374 réponses à ce sujet

[Lt_Kitty]

robertthebard wrote...
Since I can't know what's going to happen until I try, I think I still try.  It's what Shepard has been about the entire series.  With a pretty good success ratio.  We fail hard at Thessia, allowing TIM to get Vendetta, but it's really still a nothing to lose scenario.  We put all our eggs into one basket, as bad as that is, and we've got very little like a real choice.  Liara's estimate of at least a century to finish the cycle with the Reapers winning seems logical, so even if it were cut in half...  That's the problem with the hypothetical though, as you note, it's really hard to say.  I don't even play the endings much, twice out of twelve trips to the beam because the whole getting there frustrates me to no end, but if I'm going to overlook surviving Harbinger's laser, then I'm going to choose something.  I have one Shepard that is going to choose Refusal, because he doesn't believe the galaxy is worth saving.

Leadership put more effort into denying the threat than preparing for it, and, as we see in Vancouver at the beginning, they are already looking at me like their not being ready is my fault.  The Council, right up to reprogramming Avina to disregard anything to do with Reapers as a myth from some extinction cult, has been no better.  Hence the "Ah, Reapers, we have already dismissed that claim" meme.  The Protheans bought us extra time, and they wasted it pretending it wasn't real, even before they got Sovereign cleaned out of the Presidium, as far as I can tell.  They were so dead set against it that they forced me to commit mutiny to save 'em, or not, depending, but to get in a position to stop Sovereign and Saren.  If they had put as much effort into preparing for the inevitable as they did denying it's existance, maybe we would have had a better chance.

Alright, fair enough.

xBl4ck0p5x wrote...
No, you're a Reaper (capital R).

"BWWWWAAAAH"...

Go home reaper, you're drunk.

Modifié par Lt_Kitty, 23 août 2012 - 07:16 .

[ATLAS1192]

Lt_Kitty wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Since I can't know what's going to happen until I try, I think I still try.  It's what Shepard has been about the entire series.  With a pretty good success ratio.  We fail hard at Thessia, allowing TIM to get Vendetta, but it's really still a nothing to lose scenario.  We put all our eggs into one basket, as bad as that is, and we've got very little like a real choice.  Liara's estimate of at least a century to finish the cycle with the Reapers winning seems logical, so even if it were cut in half...  That's the problem with the hypothetical though, as you note, it's really hard to say.  I don't even play the endings much, twice out of twelve trips to the beam because the whole getting there frustrates me to no end, but if I'm going to overlook surviving Harbinger's laser, then I'm going to choose something.  I have one Shepard that is going to choose Refusal, because he doesn't believe the galaxy is worth saving.

Leadership put more effort into denying the threat than preparing for it, and, as we see in Vancouver at the beginning, they are already looking at me like their not being ready is my fault.  The Council, right up to reprogramming Avina to disregard anything to do with Reapers as a myth from some extinction cult, has been no better.  Hence the "Ah, Reapers, we have already dismissed that claim" meme.  The Protheans bought us extra time, and they wasted it pretending it wasn't real, even before they got Sovereign cleaned out of the Presidium, as far as I can tell.  They were so dead set against it that they forced me to commit mutiny to save 'em, or not, depending, but to get in a position to stop Sovereign and Saren.  If they had put as much effort into preparing for the inevitable as they did denying it's existance, maybe we would have had a better chance.

Alright, fair enough.

xBl4ck0p5x wrote...
No, you're a Reaper (capital R).

"BWWWWAAAAH"...

Go home reaper, you're drunk.

Lies and slander. "Reaper" is not the politically correct term. It's "cuttlefish".

[Lt_Kitty]

Only Reapers are allowed to call themselves Reapers.

Mom, dad... I'm coming out of the dark space. I'm a Reaper.

*GASP!*

[Memnon]

robertthebard wrote...
Since I can't know what's going to happen until I try, I think I still try.  It's what Shepard has been about the entire series.  With a pretty good success ratio.  We fail hard at Thessia, allowing TIM to get Vendetta, but it's really still a nothing to lose scenario.  We put all our eggs into one basket, as bad as that is, and we've got very little like a real choice.  Liara's estimate of at least a century to finish the cycle with the Reapers winning seems logical, so even if it were cut in half...  That's the problem with the hypothetical though, as you note, it's really hard to say.  I don't even play the endings much, twice out of twelve trips to the beam because the whole getting there frustrates me to no end, but if I'm going to overlook surviving Harbinger's laser, then I'm going to choose something.  I have one Shepard that is going to choose Refusal, because he doesn't believe the galaxy is worth saving.

Leadership put more effort into denying the threat than preparing for it, and, as we see in Vancouver at the beginning, they are already looking at me like their not being ready is my fault.  The Council, right up to reprogramming Avina to disregard anything to do with Reapers as a myth from some extinction cult, has been no better.  Hence the "Ah, Reapers, we have already dismissed that claim" meme.  The Protheans bought us extra time, and they wasted it pretending it wasn't real, even before they got Sovereign cleaned out of the Presidium, as far as I can tell.  They were so dead set against it that they forced me to commit mutiny to save 'em, or not, depending, but to get in a position to stop Sovereign and Saren.  If they had put as much effort into preparing for the inevitable as they did denying it's existance, maybe we would have had a better chance.

This is a good response, and I should point out that I don't disagree with you. I've said before, while I questioned the Catalyst in my first playthrough, I still shot that tube in the end, and with no regrets. My point throughout this discussion is that it's unfair to label those who Refuse as idealists who naively doom the galaxy to extinction, because at that moment when you make the decision you really can't know that, and you do have good reason to be suspicious of the Catalyst's motivations

Modifié par Stornskar, 23 août 2012 - 07:24 .

[AlanC9]

Lt_Kitty wrote...
Sure you can trust him... you got nothing to lose except the fate of the cycle and your life.  What if you chose, died, and nothing happend?  The reapers show your last ditch effort of trusting them to the resistance... and you died a stupid death.  Shepard, the last hope of the galaxy demoralized and broken to the last moment.  The fight crumbles and the 50k year cycle continues without any further complications.  That's a very impractical situation.  How noble of you to accept the doctrines of the catalyst and his ideals, though.

You personally lost the chance to fight and perhaps, maybe, stop bleeding enough to unite the galaxy and fight off the threat... like Shepard has done in the past.  See, I can make a situation up just like Bioware does.  Perhaps this human reaper somehow makes a last minute appearance and effects things?  We don't know.

Exactly how is Shepard supposed to magically turn the tide of battle?

Edit: A better play for you would be that the Crucible might cause everyone in the galaxy ot be huskified. But it's still just replacing one inevitable defeat with another.

Modifié par AlanC9, 23 août 2012 - 07:31 .

[AlanC9]

Stornskar wrote...
My point throughout this discussion is that it's unfair to label those who Refuse as idealists who naively doom the galaxy to extinction, because at that moment when you make the decision you really can't know that, and you do have good reason to be suspicious of the Catalyst's motivations

So Shepard could be picking Refuse in the hopes that some miracle happens? Like Hitler in 1945 figured that somehow the Allies might fall apart and let him hold on to Germany, and his life?

(Does it count as Godwinning if Hitler only makes an appearance as an example of unrealistic decision-making?)

[ATLAS1192]

AlanC9 wrote...

Stornskar wrote...
My point throughout this discussion is that it's unfair to label those who Refuse as idealists who naively doom the galaxy to extinction, because at that moment when you make the decision you really can't know that, and you do have good reason to be suspicious of the Catalyst's motivations

So Shepard could be picking Refuse in the hopes that some miracle happens? Like Hitler in 1945 figured that somehow the Allies might fall apart and let him hold on to Germany, and his life?

(Does it count as Godwinning if Hitler only makes an appearance as an example of unrealistic decision-making?)

Pretty sure it does, and even if it didn't, some people would count it as Godwinning anyway.

[robertthebard]

Stornskar wrote...

This is a good response, and I should point out that I don't disagree with you. I've said before, while I questioned the Catalyst in my first playthrough, I still shot that tube in the end, and with no regrets. My point throughout this discussion is that it's unfair to label those who Refuse as idealists who naively doom the galaxy to extinction, because at that moment when you make the decision you really can't know that, and you do have good reason to be suspicious of the Catalyst's motivations

I don't question the choices, as I have no right to do so.  I do, however, enjoy discussing the motivations.  As I said, I have one Shepard that is going to deliberately choose to Refuse, because he doesn't feel the galaxy is worth saving.  At least, he will if I ever stop doing ME 1 and 2 trying to get this other Shepard to work right.  I think he's about to go do Rannoch, so I'm getting close.  These dialogs can be enlightening, sometimes, and outright comical at others.

[Memnon]

AlanC9 wrote...

Stornskar wrote...
My point throughout this discussion is that it's unfair to label those who Refuse as idealists who naively doom the galaxy to extinction, because at that moment when you make the decision you really can't know that, and you do have good reason to be suspicious of the Catalyst's motivations

So Shepard could be picking Refuse in the hopes that some miracle happens? Like Hitler in 1945 figured that somehow the Allies might fall apart and let him hold on to Germany, and his life?

(Does it count as Godwinning if Hitler only makes an appearance as an example of unrealistic decision-making?)

I don't know, you're at the writers' mercy there. One thing that stood out to me was that you now know where the entity that controls the Reaper resides. Maybe you can find a way to take him out, disrupt the Reapers ... anything. It's a long shot, but at least it's unconventional ...

[Lt_Kitty]

AlanC9 wrote...
Exactly how is Shepard supposed to magically turn the tide of battle?

Like any of the choose endings... space magic?  Human reaper goes super-saiyan and fuses with Shepard.  Wrex(Shepard).  Legion returns in white with a giant navy from across the stars.  A secret organization like Cerberus, but not Cerberus comes in at the last minute with destructo-beams.  Gundams.  Choices from previous games may have an effect.  Use you're imagination, man.

[AlanC9]

Well, I guess I could swap in the Japanese leadership there. They were arguably even less realistic.

[AlanC9]

Lt_Kitty wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Exactly how is Shepard supposed to magically turn the tide of battle?

Like any of the choose endings... space magic?  Human reaper goes super-saiyan and fuses with Shepard.  Wrex(Shepard).  Legion returns in white with a giant navy from across the stars.  A secret organization like Cerberus, but not Cerberus comes in at the last minute with destructo-beams.  Gundams.  Choices from previous games may have an effect.  Use you're imagination, man.

Not sure if serious....

[robertthebard]

Lt_Kitty wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Exactly how is Shepard supposed to magically turn the tide of battle?

Like any of the choose endings... space magic?  Human reaper goes super-saiyan and fuses with Shepard.  Wrex(Shepard).  Legion returns in white with a giant navy from across the stars.  A secret organization like Cerberus, but not Cerberus comes in at the last minute with destructo-beams.  Gundams.  Choices from previous games may have an effect.  Use you're imagination, man.

Time Stop spell from D&D.  You'll need quite a few wizards, but surely, being BioWare, we can scare a few up...

[Lt_Kitty]

AlanC9 wrote...
Not sure if serious....

The imagination part was, at least.  I mean if I really had the time I might be able to come up with something.  Honestly, though I would rather retcon most of ME3 in the process.

Or we could fight Reapers with Reapers.  Yo dawg, I heard you like Reapers...

[AlanC9]

Stornskar wrote...
I don't know, you're at the writers' mercy there. One thing that stood out to me was that you now know where the entity that controls the Reaper resides. Maybe you can find a way to take him out, disrupt the Reapers ... anything. It's a long shot, but at least it's unconventional ...

You do realize that this is pure wishful thinking, right? But yeah, nothing wrong with Shep telling Hackett to fire on the Citadel. RPG characters should be allowed to fail.

[TheDeadYoshi]

Refusal could have been expanded. Maybe Shep could have opened a com link with the fleet, saying the crucible didn't work, to keep fighting - etc etc etc... some inspirational speech yet they know this is the last fight and then cut to Liaras voice. The refusal ending was far too abrupt.

[Memnon]

AlanC9 wrote...

Stornskar wrote...
I don't know, you're at the writers' mercy there. One thing that stood out to me was that you now know where the entity that controls the Reaper resides. Maybe you can find a way to take him out, disrupt the Reapers ... anything. It's a long shot, but at least it's unconventional ...

You do realize that this is pure wishful thinking, right? But yeah, nothing wrong with Shep telling Hackett to fire on the Citadel. RPG characters should be allowed to fail.

Oh I understand that it's wishful thinking - and as much as I hated the endings for what I believed to be a forced sacrifice (though I actually lived, yay EMS?), dying on the Citadel because I took it out to kill the Catalyst is a sacrifice I could have ... ah, lived with, for lack of a better word. 

Modifié par Stornskar, 23 août 2012 - 07:57 .

[DarthSliver]

TheDeadYoshi wrote...

Refusal could have been expanded. Maybe Shep could have opened a com link with the fleet, saying the crucible didn't work, to keep fighting - etc etc etc... some inspirational speech yet they know this is the last fight and then cut to Liaras voice. The refusal ending was far too abrupt.

i agree, i think refusal at least deserved a scene showing us getting destroyed.


Honestly through some people who support Refuse forget that from the beginning you know Conventional Victory isnt possible and if you look back to ME1 and ME2 you know why. The Council started to believe you at the end fo ME1 but since the Collectors killed you and you werent there for 2 years to push the effort to build the forces the Council decided to not believe in the Reaper Threat but if they had stayed the course despite the fact Shepard died maybe Refuse could be a victory. Just you know the Crucible is the only way to win and ship to ship combat is impossible against the Reapers seeing how you planned to use the fleet to distract them so you could get the Crucible activated to destroy the Reapers. Just the fact is even if the Starkid was lying to you, you have no choice but to trust the choices you have been given to work as the Starkid said because if you dont choose you lose anyways. You are placed in a situation where you are damn if you dont something and can be damned if you do try something, better to try something i say. 

But my headcannon is the game ends at "Best seats in the house scene" and the Crucible goes off and destroys the Reapers like were told in the plan. I sorta think Bioware put themselves in a hole when it comes to continuing the series, we shouldnt have been able to choose at the end if Bioware was truly intent at continuing the Galaxy after the Reaper Threat. Now they have to canonized the decision if they wish to continue Mass Effect after ME3.

[Goneaviking]

LiarasShield wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Joker doesn't have a sister...

Breaking news...

Admiral Anderson failed to provide satisfactory evidence that he was born in London. The disgraced military commander attempted to proffer his birth certificate as evidence but expert LiarasShield explained "If it happened off camera it isn't canon. I'm not even convinced he was really born at all. It's just headcanon or fanfiction."

Nice jab at sarcasm love much appreciated but they didn't show any reaper camps or reapers harvesting civilians during the whole game of me3 and their isn't only so many excuses to say why they didn't do it espically when shepard has used the normandy to fly all across the galaxy to get aid or unite the races don't you think if they're any reaper camps that we would've already saw them?


On a side note I do believe some of the codex like the information on certain races is accurate  also I do know anderson is from london and we even went their so thanks once again for your cheeky reply ^_- 

• Shepard raiding a concentration camp would be a serious departure from the story.
• It would radically change the tone, and nature of the game.
• The game would absolutely be reclassified to adults only in any country that had a rating, and would prohibited entirely in several countries that have no such rating - such as Australia.
• Putting in such a blatant holocaust scene would absolutely been seen, legitimately, as trivialising the atrocities and would run a very real risk of damaging sales of the game and ongoing revenue from DLC and potentially future products.

There are very real reasons why depicting death camps would be undesirable for Bioware, even if they were part of official canon (which they are).

EDI is a credible source of information. Doubts about the reliability of the catalyst are valid and justified, doubts about EDI's report are not - unless you or someone else can actually put forward a case as to why she would be lying in that instance.

The primarily revelation of Mass Effect 2 was that humanity would be harvested and used as a source for the next batch of reapers. That was corroborated in the third installment by the overwhelming force of the reaper invasion being centred around Earth.

After passing through the portal of light and emerging into the dark corridor in the Citadel - you are surrounded by the corpses of many many humans which are being manhandled by keepers. Since Shepard and Anderson are the only people that made it through the transporter device these unfortunates were among those brought through the beam prior to Shepard's mad rush.

This third point is actual, verifiable, evidence with our own eyes that humanity is being harvested.

Anderson's unsupported claims that he was born in London have as much veracity as EDIs reports about Reaper death camps, and much less relevance to the story.

Willful ignorance is a form of dishonesty. 

Modifié par Goneaviking, 24 août 2012 - 02:44 .

[AlanC9]

Stornskar wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Stornskar wrote...
I don't know, you're at the writers' mercy there. One thing that stood out to me was that you now know where the entity that controls the Reaper resides. Maybe you can find a way to take him out, disrupt the Reapers ... anything. It's a long shot, but at least it's unconventional ...

You do realize that this is pure wishful thinking, right? But yeah, nothing wrong with Shep telling Hackett to fire on the Citadel. RPG characters should be allowed to fail.

Oh I understand that it's wishful thinking - and as much as I hated the endings for what I believed to be a forced sacrifice (though I actually lived, yay EMS?), dying on the Citadel because I took it out to kill the Catalyst is a sacrifice I could have ... ah, lived with, for lack of a better word. 

Actually, there's something to be said for an ending where the fleet blows the Citadel. Presumably the Citadel would nova, taking out, what, 85% of the human race (depending on how many have already been turned to goo)? An interesting tradeoff compared to Destroy. It's not very clear why losing the Catalyst would harm the Reaper, though.

[The Twilight God]

saracen16 wrote...

Discuss.

What is there to discuss? Being an accomplice to the murder of trillions is bad.

FACT!

[Han Shot First]

Refusal is the wrong choice because every character we meet in the Shepard trilogy dies, every civilization we encounter is destroyed, and every sapient space faring species is completely annihilated. It is the wrong choice because it ends in total defeat and another cycle of mass extinctions, humanity being one of the species that gets to join the ranks of the Tyrannosaurs, Sabre Tooth cats and Dodo birds.

That there are actually some fans who attempt to argue that an ending that results in the greatest military defeat in human history is the best one, is hilarious.

But doin't just take my word for it. Take Javik's. He has an excellent quote that could just as easily be used to refer to Shepard's stubborn refusal to use the Crucible.

"Because you still have hope that this war will end with your honor intact. Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honor matters. Their silence will be your answer."

Modifié par Han Shot First, 24 août 2012 - 03:40 .

[DJRackham]

anmiro wrote...

The Catalyst has no reason to lie. Shepard bled out at the control panel. The Catalyst could have simply left him to die and the cycle would have continued as usual. What does the Catalyst gain by reviving him?

"Shepard bled out at the control panel. "

For me, this is crux of the issue. Shepard is shown with her/his arms drenched in blood, staggering and crawling towards the control panel before s/he collaspes in a heap. Shepard appears to bleed out within inches of the control panel. Everything beyond that might be taken as Shepard's oxygen deprived brain filling in the details during her/his last few seconds prior to brian death.


Personally, this is how I see the series ending. Shepard bleeding out within inches of her/his goal. Very apropos I think. I may just end every playthrough at that point (assuming I complete more than one).

[saracen16]

Han Shot First wrote...

Refusal is the wrong choice because every character we meet in the Shepard trilogy dies, every civilization we encounter is destroyed, and every sapient space faring species is completely annihilated. It is the wrong choice because it ends in total defeat and another cycle of mass extinctions, humanity being one of the species that gets to join the ranks of the Tyrannosaurs, Sabre Tooth cats and Dodo birds.

That there are actually some fans who attempt to argue that an ending that results in the greatest military defeat in human history is the best one, is hilarious.

But doin't just take my word for it. Take Javik's. He has an excellent quote that could just as easily be used to refer to Shepard's stubborn refusal to use the Crucible.

"Because you still have hope that this war will end with your honor intact. Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honor matters. Their silence will be your answer."

Indeed. That this galaxy and its citizens are worth saving is a strong argument against consigning it to the studies of the future archaeologists and explorers.

[Marauder Shieldz]

Refusal consists of you, denying three hard choices to doom the galaxy. Yourself. Your Romance. Your Friends. Every being of every race. You don't succeed in any way at all and the hundreds of hours you put in to everything means nothing because "I won't let fear compromise who i am."

Refusal is idiotic to say the least. 

Heres the bad things with the endings.

Destroy - Geth and EDI die. Shepard can die, depending on player.
Control - Shepard dies. Can go against everything you stand for. ("Only way we win this is with dead reapers")
Synthesis - Change the DNA of every being in the galaxy without their consent. 
Refusal - Everybody dies. Everything you did now means nothing. You doom the galaxy. The End.

It's quite clear if you think about it. 

Modifié par Marauder Shieldz, 24 août 2012 - 08:19 .