83 réponses à ce sujet

[Tale Dakari]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Morrigan's not evil, she's just got a different agenda.

Very very well put. She does things out of interest, as humans generally do. She had some very extreme opinions at times but in the end it was not her call, but my character's. And by the end of the game I got her to love my character. I could not care less if she gave a damn about anybody else in the world anyway.  She's not evil. So far nothing is certain about her. And that puts her in first place on my "best characters of Dragon Age" list, second being Alistair.

Leliana is cute at times, but also very very very very girlish and generic. And her rant about the Maker bores me.

[Dakota Strider]

Well, since this is not Dungeons and Dragons, and there is no Alignment system implemented, its really hard to gauge if your interactions with her would change her from good to evil.



However, even if these alignments were being used, I would judge her to be True Neutral. Looking out for herself, she is not opposed to hurting others, but she does not take pleasure in it, its just to protect herself. And as she was raised to only look out for herself, and not to trust others, I think you will see that the fact she puts trust in your character (love interest or not) proves Morrigan outlook has changed from when you first met her.

[Malificis]

Tale Dakari wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Morrigan's not evil, she's just got a different agenda.

Very very well put. She does things out of interest, as humans generally do. She had some very extreme opinions at times but in the end it was not her call, but my character's. And by the end of the game I got her to love my character. I could not care less if she gave a damn about anybody else in the world anyway.  She's not evil. So far nothing is certain about her. And that puts her in first place on my "best characters of Dragon Age" list, second being Alistair.

Leliana is cute at times, but also very very very very girlish and generic. And her rant about the Maker bores me.

o-k...
define evil? by most definitions Morrigan is possibly evil but evil is a stupid word.
i would define it as, at the CORE, thus: "Using and or creating the grievous disadvantage and or misfortune of others for the benefit of the party this term is applied to, benefit being in this case direct or indirect, where such benefits are superflous to the need to live and be of acceptable levels of comfort".

naturally this could apply to everything from taxing people into poverty (CAUSING GRIEVOUS DISADVANTAGE) so a ruler can live well (DIRECT BENEFIT TO "EVIL" PARTY), to walking into a room and killing people (causing) so you can have fun.

Does Morrigan fit this? Not sure. This does not mean you must hate her. She is far more realistic a character than many presented in games.
A man who steals bread to live would not. This would be "neutral" if we are to continue with such medieval terminology. As would a fox which kills a lame rabbit, or a man who shoots a chicken so he may eat dinner.
Good would be the direct opposite of the definition i have supplied for evil. Loss to self for gain to others, basically.

Odd that you like both characters. either you have an unrealistic or besotted view of Morrigan or you see a much "darker" side to Alistair (not sure how the latter is possible, really. even with hissyfit).

Modifié par Malificis, 30 novembre 2009 - 11:58 .

[Vilegrim]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Fighting against the blight? Nope, not her goal, purpose, or motivation.
That's evidenced by her, you know, leaving right before the actual battle with the Archdemon.

it's weird that she leaves if you refuse the deal and she doesn't like you, but if she loves you it makes sense, she doesn't want to see you die.

[PappaCube]

My first run through I fell totally for Morrigan and loved every second of it. I'm currently playing a character that is romancing Leliana. OMG I'm getting sick with all the mushy crap. I think I'll keep stringing her along and then SMASH tell her once an assassin, always an assassin, wake up! Get lost! I wish I could dump her and get Morrigan in the sack but this character is female. haha

[Nathair Nimheil]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Morrigan's not evil, she's just got a different agenda.

She's a classic textbook sociopath. I guess you could call that "having a different agenda" but if she didn't have prominent breasts I don't think anyone would quibble about the distinction.

Modifié par Nathair Nimheil, 01 décembre 2009 - 12:53 .

[Dakota Strider]

Nathair Nimheil wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Morrigan's not evil, she's just got a different agenda.

She's a classic textbook sociopath. I guess you could call that "having a different agenda" but if she didn't have prominent breasts I don't think anyone would quibble about the distinction.

Sociopath?  All Morrigan sought was to be left alone in the wilds.  Because of the blight, she was forced to leave and help the last remaining wardens of Ferelden to defeat it.  She was born with magic, she did not ask for it.  When those that were opposed to her using magic outside of the restriction of the Chantry came to capture or kill her, she used what force she needed to defend herself. 

She is blunt, but that is because she was never taught social graces.  And isn't bluntness preferable, or at least more honest than deception?  I have yet to have a play-through where she has betrayed my character.  I have heard others say that she has left before the battle with the archdemon if you did not agree with her plan (a plan that would have saved your character's life).  However, choosing not to participate in the last battle is not exactly betrayal...if she had acted to defeat you and aid the archdemon, I would agree she is an evil ,backstabbing, b*****.  However, if your agenda and her agenda no longer coincide, she simply leaves.  She has put her life in danger for your cause up to that point, but you will forget all about that because she left when you did not do something for her?

I wish there had more options for convincing Morrigan to stay in the end.  However, her story has sequel written all  over it, and with such a cliffhanger, you know Bioware is not going to spoil future sales with a happy ending.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 01 décembre 2009 - 03:05 .

[Sylixe]

The Angry One wrote...

Bah if Dragon Age had an Evil-O-Meter it'd look like this.

EVIL
-
- Morrigan
- Archdemon
-
-
- Howe
-
-
-
-
-
- Loghain
-
-
-
- Sandal
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
NOT EVIL

You have the Archdemon placed way to high..oh wait i was thinking this was a meter on how diffcult they are to beat in combat.

[Driveninhifi]

Sociopaths don't fall in love with people and feel sorry about having to leave them.

The ending conversation with her could definitely use some work, as you are really railroaded into it without being able to ask most of the really obvious questions or attempt to convince her. I think the real issue is that it basically forces the player to accept it passively, when they've been anything but passive throughout the rest of the game.

[Alneverus]

KalosCast wrote...

I don't think Sandal has the mental capacity to even make it onto the meter...

Sandal should be higher on that scale. Just you wait, that dwarf is just laying in wait.

[Pawlem]

Morrigan's personality is fine. Evil? Whatever you call it since Morrigan probably isn't evil. That's what makes her character interesting.

[Nathair Nimheil]

Sociopath?

Sociopath. Dissocial personality disorder (ICD -10 F60.2) if you want to be more technical. Characterized by; superficial charm, unconcern for the feelings of others, the inability to maintain long term relationships, persistent irritability, low agression threshold, disregard for social norms and rules, blames others for her resorting to violence...

[Pawlem]

The Angry One wrote...

Bah if Dragon Age had an Evil-O-Meter it'd look like this.

EVIL
-
- Morrigan
- Archdemon
-
-
- Howe
-
-
-
-
-
- Loghain
-
-
-
- Sandal
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
NOT EVIL

I don't see Kitty anywhere on there.

[Diamaht]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Sociopaths don't fall in love with people and feel sorry about having to leave them.
The ending conversation with her could definitely use some work, as you are really railroaded into it without being able to ask most of the really obvious questions or attempt to convince her. I think the real issue is that it basically forces the player to accept it passively, when they've been anything but passive throughout the rest of the game.

I agree.  It is sort of disappointing to find out you have no choice in the outcome at all and nothing you've done or said (good or bad) has any bearing on the game.  I understand where everyone is coming from about her being consistant as a character but it does take all the air out of sails when you realize it's all scripted no matter what you've done.  I mean what's the point? 

Did they really expect players to buy into having no influence over the most prominent sub character in the game?  Then, potentially lose that character right before the final battle if you don't perform some random sex ritual?  If this was going to happen, put something into the plot before this point as a warning and make the choice come somewhere near the middle.  The idea is to choose your path in these games not have it forced on you at the last second.

Anyway, future playthroughs will be focusing on anyone but morrigan.  I'll build her up for the quest and all, doesn't take much really, and it's nice to kill a dragon but honestly what a let down, i'll just let Al ravage her at the end of every playthrough.  Great game but they dropped the ball on this part.

[Original182]

Yes I want to know if it's possible to "soften" Morrigan. In the game, the concept of "hardening" characters exist. So if "softening" characters doesn't exist, I would have liked it to be in the game, much like how you could change Viconia and Sarevok's alignment in Baldur's Gate by leading by example.

[Malificis]

Original182 wrote...

Yes I want to know if it's possible to "soften" Morrigan. In the game, the concept of "hardening" characters exist. So if "softening" characters doesn't exist, I would have liked it to be in the game, much like how you could change Viconia and Sarevok's alignment in Baldur's Gate by leading by example.

Short answer: no.

go and find the 20 page arguement over Morrigan on these forums and read it.
you will learn why and to what extent you can soften her, eventually failing.

[Original182]

Malificis wrote...

Original182 wrote...

Yes I want to know if it's possible to "soften" Morrigan. In the game, the concept of "hardening" characters exist. So if "softening" characters doesn't exist, I would have liked it to be in the game, much like how you could change Viconia and Sarevok's alignment in Baldur's Gate by leading by example.

Short answer: no.

go and find the 20 page arguement over Morrigan on these forums and read it.
you will learn why and to what extent you can soften her, eventually failing.

I think it's unfair that you can "harden" characters but not "soften" them. I hope the devs will add such a feature in future games.

[sinosleep]

If you buy the golden mirror in Orzammar that reminds her of the one she stole as child and gift it to her it brings up a dialogue option where you can ask her to be nicer. It prolly has no effect on the game though.

[marshalleck]

Original182 wrote...

Malificis wrote...

Original182 wrote...

Yes I want to know if it's possible to "soften" Morrigan. In the game, the concept of "hardening" characters exist. So if "softening" characters doesn't exist, I would have liked it to be in the game, much like how you could change Viconia and Sarevok's alignment in Baldur's Gate by leading by example.

Short answer: no.

go and find the 20 page arguement over Morrigan on these forums and read it.
you will learn why and to what extent you can soften her, eventually failing.

I think it's unfair that you can "harden" characters but not "soften" them. I hope the devs will add such a feature in future games.

Why would you want to soften Morrigan? She's an apostate and possibly saddled with God-baby living by herself out in the wilds, on the run from darkspawn and the ghost of Flemeth. If you soften her she would just be more likely to end up dead. Nature doesn't care how moral someone is; all that matters is the will to do whatever it takes to survive. "Soft" people perish in those conditions.

Modifié par marshalleck, 03 décembre 2009 - 06:22 .

[Eonassassin]

The Angry One wrote...

Bah if Dragon Age had an Evil-O-Meter it'd look like this.

EVIL
-
- Morrigan
- Archdemon
-
-
- Howe
-
-
-
-
-
- Loghain
-
-
-
- Sandal
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
NOT EVIL

LOL at Sandal! He's not evil!!!!!! and neither is Morrigan, shes just umm confused?

[Original182]

marshalleck wrote...

Original182 wrote...
I think it's unfair that you can "harden" characters but not "soften" them. I hope the devs will add such a feature in future games.

Why would you want to soften Morrigan? She's an apostate and possibly saddled with God-baby living by herself out in the wilds, on the run from darkspawn and the ghost of Flemeth. If you soften her she would just be more likely to end up dead. Nature doesn't care how moral someone is; all that matters is the will to do whatever it takes to survive. "Soft" people perish in those conditions.

Viconia and Sarevok were also evil in Baldur's Gate, yet it was possible to change their alignments to neutral and good respectively, despite their past.
I like the idea of redemption, to make companions see the error of their ways, and that there is a better way to live.

[marshalleck]

But Morrigan's life in the wild, her coldness, her ruthlessness, was not error. It was survival. Nothing can change that. Don't you think it's somewhat arrogant to judge her for living as she had to live under those circumstances, being raised by Flemeth, as being wrong or in "error"?

Modifié par marshalleck, 03 décembre 2009 - 06:32 .

[Original182]

marshalleck wrote...
But Morrigan's life in the wild, her coldness, her ruthlessness, was not error. It was survival. Nothing can change that.

So was Viconia in a sense, but lorewise there was no contradiction in turning her neutral. If you can harden people, you can soften people. Teaching her that love is not a weakness, it is the greatest thing. No need to be so ruthless, learn compassion to help those who can't help themselves.

[Eonassassin]

Original182 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Original182 wrote...
I think it's unfair that you can "harden" characters but not "soften" them. I hope the devs will add such a feature in future games.

Why would you want to soften Morrigan? She's an apostate and possibly saddled with God-baby living by herself out in the wilds, on the run from darkspawn and the ghost of Flemeth. If you soften her she would just be more likely to end up dead. Nature doesn't care how moral someone is; all that matters is the will to do whatever it takes to survive. "Soft" people perish in those conditions.

Viconia and Sarevok were also evil in Baldur's Gate, yet it was possible to change their alignments to neutral and good respectively, despite their past.
I like the idea of redemption, to make companions see the error of their ways, and that there is a better way to live.

You are assuming Morrigan is evil or has done something in her past that needs redemption. (Which she hasn't) She was raised by Flemmeth I mean c'mon even after being raised by Flemmeth you can STILL get her to fall in love with you, ofcourse she gets emotionally messed up after that but thats her character. 
And to all those complaining this choice is forced on us and you don't get to pick a path...... This IS you picking a path, just because its not the path you were expecting doesn't mean the choice isn't there.
I do agree the end dialogue needs more to it, but thats to be said about ALL the endgame chats I mean NONE of my party members excluding Alistair and ofcourse Morrigan had nothing new to say right before the final battle??? I mean were they just unaware that they are going to be fighting the Archdemon the next day?? But I am getting off topic here point being Morrigan isn't "evil" her survival is her priority over other things like love and what not..

[marshalleck]

Did Viconia choose her lifestyle or was it forced upon her as Morrigan's was? I honestly don't remember, as it has been probably nine years since I played BG.

Living out in the wild far from civilization, amongst the animals, hunted by Templars, doesn't really reward one for being kind and compassionate. It's survival of the fittest--not just fit in the physical sense, but psychologically as well. Prepared to go to any length to ensure one's own survival. Morrigan has done nothing that requires redemption, unless you arrogantly want to claim that her life itself is a crime.

Modifié par marshalleck, 03 décembre 2009 - 06:47 .