214 réponses à ce sujet

[Gamemako]

Yep, you're right, my mistake there. First one decreases expected damage by 546, which puts the actual in line with the expected (no surprise here).

Second one decreases expected damage by 1815, putting it at 2968.21 below the observed value. That's a difference of 24.53 damage per shot.

The third decreases expected damage by 1440, putting it 3084.88375 behind the observed value. This difference of 32.134 per shot is greater than can be observed via an AP mod at all (29.25).

//EDIT: peddro, when I say "shot" I mean single-cost or double-cost shot that applies DR. When I say "ammo" I mean the number on the screen (after heating, 1 "shot" consumes 2 "ammo").

Modifié par Gamemako, 22 août 2012 - 04:21 .

[corlist]

19 unbuffed - 480.7
102 buffed - 6,165.9000
expected unbuffed: 89.6325 - 30 = 59.6325
expected buffed: 134.44875 - 30 = 104.44875
total expected: 11786.79
full Atlas armor: 12940
difference: 1153.21
per-hit DR decrease: 11.305980392156862745098039215686

I have no idea what you mean by the observed value, were you expecting 19C + 102H to deplete a silver atlas's armor with 1.275 additive??

[Gamemako]

corlist wrote...

I have no idea what you mean by the observed value, were you expecting 19C + 102H to deplete a silver atlas's armor with 1.275 additive??

No, I mean that I observed, in an actual test, that 19 cold and 102 hot shots will deplete the armor on a Silver Atlas. The "expected" values are those calculated according to your theory, which do not match the actual observed result.

//EDIT: Note that I neglected the passthrough from shieldgating, which is no more than 1/2 of one hot shot.

Modifié par Gamemako, 22 août 2012 - 04:31 .

[peddroelm]

corlist you should redo one of his tests - recording the target armor HP so we can see how much damage each hit inflicts and also the remaining target HP .. That should settle the matter ...

[corlist]

Gamemako wrote...

corlist wrote...

I have no idea what you mean by the observed value, were you expecting 19C + 102H to deplete a silver atlas's armor with 1.275 additive??

No, I mean that I observed, in an actual test, that 19 cold and 102 hot shots will deplete the armor on a Silver Atlas. The "expected" values are those calculated according to your theory, which do not match the actual observed result.

//EDIT: Note that I neglected the passthrough from shieldgating, which is no more than 1/2 of one hot shot.

I suspect the inconsistency with the results stem from the fact that the target is in fact an Atlas. I'm not sure about piercing hitscan weapons doing extra damage an atlas's canopy or if any of the poorly-documented weak or strong spots were hit. There were even rumours that shooting the rear turbines caused bonus damage.

I recommend testing against a ravager (or a banshee if you feel gutsy) because BioWare has noted that they do not contain any weak (or strong) spots.

[Gamemako]

corlist wrote...

I suspect the inconsistency with the results stem from the fact that the target is in fact an Atlas. I'm not sure about piercing hitscan weapons doing extra damage an atlas's canopy or if any of the poorly-documented weak or strong spots were hit. There were even rumours that shooting the rear turbines caused bonus damage.

I recommend testing against a ravager (or a banshee if you feel gutsy) because BioWare has noted that they do not contain any weak (or strong) spots.

Duly noted. The breakoff points don't give bonus damage (or aren't supposed to, anyway) unless they actually break off, but BioWare has said that "certain weapons" may be getting bonuses that aren't intended. That could be the weapons with innate penetration. I will test against other targets as well.

Ravagers are the only other feasible target. Banshees introduce accuracy issues while Brutes have the armor plating that is nigh-impossible to miss with a full-auto Typhoon.

Modifié par Gamemako, 22 août 2012 - 04:42 .

[PolisMassa]

I just have to say that I really appreciate this tread, good work.

Modifié par PolisMassa, 22 août 2012 - 05:59 .

[Sulaco_7]

corlist wrote...

N7 Destroyer Typhoon I
Typhoon I
Barrel V (25%)
Thermal V
Devastator Mode (40%)
Passives (27.5%)
AR Rail III (30%)
AR Gear V (15%)
---
ROF (35%)
---
AP Ammo III (30% base, 70% armor reduction)

1.75 seconds for first 12 ammo used
7.753 seconds for remaining 168 ammo used
1.33 seconds for reload cancel

Damage per cool shot (armor)
(55.5 * 0.3) + (((55.5 * (1 + 0.25 + 0.3 + 0.275 + 0.3 + 0.15)) - (50 * (1 - 0.7))) * 1.5) = 166.89375

total damage per clip = 25,901.9978
Avg sustained DPS per clip = 2,391.027 * 1.35 (DM ROF) * 1.075 (timescale)
3,469.977 (an approximation at best)

I used your calculation to try to figure out Harrier DPS (excluding 1.5 multiplier at the end):

(106.2 * 0.3) + (((106.2 * (1 + 0.25 + 0.3 + 0.275 + 0.3 + 0.15)) - (50 * (1 - 0.7)))) = 258.465

Then:

258.465 * ((550RoF * 1.35DevastorRoFBonus) / 60seconds) = 3198.504

So, 3,469.977 > 3198.504, which means that the Typhoon does better (sustained) DPS than the Harrier, right?  ..Or maybe my math is off (?).

[Xaijin]

peddroelmz wrote...

corlist wrote...
Your theory is that the armor DR is applied after the protection damage bonus. That would have been inconsistent with single unbuffed shots against armor.

From OP
Observed cool shot damage
5400 - 5376.549805 = 23.450195

Calculation
(45.6333 - 30) * 1.5 = 23.44995

He claims your formula doesn't work .. But he's not appyling it ..
Also not sure he takes into account the fact that the typhoon eats 2 ammo per hot shot ...

Because he has an agenda.

Modifié par Xaijin, 22 août 2012 - 06:46 .

[Mgamerz]

The engine has trouble dealing with that many bullet objects on the screen which is why both the hurricane and the typhoon use 2 for 1. I'm not sure how it affects the damage output (Haven't read the whole thread yet)

[Mgamerz]

corlist wrote...

I would try to do frame by frame shield damage testing but TSearch updates the memory too slowly to do that. Is there any workaround?

I don't know if this is cheating or not, but for the sake of finding memory values/weapon tests you can set the game speed to lower through Coalesced. As long as you don't actually finish the match I don't think it would count as cheating. Though you might consider asking Abram or Derek or Bryan first.

Not going to tell you where to find this in there but I'm sure you can find it with some control F skills.

Modifié par Mgamerz, 22 août 2012 - 06:52 .

[Arppis]

And that's why I use armor piercing mod with the gun. And the fact that it pierces trough objects better.

[Elecbender]

Quick someone test the ramp up for the GPSMG.

I've noticed it using up 2 ammo as well during the "hot" state.

[TeamLexana]

It does have built in armor peircing, just go attack a guardian without the AP mod or armor and you'll see that it does. On the other hand, I'm still not convinced it has built in sheild/barrier penatration and it's fully ramped damage overall is still low to make this gun worth the effort. BW nerfs, where good guns go to die.

[Rifneno]

TeamLexana wrote...

It does have built in armor peircing, just go attack a guardian without the AP mod or armor and you'll see that it does. On the other hand, I'm still not convinced it has built in sheild/barrier penatration and it's fully ramped damage overall is still low to make this gun worth the effort. BW nerfs, where good guns go to die.

Armor piercing =/= armor mitigation.

[Folgor]

Rifneno wrote...


Armor piercing =/= armor mitigation.

reiterating for importance

[corlist]

Sulaco_7 wrote...

corlist wrote...

N7 Destroyer Typhoon I
Typhoon I
Barrel V (25%)
Thermal V
Devastator Mode (40%)
Passives (27.5%)
AR Rail III (30%)
AR Gear V (15%)
---
ROF (35%)
---
AP Ammo III (30% base, 70% armor reduction)

1.75 seconds for first 12 ammo used
7.753 seconds for remaining 168 ammo used
1.33 seconds for reload cancel

Damage per cool shot (armor)
(55.5 * 0.3) + (((55.5 * (1 + 0.25 + 0.3 + 0.275 + 0.3 + 0.15)) - (50 * (1 - 0.7))) * 1.5) = 166.89375

total damage per clip = 25,901.9978
Avg sustained DPS per clip = 2,391.027 * 1.35 (DM ROF) * 1.075 (timescale)
3,469.977 (an approximation at best)

I used your calculation to try to figure out Harrier DPS (excluding 1.5 multiplier at the end):

(106.2 * 0.3) + (((106.2 * (1 + 0.25 + 0.3 + 0.275 + 0.3 + 0.15)) - (50 * (1 - 0.7)))) = 258.465

Then:

258.465 * ((550RoF * 1.35DevastorRoFBonus) / 60seconds) = 3198.504

So, 3,469.977 > 3198.504, which means that the Typhoon does better (sustained) DPS than the Harrier, right?  ..Or maybe my math is off (?).

I don't think your math is off at all.

Since the Cerberus Harrier has a 1187.08 max burst DPS while the Typhoon has a max burst DPS of 1352.81, I have every reason to believe that the Typhoon has more sustained DPS vs protections. Even with the double ammo consumption, the minimum shots the Typhoon can put out is (100-4) / 2 + 4 = 52 shots. The harrier can only manage 36 even with an extended magazine.

[corlist]

Mgamerz wrote...

corlist wrote...

I would try to do frame by frame shield damage testing but TSearch updates the memory too slowly to do that. Is there any workaround?

I don't know if this is cheating or not, but for the sake of finding memory values/weapon tests you can set the game speed to lower through Coalesced. As long as you don't actually finish the match I don't think it would count as cheating. Though you might consider asking Abram or Derek or Bryan first.

Not going to tell you where to find this in there but I'm sure you can find it with some control F skills.

If I do get banned for using consumables and occasionally wiping because of modifiying the memory values too slowly and get no credits/XP/whatever out of it for the sake of public knowledge, I'll be sure to let all of you know.

Good point however, I'll pm the mods preferably before I conduct my scheduled tests today to find out LV 4 ammo stats.

[corlist]

TeamLexana wrote...

It does have built in armor peircing, just go attack a guardian without the AP mod or armor and you'll see that it does. On the other hand, I'm still not convinced it has built in sheild/barrier penatration and it's fully ramped damage overall is still low to make this gun worth the effort. BW nerfs, where good guns go to die.

I have no idea what you mean by shield and barrier penetration. Perhaps you imagined that the Typhoon could ignore shield gates? As with every other hitscan weapon, It does not.

The 1.5x damage bonus vs shield and barriers do apply however, and occasionally does more damage than expected. This is not a property of just the Typhoon to do extra mystery damage against shields and barriers, all automatic weapons (or even semi-automatic) do that.

[tinler]

Makes sense why the change from 2.0x to 1.5x hot damage felt like it was much more than a -25% in damage. The flat damage reduction is a bigger proportional hit on the 1.5x damage than 2.0x damage.

[peddroelm]

corlist wrote...

...and occasionally does more damage than expected. This is not a property of just the Typhoon to do extra mystery damage against shields and barriers, all automatic weapons (or even semi-automatic) do that.

Yesterday while playing the game showed me the old "rapid firing weapons do more damage to shields" loading screen ..Lol - could it be this is what is actually happening and not a bug ? Rapid fire weapons do expected calculated damage vs armor and shields - why would they bug out vs shields//barriers ?
 

[LGear]

xcrunr1647 wrote...

Armor piercing and armor negation are not the same thing.

Armor piercing allows you to punch through objects, such as some pieces of cover and Guardian shields, whereas armor negation reduces the damage penalty that the armor does to each shot, like so:

It's a small nitpick and all, but while you're correct at the explanation of the mechanics, the terms used are not. The ability to punch through objects is actually called "penetration", while armor negation is called "piercing", as officially explained here. 

Modifié par LGear, 23 août 2012 - 03:42 .

[RGFrog]

LGear wrote...

xcrunr1647 wrote...

Armor piercing and armor negation are not the same thing.

Armor piercing allows you to punch through objects, such as some pieces of cover and Guardian shields, whereas armor negation reduces the damage penalty that the armor does to each shot, like so:

It's a small nitpick and all, but while you're correct at the explanation of the mechanics, the terms used are not. The ability to punch through objects is actually called "penetration", while armor negation is called "piercing", as officially explained here. 

Umm... That's why there's always been TWO parts to the ap mod. Penetration at a reduced hit value and ignoring a percentage of a targets armor protections...

Which is why the Typhoon's nerf down to .25m never made any sense. It only affected the abillity to shoot a phantom through a wall or a barrier. Not the ability to take down a boss's armor.

That stat alone should be returned to pre-nerf status, IMO.

Otherwise, the weapon's UR status isn't really justified.

[Gamemako]

corlist, I have replicated your results with a Ravager, both with unbuffed and buffed shots. A pair of Ravagers were kind enough to get stuck on the stairs, so I slowly killed them and recorded the results. I should post the video of the second one; it's pretty funny. I'm about 2m from his face and he just kinda sits there and takes it.

N7D
Devastator Mode
Barrel and ammo
Warfighter V
Typhoon III

Gold Ravager (8100 armor)

Sum bonus: 1.775
Base damage: 46.866666666666666666666666666667
Modified damage: 83.188333333333333333333333333334

Test 1: Unbuffed shots
7 bars of armor = ~5670
shots to kill: 114
approximate per-shot damage: 49.74
estimated per-shot damage: (83.188333333333333333333333333334-50)*1.5 = 49.7825

consistent!

Test 2: full-auto
Observed ammo remaining: 69

5 unbuffed
70 buffed

per-unbuffed damage: 49.7825
per-buffed damage: 112.17375

total damage: 248.9125+7852.1625 = 8101.075
Consistent with observations

Good to have an answer on this; those Atlas tests were annoying me quite a bit. I thought they had removed the ability to double-hit canopies, but alas, it would seem not. Posting calculations regarding Sp3c7eR's old video:

Sp3c7eR's video again:

PRE-NERF VIDEO:

~46 left at kill
break at ~124 -- NO PASSTHROUGH PRIOR TO PATCH THAT NERFED THIS GUN
78 ammo to kill
39 shots to kill
27422 armor
703.12820512820512820512820512821 damage per shot
assume 2x multi, 1.5x armor, no armor DR at all, ammo power applies to protection multi (overestimate)
->703.13/(2*1.5*55.5) = 4.223 observed additive
That is about twice the actual additive (2.325) and includes two assumptions that will overestimate damage.

Guessing that Warp Ammo IV adds 75% armor weakness

Estimated damage: 39*2*1.5*55.5*1.875 - 39*50*1.5*0.25? + 39*2*55.5*0.45 = 12175.3125 - 731.25 + 1948.05 = 13392.1125
Atlas armor: 27422
Hits per shot: 2.0476231811822070640460942961762

Conclusion: Warp Ammo IV either provides greater than 75% armor weakness (I have no idea, 75% is a liberal guess, my other testing was vs. barrier to avoid that), more damage than the 45% damage I had previously thought, or double canopy hits do not apply DR twice


Considering shield damage (which peddro will hate me for):
6 unbuffed shots
42 buffed shots
27422 shield

Estimated damage: 6*roundup(1.5*55.5*1.875) + 42*roundup(1.5*2*55.5*1.875) = 942 + 13146 = 14088
hits per shot: 1.9464792731402612152186257808064
...but I don't remember shield ever proccing double hits in the first place? I guess they do!



==============================================================================

POST-NERF VIDEO:

78 rounds left at break
156 rounds left at kill

Neglect passthrough (10% of last shield hit)

39 buffed shots
6 unbuffed shots
26 buffed shots

Estimated damage: 6*1.5*(1.875*55.5-12.5) + 65*1.5*(1.875*55.5*1.5-12.5) + 65*0.45*1.5*55.5 = 824.0625 + 14000.390625 + 2435.0625 = 17259.515625

Hits per shot: 1.5888047263782931335884462284845

I suppose this is the effect of the first nerf (100cm to 25cm penetration)

Why isn't this borne out in other testing? There are no AP mods involved here, but there are AP mods elsewhere which should increase frequency of double canopy hits. Are AP mods barred from getting the bonus while innate penetration still gets double-hits?

So yeah, the potential for double-canopy hits clearly still exists and is non-trivial, but I have no idea how it triggers or why the results are so inconsistent.

As a side-note, I wouldn't trust my 45% estimate on Warp Ammo IV anymore. That was based on a barrier test which may not be accurate due to these funky mechanics. Would replicate that test before you run off and assume it's true. Armor weakness factor is a wild guess; I haven't tested it at all.

[corlist]

*edit* hot shot included

Glad to hear that we both have a consistent result against ravagers.

I'm currently testing the AP ammo IV mechanics, if you'd like you could attempt to take a crack at reverse engineering it (I was stupid and did not put a piercing mod on either of my two weapons, causing the big problem of 2 unknowns) here is the setup.

Additives
Barrel V 25%
Passives 17.5%
AR Gear V 15%
AP Ammo IV (to be tested)

Typhoon II
(55.5-44.1)/9 + 44.4 = 45.667

modified damage
45.667 * 1.575 = 71.925525

Observed cool shot
8100 - 8044.374511719 = 55.625488281

Calculation
( 45.667 * ? ) + ( 71.925525 - (50 * ?) ) * 1.5 =

Observed hot shot
8100 - 7979.0615234375 = 120.9384765625

Calculation
( 45.667 * ? * 1.5) + ( 71.925525 *1.5 - (50 * ?) ) * 1.5 =

---

Claymore X (with barrel/choke)

observed damage
8100 - 4967.6015625 = 3,132.3984375

( (206 * ?) + (293.55 - (50 * ?)) ) * 8 =

Modifié par corlist, 23 août 2012 - 05:49 .