374 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

Hannah Montana wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

I really don't see how saying the Reapers were defeated in Refuse is an outside source.

Because no where in the game is stated that they are?  The only place it's stated that this is the case is headcanon, which is an outside source, and fanfiction, which is also an outside source.  If beating the Reapers through Refusal was a possibility, this forum would damn near be a ghost town most days.

Well we know Shepard didn't choose so we know for a fact he didn't have a crazy Indoctrination dream.
So everything that happened after is factual of what happened.

Life went on peacefully and we're told the Reapers were defeated without choosing a crazy choice offered to us.

Care to link a vid of that?  I'd like to see "Life went on peacefully", since watching what transpires on the platform during SC's exposition, there's not much peace going on.  Choosing Refusal just means that it continues as it's going when you got up there.  So if you mean peace of the grave, then sure, I'll buy that, but that is not a win, in that when they are done harvesting/wiping out tech advanced civilization, they are going back to Dark Space.

[Yakko77]

The biggest problem with Refuse Ending (other than it being a F U, you all die ending seeming made to spite for those clamoring for a new ending) is that it simply delays the use of the Catalyst. Which color did the next Cycle choose? Seeming Red but I can't be sure of course.

This can all be fixed if BW would just make the result based on your EMS.

[Pitznik]

LiarasShield wrote...


Seems like you keep making endless excuses in order for you to feel right they can not harvest what is dead if everyone dies in refuse they can't harvest anybody to make more reapers so you still don't have that much of a arguement love

Civilians are alive. Civilians are going to be harvested. Refusal doesn't kill everyone at once. Refusal is not a sudden death, it is slow agony, with Reapers more and more in control as allied forces shrink.

Seriously, do you even read posts you're answering to?

[Hannah Montana]

robertthebard wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

I really don't see how saying the Reapers were defeated in Refuse is an outside source.

Because no where in the game is stated that they are?  The only place it's stated that this is the case is headcanon, which is an outside source, and fanfiction, which is also an outside source.  If beating the Reapers through Refusal was a possibility, this forum would damn near be a ghost town most days.

Well we know Shepard didn't choose so we know for a fact he didn't have a crazy Indoctrination dream.
So everything that happened after is factual of what happened.

Life went on peacefully and we're told the Reapers were defeated without choosing a crazy choice offered to us.

Care to link a vid of that?  I'd like to see "Life went on peacefully", since watching what transpires on the platform during SC's exposition, there's not much peace going on.  Choosing Refusal just means that it continues as it's going when you got up there.  So if you mean peace of the grave, then sure, I'll buy that, but that is not a win, in that when they are done harvesting/wiping out tech advanced civilization, they are going back to Dark Space.

By peacefully I meant without getting exterminated by the Reapers.
That cycle beat the Reapers so now they can live in peace from the threat of the Reapers.

Modifié par Hannah Montana, 22 août 2012 - 03:32 .

[saracen16]

Jamesui wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

And your post assumes another dichotomy, one found in war: the one between the allied combatant and the enemy. This is not a traditional war story where organics vs. organics are involved. 

I presume allied forces against their enemies because I don't see how to otherwise classify the armies we've raised and the reapers. As for the catalyst itself, I see no reason to consider the force controlling the enemy as anything but the enemy.

It's this close-mindedness that drives all conflict: when you establish one force as an enemy and never a potential ally, tool, or friend, you are bound to have problems.

 

I don't think it's even remotely safe to make assumptions about thenature of an AI programmed by an unknown race millions of years ago, especially one that obviously escaped whatever safety shackles said race had placed on it. Considering its early deviation, it's highly plausible that the Catalyst AI has changed radically in some millions of years.  Furthermore, we've explicit counterexamples in our own cycle. Remember the presidium AI from the first game? TL;DR 1: Malevolence and ambition are not out of the question.

The Presidium AI was a rogue AI, and yes, it is likely that the Catalyst may have gone rogue as well. However, with an AI that has stated its precise programming parameters, to preserve organic and synthetic life in the long run, I doubt that it would have gone rogue. A rogue AI's primary program by definition is self-preservation, and in the light of what the Citadel has to say about AI emplacements, I doubt it would go down quietly.

And, as you yourself point out, any means towards its end are kosher. Dishonesty and deceit are good to go, then.

"All war is deception." Sun Tzu knows that misinformation is a tool used to win a war. Doesn't make you evil.

That is not well known at all. It is stressed throughout the game that we don't have any idea what the Crucible will do. The only word we get as its end function is given by the catalyst AI. Without metagaming, we have no reason to trust him.

I disagree. The entire game stressed that the Crucible is the only way to stop it, but what is uncertain is how it will stop the Reapers. Even Hackett says so in the beginning... "the only way to stop them".

Keep in mind that our crucible is essentially the end product of millions of years of technological telephone. Considering how drastically a phrase can be distorted over twenty iterations of the real-life children's game when the participants speak the same language, imagine how the plans may have been misread, distorted, or repurposed in a couple thousand iterations. Remember also that the reapers have been listening in on this particular line.

I don't think so: those beliefs are put to rest when the Catalyst made it clear that the Reapers had nothing to do with the plans of the Crucible.

It's remarked several times (by Hacket, Liara, etc.) that the Crucible's effects are uncertain beyond their magnitude. TL;DR 2: The Crucible's function is a complete unknown.

But its end-goal is known.

Furthermore, I can't help feeling you're strawmanning me. My orignal argument was not presented in terms of an idealism/realism split. I explicitly rejected the idea that the pro/con arguments w.r.t. Refusal characteristically idealistic and realistic, respectively. I can understand the confusion considering my remarks about a Pyrrhic victory, so I'll rephrase that goal in terms of giving the next cycle a better shot.

We already know from codices that we've already had significant success taking out Reaper capital ships and destroyers (Five Minute Plan, Miracle at Palaven, etc.), and we know that the construction of a new capital ship takes an immense number of processed sapients, with one popular figure in the lore being one race per Reaper dreadnought. With that in mind,  it's not unreasonable to believe we'd at least destroy more of the Reaper than they can regrow in this harvest. 

TL;DR 3: There is utility in fighting for the next cycle. 

The codices also tell us that the Reaper capabilities far exceed those of the organics, and that the tactics that we carry out against the Reapers can not be carried out indeterminately. The Reapers do not rely on supply lines and home planets, and they can obliterate us and bleed us eventually. Furthermore, their numbers stem from countless eons (billions of years divided by 50,000 years means at least 10,000 if not 100,000 Reaper capital ships and God knows how many destroyers), and to sacrifice what limited resources we have (at most only 85 dreadnoughts, and some cruisers, capital ships, home planets, supply lines, all that are dwindling by the hour etc.) while the Reapers grow stronger with more of our troops at their disposal.

If you believe that continuing the fight conventionally is useful, that's your choice, not mine.

[LiarasShield]

Pitznik wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...


Seems like you keep making endless excuses in order for you to feel right they can not harvest what is dead if everyone dies in refuse they can't harvest anybody to make more reapers so you still don't have that much of a arguement love

Civilians are alive. Civilians are going to be harvested. Refusal doesn't kill everyone at once. Refusal is not a sudden death, it is slow agony, with Reapers more and more in control as allied forces shrink.

Seriously, do you even read posts you're answering to?

But if everyone tries to fight the reapers or they end up really having to kill everybody they won't be able to harvest anyone it is just you making excuses for you to be more right over everyone else

[anmiro]

If there is one idea the entire trilogy drives home, it is that the reapers are a vastly superior force. I think the refusal ending is perfect the way it is. If you choose the refusal ending, you are going against the advice of every military leader you speak to throughout the course of the game.

[Pitznik]

LiarasShield wrote...

But if everyone tries to fight the reapers or they end up really having to kill everybody they won't be able to harvest anyone it is just you making excuses for you to be more right over everyone else

You don't really know much about wars, do you? Not everyone even CAN fight, even if they are brave enough. You can subdue someone without killing him, being 2 kilometre long starship helps.

Modifié par Pitznik, 22 août 2012 - 03:39 .

[Jassu1979]

saracen16 wrote...
Who are you to say what my Shepard stands for?

Is there a Shepard who stands for collaboration with the enemy, choosing the path of least resistance and embracing the Old Machines' gifts on their terms?

You're refusing the story and the lore, you lose every time. Why couldn't I save Ashley and Kaidan together? Why couldn't I leave the Rachni to the council? Why couldn't I save the Council WITHOUT sacrificing too many Alliance ships? The limitations placed on our choices are there for a reason. Grow up and accept the consequences of your actions.

None of the examples you mention are even remotely similar to the ending debacle. The heart of the matter is: whoever wrote the ending refused the story and the lore, breaking any hope of maintaining narrative coherence or secondary belief.

[LiarasShield]

Pitznik wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

But if everyone tries to fight the reapers or they end up really having to kill everybody they won't be able to harvest anyone it is just you making excuses for you to be more right over everyone else

You don't really know much about wars, do you? Not everyone even CAN fight, even if they are brave enough. You can subdue someone without killing him, being 2 kilometre long starship helps.

Yes but during the course of all three games we never saw any peaceful ways to subdue anybody right this is you headcannoning peaceful ways we have only seen indoctrinated forces kill other forces or the reapers firing their laser beams

[Comsky159]

Lol if you chose refuse why wouldn't you just wait for the timer to run down in the Arrival dlc. Same 'principle'.

Modifié par Comsky159, 22 août 2012 - 03:42 .

[Applepie_Svk]

Comsky159 wrote...

Lol if you chose refuse why wouldn't you just wait for the timer to run down in the Arrival dlc. Same 'principle'.

LoL you clearly missed the point of words: SAME PRINCIPLE...

[Pitznik]

LiarasShield wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

But if everyone tries to fight the reapers or they end up really having to kill everybody they won't be able to harvest anyone it is just you making excuses for you to be more right over everyone else

You don't really know much about wars, do you? Not everyone even CAN fight, even if they are brave enough. You can subdue someone without killing him, being 2 kilometre long starship helps.

Yes but during the course of all three games we never saw any peaceful ways to subdue anybody right this is you headcannoning peaceful ways we have only seen indoctrinated forces kill other forces or the reapers firing their laser beams

Indoctrination. Manipulation through indoctrinated individuals. Terror. Non-deadly force.

Once allied military forces are defeated, Reapers are in full control of the situation.

[Hannah Montana]

Comsky159 wrote...

Lol if you chose refuse why wouldn't you just wait for the timer to run down in the Arrival dlc. Same 'principle'.

But then Liara would not have the Normandy and the next cycle would not have the data they need from Liara that she was able to get in the 6 months and after to guide them to victory. 
And we would not have been able to take down as many Reapers.

[LiarasShield]

Pitznik wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

But if everyone tries to fight the reapers or they end up really having to kill everybody they won't be able to harvest anyone it is just you making excuses for you to be more right over everyone else

You don't really know much about wars, do you? Not everyone even CAN fight, even if they are brave enough. You can subdue someone without killing him, being 2 kilometre long starship helps.

Yes but during the course of all three games we never saw any peaceful ways to subdue anybody right this is you headcannoning peaceful ways we have only seen indoctrinated forces kill other forces or the reapers firing their laser beams

Indoctrination. Manipulation through indoctrinated individuals. Terror. Non-deadly force.

Once allied military forces are defeated, Reapers are in full control of the situation.

But you're speculating peaceful measures none were taking as we have seen banshees have killed many other asaris brutes have killed many other krogan marauders have killed many other turians

We've seen reapers fire their lasers all through the course of me3


Even indoctrinated illusive man didn't use any peaceful measures he killed anderson and sure as **** was going to kill us

no pitznik stop headcannoing what the reapers have been doing lol

[Jassu1979]

robertthebard wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

I really don't see how saying the Reapers were defeated in Refuse is an outside source.

Because no where in the game is stated that they are?

Start at 2:40.

"They fought a terrible war so we wouldn't have to."
"And that's why we have peace?"
"Yes. Without everything they accomplished, without the information they passed down, we too would be threatened."

-> The Reapers are defeated by the next Cycle.

[Yakko77]

Jassu1979 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

I really don't see how saying the Reapers were defeated in Refuse is an outside source.

Because no where in the game is stated that they are?

Start at 2:40.

"They fought a terrible war so we wouldn't have to."
"And that's why we have peace?"
"Yes. Without everything they accomplished, without the information they passed down, we too would be threatened."

-> The Reapers are defeated by the next Cycle.

Yes but how?  Did they simply use the Catalyst when Shep wouldn't?  If so then trillions died in Sheps cycle for nothing.

[Pitznik]

LiarasShield wrote...

But you're speculating peaceful measures none were taking as we have seen banshees have killed many other asaris brutes have killed many other krogan marauders have killed many other turians

We've seen reapers fire their lasers all through the course of me3


Even indoctrinated illusive man didn't use any peaceful measures he killed anderson and sure as **** was going to kill us

no pitznik stop headcannoing what the reapers have been doing lol

There are plenty of mentions of Reapers' concentration camps. Why would they keep them alive instead of shooting their lasers? Answer is easy.

Reapers are harvesting when they can, killing when they can't. They will have their human Reaper for the next cycle.

[Pitznik]

Jassu1979 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

I really don't see how saying the Reapers were defeated in Refuse is an outside source.

Because no where in the game is stated that they are?

Start at 2:40.

"They fought a terrible war so we wouldn't have to."
"And that's why we have peace?"
"Yes. Without everything they accomplished, without the information they passed down, we too would be threatened."

-> The Reapers are defeated by the next Cycle.

The Reapers are defeated by -some- cycle. You don't know how.

[Hannah Montana]

Yakko77 wrote...

Jassu1979 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

I really don't see how saying the Reapers were defeated in Refuse is an outside source.

Because no where in the game is stated that they are?

Start at 2:40.

"They fought a terrible war so we wouldn't have to."
"And that's why we have peace?"
"Yes. Without everything they accomplished, without the information they passed down, we too would be threatened."

-> The Reapers are defeated by the next Cycle.

Yes but how?  Did they simply use the Catalyst when Shep wouldn't?  If so then trillions died in Sheps cycle for nothing.

It's not the point.
We know for a fact that the Reapers were  defeated.
In the other endings we don't know exactly what happened because you handed youself over to the choices the leader of Reapers gave you.
It could all be an indoctrinated dream, people headcanon that what they see is too be taken literally.

Modifié par Hannah Montana, 22 août 2012 - 03:56 .

[LiarasShield]

Pitznik wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

But you're speculating peaceful measures none were taking as we have seen banshees have killed many other asaris brutes have killed many other krogan marauders have killed many other turians

We've seen reapers fire their lasers all through the course of me3


Even indoctrinated illusive man didn't use any peaceful measures he killed anderson and sure as **** was going to kill us

no pitznik stop headcannoing what the reapers have been doing lol

There are plenty of mentions of Reapers' concentration camps. Why would they keep them alive instead of shooting their lasers? Answer is easy.

Reapers are harvesting when they can, killing when they can't. They will have their human Reaper for the next cycle.

Its the same reason I don't consider twitter as canon if it isn't shown in the game then it is most like very non plausible that it happended since no forces were ever being captured in the game only indoctrinated to kill other forces or for the indoctrinated to kill others which the illusive man does

It shows no proof of the reapers wanting to keep anybody alive for harvesting or vice versa their intent seems to be to kill us all and if they do I die free not picking the being who controls the reapers in the first place to burn our galaxy and if we all do die we all doe die free because you can't make a reaper ship without the advance races being alive so yes I will die free fighting for what I believe in and not believeing in the reapers

Sorry you don't share my sentiment

But it is your ending to choose for your own shepard

[robertthebard]

LiarasShield wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

But if everyone tries to fight the reapers or they end up really having to kill everybody they won't be able to harvest anyone it is just you making excuses for you to be more right over everyone else

You don't really know much about wars, do you? Not everyone even CAN fight, even if they are brave enough. You can subdue someone without killing him, being 2 kilometre long starship helps.

Yes but during the course of all three games we never saw any peaceful ways to subdue anybody right this is you headcannoning peaceful ways we have only seen indoctrinated forces kill other forces or the reapers firing their laser beams

I suggest you go back to ME 2, and if you have a save right before you get on the shuttle because the Reaper IFF isn't ready yet, load it and watch it.  I'm not sure how you can ignore them taking whole colonies in ME 2, or the Human Reaper that they were building, all from live subjects.  I'm not sure how you can believe that all of that was Collector tech, and not Reaper tech, and that the Reapers can't use similar means to do what they've always done.  I mean, if the Collectors were the Protheans, see ME 2, how did all those Protheans get captured?  All we ever see are them getting blasted, or blasting Reapers.

[robertthebard]

Hannah Montana wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...

Jassu1979 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

I really don't see how saying the Reapers were defeated in Refuse is an outside source.

Because no where in the game is stated that they are?

Start at 2:40.

"They fought a terrible war so we wouldn't have to."
"And that's why we have peace?"
"Yes. Without everything they accomplished, without the information they passed down, we too would be threatened."

-> The Reapers are defeated by the next Cycle.

Yes but how?  Did they simply use the Catalyst when Shep wouldn't?  If so then trillions died in Sheps cycle for nothing.

It's not the point.
We know for a fact that the Reapers were  defeated.
In the other endings we don't know exactly what happened because you handed youself over to the choices the leader of Reapers gave you.
It could all be an indoctrinated dream, people headcanon that what they see is too be taken literally.

If you choose destroy, it says they fought a terrible battle so their cycle wouldn't have to.  The Reapers are defeated in our cycle, and the video is basically the same.  So how is Refusal superior again?

[Pitznik]

LiarasShield wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

But you're speculating peaceful measures none were taking as we have seen banshees have killed many other asaris brutes have killed many other krogan marauders have killed many other turians

We've seen reapers fire their lasers all through the course of me3


Even indoctrinated illusive man didn't use any peaceful measures he killed anderson and sure as **** was going to kill us

no pitznik stop headcannoing what the reapers have been doing lol

There are plenty of mentions of Reapers' concentration camps. Why would they keep them alive instead of shooting their lasers? Answer is easy.

Reapers are harvesting when they can, killing when they can't. They will have their human Reaper for the next cycle.

Its the same reason I don't consider twitter as canon if it isn't shown in the game then it is most like very non plausible that it happended since no forces were ever being captured in the game only indoctrinated to kill other forces or for the indoctrinated to kill others which the illusive man does

It shows no proof of the reapers wanting to keep anybody alive for harvesting or vice versa their intent seems to be to kill us all and if they do I die free not picking the being who controls the reapers in the first place to burn our galaxy and if we all do die we all doe die free because you can't make a reaper ship without the advance races being alive so yes I will die free fighting for what I believe in and not believeing in the reapers

Sorry you don't share my sentiment

But it is your ending to choose for your own shepard

ME3. Concentration camps. Proof. *facepalm*

Why would they suddenly want to kill everyone, if their goal is to harvest? Honestly, I'm not even sure anymore, if you're just trolling me, or you really that naive.

[Hannah Montana]

robertthebard wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...

Jassu1979 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

I really don't see how saying the Reapers were defeated in Refuse is an outside source.

Because no where in the game is stated that they are?

Start at 2:40.

"They fought a terrible war so we wouldn't have to."
"And that's why we have peace?"
"Yes. Without everything they accomplished, without the information they passed down, we too would be threatened."

-> The Reapers are defeated by the next Cycle.

Yes but how?  Did they simply use the Catalyst when Shep wouldn't?  If so then trillions died in Sheps cycle for nothing.

It's not the point.
We know for a fact that the Reapers were  defeated.
In the other endings we don't know exactly what happened because you handed youself over to the choices the leader of Reapers gave you.
It could all be an indoctrinated dream, people headcanon that what they see is too be taken literally.

If you choose destroy, it says they fought a terrible battle so their cycle wouldn't have to.  The Reapers are defeated in our cycle, and the video is basically the same.  So how is Refusal superior again?

When they say they fought a terrible that is probably just apart of the indoctrination dream.
For refusal we didn't give in, we refused. and as such there is 0% of anything being a dream.