374 réponses à ce sujet

[Hannah Montana]

I ain't even gonna read, that.
The Goal =/= The Method.

Get over it.

[Anacronian Stryx]

LilLino wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Refuse is the wrong choice because you let yourself and everyone you know and love die when you could just shoot the tube and save them all.

So simple and so true. Shepard choosing refuse is a moron who thinks that his ideals are more important than everyone's lives.

I can't really believe why Bioware added this option, no soldier would do that, certainly not a one who accomplished so much as Shepard, it's totally out-of-character, especially the meaningless speech.

Shepard who actually belives what the reapers tells him is not only a moron but a complete out of character moment from anything that has happend so far in the games.

Shepard has always expressed complete defiance to the reapers, from the talk with Sovereign to the talk with harbinger in arrival.. but now all of the sudden he/she believes what they say and willingly grabs some big electrical handles or jumps in big goddamn energy beam on nothing but their word... yeah right. 

[Hannah Montana]

saracen16 wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

saracen16, I just owned 1 of your points not too long ago.

How does that make you feel knowing you were wrong?

Your post was essentially the same as that of Anacronian's response to mine.

Why should I reply to the same argument twice?

I didn't see him talking about fulfilling the programming so sorry if I missed that.
But you were wrong, the catalyst does not fulfill his programming. 

[saracen16]

Hannah Montana wrote...

I ain't even gonna read, that.
The Goal =/= The Method.

Get over it.

No one ever said that, but the ends sometimes do justify the means, especially when the cost for more acceptable means is too high to consider as a solution. Refusing the Crucible in this cycle means that the Reapers will adapt to such a solution in the next cycle, and make it even more difficult for organics and synthetics to stop them. If you are not willing to pay the price for ending the Reaper threat, then you have surrendered to them.

[Darth Asriel]

Refuse as a choice is actually the most logical. I find extinction preferable to submission. Synthesis is not an option. I just spent 25-30 hrs telling TIM how control was wrong and dangerous. Why would I want to do it all of a sudden? Destroy works, but I still find its implementation to be sloppy.

Refuse is freedom. I am choosing to bow to no one. I choose to live or die on my terms. We will fight to protect what we are to our last breath. A united galaxy, collectively giving glowboy and his toys the finger until one of us is gone. Its a fitting end. And if you honestly look at the entire series, its what Shep would do. Its what his allies would want. BW should have allowed Shepard to rally everyone with one final speech. Telling them the crucible is not an option, and the cost for it's use is too high. Reminding everyone that if this is our last day alive, if it is inevitable that the Reapers win, then make them pay for every inch! Make sure they always remember our cycle!

*BW I give you permission to use that speech. Just add that to the refuse ending and you and I are all good.

Modifié par Darth Asriel, 22 août 2012 - 01:40 .

[Hannah Montana]

saracen16 wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

I ain't even gonna read, that.
The Goal =/= The Method.

Get over it.

No one ever said that.

robertthetard did.

[saracen16]

Hannah Montana wrote...

I didn't see him talking about fulfilling the programming so sorry if I missed that.
But you were wrong, the catalyst does not fulfill his programming. 

I think robertthebard argued this point, already. That the Reapers continue to reap and prevent tech singularity is, by definition, fulfillment of the programming. Allowing the cycle to continue means that the Catalyst is fulfilling its programming of bringing peace. It's just that with the Crucible, you completely fulfill its programming and the Reaper cycle ends.

[LiarasShield]

Darth Asriel wrote...

Refuse as a choice is actually the not logical. I find extinction preferable to submission. Synthesis is not an option. I just spent 25-30 hrs telling TIM how control was wrong and dangerous. Why would I want to do it all of a sudden? Destroy works, but I still find its implementation to be sloppy.

Refuse is freedom. I am choosing to bow to no one. I choose to live or die on my terms. We will fight to protect what we are to our last breath. A united galaxy, collectively giving glowboy and his toys the finger until one of us is gone. Its a fitting end. And if you honestly look at the entire series, its what Shep would do. Its what his allies would want. BW should have allowed Shepard to rally everyone with one final speech. Telling them the crucible is not an option, and the cost for it's use is too high. Reminding everyone that if this is our last day alive, if it is inevitable that the Reapers win, then make them pay for every inch! Make sure they always remember our cycle!

*BW I give you permission to use that speech. Just add that to the refuse ending and you and I are all good.

Can I add you as a friend?

[Anacronian Stryx]

saracen16 wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

This "machine" as you're so fond of calling it freely admit to being the collective conscious of the reapers - Shepard saw first hand the reapers deceive and manipulate Saren, deceive and manipulate the Rachni to war not to mention the whole cycle is one big exercice in deception and manipulation.

For lack of a better analogy, the Crucible on the Citadel is akin to holding the enemy army general at gunpoint. "Deception" and "manipulation" is impossible in that setting.

Nonsense if you have a enemy general at gunpoint you would be retarded if you didn't expect him to lie about everything says.

I don't see any reason for the Catalyst to lie. The quarian-geth conflict, the metacon war, and several other instances like project overlord all support his conclusions. I don't see any reason for him to lie when the Crucible altered the variables for his programming.

Doesn't matter if you can see a reason for the crucible to lie or not, What matters if Shepard would expect the reapers to lie and that answer can only be a big resounding yes.

Shepard has absolutely no reason to believe anything the reaper collective conscious says, In fact he/she has every reason NOT to believe what the reaper collective conscious says.

[Hannah Montana]

saracen16 wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

I ain't even gonna read, that.
The Goal =/= The Method.

Get over it.

No one ever said that, but the ends sometimes do justify the means, especially when the cost for more acceptable means is too high to consider as a solution. Refusing the Crucible in this cycle means that the Reapers will adapt to such a solution in the next cycle, and make it even more difficult for organics and synthetics to stop them. If you are not willing to pay the price for ending the Reaper threat, then you have surrendered to them.

No one surrendered to the Reapers, the fight continued and the catalyst was eventually defeated. 
You should use better words.

[zambot]

I agree that principle is not a good reason to pick refusal. There is however, a perfectly valid reason to pick refusal: you don't trust the catalyst. Let's put this in perspective, and for simplicity let's say you don't have enough EMS to get synthesis.

1. You get to the citadel, where you meet a mysterious being. It tells you that it is the leader of the reapers.
2. It further tells you that you have successfully built enough power in the crucible to defeat the reapers.
3. It then tells you you can kill all the reapers by blowing up part of your weapon.
4. Let's say that again. The leader of the reapers, your sworn enemy, is asking you to shoot at the thing you've been building for months.
5. Or, just after defeating TIM, he tells you you can assume control of the reapers. It wouldn't work for TIM, but don't worry: trust me on this, it will work for you.

Hold on here. This is a really big pill to swallow here. My options are to fry myself on some controls in the hopes that this crazy control scheme will work OR to start shooting things. All because I suddenly think the leader of the reapers is being honest with me.

Maybe Shepard should choose NOT to listen to the reapers, tell the kid to sod off, and look for a solution on his/her own.

[robertthebard]

Hannah Montana wrote...

I ain't even gonna read, that.
The Goal =/= The Method.

Get over it.

Wow, you just owned me there, how am I ever going to recover?

Pssst... Do you think your namesake became a recording artist or tv star without some kind of plan?  I know, it just dropped in her lap because daddy had one song, right?  You cannot achieve a goal w/out some kind of plan.  The way that you achieve a goal, a method, is every bit as much a part of the goal as the goal itself.  But hey, go ahead and flip your hair again, you know, it works on those teenage boys.  Sorry, you're going to have to bring more than that to this dialog.  Don't post a pouty gif next, it doesn't work when my granddaughters try it, why should it work for you.  I realize that this is your standard method for achieving your goal, but hey, you're going to have to find another cycle to manipulate.

[Darth Asriel]

LiarasShield wrote...

Darth Asriel wrote...

Refuse as a choice is actually the not logical. I find extinction preferable to submission. Synthesis is not an option. I just spent 25-30 hrs telling TIM how control was wrong and dangerous. Why would I want to do it all of a sudden? Destroy works, but I still find its implementation to be sloppy.

Refuse is freedom. I am choosing to bow to no one. I choose to live or die on my terms. We will fight to protect what we are to our last breath. A united galaxy, collectively giving glowboy and his toys the finger until one of us is gone. Its a fitting end. And if you honestly look at the entire series, its what Shep would do. Its what his allies would want. BW should have allowed Shepard to rally everyone with one final speech. Telling them the crucible is not an option, and the cost for it's use is too high. Reminding everyone that if this is our last day alive, if it is inevitable that the Reapers win, then make them pay for every inch! Make sure they always remember our cycle!

*BW I give you permission to use that speech. Just add that to the refuse ending and you and I are all good.

Can I add you as a friend?

Yes you can! 

[Hannah Montana]

saracen16 wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

I didn't see him talking about fulfilling the programming so sorry if I missed that.
But you were wrong, the catalyst does not fulfill his programming. 

I think robertthebard argued this point, already. That the Reapers continue to reap and prevent tech singularity is, by definition, fulfillment of the programming. Allowing the cycle to continue means that the Catalyst is fulfilling its programming of bringing peace. It's just that with the Crucible, you completely fulfill its programming and the Reaper cycle ends.

But they don't continue to reap and they can't prevent a tech singularity because they don't exist anymore.
By definition they did not fulfill their programming.

[saracen16]

Darth Asriel wrote...

Refuse as a choice is actually the not logical. I find extinction preferable to submission.

Submission and extinction are one and the same in "refusal": you are allowing the Reaper cycle to continue.

Refuse is freedom. I am choosing to bow to no one. I choose to live or die on my terms. We will fight to protect what we are to our last breath. A united galaxy, collectively giving glowboy and his toys the finger until one of us is gone. Its a fitting end.

This is chest-pounding jargon and military bravado. This is the same empty talk that Saddam Hussein used against the Americans invading Iraq, and it didn't help him.

As for the end, you do choose your own terms: the Crucible is the one dictating the options, not the Catalyst.

And if you honestly look at the entire series, its what Shep would do.

Tell that to the Shepards who chose to control/preserve the Collector Base. They would disagree. Tell that to the Sheps who decided that killing the colonists on Feros was alright. They'd disagree, too. Don't you ****ing dare tell me how MY Shepard would act in that situation. If your Shepard chooses to act the way you did, fine, but don't assume that it's what another one's Shepard wants.

Its what his allies would want.

As far as I know, Hackett wants dead Reapers, and the other civilizations of the galaxy, including the Asari, Turians, Salarians, Geth, and Quarians, want the Crucible to be deployed. I fail to see your point, choosing to let everyone die a death they didn't want.

They didn't go all the way to Earth to die. They went all the way to Earth to WIN.

BW should have allowed Shepard to rally everyone with one final speech.

The whole "and I'll die knowing that" bit didn't satisfy your bloodlust?

Telling them the crucible is not an option, and the cost for it's use is too high. Reminding everyone that if this is our last day alive, if it is inevitable that the Reapers win, then make them pay for every inch! Make sure they always remember our cycle!

That won't matter in the long run. The Reapers will exterminate our cycle regardless of the confidence we have that is born of ignorance. The cycle will continue in this situation. It is inevitable. You can't stop inevitability.

I would rather be the cosmic winds than the dust that struggles against them.

[IElitePredatorI]

LiarasShield wrote...

Darth Asriel wrote...

Refuse as a choice is actually the not logical. I find extinction preferable to submission. Synthesis is not an option. I just spent 25-30 hrs telling TIM how control was wrong and dangerous. Why would I want to do it all of a sudden? Destroy works, but I still find its implementation to be sloppy.

Refuse is freedom. I am choosing to bow to no one. I choose to live or die on my terms. We will fight to protect what we are to our last breath. A united galaxy, collectively giving glowboy and his toys the finger until one of us is gone. Its a fitting end. And if you honestly look at the entire series, its what Shep would do. Its what his allies would want. BW should have allowed Shepard to rally everyone with one final speech. Telling them the crucible is not an option, and the cost for it's use is too high. Reminding everyone that if this is our last day alive, if it is inevitable that the Reapers win, then make them pay for every inch! Make sure they always remember our cycle!

*BW I give you permission to use that speech. Just add that to the refuse ending and you and I are all good.

Can I add you as a friend?

^ These.

[Jamesui]

The OP's realist-idealist dichotomy presumes a reliable catalyst. Considering he is a self-admittedly rampant AI, it could very well be that he's deceiving Shepard. Then the choice to refuse is not refusing a guaranteed solution. Rather, it's choosing a known quantity over throwing the dice by handing the starbrat the reins to your superweapon. In this scenario, the idealist is the one trusting the genocidal intelligence. The realist is the one who accepts that this cycle is probably hosed and who resolves to at least make the Reaper's victory Pyrrhic.

Modifié par Jamesui, 22 août 2012 - 01:44 .

[LiarasShield]

zambot wrote...

I agree that principle is not a good reason to pick refusal. There is however, a perfectly valid reason to pick refusal: you don't trust the catalyst. Let's put this in perspective, and for simplicity let's say you don't have enough EMS to get synthesis.

1. You get to the citadel, where you meet a mysterious being. It tells you that it is the leader of the reapers.
2. It further tells you that you have successfully built enough power in the crucible to defeat the reapers.
3. It then tells you you can kill all the reapers by blowing up part of your weapon.
4. Let's say that again. The leader of the reapers, your sworn enemy, is asking you to shoot at the thing you've been building for months.
5. Or, just after defeating TIM, he tells you you can assume control of the reapers. It wouldn't work for TIM, but don't worry: trust me on this, it will work for you.

Hold on here. This is a really big pill to swallow here. My options are to fry myself on some controls in the hopes that this crazy control scheme will work OR to start shooting things. All because I suddenly think the leader of the reapers is being honest with me.

Maybe Shepard should choose NOT to listen to the reapers, tell the kid to sod off, and look for a solution on his/her own.

This so much


Also to counter sars arguement shepard didn't know anything about synthesis and was fightig the illusive man during the course of the entire mass effect 3 game about why controling the reapers is wrong or that it wouldn't work or that it wouldn't be enough to control them and it has never worked in the past so why would it start now?

Also shepard him or herself fought the illusive mand the entire time about it so why would this option even be considered as a choice?

[saracen16]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Doesn't matter if you can see a reason for the crucible to lie or not, What matters if Shepard would expect the reapers to lie and that answer can only be a big resounding yes.

I wouldn't expect the Catalyst, a being I never saw before, to lie. As a machine guided by logic, its variables have been altered. There is no reason to believe that any of his statements are deception simply because he is under the control of the Crucible. He did not create the Crucible, so it's not his solution. He turned his creators into Reapers after having tried many solutions, including one similar to synthesis. He didn't deceive them. He is merely carrying out his programming, regardless of the cost. It doesn't consider our morals or our ambitions. Hence, it can not lie.

[saracen16]

Hannah Montana wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

I ain't even gonna read, that.
The Goal =/= The Method.

Get over it.

No one ever said that, but the ends sometimes do justify the means, especially when the cost for more acceptable means is too high to consider as a solution. Refusing the Crucible in this cycle means that the Reapers will adapt to such a solution in the next cycle, and make it even more difficult for organics and synthetics to stop them. If you are not willing to pay the price for ending the Reaper threat, then you have surrendered to them.

No one surrendered to the Reapers, the fight continued and the catalyst was eventually defeated. 
You should use better words.

But this cycle surrendered to the Reapers if Shepard refuses. It's that plain and simple. Did Germany lose WWI to win WWII?

[robertthebard]

Hannah Montana wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

I didn't see him talking about fulfilling the programming so sorry if I missed that.
But you were wrong, the catalyst does not fulfill his programming. 

I think robertthebard argued this point, already. That the Reapers continue to reap and prevent tech singularity is, by definition, fulfillment of the programming. Allowing the cycle to continue means that the Catalyst is fulfilling its programming of bringing peace. It's just that with the Crucible, you completely fulfill its programming and the Reaper cycle ends.

But they don't continue to reap and they can't prevent a tech singularity because they don't exist anymore.
By definition they did not fulfill their programming.

Hey look, it's the pouty gif, or might as well be.  What it really represents is "Uh, what did he say?  Didn't flipping my hair make him forget he had a valid point that I didn't understand".

If you choose Refusal, the cycle does not end, until all tech advanced life is harvested.  It's Game Over because you lose.  This is why it's now up to the next cycle to defeat the Reapers.  You don't get to say "No, I'm not choosing anything, go back to Dark Space and leave us alone".  That's not how it works, although that is what you seem to think.

[LiarasShield]

saracen16 wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

I ain't even gonna read, that.
The Goal =/= The Method.

Get over it.

No one ever said that, but the ends sometimes do justify the means, especially when the cost for more acceptable means is too high to consider as a solution. Refusing the Crucible in this cycle means that the Reapers will adapt to such a solution in the next cycle, and make it even more difficult for organics and synthetics to stop them. If you are not willing to pay the price for ending the Reaper threat, then you have surrendered to them.

No one surrendered to the Reapers, the fight continued and the catalyst was eventually defeated. 
You should use better words.

But this cycle surrendered to the Reapers if Shepard refuses. It's that plain and simple. Did Germany lose WWI to win WWII?

Also to counter sars arguement shepard didn't know anything about synthesis and was fightig the illusive man during the course of the entire mass effect 3 game about why controling the reapers is wrong or that it wouldn't work or that it wouldn't be enough to control them and it has never worked in the past so why would it start now?

Also shepard him or herself fought the illusive mand the entire time about it so why would this option even be considered as a choice?

[saracen16]

Hannah Montana wrote...

But they don't continue to reap and they can't prevent a tech singularity because they don't exist anymore.
By definition they did not fulfill their programming.

Actually, they did: destroy means that no synthetics exist, hence ending technology only temporarily. Control means that Shepard uses the Reapers to maintain the peace. Synthetics means that organics and synthetics as well as the fundamental differences between them are abolished, hence avoiding conflict and fulfilling its programming. Refusal means that the cycle continues. All of them involve capitulating to the Reapers in one way or another.

[Anacronian Stryx]

saracen16 wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Doesn't matter if you can see a reason for the crucible to lie or not, What matters if Shepard would expect the reapers to lie and that answer can only be a big resounding yes.

I wouldn't expect the Catalyst, a being I never saw before, to lie. As a machine guided by logic, its variables have been altered. There is no reason to believe that any of his statements are deception simply because he is under the control of the Crucible. He did not create the Crucible, so it's not his solution. He turned his creators into Reapers after having tried many solutions, including one similar to synthesis. He didn't deceive them. He is merely carrying out his programming, regardless of the cost. It doesn't consider our morals or our ambitions. Hence, it can not lie.

It freely admits to being the reapers collective conscious..reapers who has been manipulating and deceiving the galaxy for millions of years.. and you would't expect it to lie..okay.

Edit : really not much else to say..except i got a cheep apartment for sale on hawaii...give me your bank info and lets make a deal.

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 22 août 2012 - 01:54 .

[Hannah Montana]

saracen16 wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

But they don't continue to reap and they can't prevent a tech singularity because they don't exist anymore.
By definition they did not fulfill their programming.

Actually, they did: destroy means that no synthetics exist, hence ending technology only temporarily. Control means that Shepard uses the Reapers to maintain the peace. Synthetics means that organics and synthetics as well as the fundamental differences between them are abolished, hence avoiding conflict and fulfilling its programming. Refusal means that the cycle continues. All of them involve capitulating to the Reapers in one way or another.

Temporarily doesn't fulfill the programming.
The issue the catalyst had is not resolved.

Modifié par Hannah Montana, 22 août 2012 - 01:52 .