214 réponses à ce sujet

[jrod512ATX]

xcrunr1647 wrote...

jrod512ATX wrote...

Yeah I was under the assumption it had "built-in" armor piercing ability. But the only thing I ever bothered trying it on was a Guardian.

Armor piercing and armor negation are not the same thing.

Armor piercing allows you to punch through objects, such as some pieces of cover and Guardian shields, whereas armor negation reduces the damage penalty that the armor does to each shot, like so:

(These are random numbers used for simplicity as an example, not take from anything in-game)

Let's say my Widow does 1000 damage per shot. A Brute with armor that reduces weapon damage by 75% is only going to take 250 damage per shot.

However, if you equip the piercing mod, you then "ignore 65% of an armored target's defenses" iirc...which would mean that its armor would reduce your weapon's damage by only 10%, taking 900 damage per shot.

Make sense?

That's why I chuckle when people call me a noob for using the piercing mod on my Widow..."it has innate piercing ability bro, use ammo mod!!1!"...I then proceed to chuckle and wreck everything with my SI. To the best of my knowledge, the Widow has only innate piercing, not negation...and if it does, I believe it must stack with the negation from the piercing mod, because I definitely do more damage when I have it equipped.

Yeah it makes sense.  Once I started reading the numbers I realized it was something totally different.  I toss piercing on my Crusader too...but people laugh at me for entirely different reasons on that one.  

[MikeSlackenerny]

corlist wrote...

MikeSlackenerny wrote...

I've just noticed another thing and want to ask another question:

You mentioned the Typhoon shoots two rounds after it has ramped up, which according to the calculations in the post counts as one shot (i.e. in the gun's hot mode, the base damage applies to a two-round shot, not to each round it shoots). Do you know if the stated rate of fire in the spreadsheet uses the number of round or the number of shot on the numerator (in its hot mode)?

I ask this because I know the Hurricane also shoots two rounds but the rate of fire refers to the number of round and not the number of shot, but that the damage value stated in the spreadsheet applies to each round and not to each two-round shot. If the same logic for the Typhoon applies to the Hurricane then it would effectively half the DPS stated in the spreadsheet.

tl;dr it simply consumes 2 ammo per shot when ramped up.

It does not actually fire 2 shots or the armor DR would have been applied twice, which would have been picked out by the testing. It simply consumes 2 ammo. The stated ROF in the spreadsheet is the max (ramped up ROF).

The stated RoF for the Typhoon is 650 according to this :social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/13255314/1

However if it's taking out two rounds for every shot, then is it only actually shooting 325 shots in the game?

[xcrunr1647]

peddroelmz wrote...

xcrunr1647 wrote...


Armor piercing and armor negation are not the same thing.

Let's say my Widow does 1000 damage per shot. A Brute with armor that reduces weapon damage by 75% is only going to take 250 damage per shot.

However, if you equip the piercing mod, you then "ignore 65% of an armored target's defenses" iirc...which would mean that its armor would reduce your weapon's damage by only 10%, taking 900 damage per shot.

Make sense?

 

Not at all ... In ME3 there is no percentace based armor damage reduction for enemies .. Only flat amounts  (50 for gold and platium) .. So the piercing mod V will only add 50 - (50 * (1 - 0.65)) = 32.5 points of damage per widow shot .. Not really worth it .. + it lowers damage to targets you hit trough cover ...

And that is why I don't do numbers, unless I have to in math class.

However, I succeeded in making my point in the diference between armor negation and armor piercing, even if I did misunderstand exactly how the bonuses are applied.

EDIT: and now that you've put it like that, I'll probably stop using it haha

Modifié par xcrunr1647, 22 août 2012 - 10:18 .

[corlist]

MikeSlackenerny wrote...

The stated RoF for the Typhoon is 650 according to this :social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/13255314/1

However if it's taking out two rounds for every shot, then is it only actually shooting 325 shots in the game?

Yes the stated RoF for the Typhoon is 650, but it does not start at 650 ROF. You should check this out.

It does not fire 2 rounds for all shots, only when it's ramped up. Nobody would shoot a ton of cool shots anyways, so it's fair enough to divide all capacity by 2.

[peddroelm]

I would remove the inconclusive shields tests from the OP and leave in only the armor tests where the mechanics are clearly illustrated ..

If you really want to see what happens vs shields you really must record a video of the Shield HP and do a frame by frame analysis ...The error from the expected damage for each individual shot should be within -1, +1 from the measured one caused by the rounding error..its when you add all this rounding errors for a big clip the result error can be significant and hard to calculate before the fact ...

Thats why I never test against shields//barriers unless its single shot damage...

Modifié par peddroelmz, 22 août 2012 - 10:29 .

[corlist]

I would try to do frame by frame shield damage testing but TSearch updates the memory too slowly to do that. Is there any workaround?

[peddroelm]

PM me your origin id so we can chat

[MikeSlackenerny]

corlist wrote...

MikeSlackenerny wrote...

The stated RoF for the Typhoon is 650 according to this :social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/13255314/1

However if it's taking out two rounds for every shot, then is it only actually shooting 325 shots in the game?

Yes the stated RoF for the Typhoon is 650, but it does not start at 650 ROF. You should check this out.

It does not fire 2 rounds for all shots, only when it's ramped up. Nobody would shoot a ton of cool shots anyways, so it's fair enough to divide all capacity by 2.

My concern here is about how the RoF is calculated, because 650 rounds per minute could only mean 325 shots per minute in the game, so all the numbers in the spreadsheet shouldn't be multiplying by 650, but 325.

Modifié par MikeSlackenerny, 22 août 2012 - 10:35 .

[corlist]

MikeSlackenerny wrote...

corlist wrote...

MikeSlackenerny wrote...

The stated RoF for the Typhoon is 650 according to this :social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/13255314/1

However if it's taking out two rounds for every shot, then is it only actually shooting 325 shots in the game?

Yes the stated RoF for the Typhoon is 650, but it does not start at 650 ROF. You should check this out.

It does not fire 2 rounds for all shots, only when it's ramped up. Nobody would shoot a ton of cool shots anyways, so it's fair enough to divide all capacity by 2.

My concern here is about how the RoF is calculated, because 650 rounds per minute could only mean 325 shots per minute in the game, so all the numbers in the spreadsheet shouldn't be multiplying by 650, but 325.

The rof still stands. The ammo consumption has no direct relation with the ROF. It still shoots at 650 when fully ramped up and not at 325 ROF. It simply uses 2 ammo.

[MikeSlackenerny]

corlist wrote...

MikeSlackenerny wrote...

corlist wrote...

MikeSlackenerny wrote...

The stated RoF for the Typhoon is 650 according to this :social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/13255314/1

However if it's taking out two rounds for every shot, then is it only actually shooting 325 shots in the game?

Yes the stated RoF for the Typhoon is 650, but it does not start at 650 ROF. You should check this out.

It does not fire 2 rounds for all shots, only when it's ramped up. Nobody would shoot a ton of cool shots anyways, so it's fair enough to divide all capacity by 2.

My concern here is about how the RoF is calculated, because 650 rounds per minute could only mean 325 shots per minute in the game, so all the numbers in the spreadsheet shouldn't be multiplying by 650, but 325.

The rof still stands. The ammo consumption has no direct relation with the ROF. It still shoots at 650 when fully ramped up and not at 325 ROF. It simply uses 2 ammo.

But in your calculation the base damage applies to a 2-ammo shot, not to each ammo. So when you calculate DPS, you can't use 650.

[joker_jack]

So in other words, why did Bioware even make the gun?

[Rifneno]

N7 Typhoon. The more you learn about it, the more pathetic it gets.

So let's sum up what we've learned.  Since it consumes 2 ammo per shot, the revenant actually has much more ammo.  Slightly higher magazine, much higher reserve.

And we're still got all those reports of the piercing mod and/or AP ammo causing it to bug out and not give the bonuses.  Toss that in with this new revelation that it has no innate armor mitigation and you've got a recipe for failure.

Modifié par Rifneno, 22 août 2012 - 11:01 .

[MikeSlackenerny]

They did the two ammo thing for the Hurricane as well, apparently to bump up its RoF on paper. But this is the first definitive proof I've seen that the damage value applies to a "shot", and not every ammo for such guns. And this has a very drastic effect on the actual DPS you can get from the gun in the game.

Modifié par MikeSlackenerny, 22 août 2012 - 11:02 .

[peddroelm]

MikeSlackenerny wrote...

They did the two ammo thing for the Hurricane as well, apparently to bump up its RoF on paper. But this is the first definitive proof I've seen that the damage value applies to a "shot", and not every ammo for such guns. And this has a very drastic effect on the actual DPS you can get from the gun in the game.

PPR works the same ...http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/13775208   with video 

Modifié par peddroelmz, 22 août 2012 - 11:06 .

[MikeSlackenerny]

peddroelmz wrote...

MikeSlackenerny wrote...

They did the two ammo thing for the Hurricane as well, apparently to bump up its RoF on paper. But this is the first definitive proof I've seen that the damage value applies to a "shot", and not every ammo for such guns. And this has a very drastic effect on the actual DPS you can get from the gun in the game.

PPR works the same ...http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/13775208   with video 

Yes, forgot about that. I read that post. But I wasn't feeling this bummed out with PPR because I have been quite happy with its performance in the game. Typhoon, even on paper now, is actually quite ordinary.

It does beg the question, which has been asked by many many already: did it really need the nerf? I don't know personally because I only unlocked it after the nerf.

[Rifneno]

MikeSlackenerny wrote...

It does beg the question, which has been asked by many many already: did it really need the nerf? I don't know personally because I only unlocked it after the nerf.

Even before the nerf the piranha killed significantly faster.

[peddroelm]

Revenant X vs Typhoon X damage per shot comparison ...

 Both weapons have/reach same rof so burst DPS should scale the same ...

Revenant X no skill no consumables no addons Damage vs Gold armor
79.5 - 50 = 29.5

Ramped up Typhoon X no skill no consumables no addons Damage vs Gold armor
((55.5 * 1.5) - 50) * 1.5 = 49.875

Once you start adding bonuses that *1.5 multiplier starts widening the gap in Typhoon's favor... ARMOR PIERCING//WEAKEING ITS ABSOLUTELY NON-NEGOTIABLE MANDATORY ... (double that need if you have low level typhoon with low damage bonuses//consumables)


Will redo comparison with some top of the line equipment //skills on a destroyer ...

Destroyer with some consumables
25% EB30% DM27.5% Passive30% AR rail III consumable15% AR gear ?AP ammo 3

Revenant X damage per shot
(79.5 * 0.3) + (79.5 * (1 + 0.25 + 0.3 + 0.275 + 0.3 + 0.15)) - (50 * (1 - 0.7)) = 189.7125
vs
Typhoon X damage per shot
(55.5 * 1.5 * 0.3) + (((55.5 * 1.5 * (1 + 0.25 + 0.3 + 0.275 + 0.3 + 0.15)) - (50 * (1 - 0.7))) * 1.5) = 286.5656

Also keep in mind its easier to get head shots with typhoon (its more accurate) and headshot multiplier will further amplify the damage difference gap between the two weapons ...

Modifié par peddroelmz, 22 août 2012 - 12:11 .

[MikeSlackenerny]

peddroelmz wrote...

Damage per shot comparison (weapons have/reach same rof) so burst DPS should scale the same ...

Revenant X no skill no consumables no addons Damage vs Gold armor
79.5 - 50 = 29.5

Ramped up Typhoon X no skill no consumables no addons Damage vs Gold armor
((55.5 * 1.5) - 50) * 1.5 = 49.875

Once you start adding bonuses that *1.5 multiplier starts widening the gap in Typhoon's favor... ARMOR PIERCING//WEAKEING ITS ABSOLUTELY NON-NEGOTIABLE MANDATORY ... (double that need if you have low level typhoon with low damage bonuses//consumables)

But it's not easy to have a Typhoon X.

And the Revenant you can use on a lot more classes since its weight is much more manageable.

Modifié par MikeSlackenerny, 22 août 2012 - 11:47 .

[UnknownMercenary]

So what's the best Typhoon set up then? I've been using EB+clip with warp or incendiary ammo.

[peddroelm]

MikeSlackenerny wrote...

And the Revenant you can use on a lot more classes since its weight is much more manageable.

Clearly they don't intendt to make 1 gun best for all clases ... Ideally each weapon should have at least a small niche of applications (class - gameplay style combination) ...  If Typhoon was >>> Revenant (for example) in all imaginable situations then what would be revenants reason to exist as a weapon ?

Modifié par peddroelmz, 22 août 2012 - 11:52 .

[Rifneno]

peddroelmz wrote...

MikeSlackenerny wrote...

And the Revenant you can use on a lot more classes since its weight is much more manageable.

Clearly they don't intendt to make 1 gun best for all clases ... Ideally each weapon should have at least a small niche of applications (class - gameplay style combination) ...  If Typhoon was >>> Revenant (for example) in all imaginable situations then what would be revenants reason to exist as a weapon ?

What's the mantis' reason to exist when there's the widow?

[DHKany]

Rifneno wrote...

peddroelmz wrote...

MikeSlackenerny wrote...

And the Revenant you can use on a lot more classes since its weight is much more manageable.

Clearly they don't intendt to make 1 gun best for all clases ... Ideally each weapon should have at least a small niche of applications (class - gameplay style combination) ...  If Typhoon was >>> Revenant (for example) in all imaginable situations then what would be revenants reason to exist as a weapon ?

What's the mantis' reason to exist when there's the widow?

It's pretty lightweight so i sometimes use it on my AA (blasphemy, I know) without too much of a cool down issue.

[xcrunr1647]

Rifneno wrote...

peddroelmz wrote...

MikeSlackenerny wrote...

And the Revenant you can use on a lot more classes since its weight is much more manageable.

Clearly they don't intendt to make 1 gun best for all clases ... Ideally each weapon should have at least a small niche of applications (class - gameplay style combination) ...  If Typhoon was >>> Revenant (for example) in all imaginable situations then what would be revenants reason to exist as a weapon ?

What's the mantis' reason to exist when there's the widow?

Oftentimes players will have the Revenant X before they unlock the Typhoon, and even more often the Mantis X before they unlock the Widow. I would imagine that has something to do with why they exist.

EDIT: The Typhoon is best on the Destroyer, obviously...but I prefer my Indra on him, anyway. My Indra is my preferred weapon on a number of classes, including the Destroyer, Paladin, SE, a couple Infiltrators...after the recent buffs I find it to be a truly outstanding weapon.

Modifié par xcrunr1647, 22 août 2012 - 12:18 .

[Eckswhyzed]

@Mike

I don't think the 2 ammo per shot doesn't affect damage output in any way. In the balance all the things group Gamemako ran some numbers and exactly matched the video of Specter's post nerf Typhoon vs. Atlas. I can link more video once I get back to my PC....

[MikeSlackenerny]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

@Mike

I don't think the 2 ammo per shot doesn't affect damage output in any way. In the balance all the things group Gamemako ran some numbers and exactly matched the video of Specter's post nerf Typhoon vs. Atlas. I can link more video once I get back to my PC....

Yes, please let me know when you've found it!