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Why I think refusal is the wrong choice


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#76
robertthebard

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Hannah Montana wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Here's a thought:  Instead of throwing out veiled insults to my intelligence, you support your position?  I have cycle upon cycle of harvested civilizations that asked you how it's not fulfilling it's programming, you have "you think it's that limited".  So how about, instead of "it would take too much time for me to make up something so baffling that you couldn't figure it out if you had to" you simply provide some details.  Because quite frankly, if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull**** isn't going to work.  If you want to throw out statements with the logic of "I said so" you are already argueing from a losing position, the lore in game says otherwise.  I can disregard ME 2 and ME 3 and still come out with the same answer.


I never threw out any insults, if you think that then it is because you were ignorant of my point.
I'm not even sure what you said or what your point is.

Part of the programming is to stop Organics and Synthetics from conflict with eachother.
If there is conflict in the galaxy after the catalyst was defeated then his programming was not fulfilled.

Hmm, who said this:  I suggest you pick a better word to use and look at the definitions of them before you use them.

Oh, that's right, you did.  How is this not to be taken as a veiled insult to my intelligence?  Is it that I'm supposed to be too stupid to pick up on it?

It's programming is to resolve Organic/Synthetic conflict.  It's solution is to harvest, this is the goal of it's programming, arrived at by it's own logic.  Refusing to stop it does not stop it from fulfilling it's objective, since it will simply continue to do what it has always done.  It is not interested in Organic vs Organic conflict.  It's only interested in Organic/Synthetic conflict.  If you defeat the Catalyst, then it's programming is indeed not fulfilled, so refusing to act doesn't stop it's programming from being fulfilled, since it's not defeated, you are.

#77
GreyLycanTrope

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saracen16 wrote...

DISCLAIMER: this is a thread about REFUSAL. This is NOT a thread about destroy, control, or synthesis. There are plenty of threads out there for each ending.

Realist

re⋅al⋅ist [ree-uh-list] –noun 
1.a person who tends to view or represent things as they really are.
2.an artist or a writer whose work is characterized by realism.
3.Philosophy. an adherent of realism.–adjective 
4.of or pertaining to realism or to a person who embodies its principles or practices: the realist approach to social ills; realist paintings.  

Idealist
I⋅de⋅al⋅is [ahy-dee-uh-list] –noun 
1.a person who cherishes or pursues high or noble principles, purposes, goals, etc.
2.a visionary or impractical person.
3.a person who represents things as they might or should be rather than as they are.
4.a writer or artist who treats subjects imaginatively.
5.a person who accepts the doctrines of idealism.

Let me be clear: this is not an insult to idealism. Idealism drives most of our ambitions and dreams, and also drives our conflicts. However, idealism itself is not practical when real solutions are needed. Idealism never stopped the countless wars in our history, and never stopped the actions of those infamous leaders who committed atrocities and genocide. Refusal itself is based on idealism: sacrificing trillions of lives in the galaxy for the sake of pride, for the sake of not using the Catalyst and Crucible to end the cycle, for refusing to do what it really takes to end the Reaper cycle and repeat the same mistakes of the past, refusing to sacrifice your life for the sake of the many. The ruthless calculus of war, a fact of modern military conflict, has been bent because one refuses to sacrifice his/her life and his/her pride so that many could live. There is a fine line between idealism and realism. There is a limit to practical idealism: one can not simply aspire to higher goals and pay a hefty price for it, especially if it means the continuation of the Reaper cycle and the murder of countless species... the genocide of countless species. It is simply not practical as a solution. We already know the Reapers can not be defeated otherwise. To choose conventional warfare would be to lose and go down as just another footnote in the history of the Reaper cycles.

No one in history has been judged for sacrificing morals more than one has been judged for sacrificing lives. When lives hang in the balance, morals and ideals have no weight. The ruthless calculus of war, to sacrifice some lives so that many more could live, can not be ever more correct. The weight of a person is by his/her actions, not his/her beliefs. To refuse means you regard life, all life, as insignificant, as just more fodder for Reaper production, as another inevitability in the cycle. To refuse would be to capitulate to the Reaper's goals: to harvest all life so that tech singularity may be averted. To refuse is to commit murder, to accept responsibility for the genocide of every single species. Refusal is a choice and not a choice at the same time: it is Shepard's fault if he/she refuses, but it is not a valid choice in light of realistic goals.

The reality of the ME3 ending choices is that you can not beat the Reapers conventionally, and you need the Crucible to win. You don't have enough time to make a choice because the Reapers are attacking the Crucible and its attendant allied force. You can either destroy the Reapers and all synthetics, control the galaxy as a despot, or homogenize all life into a questionable form. One of these ways will end the cycle.  There is wisdom in harnessing the strengths of your enemy, an enemy that would otherwise be rendered almost irrelevant by the Crucible. To stop the cycle is our goal. To stop the Reapers is the key. Their control over the galaxy spans countless cycles and eons, and ending it can not come without cost as it is right now. To end an inevitability can not come without sacrifice. This is not about what the galaxy wants. This is not a democratic choice. This is about stopping the Reapers and choosing a new future for the galaxy, and which future is worth its price for ending the Reaper cycle.

Discuss.

You end the cycle but control and synthesis don't stop the Reapers, they are still there just a powerful a every simple with a different way of controling the galaxy. Destroy makes much more sense but it is more of an offerning then a sacrafice, you and most of your friends can survive but you steal the life of an entire group of lifefroms to do it. This is similar to what the Reapers do, EDI even find the Reapers repulsive since they're obsessed with self-oreservation. I happen to agree with that view point and I will not become a monster to stop the Reapers, it makes me no better then them. Yeah that is partly idealism but I have no issue with that, survival for it's own sake is pointless, start compromising your ideals in desperation then there wasn't much point in having them to being with. They're something to live by not something to be causally case aside when convenient. Refusal is not the wrong choice, it's more idealistic than the rest but it's not wrong.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 22 août 2012 - 01:03 .


#78
saracen16

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AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Programming? You make them look like simple machines. Nah. The brat and its boys claim to be the "pinnacle of evolution and existence". That doesn't look like they are running on MS-DOS.


Correction: the Reapers are the pinnacle of evolution and existence. The Catalyst is just the collective intelligence, the AI construct, the machine that runs their programming. And yes, it's that simple: a synthetic is not guided by malevolent ambitions like the rest of organic life is. It is guided by logic.

~snip awesome Sovereign conversation~

And you want to cooperate with them and call that realistic? Maybe you should read that dictionary again.


Sovereign is arguing about the inevitability of the cycle. He is enslaved to the Catalyst, who is in the end a machine with one logic in mind. With the Crucible, I dictate the terms to them, not the other way around.

Is submission preferable to extinction?


A question with different contexts. In Saren's situation, submission is equivalent to extinction: the cycle continues, and he would be spared the horrible deaths the rest of his species will endure. In refusal, it is no different: the cycle continues as well.

However, with the Crucible options, "submission" doesn't qualify: you are, as I said before, dictating the terms of the engagement with the Crucible. It just so happens that all 3 solutions also capitulate to the question of tech singularity, the one the Reapers seek to answer as well, in some form or other. But in the end, it is YOU who makes the choice on your terms: the cycle ends, the Reapers cease their harvest, and life continues. It is inevitable that life will be changed forever once the Reaper cycle is interrupted forever. That was the order of the cosmos that you just changed.

You should not impose synthesis against the will of everyone involved, just because of your ideology. That is what you are trying to do, right? And that's what an idealist does, remember? "Idealist: A person who cherishes or pursues high or noble principles, purposes, goals, etc."


There is a difference between a practical idealist and a foolish one. The former considers the realistic goals and consequences, namely the lives of organics and synthetics everywhere. The latter one pursues his goals regardless of the cost to life and livelihood. 

But let's be realistic: You answer to the Council and not the reapers.


You're right: as a Spectre, Shepard's goal is to stop the Reapers no matter what it takes. As a preserver of galactic peace, he/she must do whatever it takes to end the Reaper threat and save the most amount of lives in the long run. Saren understood that well before he became indoctrinated by Sovereign.

#79
Hannah Montana

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robertthebard wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Here's a thought:  Instead of throwing out veiled insults to my intelligence, you support your position?  I have cycle upon cycle of harvested civilizations that asked you how it's not fulfilling it's programming, you have "you think it's that limited".  So how about, instead of "it would take too much time for me to make up something so baffling that you couldn't figure it out if you had to" you simply provide some details.  Because quite frankly, if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull**** isn't going to work.  If you want to throw out statements with the logic of "I said so" you are already argueing from a losing position, the lore in game says otherwise.  I can disregard ME 2 and ME 3 and still come out with the same answer.


I never threw out any insults, if you think that then it is because you were ignorant of my point.
I'm not even sure what you said or what your point is.

Part of the programming is to stop Organics and Synthetics from conflict with eachother.
If there is conflict in the galaxy after the catalyst was defeated then his programming was not fulfilled.

It's programming is to resolve Organic/Synthetic conflict.  It's solution is to harvest, this is the goal of it's programming, arrived at by it's own logic.  Refusing to stop it does not stop it from fulfilling it's objective, since it will simply continue to do what it has always done.  It is not interested in Organic vs Organic conflict.  It's only interested in Organic/Synthetic conflict.  If you defeat the Catalyst, then it's programming is indeed not fulfilled, so refusing to act doesn't stop it's programming from being fulfilled, since it's not defeated, you are.


The goal is to resolve the Organic/Synthetic conflict.
Harvesting is the method it use's, harvesting is not the goal.

The Method =/= The Goal

That is why the programming is not fulfilled.


Posted Image

Modifié par Hannah Montana, 22 août 2012 - 01:10 .


#80
saracen16

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Anacronian Stryx wrote...

This "machine" as you're so fond of calling it freely admit to being the collective conscious of the reapers - Shepard saw first hand the reapers deceive and manipulate Saren, deceive and manipulate the Rachni to war not to mention the whole cycle is one big exercice in deception and manipulation.


For lack of a better analogy, the Crucible on the Citadel is akin to holding the enemy army general at gunpoint. "Deception" and "manipulation" is impossible in that setting. The system placed by the Reapers, the Citadel and mass relays, would allow societies to develop upon specific paths, upon predictable paths, to fulfill their programming of "preserving it" every thousand years.

#81
robertthebard

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Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

When taking Shepherd's perspective the only choice is refusal really - Shepard in that position and without knowledge at what will actually happen later has no reason at all to believe the star child can be believed in anything, In fact he/she has every reason to not believe a word the star child is saying especially after the star child proclaims that it's a representation of the collective reaper mind.


All very much true. However, assuming conventional victory is impossible (which I believe is true) the alternative to any of the Catalyst's choices is extermination. A chance of any kind of reprieve, regardless of how small a chance it may be, is preferable in my eyes.


It's the reapers after all, A force that corrupts everything around them, Something that Shepard has seen time and time again He/She has absolutely no reason to believe anything the child says and in that light it only make sense to grasp the minimal chance for survival that refusal offers.

It's kind of like if near the end of Lords of the rings Sauron approaches Frodo and offer him three options to end the war... I'm pretty sure Frodo would say " naah I'm gonna try to climb this mountain instead". 

That is a very bad analogy, since climbing the mountain is Destroy.

#82
Anacronian Stryx

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robertthebard wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

When taking Shepherd's perspective the only choice is refusal really - Shepard in that position and without knowledge at what will actually happen later has no reason at all to believe the star child can be believed in anything, In fact he/she has every reason to not believe a word the star child is saying especially after the star child proclaims that it's a representation of the collective reaper mind.


All very much true. However, assuming conventional victory is impossible (which I believe is true) the alternative to any of the Catalyst's choices is extermination. A chance of any kind of reprieve, regardless of how small a chance it may be, is preferable in my eyes.


It's the reapers after all, A force that corrupts everything around them, Something that Shepard has seen time and time again He/She has absolutely no reason to believe anything the child says and in that light it only make sense to grasp the minimal chance for survival that refusal offers.

It's kind of like if near the end of Lords of the rings Sauron approaches Frodo and offer him three options to end the war... I'm pretty sure Frodo would say " naah I'm gonna try to climb this mountain instead". 

That is a very bad analogy, since climbing the mountain is Destroy.


No it's not, Unless climbing the mountain is offered by Sauron.

#83
LiarasShield

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This is just a flame thread to say one ending is better then another hopefully are good friend ninja stan will lock it soon ^_-

#84
saracen16

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Aethyl wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Aethyl wrote...

I will personally always choose Refuse instead of Destroy, Synthesis and Control.


Wow, you got me there, almighty Aethyl. I submit to your non-argument.

How does it feel like to be a mass murderer?


Haha yeah, fear my ultimate power.

More seriously, I personally never agreed on any of the 3 choices that were given to me by this Catalyst.
I don't want my Shepard to become a Reaper god, I don't want to mess with the whole galaxy, by killing every variety and difference in the whole universe. I always enjoyed the clear difference that was made between Synthetics and Organics in the Mass Effect universe. And even with those differences, the organics and synthetics proved themselves to be able to work together, and fight side by side against the global menace, AKA the reapers.
I don't want to render all this evolution meaningless, by thinking "Synthetics and organics must be merged to be able to live together". Also, this whole idea of "merging" makes no sense to me in the Mass Effect universe.
Following this idea, I don't support Destroy, since it basically means saving the Organics by destroying all the Synthetics, even those who supported Shepard till the end.

That's why I personally prefer going down by fighting the conventional way. Yes we may lose everytime, since conventional victory is supposedly impossible, but at least, I won't follow some terms that I ultimately disagree with.

Of course, it's just my opinion.



So far, the only reason I've seen people pick refuse is because they don't believe the other choices to be right.

You are a different person when a gun is pointed to your head. Idealism goes out the drain, and none of the galaxy would want to see that.

#85
Applepie_Svk

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Hannah Montana wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Synthesis is the same as submission, you admit the reapers logic is right and that his interference is needed to break the cycle.


Another fallacy by association. Any of the endings can be interpreted as capitulating to the Reapers. To truly submit to them is to let them exterminate you, as refusal does.

And a synthesis supporter starting a thread talking about realism is a little hypocritical.


A mere blanket statement. There are countless threads that debate synthesis.

This is not one of them.


Funny the Catalyst is the Reapers and he really wanted Synthesis so much he tried it before.
Don't kid yourself, you submit to Reaper ideals.

There is no fallacy by association, you're just in denial.




If you are conqueror you are the one who dictate the conditions, but Catalyst was one who dictate and if you refused, he blew your cycle away. So you either submit to his selfish and flawed agenda or refused and die free, but give a chance to another cycle.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 22 août 2012 - 01:20 .


#86
Ledgend1221

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I'd rather die then screw up the Galaxy forever.

#87
IElitePredatorI

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There is no right or wrong choice. Humanity is unique in the sense that everyone is different from each other whichs means they have different views on things than what someone else might have, which means they will personally choose what appeals the most to them.

Trying to argue your point of why your choice is better to someone isn't going to convince them, they will hold on and defend to what they think is right and target why your choice is bad from their point of view.
I just wish people could accept each other more openly and try to understand why people do things differently from them.

#88
Anacronian Stryx

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saracen16 wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

This "machine" as you're so fond of calling it freely admit to being the collective conscious of the reapers - Shepard saw first hand the reapers deceive and manipulate Saren, deceive and manipulate the Rachni to war not to mention the whole cycle is one big exercice in deception and manipulation.


For lack of a better analogy, the Crucible on the Citadel is akin to holding the enemy army general at gunpoint. "Deception" and "manipulation" is impossible in that setting.

Nonsense if you have a enemy general at gunpoint you would be retarded if you didn't expect him to lie about everything says.

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 22 août 2012 - 01:18 .


#89
LiarasShield

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IElitePredatorI wrote...

There is no right or wrong choice. Humanity is unique in the sense that everyone is different from each other whichs means they have different views on things than what someone else might have, which means they will personally choose what appeals the most to them.

Trying to argue your point of why your choice is better to someone isn't going to convince them, they will hold on and defend to what they think is right and target why your choice is bad from their point of view.
I just wish people could accept each other more openly and try to understand why people do things differently from them.



This is why world peace will never happen everyone believes on what is the right way to do things or what is wrong and right it verries from each individual and trying to say your way is better then someones elses is jsut your own believe and your own idea

If the day ever comes where people can accept that people are different or have different believes that they think are right or wrong I may not live long enough to see the day

Modifié par LiarasShield, 22 août 2012 - 01:22 .


#90
BD Manchild

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IElitePredatorI wrote...

There is no right or wrong choice. Humanity is unique in the sense that everyone is different from each other whichs means they have different views on things than what someone else might have, which means they will personally choose what appeals the most to them.

Trying to argue your point of why your choice is better to someone isn't going to convince them, they will hold on and defend to what they think is right and target why your choice is bad from their point of view.
I just wish people could accept each other more openly and try to understand why people do things differently from them.


From what I've seen on this forum, I'm afraid you're asking for a miracle. As someone else pointed out, I'm sure I'm not going to live to see the day when people actually get over the fact that not everyone shares the same viewpoint as them.

Modifié par BD Manchild, 22 août 2012 - 01:23 .


#91
LilLino

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

Refuse is the wrong choice because you let yourself and everyone you know and love die when you could just shoot the tube and save them all.


So simple and so true. Shepard choosing refuse is a moron who thinks that his ideals are more important than everyone's lives.

I can't really believe why Bioware added this option, no soldier would do that, certainly not a one who accomplished so much as Shepard, it's totally out-of-character, especially the meaningless speech.

#92
saracen16

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Oh, god, I didn't expect someone to write a post just as long if not longer than mine, but I welcome it regardless.

BD Manchild wrote...

I really find it hard to take any arguments made my anti-Refusers seriously. I can see why someone would not pick Refuse, I really can, but every single anti-Refuse post I've seen on these forums has been nothing but ad hominem attacks and holier-than-thou petty insults, apparently unable to counter any argument against them without resorting to said insults and snobbery. The OP is no different, it just uses fancier words to call people who pick the Refuse ending murderers and the scum of the universe.


You know, Manchild, I'm right here. If you have something to say to me, say it to my face.

Okay, now that I've got that out of my system, let me try to articulate exactly why I picked Refuse. This isn't me saying Refuse is the right choice - as far as I'm concerned there is no "right choice" as the three main choices are morally repulsive, thematically revolting and embarrasingly bad from a literary standpoint, while Refuse is woefully rushed and even feeling flat-out insulting in its execution - this is just me describing the thought processes I - or, to be more specific, my Shepard - went through for each ending:


This is the consequence of the action in the universe, no different than the others.

Destroy: Not something my Shepard could do. After all of the time she had spent helping EDI to cope with emotions and evolve beyond her initial programming, and into ensuring reconciliation between the Geth and the Quarians, to ritually sacrifice them, even if the Reapers would die with them, was something she could not do. She'd already stated to Garrus that to reduce the war to maths would make them no better than the Reapers, so committing genocide on an entire species would be gross hypocrisy. Even leaving that aside, what of the long-term implications? If another race of synthetics arises and they inevitably find out that organics would gladly destroy them if it meant saving their own worthless necks, then they would attack organics, thus fulfilling the Starchild's prophecy without any Reaper intervention being necessary.

Control: Again, to choose this would be hypocrisy on Shepard's part. She'd stated repeatedly to the Illusive Man that no-one is ready to wield the kind of power he craves. How does she know something won't go wrong with the whole procedure? She knows it wouldn't be herself in charge; just a pale imitation that might not share her values completely. Even if she did retain control she is highly doubtful that anybody would want to be in the same space as the creatures that had slaughtered everyone they knew, so again conflict seems inevitable in that choice.

Synthesis: To her mind, the most disgusting choice of all. This is essentially acknowledging that the Catalyst's preferred solution is the right one; a solution to a problem which, as far as she's concerned, simply doesn't exist. Forcing that kind of change on everyone in the galaxy without their consent, bringing about what can surely only be stagnation, is reprehensible. Also, aside from sounding completely impractical with no idea of how it works, the way the Catalyst described it sounds suspiciously like indoctrination. What guarantees does she have that the Catalyst - who has basically admitted that it's the leader of the very things she's fighting against - is telling the truth? It's already given her reason to believe that it is untrustworthy, an AI carrying out insane instructions because its creators believed that every other race would fall into the same conflicts and would want this twisted version of immortality. Remember that Shepard doesn't know she's a videogame character, and thus has no reason to believe the Catalyst is right.


Shepard may not know that he/she is a videogame character, but he has no reason to believe the Catalyst is wrong, either. His programming is based on assumptions that have manifested themselves several times in the Mass Effect universe. As for the rest of this part of your post, I suggest you take your qualms with destroy, control, or synthesis elsewhere.

To her mind, none of the choices seem practical. That's why she refused to validate the Catalyst's twisted logic. She doesn't trust the Catalyst. She's not willing to sacrifice billions of Geth, even if the alternative is most likely extinction over the coming decades not only of the Geth but of everyone else. She doesn't believe she can control the Reapers or has any right to. She doesn't believe that even the Reapers' advanced science can change the DNA of every single organism in the universe nor does she believe that it's right for her to impose that on everyone else even if it did work. In any choice, even if what the Catalyst says is true, the foundations of post-war civilisation would be irreversibly stained.


So, what you're saying is that your Shepard believes that sacrificing lives is tantamount to sacrificing morals? No one said that fighting the Reapers would be easy, and no one said that the post-war civilizations would be left unscathed: changing an order that has existed for eons is going to drastically change the universe one way or another, and change all the political, social, and economical spheres of existence.

So she refused. As far as she's concerned the Crucible is a dead end. It's not going to do what she needs it to do. The Allies clearly didn't have enough time to study it and understand it well enough to make it into a tool that destroys the Reapers without harming anyone else. Instead she decided to commit to a long war, even if it's one that the Allies will eventually lose. Shepard is nothing if not a realist; the Reapers almost certainly will triumph and retreat back into dark space. However, with all the resources and allies she's gathered, plus the fact that this cycle has some huge advantages that no other cycle had - for instance, stopping the Reapers' surprise decapitation attack all the way back in ME1 - she's sure that the Reapers will suffer the greatest losses that they have ever had. Bruised and battered, the Reapers would be in a prime position to be finished off by the next cycle.

This outcome wasn't entirely unforseen by Shepard either. She knew that Liara was working on a backup plan. If the Allies are unable to defeat the Reapers in this cycle, she plans to ensure that the next cycle is not scrambling around, like Shepard was, trying to find obscure clues to their defeat. She's been gathering every scrap of anti-Reaper data up to that point and place it all in a position where the Reapers can't find it and still make it available to future races so that, next cycle, the spacefaring races will have millenia to prepare for the Reapers' return and finish them off once and for all, either by being able to figure out how to get the Crucible to destroy the Reapers without any drawbacks or by using something else entirely.


Admittedly, this is a different take on refuse than most of the refusers have had on these boards, and it's commendable. However, what makes you so sure that a solution other than what has been contrived for dozens of cycles (i.e. the Crucible) will be found in the next cycle? What makes you so sure that the next cycle will defeat the Reapers? How many more cycles will be extinguished? These are all uncertainties that none of the races right now are willing to face because their own survival is tantamount to themselves. What value do you place on life?  

In choosing to refuse, Shepard doomed her cycle to almost certain defeat, but she did so knowing that the next cycle will have the tools to defeat the Reapers, without compromise. As far as she's concerned, the price of victory by bowing to the Catalyst's logic is far too high. By refusing to carry out the Catalyst's instructions, she shows that she's willing to play the long game, if that's what it takes to defeat the Reapers. Without Liara's knowledge and backup plan, such a choice would of course be insanity.


As far as I recall, Liara's intentions are to pass on the story of Shepard and the plans for the Crucible. All of what you said is something you're putting up to chance and chance alone. As far as we know, no one knows of the Shepard-Catalyst conversation other than Shepard and the Catalyst. What makes you so sure that the next cycle will have someone who will not choose destroy, control, or synthesis? What makes you so sure that the next cycle will bring up a solution other than the Crucible, the only documented way to stop them? The Crucible uses the technology of the Reapers against them. What makes you so sure that another method will work?

#93
Aethyl

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saracen16 wrote...

Aethyl wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Aethyl wrote...

I will personally always choose Refuse instead of Destroy, Synthesis and Control.


Wow, you got me there, almighty Aethyl. I submit to your non-argument.

How does it feel like to be a mass murderer?


Haha yeah, fear my ultimate power.

More seriously, I personally never agreed on any of the 3 choices that were given to me by this Catalyst.
I don't want my Shepard to become a Reaper god, I don't want to mess with the whole galaxy, by killing every variety and difference in the whole universe. I always enjoyed the clear difference that was made between Synthetics and Organics in the Mass Effect universe. And even with those differences, the organics and synthetics proved themselves to be able to work together, and fight side by side against the global menace, AKA the reapers.
I don't want to render all this evolution meaningless, by thinking "Synthetics and organics must be merged to be able to live together". Also, this whole idea of "merging" makes no sense to me in the Mass Effect universe.
Following this idea, I don't support Destroy, since it basically means saving the Organics by destroying all the Synthetics, even those who supported Shepard till the end.

That's why I personally prefer going down by fighting the conventional way. Yes we may lose everytime, since conventional victory is supposedly impossible, but at least, I won't follow some terms that I ultimately disagree with.

Of course, it's just my opinion.



So far, the only reason I've seen people pick refuse is because they don't believe the other choices to be right.

You are a different person when a gun is pointed to your head. Idealism goes out the drain, and none of the galaxy would want to see that.


Since ultimately, you lose when refusing, yeah, it's usally just considered the lesser of the 4 evils. And same goes for me.

I would have been satisfied by a Pyrrhic conventional victory, but seeing it won't happen, whatever, even refusal seems like a bad choice to me.

Modifié par Aethyl, 22 août 2012 - 01:25 .


#94
saracen16

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Anacronian Stryx wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

This "machine" as you're so fond of calling it freely admit to being the collective conscious of the reapers - Shepard saw first hand the reapers deceive and manipulate Saren, deceive and manipulate the Rachni to war not to mention the whole cycle is one big exercice in deception and manipulation.


For lack of a better analogy, the Crucible on the Citadel is akin to holding the enemy army general at gunpoint. "Deception" and "manipulation" is impossible in that setting.

Nonsense if you have a enemy general at gunpoint you would be retarded if you didn't expect him to lie about everything says.


I don't see any reason for the Catalyst to lie. The quarian-geth conflict, the metacon war, and several other instances like project overlord all support his conclusions. I don't see any reason for him to lie when the Crucible altered the variables for his programming.

#95
Hannah Montana

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saracen16, I just owned 1 of your points not too long ago.

How does that make you feel knowing you were wrong?

Modifié par Hannah Montana, 22 août 2012 - 01:27 .


#96
saracen16

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BD Manchild wrote...

IElitePredatorI wrote...

There is no right or wrong choice. Humanity is unique in the sense that everyone is different from each other whichs means they have different views on things than what someone else might have, which means they will personally choose what appeals the most to them.

Trying to argue your point of why your choice is better to someone isn't going to convince them, they will hold on and defend to what they think is right and target why your choice is bad from their point of view.
I just wish people could accept each other more openly and try to understand why people do things differently from them.


From what I've seen on this forum, I'm afraid you're asking for a miracle. As someone else pointed out, I'm sure I'm not going to live to see the day when people actually get over the fact that not everyone shares the same viewpoint as them.


A fact I'm very well aware of, thank you very much.

My piece is my opinion. Whether you agree with it or not is up to you.

And FYI, I edited the title of this thread... just to clarify that my position is not one of "arrogance" or "snobbery".

Modifié par saracen16, 22 août 2012 - 01:30 .


#97
LiarasShield

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LilLino wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Refuse is the wrong choice because you let yourself and everyone you know and love die when you could just shoot the tube and save them all.


So simple and so true. Shepard choosing refuse is a moron who thinks that his ideals are more important than everyone's lives.

I can't really believe why Bioware added this option, no soldier would do that, certainly not a one who accomplished so much as Shepard, it's totally out-of-character, especially the meaningless speech.


Hmm maybe because some players don't trust the being that has used the reapers to burn the entire galaxy and cause mass genocide every 50 thousand years that might be a reason why  right?

Also some of us are willing to stick to our guns and fight the enemy wether we win or lose

What is the point of sacrificing your morals then what was the point of having them in the first place


If you have to give up who you are as a person why did you even exist in the first place their may be more to refuse then alot of you realize

#98
IElitePredatorI

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LiarasShield wrote...

IElitePredatorI wrote...

There is no right or wrong choice. Humanity is unique in the sense that everyone is different from each other whichs means they have different views on things than what someone else might have, which means they will personally choose what appeals the most to them.

Trying to argue your point of why your choice is better to someone isn't going to convince them, they will hold on and defend to what they think is right and target why your choice is bad from their point of view.
I just wish people could accept each other more openly and try to understand why people do things differently from them.



This is why world peace will never happen everyone believes on what is the right way to do things or what is wrong and right it verries from each individual and trying to say your way is better then someones elses is jsut your own believe and your own idea

If the day ever comes where people can accept that people are different or have different believes that they think are right or wrong I may not live long enough to see the day


I don't think anyone will live to see that day unfortunately.

#99
robertthebard

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Hannah Montana wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Here's a thought:  Instead of throwing out veiled insults to my intelligence, you support your position?  I have cycle upon cycle of harvested civilizations that asked you how it's not fulfilling it's programming, you have "you think it's that limited".  So how about, instead of "it would take too much time for me to make up something so baffling that you couldn't figure it out if you had to" you simply provide some details.  Because quite frankly, if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull**** isn't going to work.  If you want to throw out statements with the logic of "I said so" you are already argueing from a losing position, the lore in game says otherwise.  I can disregard ME 2 and ME 3 and still come out with the same answer.


I never threw out any insults, if you think that then it is because you were ignorant of my point.
I'm not even sure what you said or what your point is.

Part of the programming is to stop Organics and Synthetics from conflict with eachother.
If there is conflict in the galaxy after the catalyst was defeated then his programming was not fulfilled.

It's programming is to resolve Organic/Synthetic conflict.  It's solution is to harvest, this is the goal of it's programming, arrived at by it's own logic.  Refusing to stop it does not stop it from fulfilling it's objective, since it will simply continue to do what it has always done.  It is not interested in Organic vs Organic conflict.  It's only interested in Organic/Synthetic conflict.  If you defeat the Catalyst, then it's programming is indeed not fulfilled, so refusing to act doesn't stop it's programming from being fulfilled, since it's not defeated, you are.


The goal is to resolve the Organic/Synthetic conflict.
Harvesting is the method it use's, harvesting is not the goal.

The Method =/= The Goal

That is why the programming is not fulfilled.


Posted Image

Your gif perfectly describes my reaction to your post:  Is she serious?  However, I can see where this is going to end up, you're going to drag me down to your level and beat me with experience.  Here is the fatal flaw in your logic, and I'll just leave it and go:  If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.  Before you get to the beam in London, you are getting your ass handed to you by the Reapers.  I know, I know, but my Galaxy at War map says we're winning in key areas.  However, the Galaxy map says something else entirely, and I've been told, it doesn't matter how high your EMS is, that's how it looks going to Earth for the Priority mission.  So now, you're standing there, with 3 options that can stop the madness, you choose to ignore them.  This doesn't require metagame knowledge to figure out what's going to happen next.  In order to not "appease" the Reapers by choosing a solution to the problem, you have elected to appease the Reapers by allowing them to continue on as they have for countless cycles before this one.  You see this as defeating them, and I am glad that you are not in a position of political power, because if you were, whatever country you are from is doomed, because if you think laying down and accepting defeat is a victory, that country is in trouble if a war starts.

#100
saracen16

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Hannah Montana wrote...

saracen16, I just owned 1 of your points not too long ago.

How does that make you feel knowing you were wrong?


Your post was essentially the same as that of Anacronian's response to mine.

Why should I reply to the same argument twice?