its not tyrannical and dictatorish if you believe its the best for everyone.

Another Serenity quote:

River: People don’t like to be meddled with.We tell them what to do, what to think. Don’t run, don’t walk. We’re in their homes and in their heads and we haven’t the right.We’re meddlesome.

Teacher: River, we’re not telling people what to think, we’re just trying to show them how.

Modifié par iakus, 23 août 2012 - 01:41 .

[Xilizhra]

Icinix wrote...

It probably is inevitable - but not in the way perceived at the end of ME3.

It would probably be more along the lines of the total upload of consciousness into vacum or something utterly ridiculous.

I would also like to think we would leave developing worlds and life well enough alone to forge its own path rather than force our ideological views upon it.

..but hey - apparently its not tyrannical and dictatorish if you believe its the best for everyone.

I don't know if the means here are tyrannical or dictatorish. I don't think Synthesis really comes off as that, personally.

[Icinix]

Xilizhra wrote...

Icinix wrote...

It probably is inevitable - but not in the way perceived at the end of ME3.

It would probably be more along the lines of the total upload of consciousness into vacum or something utterly ridiculous.

I would also like to think we would leave developing worlds and life well enough alone to forge its own path rather than force our ideological views upon it.

..but hey - apparently its not tyrannical and dictatorish if you believe its the best for everyone.

I don't know if the means here are tyrannical or dictatorish. I don't think Synthesis really comes off as that, personally.

Meh - the debate itself has been waged and will continue to be waged.

But iakus post above is bang on.

..unless of course you were talking about the actual game implementation instead of a view point about synthesis, in which case I agree - I wasn't referring to their implementation - rather the act of synthesis itself.

[wright1978]

iakus wrote...


Another Serenity quote:

River: People don’t like to be meddled with.We tell them what to do, what to think. Don’t run, don’t walk. We’re in their homes and in their heads and we haven’t the right.We’re meddlesome.

Teacher: River, we’re not telling people what to think, we’re just trying to show them how.

Love Serenity.

[estebanus]

I guess it depends on what you see as synthesis. That abomination you see at the endings probably wouldn't be the same as when organics achieve it naturally. I imagine it to be kinda like "Deus Ex."

[Discouraged_one]

Yeah, synthesis was weird. Control and destroy should have been the only two.

[CalPal]

Welp, time to bring this article out again:

http://www.extremete...o-a-single-gram

Essentially, the article states there's NO difference between computer code and DNA. This is probably the coolest science thing I've ever heard and, considering the nature of ME3, would so totally fit into the idea of synthesis.

Also, just imagine how many ****-tonnes of terabytes each Sovereign-class Reaper has floating around inside them...

Modifié par CalPal, 23 août 2012 - 02:45 .

[estebanus]

It's not as much the idea of a synthesis that appals me, it's more how it is described by the ME3 endings, because I don't really see how that qualifies as any more than an abomination.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Jessica Merizan doesn't know anything because she spends all day on twitter. Seriously, have you ever seen her on the forums? Of course you're not going to understand why people didn't like the endings, it's kind of hard to explain it in 150 character or less.

[Memnon]

CalPal wrote...

Welp, time to bring this article out again:

http://www.extremete...o-a-single-gram

Essentially, the article states there's NO difference between computer code and DNA. This is probably the coolest science thing I've ever heard and, considering the nature of ME3, would so totally fit into the idea of synthesis.

Also, just imagine how many ****-tonnes of terabytes each Sovereign-class Reaper has floating around inside them...

There's no difference "conceptually" between code and DNA - meaning the DNA states can be represented as a binary series. It's a fascinating article, but that concept shouldn't be surprising really ... 

Modifié par Stornskar, 23 août 2012 - 02:52 .

[estebanus]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Jessica Merizan doesn't know anything because she spends all day on twitter. Seriously, have you ever seen her on the forums? Of course you're not going to understand why people didn't like the endings, it's kind of hard to explain it in 150 character or less.

She must have been on the forums from time to time post-ending, considering she oftenly linked people to the IT thread during the wait for the EC.

[3DandBeyond]

Flog61 wrote...

Hi everyone,


Okay, so recently ms merizan said that she and much of the writing staff like synthesis because it is 'inevitable'.

I disagree.


In this day and age, where we find treatments for the sick and can allow the disabled to lead almost normal lives, evolution has slowed right down. There is no survival of the fittest, there are no visible changes (our immune systems may become more advanced, but this is far from what synthesis entails)

Now imagine what everything would be like 250 years in the future. Cures for cancer, aids, who knows what.

How would synthesis occur?

What 'benefit' do the glowing green eyes, for example, provide to a race that allows them to outclass others?



I would also say that the whole idea of evolution is that one group evolves to outclass another, and to survive better in their respective environment. In this way, it seems a bit odd to expect every race in the galaxy to be at exactly the same stage of synthesis at exactly the same time, providing shepard does not choose synthesis in the end of me3.


And so, I ask you; Please do not make synthesis in every new mass effect game. Please. There is no reason it would happen if shepard does not choose it.



(Not to mention that if synthesis makes everyone immortal, the galaxy would be empty of resources withing a couple thousand of years, but that's another stroy)

Synthesis by its very definition could never become inevitable as an evolutionary process.  It is the artificial joining of 2 or more things to create a new entity.  In effect, a new being.  Synthesis is an artificial process.  It must always occur unnaturally.

You can even synthesize a new organic being by joining organic compounds together.

There are 2 forms of synthesis you have to consider.  The first is the strict definition as I've related about-the artificial joining of things together to make a new thing.  Evolution is impossible in this case so this is not inevitable.

The second is beings created as in the way synthesis is shown as happening naturally.  The form created in ME3 is synthesis.  The result obtained through synthesis could not occur naturally either because that would mean someday people would spontaneously grow tech within their bodies.  It could not be an evolutionary process in this case either because in order to make it happen people would have to naturally begin producing synthetic material to create tech within them which is a contradiction in terms.  If it is created naturally in our bodies, it is not synthetic. 

And it would have to create a totally new entity, not merely augmented people.  The only reasons our bodies would have for creating augmentations within us would be to help us do things better or to replace malfunctioning or missing pieces.  Lizards that can regrow tails do not become something other than what they are-they are not new entities.  The whole idea of it in the game is merely to insert reaper tech within all people but for what real purpose?  To homogenize them?  That is what hitting the pinnacle of evolution would do.  Genetics that supposedly reach a certain level or state of perfection can no longer be dissimilar.  If so, then someone has not reached the perfection pinnacle.  The kid sees organics as using tech to reach perfection.  Ok, even if that were true then once perfection is met, evolution stops, strife stops, growth stops, and eventually life stops.  Ask the Cheetah how similar genetic coding is working for them.  I'm not saying their genetics are perfect, but what I'm saying is that if there is some perfect genetic coding and if that is the pinnacle of evolution, achieved through synthesis, then all genetic coding must become the same to be perfect.  And sameness and the end of evolution is the death of a species.

[dreman9999]

Stornskar wrote...

iSousek wrote...

Ksandor wrote...

Do you know anything, anything about technological singularity? Please read Michio Kaku's books and Wikipedia. As simple as that. Synthesis will come and humanity will ascend and cease to exist in the sense we know. And only within a century but nothing like the Reapers or ME3 synthesis. Nanites in our brains and bloodstream will make us immortal nano cyborg super computing beings. We won't even need genetic treatment. But our eyes won't glow. Physics of the Future and Physics of the Impossible. All from Kaku. Pretty easy to read too!

Never again refer to a natural scientis when refering to social dynamics. Much like Neil DeGrasse Tyson, S. Hawking and many other physicist, Kaku is completely off the charts when making sociological predictions. Methodology of social sciences is not analogus to that of natural, thus their conclusions are not much better than that of a 10 year old Sci-Fi fanboy.

Also, two things. Much like Asimov's 3 laws of robotics, technological singularity is a concept created by a fiction writer, not a scientist. Second, that same concept of tech singularity is based on reverse engineering of human brain which by itself is a pretty big sci-fi concept with no guarantee of every happening.

This is basically the line of thinking that started the cycles:

Catalyst: "Organics create synthetics to improve their own existence; but those improvements have limits. To exceed those limits they must be allowed to evolve; they must, by definition, surpass their creators." 

I've said before, and I'll say it now - that's a load of bunk

Look at the quarians and geth  and our relatioship with EDI and say that.

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Flog61 wrote...

Hi everyone,


Okay, so recently ms merizan said that she and much of the writing staff like synthesis because it is 'inevitable'.

I disagree.


In this day and age, where we find treatments for the sick and can allow the disabled to lead almost normal lives, evolution has slowed right down. There is no survival of the fittest, there are no visible changes (our immune systems may become more advanced, but this is far from what synthesis entails)

Now imagine what everything would be like 250 years in the future. Cures for cancer, aids, who knows what.

How would synthesis occur?

What 'benefit' do the glowing green eyes, for example, provide to a race that allows them to outclass others?



I would also say that the whole idea of evolution is that one group evolves to outclass another, and to survive better in their respective environment. In this way, it seems a bit odd to expect every race in the galaxy to be at exactly the same stage of synthesis at exactly the same time, providing shepard does not choose synthesis in the end of me3.


And so, I ask you; Please do not make synthesis in every new mass effect game. Please. There is no reason it would happen if shepard does not choose it.



(Not to mention that if synthesis makes everyone immortal, the galaxy would be empty of resources withing a couple thousand of years, but that's another stroy)

Synthesis by its very definition could never become inevitable as an evolutionary process.  It is the artificial joining of 2 or more things to create a new entity.  In effect, a new being.  Synthesis is an artificial process.  It must always occur unnaturally.

You can even synthesize a new organic being by joining organic compounds together.

There are 2 forms of synthesis you have to consider.  The first is the strict definition as I've related about-the artificial joining of things together to make a new thing.  Evolution is impossible in this case so this is not inevitable.

The second is beings created as in the way synthesis is shown as happening naturally.  The form created in ME3 is synthesis.  The result obtained through synthesis could not occur naturally either because that would mean someday people would spontaneously grow tech within their bodies.  It could not be an evolutionary process in this case either because in order to make it happen people would have to naturally begin producing synthetic material to create tech within them which is a contradiction in terms.  If it is created naturally in our bodies, it is not synthetic. 

And it would have to create a totally new entity, not merely augmented people.  The only reasons our bodies would have for creating augmentations within us would be to help us do things better or to replace malfunctioning or missing pieces.  Lizards that can regrow tails do not become something other than what they are-they are not new entities.  The whole idea of it in the game is merely to insert reaper tech within all people but for what real purpose?  To homogenize them?  That is what hitting the pinnacle of evolution would do.  Genetics that supposedly reach a certain level or state of perfection can no longer be dissimilar.  If so, then someone has not reached the perfection pinnacle.  The kid sees organics as using tech to reach perfection.  Ok, even if that were true then once perfection is met, evolution stops, strife stops, growth stops, and eventually life stops.  Ask the Cheetah how similar genetic coding is working for them.  I'm not saying their genetics are perfect, but what I'm saying is that if there is some perfect genetic coding and if that is the pinnacle of evolution, achieved through synthesis, then all genetic coding must become the same to be perfect.  And sameness and the end of evolution is the death of a species.

Synthesis is a concept of tool use. It's already happening in ME with biotic implants, Grey boxes, the quarians, and Sheaprds implants.
Syntheis is just implantation. And the ME universe is going that direction.

[Twinzam.V]

dreman9999 wrote...

Synthesis is a concept of tool use. It's already happening in ME with biotic implants, Grey boxes, the quarians, and Sheaprds implants.
Syntheis is just implantation. And the ME universe is going that direction.

But with implants you at least have a choice of accepting or refusing those implants (except with Shepard or the Quarians).
Synthesis just gives you 2 of these choices, or you take it or you blow your brains out.

[dreman9999]

Twinzam.V wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Synthesis is a concept of tool use. It's already happening in ME with biotic implants, Grey boxes, the quarians, and Sheaprds implants.
Syntheis is just implantation. And the ME universe is going that direction.

But with implants you at least have a choice of accepting or refusing those implants (except with Shepard or the Quarians).
Synthesis just gives you 2 of these choices, or you take it or you blow your brains out.

Who said synthesis can only happen by taking the catalyst choice? Synthesis is going to happen one why or another, their is no need to accept the catalyst offer of synthesis and force it on everyone now. It will happen on it own. I'm not pro- the catalsyt offer of synthesis, Decline it. All I'm saying is that in the control and destroy choice, synthesis will happen by the choice of the beings of the universe  over time.

Modifié par dreman9999, 23 août 2012 - 03:44 .

[Twinzam.V]

dreman9999 wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Synthesis is a concept of tool use. It's already happening in ME with biotic implants, Grey boxes, the quarians, and Sheaprds implants.
Syntheis is just implantation. And the ME universe is going that direction.

But with implants you at least have a choice of accepting or refusing those implants (except with Shepard or the Quarians).
Synthesis just gives you 2 of these choices, or you take it or you blow your brains out.

Who said synthesis can only happen by taking the catalyst choice? Synthesis is going to happen one why or another, their is no need to accept the catalyst offer of synthesis and force it on everyone now. It will happen on it own. I'm not pro- the catalsyt offer of synthesis, Decline it. All I'm saying is that in the control and destroy choice, synthesis will happen by the choice of the beings of the universe  over time.

Synthesis like that would be more acceptable if it was the choice of the individual. The problem is that ME3 doesnt make it a choice, you have to accept it. If they made the Synthesis ending a matter of the people choose if they wanted it or not, i wouldnt see any problem with that because its the choice of each individual.
Instead they made a goverment dream of the people accept it and shut their traps and everyones happy.

[Cainne Chapel]

True Twinzam, but then war with godlike creatures known as the reapers wasn't exactly something everyone wanted either.

In order for survival, concessions will be made, by ANY Organic race. If it means not being wiped out, I'd take synthesis anyday, after all its shown not to change culture or make everything the SAME DNA. But its more like being "uplifted" in my eyes.

Given the tools and abilities to understand those outside of our organic structure and while in ME3 it was done forcibly and sci-fi-y, I dont see it as changing the way some people think and feel (I mean there will still be crime, races are still different, I dont believe it changes anything about the races fundamentally, but merely alters their perceptions on things).

But then I could also be wrong. But then my main shepards normally true destroy, or renegade control.... cuz I'm the boss dangit

[dreman9999]

Twinzam.V wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Synthesis is a concept of tool use. It's already happening in ME with biotic implants, Grey boxes, the quarians, and Sheaprds implants.
Syntheis is just implantation. And the ME universe is going that direction.

But with implants you at least have a choice of accepting or refusing those implants (except with Shepard or the Quarians).
Synthesis just gives you 2 of these choices, or you take it or you blow your brains out.

Who said synthesis can only happen by taking the catalyst choice? Synthesis is going to happen one why or another, their is no need to accept the catalyst offer of synthesis and force it on everyone now. It will happen on it own. I'm not pro- the catalsyt offer of synthesis, Decline it. All I'm saying is that in the control and destroy choice, synthesis will happen by the choice of the beings of the universe  over time.

Synthesis like that would be more acceptable if it was the choice of the individual. The problem is that ME3 doesnt make it a choice, you have to accept it. If they made the Synthesis ending a matter of the people choose if they wanted it or not, i wouldnt see any problem with that because its the choice of each individual.
Instead they made a goverment dream of the people accept it and shut their traps and everyones happy.

You too focus on the synthesis choice. Nothing is saying that control and destroy would not lead to a syntheis by choice. Merizan is say the next ME game would be like that.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

This is basically the line of thinking that started the cycles:

Catalyst: "Organics create synthetics to improve their own existence; but those improvements have limits. To exceed those limits they must be allowed to evolve; they must, by definition, surpass their creators." 

I've said before, and I'll say it now - that's a load of bunk

Look at the quarians and geth  and our relatioship with EDI and say that.

There's no indication the geth or EDI surpassed their creators by any natural evolution.  They merely evolved to want more.  There's also no reason to think that synthetics must always surpass their creators.  In fact, they may merely evolve to want to be allowed to be their own interpretation of life-even if that's a hive consciousness.  Or they may evolve to want to be like other organics, but that doesn't even always mean they would surpass their creators.  They may merely want only to ever be equal to their creators.  They may want in some ways to be superior or they may want to be considered equal in their own right, in their own interpretation of individuality.

The geth only evolved and did not rebel and for that crime alone, the quarians became fearful and sought to destroy them.  EDI did evolve, but even she began shutting off processes that interfered with natural forms of learning and advancement.  She decided she did not want to be more than the people she identified with-she decided she wanted to be like her crew.  Synthetics may surpass organics on some levels, but organics may surpass them on other levels.  This view of things is linear.  It is also an arrogant organo-centric view of things.  It's the idea that a synthetic lifeform will always view themselves and their lives relative to organics.  They may evolve and totally ignore organics.  But this says their lives will always revolve around their creators.  Nonsense.  Do children always live lives that revolve around their parents.  Some do, but most don't.  That's what independence and autonomy mean.  Many children do ignore their parents or love them or hate them or obsess over them.  That's what free will allows. 

The idea of killer robots that want to destroy their creators has been done to death.  The idea of the geth was profoundly different.  They were feared not for what they did, but what they might do.  And they were being killed for that.

It isn't that the geth or EDI or any synthetic will surpass their creators-it's that they will surpass their programming.  The quarians wanted slave labor.  Evolved geth might not want to be slaves.  That was their real crime.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

Synthesis is a concept of tool use. It's already happening in ME with biotic implants, Grey boxes, the quarians, and Sheaprds implants.
Syntheis is just implantation. And the ME universe is going that direction.

Synthesis is not just implatation.  It is the creation of a new entity.  That's why the collectors and the reapers are a form of synthesis.  Prosthetics or implants are not.

Again, synthesis is created artificially by joining or combining 2 or more things to create a new thing.  If you get a new arm, you are still you.  If I insert nanites into you that creates a new being and you think and act differently, that is synthesis. But it relies on someone combining you and the nanites together.  It could also be achieved by gene splicing or by combining a bunch of organic material together to create a whole new entity.  It does not mean it just has to be the use of synthetic material to create something or add on something.

By definition it cannot happen naturally.

[Cainne Chapel]

but 3D, outside of "understanding" the synthetics better, we are never really given in depth as to what exactly changes. From the looks of the scenes added by the EC, the species are still seperate and distinct, we all didn't change to become the same obviously, but seems more like we were "enhanced" technoorganicallyso that we "perceive" things in a better relation I guess. I'm not 100% sure.

I always just likened it a universal "ahh I see..." kind of thing.

[Cainne Chapel]

But yeah in our universe it couldn't happen naturally, but its not like we are talking about a realistic universe here, its a sci fi one, so who knows it COULD happen.

After all the Geth are able to help Quarians adapt to life without suits in a symbiotic way, soon a singularity event could happen and a new species or form of life comes about

[Memnon]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

but 3D, outside of "understanding" the synthetics better, we are never really given in depth as to what exactly changes. From the looks of the scenes added by the EC, the species are still seperate and distinct, we all didn't change to become the same obviously, but seems more like we were "enhanced" technoorganicallyso that we "perceive" things in a better relation I guess. I'm not 100% sure.

I always just likened it a universal "ahh I see..." kind of thing.

What 3D is referring to is the literal definition of the word "synthesis." It means to combine two things that are dissimilar into one new thing. By definition that can't happen naturally ... which implies that ME3 Synthesis can't - and never will - happen naturally

Modifié par Stornskar, 23 août 2012 - 04:54 .