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BioWare Critics: What can DA3 specifically do to get you to purchase it?


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#1
ArenCordial

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Background:   This topic (while I'm has been touched on before) comes from a conversation a group of friends and I had in regards to our recent disappointment with DA2 & ME3.  My friends and I were pretty much BioWare drones who had preordered Collector's Editions waiting for us come release day for every BioWare title.  Things have changed for us do to our disappointment and often annoyance towards the last two singleplay titles to the point where we are basically done with BioWare.  That said we discussed the other day what could BioWare do specifically to bring us back as consumers.  I thought I'd put these thoughts out there and see if others had specific ideas they could add.  And I mean specifics, not "Make DA3 more like Origins."

- Meaningful Choice and Consequence -

If you're going to present me with a decision make that meaningful.  More than anything this has been the problem with DA2 and ME3.  We were given the illusion of choice without real consquence.  In DA2 you could decided b/w templars and mages.  Your choice didn't matter you always ended up fighting the same people whether it was in the side quests or far worse in the main quest at the end of the game.  ME3 had a similar problem.  You were presented with R/G/B but there was not real change in the presentation of the those choices which is why many claimed ME3 had 1 ending (EC did a better job differentiating this though).  Also don't give me an option to kill Leliana/Zevran/Wynne/Anders/etc only to have them show up again.  Enforcing your own cannon/preferences over the player's decisions is bad writing and is inexcusable.

-Tactical Combat over Button = Awesome! -
Over the top combat in DA2 was one of the most repulsive things about it.  A shield bash shouldn't send 3 guys flying nor should a sword make a person explode when they die.  DAO's combat was awesome because it was gritty.  I was always thrilled to get a finishing move because it was 1000x more visceral than anything DA2 had.

The removal of tactics also bought the game down, remember DA is the heir to Baldur's Gate not Dynasty Warriors.  Bring back the tactical view option and tactics of Origins.  Also Cross class Combo's was a neat idea but failed.  It doesnt make sense for a Warrior to give up his positioning/turn his back to the guys he's fighting to hit the enemy so the Rogue/Mage can deal some real damage and vica versa.

Potential Idea: Introduce a combo system of Combat Advantage so a class can combo off itself in addtion to other classes.
Ex: Single class Combo: Warrior shield bashes stunning an enemy.  He gets advantage against that enemy an uses his Overwhelming Assault and each hit does a good amount of extra damage.
Ex: Any class Combo: Mage freezes a foe.  Warrior can shield bash to deal crap load of extra dmg (shatter combo in DAO), Mage can cast lightning spell for extra damage, Rogue can also use a power to deal extra dmg.

-Companions -
Overall the companions were a let down from Origins.  Varric and Aveline were about the only ones I liked.  Several really got on my nerves (Fenris/Anders with the none stop hate of Mages/Templars), and felt more like lens to view the plot and establish sides than characters.  No one in DA2 could hold a candle to Morrigan, Alister, Leliana, or Shale.  And for god sakes bring back the camp or something similar with some appropriately awesome music.  Have it feel like your all in this together.

-Art
-
DA2's changes were jarring.  The Qunari were an impressive change, but the Elves and Darkspawn made me feel less like I was in a fantasy world and more like I was in a cartoony game.  The art changes in those 2 cases broke immersion.  Thats fine if you guys are proud of the work of your artists with the changes of DA2, but does that mean you aren't proud of the work they did in Origins?  If you aren't you should be.  Darkspawn were slimy, fierce, and intimidating.  You could see the taint just by looking at them.  In DA2 they felt like a skeletor joke, not a plague that could destroy they world.  They weren't intimidating at all.  Elves weren't as bad, but they were maybe too fairy like.  I was always distracted by their weird lines than being absorbed in what they were saying, not the desired effect I'm sure.

Don't be afraid to go back to how you started this.  DA2's changes could simply be attributed to Varric taking some liberties.  I understand you wanted to create a distincting look for the brand with DA2. I'd argue you did that in DAO and the look was positive and supportive for the setting's tone unlike the changes made in the sequel.

- Don't Rely on Auto-Dialogue/Make Dialogue Wheel More Clear -
I'm the player, you want the player character to say something I get to choose what to say. Simple as that.  The more you take me out of the game, the less I'm invested into your game.

The dialogue wheel is also annoying because one instance of "wait I wasn't trying to say that!" is one to many.  There should be a way if you're highlighting a choice, you should be able to have the first couple lines come up.  B/W tone icons and that no one should be complaining.

-Make Me Love My Player Character-
At the end of DA2 I really didn't care much about Hawke.  I'd have easily sacrificed the entirety of DA2 for a 3-4 hr DLC adventure in DAO with my Warden.  Why?  Because I loved my Warden, Hawke felt like your character not mine. So for DA3 make me love my protaganist.  How do you do that?  Well I have given you some ideas like stop the Auto-Dialogue and allowing me to make meaningful choices with consequences.  The basic idea is the more decisions you make for me or make meaningless, the more that the becomes PC your character and not mine then the less we care about the character.

-Establish the Villain Early-
Saverok, Irenicus, Malak, Saren, and Loghain were all good Villians.  We knew of them early and grew to hate them as adversaries while respecting their power and charisma then through out the game we'd learn a little more about them and their motivations.  The old saying is the hero is only as good as the villian.

In DA2 we never meet Meredith and Orsino until the end of Act 2. Most of the game is behind us.  When we finally get to know them we find out they were annoying bats**t crazy people that I wanted to kill more for their incompetence as leaders/compromisers than anything.  Plus Orsino's "BTW I help turn your mom into a zombie" bit the end....yeah not writing's finest moment.  One of the reasons Starchild was also despised was because his revealations on the Reapers' motivations turned a great villain into a facepalm.  Make and establish a great villian and your helping your cause immensely.

-No Auto-Dialogue/Omniscient FedEx Quests-
I'd rather have 1-2 good quests with dialogue than 12 of these. Enough said.

-More Locales/Less Reused Maps-
This has been beaten to death so I'm not sure much more needs to be said.

-Day One DLC-
If youre going to be doing this...and I know you are, use Warden's Keep as a template not Sebastian/Javik.  A party member is obviously pre-written into the script which is why so many compain about it being cut content.  A seperate adventure that gives me quests, exploration, gear, new dialogue/choices I can experience all at once is a better way to go.  While I'm sure this will probably be cut content anway I'm more likely to look favorably on it if I get to experience it all at once rather than every time Sebastain/Javik says something "oh yeah my 10/15 bucks is finally saying something."   I might not like the character for my party make up so I might miss out on what I'm paying extra for, which is more likely to make people rate it lower.   Take me on a fun adventure, not have me think "well I guess I can use Sebastain now and go do his quests then never use him again."

-Above All Don't Rush-
I'm sure EA calls the shots here, so I can't say this is helpful to the developers.  But to Greg and Ray I say this is about the value of the BioWare brand.  You built it, fight for it.  Two year lapses between releases aren't allowing you to achieve the greatness of past titles.  If you want that name to continue to carry weight then you want your fans to set the internet abuzz in favor of your product, not how rushed it felt, how inadequate the ending felt, or how its an inferior product to its predecessors.  Also note I said fans earlier I did not say game review sites.  Sure you want good reviews from those sites, but you know you'll get them anyway because getting a 9/10 on a AAA title isn't the heruclean task it used to be so their opinion doesn't matter.  Next time I go into a gamestop or get on a forum I'd love to be able to recommend a BioWare title to someone, not advise them to look elsewhere.  I'm sure I'm not the only one.



TL;DR  What specific features does DA3 need to get you to buy it?

Modifié par ArenCordial, 23 août 2012 - 12:18 .


#2
Emzamination

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I want to hear more talk of this political espionage and spy system they seem to be thinking about.

#3
Chiramu

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I actually will be purchasing DA3 regardless because I like playing the games.

I think though something that I would like in DA3 would be more real-time combat. I feel like I'm cheating when I pause the game to heal :<.

I also would like an older romance companion :) since we play a character that seems to be in their mid-20s having an older in-game romance would be cool, it also means one of the romances won't seem like statutory rape.

#4
Rawgrim

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Statutory rape, like what you do when you romance 12 year old Merrill?

#5
thepringle

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I'm pretty sure Merrill is like... 20 something, but whatever... I'd like pretty much everything you said OP, more Origins, less DAII.

#6
Iakus

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List looks pretty good. I'd only add a couple of things:

Day 1 DLC: If it's going to exist, should be free with all new purchases. Like The Stone Prisoner. This encourages people to buy the game new without the appearance of "paying extra for cut content"

Multiplayer: No. Just...no.

Or barring that, keep it so divorced from the single player game you would never realize it's there. BG was like that. SP and MP never affected each other. And the BG games were still 50+ hours of content each.

#7
zyntifox

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Good list. I agree with everything but the most important points are the ones regarding taking control of the protagonist. If you are making the dialogue a guessing game and let the protagonist speak without my input he/she is not my character.

#8
ArenCordial

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iakus wrote...

List looks pretty good. I'd only add a couple of things:

Day 1 DLC: If it's going to exist, should be free with all new purchases. Like The Stone Prisoner. This encourages people to buy the game new without the appearance of "paying extra for cut content"

Multiplayer: No. Just...no.

Or barring that, keep it so divorced from the single player game you would never realize it's there. BG was like that. SP and MP never affected each other. And the BG games were still 50+ hours of content each.


I like these ideas.  Multiplayer will just be a drain of assets.   Free Day One DLC for new purchases also does a ton for good will.

#9
Dutchess

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I don't agree that the characters in DA2 were worse than in DAO. In fact, they were the only thing the game still did right (though I really, really hated Anders). It was not the characters themselves that were lacking, but more the opportunities to interact with them. You could not just click on them and have a chat. There were only a few scheduled times when you could meet them in their base and talk to them. On top of that the time skips were handled very badly. Nothing had happened during those years. When you romance Fenris he leaves in act 2 after the love scene, and there is not one word you can say to him about it until his Questioning Beliefs in act 3, in which he finally confesses his love. After three years. In which they have, apparently, barely spoken a word to each other. Yay. I love the relationship with Fenris, but it had a lot more potential and suffered greatly from the time skips and limited chances to interact with him. Same goes for the other romances. Isabela: flirt, have sex, she leaves. I love you... in act 3.
Anders: flirt, needy kiss, sex, I LOVE YOU AND WANT TO MOVE IN WITH YOU.
Haven't romanced Merrill, so I don't know about her, but it will be the same. A few opportunities to flirt, then she loves you.

So, long story short: keep up the good work with the amazing characters. Just let us interact more with them to get to know them better. Let the development of relationships (be it as friends, rivals or lovers) feel organic and well-paced, not disjointed and abrupt.

#10
Korusus

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If DA3 has a tactical camera then I will know that BioWare is listening and taking things to hearts, that's a fundamental design choice that impacts everything about the game from early on, and it shows a willingness to compromise on BioWare's part.

If DA3 lacks a tactical camera it's instantly a no-buy.

In my mind everything stems from and hinges on the presence of a tactical camera. A tactical camera forces them to be thoughtful.

And another thing would be a demonstration of a willingness to compromise on things like the dialogue wheel...insisting on the dialogue wheel on the one hand leaves me doubting whether BioWare can pull off a good DA3. Showing a commitment to significantly improve the way the dialogue wheel functions (which I've yet to see on their part) would leave me feeling confident about the lessons the team learned.

It's been said before, BioWare no longer wins on story alone. No matter how good DA3's story is, I will not purchase the game without at least a demonstration of an need to improve from a gameplay and design standpoint, which is where DA2 really suffered.

Modifié par Korusus, 23 août 2012 - 01:23 .


#11
kellyofthemagi

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All of this has been said in the past. The Devs are well aware of our concerns. Com-on they dont want to put out a bad product. Their names are on it. Don't you really think they want to be the best. They are in a competative market. I believe they want to top Bethesda. I say thet can do it. With that said ( I need to be on their PR team.)

#12
Renmiri1

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I despise the ME3 endings and really don't like the game. couldn't even finish it.

But DA2 was a pleasant surprise. I went into it expecting an ME3 turd but it wasn't. I actually prefer DA2 to DAO sometimes. I think DA2 suffered from hype and from being rushed but is still is a nice enjoyable game. ME3 is just awful. Is the devs and writers singing TROLOLOLOL to us fans.

PS: You should join Bioware PR, can't do a worse job than the team that is there insulting fans. :P

Modifié par Renmiri1, 23 août 2012 - 01:55 .


#13
ArenCordial

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kellyofthemagi wrote...

All of this has been said in the past. The Devs are well aware of our concerns. Com-on they dont want to put out a bad product. Their names are on it. Don't you really think they want to be the best. They are in a competative market. I believe they want to top Bethesda. I say thet can do it. With that said ( I need to be on their PR team.)


Two Points I'd like to make

1.)  Good intentions don't mean good execution.   I'm sure every RPG dev wants to put out a good product and be the best in there industry.   You mention Bethesda as being the top of their peer group.  I'd ask what is it that makes them so successful?   Its not Day One DLC, its not mulitiplayer, its not pushing out a new Elder Scrolls every two years.   I'd say its because they understand their niche, incorporate good well reasoned fan feedback while not messing too much with thier own formula, and have receieved positive fan and press coverage.   Things that Bioware all used to have.

2.)  Yes much of this has been said before.   You say the devs are well aware of our concerns.  I say many of these same points were brought up after Dragon Age 2.   When I later bought ME3, I found so many of those points of contention in that game as well.   So if the devs were aware, they weren't concerned.   Who's to say thats changed?  The point of this thread is say "hey here are the deal breakers and here's how to turn them into deal makers."

#14
Jerrybnsn

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For all I criticise DA2 and wonder about DA3's direction, the truth is....all they have to do is start their trailer with Morrigan's voice and it'll be...a someday purchase.  I would need a heck of a lot more to pre-order.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 23 août 2012 - 02:38 .


#15
Potato Cat

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Don't forget the different playable races. There's a lot of elf and dwarf lovers in the world. Don't leave us out in the cold again!

#16
Xilizhra

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2.) Yes much of this has been said before. You say the devs are well aware of our concerns. I say many of these same points were brought up after Dragon Age 2. When I later bought ME3, I found so many of those points of contention in that game as well. So if the devs were aware, they weren't concerned. Who's to say thats changed? The point of this thread is say "hey here are the deal breakers and here's how to turn them into deal makers."

Those are different teams.

I... agree with some of this, but not all. For one thing, I considered the DA2 companions to be miles better, all in all, than the DAO ones. Certainly no one will ever compare to Merrill for me. For another, making the Warden "yours" seems to have come at a cost of them being silent, a characteristic that I by and large completely despise. I support racial choices, but not at the cost of a voice. Cutting dwarves as an option and leaving elves could be an acceptable compromise there...

#17
Nefla

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Race selection would be a big one, but that's not going to happen. Also character backstories like Origins or SWtOR, or at least something you can pick that is mentioned in the game like Mass Effect. I don't want to be the generic, faceless hero that just washes up on a beach that we got in DA2. No re-used maps, no DA2/ME3 pantaloon fed-ex quests, etc...

Really though I'm just going to wait for extensive fan reviews, see what the community reaction is, and watch parts on youtube before I decide.

#18
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

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Romanceable SHODAN.

I will settle for Many, also. Whether it be "The Many" or "One of Many".

Modifié par CrustyBot, 23 août 2012 - 03:04 .


#19
Chromie

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Chris Avellone write the story.

#20
Emzamination

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Skelter192 wrote...

Chris Avellone write the story.


No, after his statement about doing away with romance completely in games, I don't want that man touching any series I play.I had always wondered why the romance in Kotor 2 was so god awful, seems I have my answer.

#21
coles4971

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Well he said himself he's not all that good at writing romances (IIRC), so would you prefer a bad romance over none at all?

#22
Emzamination

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coles4971 wrote...

Well he said himself he's not all that good at writing romances (IIRC), so would you prefer a bad romance over none at all?


Neh he said here he can't write a romance unless one of the people dies.What kind of twisted individual can't stand love and happiness? The Dragon age series and bioware as a whole is better off without the poison that streams from that monster's pen, but I'll stop ranting so I don't derail the thread from its current objective.

#23
The Elder King

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Emzamination wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

Chris Avellone write the story.


No, after his statement about doing away with romance completely in games, I don't want that man touching any series I play.I had always wondered why the romance in Kotor 2 was so god awful, seems I have my answer.


While I don't think Bioware will do a game without romance content (excluding C&C:G2), but I don't think the romance content is that important.
I like romance content, but I don't think it's fundamental. For example, if I have to choose between romance content and race selection, that'll give different outcomes in the game, I'll chose the latter anytime.

#24
The Elder King

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Emzamination wrote...

coles4971 wrote...

Well he said himself he's not all that good at writing romances (IIRC), so would you prefer a bad romance over none at all?


Neh he said here he can't write a romance unless one of the people dies.What kind of twisted individual can't stand love and happiness? The Dragon age series and bioware as a whole is better off without the poison that streams from that monster's pen, but I'll stop ranting so I don't derail the thread from its current objective.

He may not stand love and happiness, but love and happiness isn't necessary for a good story. Shakespeare docet.

Modifié par hhh89, 23 août 2012 - 04:30 .


#25
Atakuma

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Skelter192 wrote...

Chris Avellone write the story.

No.