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BioWare Critics: What can DA3 specifically do to get you to purchase it?


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#101
Terror_K

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LinksOcarina wrote...

BioWare can take their time with Dragon Age and make it last 5,6 games if were lucky. 


No they can't. They couldn't even make two games before they completely ruined the series by deliberately turning their backs on the original source material, deliberately going against the grain of pretty much everything the original game stood for and stabbed their old fans in the back for the sake of pandering to the mainstream masses.

As long as BioWare has still got this cancer that's it's had for the last two years that it doesn't appear to be even trying to get rid of, there's no way we're going to get anything remotely decent from them. Pointing out the faults of DA2 and how to fix them is a complete waste of time when all we're pointing at are symptoms of a far bigger problem that encompasses all of BioWare's recent games, and not just this thing they now call "Dragon Age" but isn't.

Until they can admit to and deal with the faults at the very heart of their studio and see that this mass pandering and reliance on cinematic design and mass appeal is the problem, there's nothing that can be done to save Dragon Age, or any other BioWare IP. Not when they're deliberately retconning and retooling their IPs and turning them into something they shouldn't be just, not because it's a natural evolution or it's better for the series, but just to make more dosh.

#102
bEVEsthda

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Terror_K wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

BioWare can take their time with Dragon Age and make it last 5,6 games if were lucky. 


No they can't. They couldn't even make two games before they completely ruined the series by deliberately turning their backs on the original source material, deliberately going against the grain of pretty much everything the original game stood for and stabbed their old fans in the back for the sake of pandering to the mainstream masses.

As long as BioWare has still got this cancer that's it's had for the last two years that it doesn't appear to be even trying to get rid of, there's no way we're going to get anything remotely decent from them. Pointing out the faults of DA2 and how to fix them is a complete waste of time when all we're pointing at are symptoms of a far bigger problem that encompasses all of BioWare's recent games, and not just this thing they now call "Dragon Age" but isn't.

Until they can admit to and deal with the faults at the very heart of their studio and see that this mass pandering and reliance on cinematic design and mass appeal is the problem, there's nothing that can be done to save Dragon Age, or any other BioWare IP. Not when they're deliberately retconning and retooling their IPs and turning them into something they shouldn't be just, not because it's a natural evolution or it's better for the series, but just to make more dosh.


I think you're right.

I've taken numerous opportunities on this forum to state my opinion that I don't think lack of time or resources was the essential problem with DA2. This popular theory is false.
 
Of course, it's entirely true that DA2 was made under pressure. "Rushed" if you want. And I'm full of admiration for Mike Laidlaw and the team, in regard of how much they managed to do, and at what level of craftmanship. The problem is what they made. It was always the type of game they envisioned and wanted to create! Always their changes to the DA franchise. That is the failure.

#103
Spicen

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I want things:
1) Make OGB the hero
2)Give us a chance to kill Leliana
3)Bring cole, he sounds awesome

#104
Welsh Inferno

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Terror_K wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

BioWare can take their time with Dragon Age and make it last 5,6 games if were lucky. 


No they can't. They couldn't even make two games before they completely ruined the series by deliberately turning their backs on the original source material, deliberately going against the grain of pretty much everything the original game stood for and stabbed their old fans in the back for the sake of pandering to the mainstream masses.

As long as BioWare has still got this cancer that's it's had for the last two years that it doesn't appear to be even trying to get rid of, there's no way we're going to get anything remotely decent from them. Pointing out the faults of DA2 and how to fix them is a complete waste of time when all we're pointing at are symptoms of a far bigger problem that encompasses all of BioWare's recent games, and not just this thing they now call "Dragon Age" but isn't.

Until they can admit to and deal with the faults at the very heart of their studio and see that this mass pandering and reliance on cinematic design and mass appeal is the problem, there's nothing that can be done to save Dragon Age, or any other BioWare IP. Not when they're deliberately retconning and retooling their IPs and turning them into something they shouldn't be just, not because it's a natural evolution or it's better for the series, but just to make more dosh.


Well said.

I think the thing that bugs me most though is that its not just BW.. it seems lately that the majority of developers seem to be taking a similar direction with their games. Money rules I guess :(

Modifié par Welsh Inferno, 26 août 2012 - 01:50 .


#105
Terror_K

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Welsh Inferno wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

No they can't. They couldn't even make two games before they completely ruined the series by deliberately turning their backs on the original source material, deliberately going against the grain of pretty much everything the original game stood for and stabbed their old fans in the back for the sake of pandering to the mainstream masses.

As long as BioWare has still got this cancer that's it's had for the last two years that it doesn't appear to be even trying to get rid of, there's no way we're going to get anything remotely decent from them. Pointing out the faults of DA2 and how to fix them is a complete waste of time when all we're pointing at are symptoms of a far bigger problem that encompasses all of BioWare's recent games, and not just this thing they now call "Dragon Age" but isn't.

Until they can admit to and deal with the faults at the very heart of their studio and see that this mass pandering and reliance on cinematic design and mass appeal is the problem, there's nothing that can be done to save Dragon Age, or any other BioWare IP. Not when they're deliberately retconning and retooling their IPs and turning them into something they shouldn't be just, not because it's a natural evolution or it's better for the series, but just to make more dosh.


Well said.

I think the thing that bugs me most though is that its not just BW.. it seems lately that the majority of developers seem to be taking a similar direction with their games. Money rules I guess :(


They are. That's why 90% of today's AAA titles are largely clones of each other: these hyrbid games that are turning everything into this samey brown mush lately. There's almost no pure-class genres any more, and all we're getting are these semi-cinematic, story-driven action games with light RPG elements.

And it's pretty damn clear that that's all BioWare wants to make any more. They don't want to make proper RPGs any more, they just want to follow the crowd and also make semi-cinematic, story-driven action games with light RPG elements. That's what both Mass Effect and Dragon Age have become nowL turning their backs on their original titles to dumb themselves down for the mainstream masses.

The only real difference is BioWare are coming from the other side of things. While the likes of UbiSoft and Activision are taking action games and adding more depth to them by adding things that RPGs were known for such as narrative, cinematics, customisation, upgrades, etc. BioWare are instead taking their RPGs and removing these factors in favour of adding more action game elements to them. Both are coming to meet in the middle to try and find this so-called "perfect" hybrid to appeal to as many people as possible, just from different sides.

Both are responsible for gaming becoming a large brown mass of sameyness lately, but I'd actually say BioWare are worse, because at least those who are adding more depth to their action games are innovating more and giving more substance to a once straightforward and simple genre. BioWare are doing the opposite of innovating: dumbing down and oversimplifying, not because it's better for the genre, but for the sake of mass appeal and getting more players who are normally put off RPGs for being too deep, too complex, too talky, etc.

And as long as BioWare has that attitude and mindset with making their games, then all is lost. We're never going to get proper RPGs and a decent Dragon Age again so long as BioWare don't even want to make them.

#106
Emzamination

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Terror_K wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

BioWare can take their time with Dragon Age and make it last 5,6 games if were lucky. 


No they can't. They couldn't even make two games before they completely ruined the series by deliberately turning their backs on the original source material, deliberately going against the grain of pretty much everything the original game stood for and stabbed their old fans in the back for the sake of pandering to the mainstream masses.

As long as BioWare has still got this cancer that's it's had for the last two years that it doesn't appear to be even trying to get rid of, there's no way we're going to get anything remotely decent from them. Pointing out the faults of DA2 and how to fix them is a complete waste of time when all we're pointing at are symptoms of a far bigger problem that encompasses all of BioWare's recent games, and not just this thing they now call "Dragon Age" but isn't.

Until they can admit to and deal with the faults at the very heart of their studio and see that this mass pandering and reliance on cinematic design and mass appeal is the problem, there's nothing that can be done to save Dragon Age, or any other BioWare IP. Not when they're deliberately retconning and retooling their IPs and turning them into something they shouldn't be just, not because it's a natural evolution or it's better for the series, but just to make more dosh.


As opposed to pandering to you specifically, yes? and before we start acting doe eyed and surprised, it's right there in black and white at the top of your demands.Save your preaching, you don't care about the fans, all you care about is getting what you want, how you want it, when you want it.Bioware is free to alter their creations when and how they see fit, don't like it? goodbye, that game copy you don't buy, someone else will.The company is interested in hearing feedback about what the fans want added, not your incessant bad mouthing.It's not bioware who betrayed you, it's you who stabbed bioware in the back, you offer 'feedback' with one hand, then turn around and call them cancerous with the other, real loyalty there hmm? You're right about one thing, there is a cancer making the rounds and it's called Entitlement, but it's not Bioware that's harboring that parasite.I'm glad the company takes a hard stand against such bullying.With fans like you, who needs enemies?

Modifié par Emzamination, 26 août 2012 - 03:09 .


#107
Jerrybnsn

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"reliance on cinematic design"........

This is the big problem with today's Bioware games. Instead of using cinematic design to support and heightened the rpg elements, it has taken over as everything needs to be supporting and heightening the cinematic experience.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 26 août 2012 - 03:25 .


#108
Fisto The Sexbot

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Terror_K wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

No they can't. They couldn't even make two games before they completely ruined the series by deliberately turning their backs on the original source material, deliberately going against the grain of pretty much everything the original game stood for and stabbed their old fans in the back for the sake of pandering to the mainstream masses.

As long as BioWare has still got this cancer that's it's had for the last two years that it doesn't appear to be even trying to get rid of, there's no way we're going to get anything remotely decent from them. Pointing out the faults of DA2 and how to fix them is a complete waste of time when all we're pointing at are symptoms of a far bigger problem that encompasses all of BioWare's recent games, and not just this thing they now call "Dragon Age" but isn't.

Until they can admit to and deal with the faults at the very heart of their studio and see that this mass pandering and reliance on cinematic design and mass appeal is the problem, there's nothing that can be done to save Dragon Age, or any other BioWare IP. Not when they're deliberately retconning and retooling their IPs and turning them into something they shouldn't be just, not because it's a natural evolution or it's better for the series, but just to make more dosh.


Well said.

I think the thing that bugs me most though is that its not just BW.. it seems lately that the majority of developers seem to be taking a similar direction with their games. Money rules I guess :(


They are. That's why 90% of today's AAA titles are largely clones of each other: these hyrbid games that are turning everything into this samey brown mush lately. There's almost no pure-class genres any more, and all we're getting are these semi-cinematic, story-driven action games with light RPG elements.

And it's pretty damn clear that that's all BioWare wants to make any more. They don't want to make proper RPGs any more, they just want to follow the crowd and also make semi-cinematic, story-driven action games with light RPG elements. That's what both Mass Effect and Dragon Age have become nowL turning their backs on their original titles to dumb themselves down for the mainstream masses.

The only real difference is BioWare are coming from the other side of things. While the likes of UbiSoft and Activision are taking action games and adding more depth to them by adding things that RPGs were known for such as narrative, cinematics, customisation, upgrades, etc. BioWare are instead taking their RPGs and removing these factors in favour of adding more action game elements to them. Both are coming to meet in the middle to try and find this so-called "perfect" hybrid to appeal to as many people as possible, just from different sides.

Both are responsible for gaming becoming a large brown mass of sameyness lately, but I'd actually say BioWare are worse, because at least those who are adding more depth to their action games are innovating more and giving more substance to a once straightforward and simple genre. BioWare are doing the opposite of innovating: dumbing down and oversimplifying, not because it's better for the genre, but for the sake of mass appeal and getting more players who are normally put off RPGs for being too deep, too complex, too talky, etc.

And as long as BioWare has that attitude and mindset with making their games, then all is lost. We're never going to get proper RPGs and a decent Dragon Age again so long as BioWare don't even want to make them.


Well, at least it looks like their luck is running out eventually. The good news is that they're not the Golden Standard™ of RPGs anymore.

#109
Fisto The Sexbot

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Emzamination wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

BioWare can take their time with Dragon Age and make it last 5,6 games if were lucky. 


No they can't. They couldn't even make two games before they completely ruined the series by deliberately turning their backs on the original source material, deliberately going against the grain of pretty much everything the original game stood for and stabbed their old fans in the back for the sake of pandering to the mainstream masses.

As long as BioWare has still got this cancer that's it's had for the last two years that it doesn't appear to be even trying to get rid of, there's no way we're going to get anything remotely decent from them. Pointing out the faults of DA2 and how to fix them is a complete waste of time when all we're pointing at are symptoms of a far bigger problem that encompasses all of BioWare's recent games, and not just this thing they now call "Dragon Age" but isn't.

Until they can admit to and deal with the faults at the very heart of their studio and see that this mass pandering and reliance on cinematic design and mass appeal is the problem, there's nothing that can be done to save Dragon Age, or any other BioWare IP. Not when they're deliberately retconning and retooling their IPs and turning them into something they shouldn't be just, not because it's a natural evolution or it's better for the series, but just to make more dosh.


As opposed to pandering to you specifically, yes? and before we start acting doe eyed and surprised, it's right there in black and white at the top of your demands.Save your preaching, you don't care about the fans, all you care about is getting what you want, how you want it, when you want it.Bioware is free to alter their creations when and how they see fit, don't like it? goodbye, that game copy you don't buy, someone else will.The company is interested in hearing feedback about what the fans want added, not your incessant bad mouthing.It's not bioware who betrayed you, it's you who stabbed bioware in the back, you offer 'feedback' with one hand, then turn around and call them cancerous with the other, real loyalty there hmm? You're right about one thing, there is a cancer making the rounds and it's called Entitlement, but it's not Bioware that's harboring that parasite.I'm glad the company takes a hard stand against such bullying.With fans like you, who needs enemies?


While I doubt the sincerity of your post sir, I myself do not (have to) care about what the fans want. If they support the way BioWare is going now, then they are part of the problem, sir. The fans would only care about romances, immersion, or the story, sir. They may not care about roleplaying at all. If that is so, then they are helping BioWare lower the bar, sir, and I cannot endorse that.

You may dislike us 'haters' sir, but believe it or not, we are fighting for the good of all RPGs. We only wish to educate you on what is proper. We only want good games, sir. Whereas you would be content with so-called 'gigglesquees', we wish the industry to be able to give more than that. We wish to show you greener pastures.
We are like the parents you say you never wanted, but that you will thank later on. We want...

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... a better future for you, and for ourselves. But mostly for ourselves.

#110
coles4971

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emzamination is female btw

just sayin

#111
jackofalltrades456

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Oompa Loompa, do-ba-dee-doo,
I've got a perfect puzzle for you.
Oompa Loompa, do-ba-da-dee
If you are wise you'll listen to me.
Cinematics' are fine when they're once in a while.
It brightens your experience and can make you smile.
But it's repulsive, revolting, and wrong.
Cutscene after Cutscene all game long.
More then a Michael Bay film does.
Oompa Loompa doom-pa-dee-da
If you will scrap this then you will go far.
You will live in happiness too,
Like the Oompa Loompa do-ba-dee-doo.

Image IPB

Modifié par jackofalltrades456, 26 août 2012 - 04:23 .


#112
Emzamination

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coles4971 wrote...

emzamination is female btw

just sayin


Oh he knows, I've had my share of run-ins with this tr- 'poster' before.I put as much emphasis into reading his refuse as he does to accurately acknowledge my gender.

#113
PistachioInfernal

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I'd like to see Bioware convince EA not to police us with Origin and/or signing in through the internet. I'd like to register my game once, and then not have anything else to do with EA. That's the Big One.

Also, I'd like to have a change of scenery, Kirkwall wasn't bad. But as has been pointed out before, the reuse of the dungeons is more then lackluster, it was sloppy and lazy.

Bring back the choice of races, it would be nice to play as a dwarf again.

#114
GodWood

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Emzamination wrote...
Oh he knows, I've had my share of run-ins with this tr- 'poster' before.

Terror eloquently explains why he dislikes Bioware's current direction therefore he's a troll?

lol drones gonna drone.

#115
Seboist

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Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

While I doubt the sincerity of your post sir, I myself do not (have to) care about what the fans want. If they support the way BioWare is going now, then they are part of the problem, sir. The fans would only care about romances, immersion, or the story, sir. They may not care about roleplaying at all. If that is so, then they are helping BioWare lower the bar, sir, and I cannot endorse that..


EAware's fans don't care about story, they made it perfectly clearly with the whole ending fiasco of ME3. They didn't care about the utterly moronic crucible plot that was the asspull of the century or other derps like the Cerberus superpower(not to mention the past derps 2 had like space terminator,daddy issue plots and lazarus) until it dawned on them that they wouldn't be able to ride into the sunset with space waifu/manfu.

#116
jaza

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Retcon DA2, give me more Morrigan, Oghren and Qunari.

#117
coles4971

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GodWood wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Oh he knows, I've had my share of run-ins with this tr- 'poster' before.

Terror eloquently explains why he dislikes Bioware's current direction therefore he's a troll?

lol drones gonna drone.


im on about fisto, lol

#118
Emzamination

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GodWood wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Oh he knows, I've had my share of run-ins with this tr- 'poster' before.

Terror eloquently explains why he dislikes Bioware's current direction therefore he's a troll?

lol drones gonna drone.


If you hadn't snipped the other half of my post or read the page, you'd see that wasn't directed at K.

Yes, yes they will

#119
Fast Jimmy

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Also, in addition to my initial request (about two pages back, I'd guess) requesting widely varied endings, I'd also like to see a return to either A) origins, as seen in DA:O or B) backgrounds, as seen in ME1. Origins would be preferable (since they show, not tell, the history of your character) but I'd take backgrounds if it came down to it, since it add a different flavor and extra content for future playthroughs.

#120
LinksOcarina

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Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

BioWare can take their time with Dragon Age and make it last 5,6 games if were lucky. 


No they can't. They couldn't even make two games before they completely ruined the series by deliberately turning their backs on the original source material, deliberately going against the grain of pretty much everything the original game stood for and stabbed their old fans in the back for the sake of pandering to the mainstream masses.

As long as BioWare has still got this cancer that's it's had for the last two years that it doesn't appear to be even trying to get rid of, there's no way we're going to get anything remotely decent from them. Pointing out the faults of DA2 and how to fix them is a complete waste of time when all we're pointing at are symptoms of a far bigger problem that encompasses all of BioWare's recent games, and not just this thing they now call "Dragon Age" but isn't.

Until they can admit to and deal with the faults at the very heart of their studio and see that this mass pandering and reliance on cinematic design and mass appeal is the problem, there's nothing that can be done to save Dragon Age, or any other BioWare IP. Not when they're deliberately retconning and retooling their IPs and turning them into something they shouldn't be just, not because it's a natural evolution or it's better for the series, but just to make more dosh.


As opposed to pandering to you specifically, yes? and before we start acting doe eyed and surprised, it's right there in black and white at the top of your demands.Save your preaching, you don't care about the fans, all you care about is getting what you want, how you want it, when you want it.Bioware is free to alter their creations when and how they see fit, don't like it? goodbye, that game copy you don't buy, someone else will.The company is interested in hearing feedback about what the fans want added, not your incessant bad mouthing.It's not bioware who betrayed you, it's you who stabbed bioware in the back, you offer 'feedback' with one hand, then turn around and call them cancerous with the other, real loyalty there hmm? You're right about one thing, there is a cancer making the rounds and it's called Entitlement, but it's not Bioware that's harboring that parasite.I'm glad the company takes a hard stand against such bullying.With fans like you, who needs enemies?


While I doubt the sincerity of your post sir, I myself do not (have to) care about what the fans want. If they support the way BioWare is going now, then they are part of the problem, sir. The fans would only care about romances, immersion, or the story, sir. They may not care about roleplaying at all. If that is so, then they are helping BioWare lower the bar, sir, and I cannot endorse that.

You may dislike us 'haters' sir, but believe it or not, we are fighting for the good of all RPGs. We only wish to educate you on what is proper. We only want good games, sir. Whereas you would be content with so-called 'gigglesquees', we wish the industry to be able to give more than that. We wish to show you greener pastures.
We are like the parents you say you never wanted, but that you will thank later on. We want...

Image IPB

... a better future for you, and for ourselves. But mostly for ourselves.


Allow me to make a prediction.

Wasteland 2 will fail. Yep. I said it. Sad too, because I bought a physical copy of it on the kickstarter. But Brian Fargo is one guy that doesn't get it, sadly. He may want to make a game for his audience, the type of game he likes. He may want to cater to their whims and hate the system, but ironically he just gave the keys to the kingdom instead. Now, instead of one publisher asking ten things, he now has 1,000 fans asking 10,000 things. And too many of these fans have no clue what they want either.

Hell, the first inkling of this is the alpha screen they showed. All I see is a sea of complaints; the colors are too vibrant, it doesn't look real, it looks cartoonish, the isometric view is crap, there is no detail in the screenshot, there is not enough color in-game. This and that, complaints and threats to remove their kickstarter pledge, because that is how fans are. No offense, I am one too, but we have a schema of what it should be. Always. And we are always dissapointed by the most banal things that make it a nerd nitpick in the end.

No wonder people see us as having our heads in the sand...but I digress.

The sad truth, is that real RPG fans don't have to fight a good fight. That noble quest doesn't exist. Real RPG fans realize that the artificial labels seperating the genres are bogus, that RPGs can come in all shapes and sizes, that a story and a gameplay mechanic never have to cater to one specific, narrow ideal. And lastly, that RPGs will never be mainstream. The last one makes me laugh the most as a major charge by angry cynics. Dragon Age II is no where near the mainstream. That is the biggest joke of all.

#121
Guest_greengoron89_*

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Not suck.

#122
Clover Rider

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greengoron89 wrote...

Not suck.

I like this post, it's simple but it has a point that we can all agree on.

Modifié par Some Geth, 26 août 2012 - 09:43 .


#123
Jobrill

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I want some indication that the story and ending provide an opportunity for me to make meaningful choices that affect the flow of the game, and that the end is not a jerky, rushed thing that makes a 180 degree turn from the rest of the game and/or established themes and provides adequate closure for the characters I care about. I would also need favorable opinions from sources I trust (IE: Friends and small independent reviewers, not review sites that seem to be in the pockets or game companies and/or more willing to give good reviews of games in return for favors).

Also, NO RECYCLED ART ASSETS.

That said, I reserve the right to buy it regardless if one or more of the following is true:

-Romancable Female Kossith Companion.
-Female Dwarves
-Romancable Dwarf Companions
-Ability to play as a Female Dwarf PC.

Note that I am speaking as someone who loved Dragon Age II overall. My mistrust, Art Assets aside, comes primarily from ME3.

Modifié par Jobrill, 27 août 2012 - 01:25 .


#124
Blastback

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Give the protagonist closure at the end of the base game, and don't mess it up in future content. And have conversations reveal that the Warden did in fact continue on whatever path we chose for them in Origins if they survived. I can't stand this mysterious disappearance stuff.

Give me a story where I can feel like the hero, and not just a powerless witness. Let me earn a happy ending. And keep working to make the Voiced PC more accesible to Silent PC fans.

Let us feel proactive and successful.

#125
Terror_K

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Blastback wrote...

And keep working to make the Voiced PC more accesible to Silent PC fans.


Not gonna happen. The voiced PC will always restrict roleplaying far too much, and nothing any developer can do will stop that. It's always going to reduce dialogue choices and put voice, tone and inflection on the player character, so the player can never fully make them their own. The dialogue wheel doesn't help either, also restricting dialogue choices.

It's a shame that BioWare is so damn stubborn about this issue, especially considering that during DAO development they were defending the silent protagonist for many of the same reasons RPG fans want one, only to more recently do an about face on the issue because of their precious cinematic flow and design, which is apparently far more crucial to their game than being able to properly roleplay and fully define a character.

Again, more proof of BioWare stubbornness, inability to make changes where they really need to, pandering to mainstream audiences and trends and the fact they no longer want to make true RPGs, but merely cinematic, story-driven action games.