214 réponses à ce sujet

[corlist]

Many thanks to peddroelmz for his weapon damage formula and advice.

Summary:
1: The N7 Typhoon does not ignore armor DR at all.
2: 1.5x damage multiplier does work against all protections, and stacks with 1.5x ramp up properly.
3: Ramp up 1.5x damage multiplier affects ammo powers. i.e. it increases base weapon damage.
4: At 0% ROF bonus, the first 4 shots are "cool" and consume 1 ammo each. After these 4 shots, the remaining uninterrupted shots are "hot" and consume 2 ammo each, with a 50% base damage increase.
5: BUG - AP Ammo's armor piercing does not work with the Typhoon. Ammo bonus damage still applies.
AP ammo works with the Typhoon. Details on AP ammo bug.
6: AR Piercing mod does work with the Typhoon and pierces armor correctly.
7: The Typhoon works with Warp ammo correctly.

Is it still any good?

Gamemako wrote...

In fact, after including extended clips where appropriate, the list of weapons with sustained DPS higher than the Typhoon against protection are as follows:

-Piranha
-Reegar (shields and barriers only)
-Hurricane (by 2.16DPS -- 0.2% difference).
-Acolyte 
-Talon also does against shields and barriers by a tiny margin.

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Test 1 vs Silver Ravager
Lv 20 Drellguard
No points invested
No damage bonus
No weapon mods

Observed cool shot damage
5400 - 5376.549805 = 23.450195

Calculation
(45.6333 - 30) * 1.5 = 23.44995

- N7 Typhoon has no natural armor negation on cool shots

Observed hot shot damage
5400 - 5342.325195 = 57.674805
(45.6333 * 1.5 - 30) * 1.5 = 57.674925

- N7 Typhoon has no natural armor negation on hot shots either

Full 100 ammo test (4 cool + 48 hot)

observed damage
5400 - 2537.801758 = 2862.198242

calculation
4 * 23.450195 + 48 * 57.674925 = 2862.19718

- N7 Typhoon does consistent damage against health and armor with the entire clip

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Test 2 vs Gold Ravager
Lv 20 Drellguard
No points invested
+25% Barrel V
Warp ammo II (25% base, 35% armor weakening)

Modified damage
45.6333 * (1 + 0.25) = 57.041625

Observed cool shot damage
8100 - 8051.779297 = 48.220703

Calculation
(45.6333 * 0.25) + (57.041625 - 50 * 0.65) * 1.5 = 48.2207625

- protection damage bonus (150% to shields, barriers and armor) does not apply to ammo damage

Observed hot shot damage
8100 - 8003.293945 = 96.706055

Calculation
(45.6333 * 1.5 * 0.25) + (57.041625 * 1.5 - 50 * 0.65) * 1.5 = 96.70614375

- ramp up damage bonus applies to ammo damage, making it do 150% base damage

Full 100 ammo test (4 cool + 48 hot)

Observed  damage
8100 - 3265.224609 = 4834.775391

Calculation
4 * 48.220703 + 96.706055 * 48 = 4834.773452

- Full clip result is consistent with the previous calculated damage

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Test 3 vs Gold Ravager
N7 Demolisher
Barrel V 25%
Passives 17.5%
AR Gear V 15%

modified damage
45.667 * 1.575 = 71.925525

AP Ammo IV (50% extra damage, 90% armor piercing)

Observed cool shot
8100 - 8044.374511719 = 55.625488281

Calculation
(45.667 * 0.5) + (71.925525 - 50) * 1.5 = 55.7217875

- AP Ammo's base damage works with the Typhoon, but the piercing property does not (in fact, a minute amount of damage is lost when calculated) (Note: This is an AP ammo bug, unrelated to Typhoon) 

Observed hot shot
8100 - 7979.0615234375 = 120.9384765625

Calculation
(45.667 * 0.5 * 1.5) + (71.925525 * 1.5 - 50) * 1.5 = 121.08268125

- Same as above

----------

Test 4 vs Bronze Ravager
N7 Demolisher
Barrel V 25%
Passives 17.5%
AR Gear V 15%
Piercing Mod (Ignore 65% armor)
AP Ammo I (10% damage, 50% armor piercing)

Observed cool shot
3600 - 3495.50292968 = 104.49707032

Calculation
(45.667 * 0.1) + (71.925525 - (15 * 0.35)) * 1.5 = 104.5799875

- Piercing mod works, but not the AP ammo piercing. (Note: This is an AP ammo bug, unrelated to Typhoon)

Observed hot shot
3600 - 3439.31689453 = 160.68310547

Calcuation
(45.667 * 0.1 * 1.5) + (71.925525 * 1.5 - (15 * 0.35)) * 1.5 = 160.80748125

- Same as above

---------- 

Test 5 vs bronze ravager

Typhoon 2 (Only weapon equipped)
(55.5 - 44.4)/9 + 44.4 = 45.6333

N7 Demolisher
Barrel (25%)
AR Gear (15%)
AP II (20% damage, 65% AP)
Passives (2.5%)

Modified
45.6333 * (1 + 0.25 + 0.15 + 0.025) = 65.0274525

Observed cool shot
3600 - 3501.20703125 = 98.79296875

Calculation
(45.6333 * 0.2) + (65.0274525 - (15 * 0.35)) * 1.5 = 98.79283875

- AP ammo works with Typhoon

----------

Extra test vs Platinum Atlas (shields)

Lv 20 HSe
Alliance Training (+10% Weapon, +35% Power)
AR Gear V (+15% Weapon)
Barrel V (+25% Weapon)
Magazine V

Typhoon II base damage = (55.5 - 44.4) / 9 + 44.4
45.6333

Modified damage
45.6333 * (1 + 0.10 + 0.15 + 0.25) =
68.44995

calculated cool and hot shots
cool: 68.44995 * 1.5 = 102.674925 vs prot (103 for shield/barrier)
hot: 68.44995 * 1.5 * 1.5 154.0123875 vs prot (155 for shield/barrier)

- The game rounds damage values to shields and barriers according to peddroelmz

platinum atlas armor/shield 27422
max shield recharge: 75% (20566)

expected damage (180 ammo)
4x cool shots before ramp up
(typhoon uses 2 ammo for hot shots)
176/2 = 88x hot shots

Expected damage = 4*103 + 88*155 = 14052
Expected shields remaining (from max degraded shield valued) = 20566 - 14052 = 6514

However, based on many 180 ammo test vs atlas, here are the results

shields left / # of appearance
6514 4
6359 1
5739 2
5378 1
4964 1
4293 1

Cool shots have been 100% consistent in producing 103 damage but 88 hot shots have been doing extremely inconsistent damage. I have no idea on what causes the inconsistency.
- May be due to distance vs target (sometimes when shooting at close range to atlas 5000+ shields remainaining occurs), longer-ranged shots consistenly produced lower total damage. (May be due to luck in number distribution, don't quote me on this)
- peddroelmz believes that is is simply to do with the rounding which occurs on damage against to shields and barriers which cause the inconsistency

Modifié par corlist, 29 août 2012 - 06:31 .

[Uchimura]

Well, it makes sense. People just assumed it did because they didn't know it did had bonus damage to armor/barrier/whatever until after Eric's thread about the wep post-nerf. Maybe that idea lingered around and people kept using EB and mag without giving AP a second thought, thus the hate. Or maybe it's still weak.. dunno.. only weapon I don't have yet.

Modifié par Uchimura, 22 août 2012 - 08:50 .

[jrod512ATX]

Yeah I was under the assumption it had "built-in" armor piercing ability. But the only thing I ever bothered trying it on was a Guardian.

[corlist]

It's common knowledge that the Typhoon has a natural .25m penetration like the Black Widow and the Crusader. However, there were rumours that it ignores a certain % of armor DR, which is proven to be false.

[RiflemanUK]

Does the 1.5 multiplier to armour appear to work though?

[corlist]

RiflemanUK wrote...

Does the 1.5 multiplier to armour appear to work though?

Yes it does, I've updated OP with a summary.

[Clayless]

corlist wrote...

It's common knowledge that the Typhoon has a natural .25m penetration like the Black Widow and the Crusader. However, there were rumours that it ignores a certain % of armor DR, which is proven to be false.

It must be what people assume, because I for one assumed that built in armour piercing meant it ignored a certain percentage of armour too.

[kmmd60]

Thank you for a good proof. That's explain why many players consider the typhoon to be a "bad" gun. Piercing without armor reduction, BW got us fooled again.

[FlowCytometry]

I guess it makes sense that it doesn't ignore the armor penalty innately, since its not a projectile weapon.

Great analysis, btw.

Modifié par FlowCytometry, 22 août 2012 - 09:13 .

[yarpenthemad21]

so typhoon is just not bugged gun. and ramp up mechanic is like changing base weapon damage from one to onother.
probably PPR works in same way.

[DnVill]

I'm curious to how you guys get these damage numbers in-game.

[corlist]

DnVill wrote...

I'm curious to how you guys get these damage numbers in-game.

We use a memory editor, the exact details may take a long while to explain.

[MikeSlackenerny]

I have two questions:

1) On your test with the Atlas shield, am I correct to read that the Typhoon is actually doing MORE damage than its theoretical value on some instances?
2) Am I correct to say that the damage multiplier against protections applies after the armor penalty has been subtracted? Because I've always assumed the damage protection multiplier to apply on the base damage and then the armor penalty subtracted until reading this post.

Good analysis by the way.

Modifié par MikeSlackenerny, 22 août 2012 - 09:43 .

[Sulaco_7]

Does this mean that equipping an AP mod + extended barrel will make the weapon perform better? (Sorry for my ignorance.)

[TehMerc]

This is why there needs to be detailed info on weapon screens, not just bars that increase or decrease with mods >.<

We're not all frightened of numbers.

[DHKany]

so the 1.5x multiplier against dfenses is not bugged as many people said?
Cause then that means it actually sucks..... a lot.

[corlist]

MikeSlackenerny wrote...

I have two questions:

1) On your test with the Atlas shield, am I correct to read that the Typhoon is actually doing MORE damage than its theoretical value on some instances?
2) Am I correct to say that the damage multiplier against protections applies after the armor penalty has been subtracted? Because I've always assumed the damage protection multiplier to apply on the base damage and then the armor penalty subtracted until reading this post.

Good analysis by the way.

1) Correct, I have no idea why.
2) Yes, armor DR applies first.

If you check this cool shot test vs a silver ravager, you'll see
(45.6333 [base damage] - 30 [silver DR}) * 1.5 [protection] = 23.44995

A ramp up effectively increases base damage by 50%, which is also subtracted by armor DR first.

(45.6333 [base damage] * 1.5 [ramp up] - 30 [silver DR}) * 1.5 [protection] = 57.674925

[MikeSlackenerny]

corlist wrote...

MikeSlackenerny wrote...

I have two questions:

1) On your test with the Atlas shield, am I correct to read that the Typhoon is actually doing MORE damage than its theoretical value on some instances?
2) Am I correct to say that the damage multiplier against protections applies after the armor penalty has been subtracted? Because I've always assumed the damage protection multiplier to apply on the base damage and then the armor penalty subtracted until reading this post.

Good analysis by the way.

1) Correct, I have no idea why.
2) Yes, armor DR applies first.

If you check this cool shot test vs a silver ravager, you'll see
(45.6333 [base damage] - 30 [silver DR}) * 1.5 [protection] = 23.44995

A ramp up effectively increases base damage by 50%, which is also subtracted by armor DR first.

(45.6333 [base damage] * 1.5 [ramp up] - 30 [silver DR}) * 1.5 [protection] = 57.674925

This news is really bumming me out. If we are just looking at the numbers the Typhoon is really not that impressive at all.

I've just noticed another thing and want to ask another question:

You mentioned the Typhoon shoots two rounds after it has ramped up, which according to the calculations in the post counts as one shot (i.e. in the gun's hot mode, the base damage applies to a two-round shot, not to each round it shoots). Do you know if the stated rate of fire in the spreadsheet uses the number of round or the number of shot on the numerator (in its hot mode)?

I ask this because I know the Hurricane also shoots two rounds but the rate of fire refers to the number of round and not the number of shot, but that the damage value stated in the spreadsheet applies to each round and not to each two-round shot. If the same logic for the Typhoon applies to the Hurricane then it would effectively half the DPS stated in the spreadsheet.

[xcrunr1647]

jrod512ATX wrote...

Yeah I was under the assumption it had "built-in" armor piercing ability. But the only thing I ever bothered trying it on was a Guardian.

Armor piercing and armor negation are not the same thing.

Armor piercing allows you to punch through objects, such as some pieces of cover and Guardian shields, whereas armor negation reduces the damage penalty that the armor does to each shot, like so:

(These are random numbers used for simplicity as an example, not take from anything in-game)

Let's say my Widow does 1000 damage per shot. A Brute with armor that reduces weapon damage by 75% is only going to take 250 damage per shot.

However, if you equip the piercing mod, you then "ignore 65% of an armored target's defenses" iirc...which would mean that its armor would reduce your weapon's damage by only 10%, taking 900 damage per shot.

Make sense?

That's why I chuckle when people call me a noob for using the piercing mod on my Widow..."it has innate piercing ability bro, use ammo mod!!1!"...I then proceed to chuckle and wreck everything with my SI. To the best of my knowledge, the Widow has only innate piercing, not negation...and if it does, I believe it must stack with the negation from the piercing mod, because I definitely do more damage when I have it equipped.

[peddroelm]

Great job ..

You should move the shield tests lower and start with the no skill armor tests ...

The rounding after each damage calculation mechanics makes vs shields/barriers terrible test subjects (no consistent damage) for DOTs or multiple shot weapons ...

[Grunt_Platform]

Hmm, so what does that "max damage reduction" value mean? It's 0.5f, if that helps. That's what everybody thought was innate piercing.

Could it be related to the apparent penalty for firing at range?

EDIT: For clarity we should probably stick with the terms used by the devs in the mechanics clarifcations thread and in-game: Piercing is the armor negation effect, Penetration is the ability for a bullet to travel through a target. If everybody uses their own personal terms, you end up wasting time redifining things in every thread.

Modifié par EvanKester, 22 août 2012 - 10:07 .

[prog_bassist]

xcrunr1647 wrote...

jrod512ATX wrote...

Yeah I was under the assumption it had "built-in" armor piercing ability. But the only thing I ever bothered trying it on was a Guardian.

Armor piercing and armor negation are not the same thing.

Armor piercing allows you to punch through objects, such as some pieces of cover and Guardian shields, whereas armor negation reduces the damage penalty that the armor does to each shot, like so:

(These are random numbers used for simplicity as an example, not take from anything in-game)

Let's say my Widow does 1000 damage per shot. A Brute with armor that reduces weapon damage by 75% is only going to take 250 damage per shot.

However, if you equip the piercing mod, you then "ignore 65% of an armored target's defenses" iirc...which would mean that its armor would reduce your weapon's damage by only 10%, taking 900 damage per shot.

Make sense?

That's why I chuckle when people call me a noob for using the piercing mod on my Widow..."it has innate piercing ability bro, use ammo mod!!1!"...I then proceed to chuckle and wreck everything with my SI. To the best of my knowledge, the Widow has only innate piercing, not negation...and if it does, I believe it must stack with the negation from the piercing mod, because I definitely do more damage when I have it equipped.

Not to mention, a Widow at level 10 has plenty of ammo to last a round.  

[corlist]

Sulaco_7 wrote...

Does this mean that equipping an AP mod + extended barrel will make the weapon perform better? (Sorry for my ignorance.)

I'll run some more numbers for that, using someone else's Typhoon DPS calculator

Typhoon I vs gold armor (50 DR)
No damage bonuses
No rof bonuses
perfect reload cancel + no refire error

EB V + Thermal V
244.539 average burst DPS
213.183 sustained DPS

EB V + Piercing V
660.785 average burst DPS
496.830 sustained DPS

- Note: As your typhoon gains levels, it loses less effectiveness against armor on higher difficulties. If you don't use any consumables AND have a low damage bonus, the damage that the Typhoon will do vs armour is trash.

[peddroelm]

xcrunr1647 wrote...


Armor piercing and armor negation are not the same thing.

Let's say my Widow does 1000 damage per shot. A Brute with armor that reduces weapon damage by 75% is only going to take 250 damage per shot.

However, if you equip the piercing mod, you then "ignore 65% of an armored target's defenses" iirc...which would mean that its armor would reduce your weapon's damage by only 10%, taking 900 damage per shot.

Make sense?

 

Not at all ... In ME3 there is no percentace based armor damage reduction for enemies .. Only flat amounts  (50 for gold and platium) .. So the piercing mod V will only add 50 - (50 * (1 - 0.65)) = 32.5 points of damage per widow shot .. Not really worth it .. + it lowers damage to targets you hit trough cover ...

Modifié par peddroelmz, 22 août 2012 - 10:10 .

[corlist]

MikeSlackenerny wrote...

I've just noticed another thing and want to ask another question:

You mentioned the Typhoon shoots two rounds after it has ramped up, which according to the calculations in the post counts as one shot (i.e. in the gun's hot mode, the base damage applies to a two-round shot, not to each round it shoots). Do you know if the stated rate of fire in the spreadsheet uses the number of round or the number of shot on the numerator (in its hot mode)?

I ask this because I know the Hurricane also shoots two rounds but the rate of fire refers to the number of round and not the number of shot, but that the damage value stated in the spreadsheet applies to each round and not to each two-round shot. If the same logic for the Typhoon applies to the Hurricane then it would effectively half the DPS stated in the spreadsheet.

tl;dr it simply consumes 2 ammo per shot when ramped up.

It does not actually fire 2 shots or the armor DR would have been applied twice, which would have been picked out by the testing. It simply consumes 2 ammo. The stated ROF in the spreadsheet is the max (ramped up ROF).