342 réponses à ce sujet

[Blueprotoss]

 

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

By failed I mean the fan backlash at a time when the  trilogy was suppose to be at it's apex it hit it's low point instead. 

ME3 didn't need PTSD sequences, nihilism, an unbeatable foe, or transhuman nonsense, it just needed a conventional victory with a few varying end choices based on player morality. Nothing fancy but who cares? Stick with what works.

I'm surprised that you're using a straw-mann here especialy when nihilism, an unbeatable foe, transhuman "nonsense", and a unconventional victory happened in ME1/ME2. 

chemiclord wrote...

knightnblu wrote...
Why do you think that most people never completed the game? 

Not challenging your greater point, but this doesn't actually support your claim.  ME3's completion rate is actually HIGHER than the average, and supposedly is even higher than internet fan favorities ME1 and DA:O.

Yep!  ME3 has also sold more then ME1 and ME2 at launch.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 24 août 2012 - 02:57 .

[Blueprotoss]

J. Reezy wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

knightnblu wrote... 
 
There was never any pay off for the player. A lot of us spent a lot of time and money on the trilogy and we were rewarded with crap. No matter which ending you pick, you had to take a bite off of the crap sandwich and enjoy the taste because BioWare wasn't going to let you get away with a clean taste in your mouth. Pick control you die and never see anybody you care about ever again and your friends are all Reapers. Pick synthesis and you rape the galaxy. Pick destroy and you kill the Geth and EDI. The message? Victory always blows.

If there was no payoff for the player then there would be no ending...

There's more to a payoff than a denouement. Satisfaction is a big part of that.

Thats a straw-mann just like how ME1 and ME2 had a small amount of rage just like ME3.  There's no such thing as a 100% satifactory rating and shortening the quote won't help you.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 24 août 2012 - 03:00 .

[IanPolaris]

Blueprotoss wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

knightnblu wrote... 
 
There was never any pay off for the player. A lot of us spent a lot of time and money on the trilogy and we were rewarded with crap. No matter which ending you pick, you had to take a bite off of the crap sandwich and enjoy the taste because BioWare wasn't going to let you get away with a clean taste in your mouth. Pick control you die and never see anybody you care about ever again and your friends are all Reapers. Pick synthesis and you rape the galaxy. Pick destroy and you kill the Geth and EDI. The message? Victory always blows.

If there was no payoff for the player then there would be no ending...

There's more to a payoff than a denouement. Satisfaction is a big part of that.

Thats a straw-mann just like how ME1 and ME2 had a small amount of rage just like ME3.  There's no such thing as a 100% satifactory rating and shortening the quote won't help you.

That's not true.  The rage agaist ME3's ending far overshadowed any amount of dissastisfaction against ME or ME2.  This wasn't a small group of people.  The loathing expressed towards ME3's ending was both deep and broad, and in a recent podcast Bioware even (grudgingly) admitted this and admitted this was obvious early.  You don't "rework" your ending to satisfy a few complainers.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[dreman9999]

At op, Dragon age and Buldersgate 1 and 2 had the dreams.
The darkspawn in DA: O was an ubeatable foe that could not be beat conventioally. 
ME2, DA:O  were extremely nihilstic.
And the issue of transhuman was in ME from ME2.

[dreman9999]

IanPolaris wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

knightnblu wrote... 
 
There was never any pay off for the player. A lot of us spent a lot of time and money on the trilogy and we were rewarded with crap. No matter which ending you pick, you had to take a bite off of the crap sandwich and enjoy the taste because BioWare wasn't going to let you get away with a clean taste in your mouth. Pick control you die and never see anybody you care about ever again and your friends are all Reapers. Pick synthesis and you rape the galaxy. Pick destroy and you kill the Geth and EDI. The message? Victory always blows.

If there was no payoff for the player then there would be no ending...

There's more to a payoff than a denouement. Satisfaction is a big part of that.

Thats a straw-mann just like how ME1 and ME2 had a small amount of rage just like ME3.  There's no such thing as a 100% satifactory rating and shortening the quote won't help you.

That's not true.  The rage agaist ME3's ending far overshadowed any amount of dissastisfaction against ME or ME2.  This wasn't a small group of people.  The loathing expressed towards ME3's ending was both deep and broad, and in a recent podcast Bioware even (grudgingly) admitted this and admitted this was obvious early.  You don't "rework" your ending to satisfy a few complainers.

-Polaris

Since they did rework there ending...Why are people still complaining?

[blueumi]

[/quote]Yep!  ME3 has also sold more then ME1 and ME2 at launch.
[/quote]

true but then people never sent returned mass effect 1 2 or dragon age for a full refund the same month it came out after geting the worst ending in video game history

[r3apz515]

OP hasnt even beaten it on Insanity. lol.

go away scrub, game was a good evolment from previous titiles, each being different in style and gameplay...cant handle little things..

go play cod.

[blueumi]

yes bioware did what they did with dragon age 2 dumed down the game and adding main stream rubbish like jessica chobot going after the main stream is really not working well for ea just take a look at the shares

core gamers will pay more and will stay casual gamers will never complete the game in the first place and already long since left only the core gamer is left when you want to sell dlc

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...

For the most part the game was a success right up until it came time to close the story. Sure there were some fumbles prior to that point, but they could be forgiven if the original ending had not been completely screwed up. But rather than to have redone the offending ending, BioWare chose to fill in some plot holes, add some cut scenes, and give Shepard more dialog and let it go. That made the ending more palatable, but it still wasn't the ending we were looking to get.
 
There was never any pay off for the player. A lot of us spent a lot of time and money on the trilogy and we were rewarded with crap. No matter which ending you pick, you had to take a bite off of the crap sandwich and enjoy the taste because BioWare wasn't going to let you get away with a clean taste in your mouth. Pick control you die and never see anybody you care about ever again and your friends are all Reapers. Pick synthesis and you rape the galaxy. Pick destroy and you kill the Geth and EDI. The message? Victory always blows.
 
The fans hammered them, professional writers hammered them, college lit professors hammered them, and they thought that everybody just wanted closure. See, when you have your head so far up your backside it is difficult to hear what folks are saying. But the "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude of BioWare persists to this day precisely because of that. The attitude of BioWare couldn't have been made any clearer than by the statements made by them at a college seminar for game creators when they stated that they don't care what gamers think. They only care what the game creator community thinks. Why do you think that they got 75 perfect game reviews? Why do you think that most people never completed the game? How many game reviewers completed the game? Damned few I would bet.
 
The problem is that BioWare believes too much of its own press.

A bit more scatalogical than I'd have put it, but I agree with everything here.

Biwoare totally forgot at the end, that games are entertainment as much as, if not more than, art.  And that when you claim player agency, you have to take the player's desires into account too.

[dreman9999]

[quote]blueumi wrote...


[/quote]Yep!  ME3 has also sold more then ME1 and ME2 at launch.
[/quote]

true but then people never sent returned mass effect 1 2 or dragon age for a full refund the same month it came out after geting the worst ending in video game history [/quote]
That issue was because of the ending. More people got to the end of ME3 then ME1 or ME2.  That points to the fact that people enjoyed ME3 enough to get to the end unlike DA2. The mass majority of people who are upset with ME3 state it's because of the ending...Hence why BW fixed the ending.

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

knightnblu wrote...

For the most part the game was a success right up until it came time to close the story. Sure there were some fumbles prior to that point, but they could be forgiven if the original ending had not been completely screwed up. But rather than to have redone the offending ending, BioWare chose to fill in some plot holes, add some cut scenes, and give Shepard more dialog and let it go. That made the ending more palatable, but it still wasn't the ending we were looking to get.
 
There was never any pay off for the player. A lot of us spent a lot of time and money on the trilogy and we were rewarded with crap. No matter which ending you pick, you had to take a bite off of the crap sandwich and enjoy the taste because BioWare wasn't going to let you get away with a clean taste in your mouth. Pick control you die and never see anybody you care about ever again and your friends are all Reapers. Pick synthesis and you rape the galaxy. Pick destroy and you kill the Geth and EDI. The message? Victory always blows.
 
The fans hammered them, professional writers hammered them, college lit professors hammered them, and they thought that everybody just wanted closure. See, when you have your head so far up your backside it is difficult to hear what folks are saying. But the "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude of BioWare persists to this day precisely because of that. The attitude of BioWare couldn't have been made any clearer than by the statements made by them at a college seminar for game creators when they stated that they don't care what gamers think. They only care what the game creator community thinks. Why do you think that they got 75 perfect game reviews? Why do you think that most people never completed the game? How many game reviewers completed the game? Damned few I would bet.
 
The problem is that BioWare believes too much of its own press.

A bit more scatalogical than I'd have put it, but I agree with everything here.

Biwoare totally forgot at the end, that games are entertainment as much as, if not more than, art.  And that when you claim player agency, you have to take the player's desires into account too.

Why do you think they fixed the endings then?

[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

knightnblu wrote...

For the most part the game was a success right up until it came time to close the story. Sure there were some fumbles prior to that point, but they could be forgiven if the original ending had not been completely screwed up. But rather than to have redone the offending ending, BioWare chose to fill in some plot holes, add some cut scenes, and give Shepard more dialog and let it go. That made the ending more palatable, but it still wasn't the ending we were looking to get.
 
There was never any pay off for the player. A lot of us spent a lot of time and money on the trilogy and we were rewarded with crap. No matter which ending you pick, you had to take a bite off of the crap sandwich and enjoy the taste because BioWare wasn't going to let you get away with a clean taste in your mouth. Pick control you die and never see anybody you care about ever again and your friends are all Reapers. Pick synthesis and you rape the galaxy. Pick destroy and you kill the Geth and EDI. The message? Victory always blows.
 
The fans hammered them, professional writers hammered them, college lit professors hammered them, and they thought that everybody just wanted closure. See, when you have your head so far up your backside it is difficult to hear what folks are saying. But the "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude of BioWare persists to this day precisely because of that. The attitude of BioWare couldn't have been made any clearer than by the statements made by them at a college seminar for game creators when they stated that they don't care what gamers think. They only care what the game creator community thinks. Why do you think that they got 75 perfect game reviews? Why do you think that most people never completed the game? How many game reviewers completed the game? Damned few I would bet.
 
The problem is that BioWare believes too much of its own press.

A bit more scatalogical than I'd have put it, but I agree with everything here.

Biwoare totally forgot at the end, that games are entertainment as much as, if not more than, art.  And that when you claim player agency, you have to take the player's desires into account too.

Why do you think they fixed the endings then?

Umm, they didn't?

They added a little more context, but that's a bandaid on a bullet wound.  It's still the same endings, with a "Rocks fall" alternative.

[CitizenThom]

In some ways it was familiar to the formula of their older Black Isle games... the sense of feeling rushed in ME3 was a lot like Baldur's Gate 2. If I hadn't played the latter, I probably would've skipped a lot of the side missions, and ended up in the Underdark with an underlevelled party ha ha.


edit: p.s. on a completely different note, after reading the above post... art and entertainment are not mutually exclusive. That's only a myth created by unentertaining artists to try and level the playing field.

Modifié par CitizenThom, 24 août 2012 - 08:07 .

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

knightnblu wrote...

For the most part the game was a success right up until it came time to close the story. Sure there were some fumbles prior to that point, but they could be forgiven if the original ending had not been completely screwed up. But rather than to have redone the offending ending, BioWare chose to fill in some plot holes, add some cut scenes, and give Shepard more dialog and let it go. That made the ending more palatable, but it still wasn't the ending we were looking to get.
 
There was never any pay off for the player. A lot of us spent a lot of time and money on the trilogy and we were rewarded with crap. No matter which ending you pick, you had to take a bite off of the crap sandwich and enjoy the taste because BioWare wasn't going to let you get away with a clean taste in your mouth. Pick control you die and never see anybody you care about ever again and your friends are all Reapers. Pick synthesis and you rape the galaxy. Pick destroy and you kill the Geth and EDI. The message? Victory always blows.
 
The fans hammered them, professional writers hammered them, college lit professors hammered them, and they thought that everybody just wanted closure. See, when you have your head so far up your backside it is difficult to hear what folks are saying. But the "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude of BioWare persists to this day precisely because of that. The attitude of BioWare couldn't have been made any clearer than by the statements made by them at a college seminar for game creators when they stated that they don't care what gamers think. They only care what the game creator community thinks. Why do you think that they got 75 perfect game reviews? Why do you think that most people never completed the game? How many game reviewers completed the game? Damned few I would bet.
 
The problem is that BioWare believes too much of its own press.

A bit more scatalogical than I'd have put it, but I agree with everything here.

Biwoare totally forgot at the end, that games are entertainment as much as, if not more than, art.  And that when you claim player agency, you have to take the player's desires into account too.

Why do you think they fixed the endings then?

Umm, they didn't?

They added a little more context, but that's a bandaid on a bullet wound.  It's still the same endings, with a "Rocks fall" alternative.

No...They fixed it. You just don't like how they fixed it. Before it was unclear to what was going on. They made it clear what going on now.  It can be better but it is fixed.

[Iakus]

CitizenThom wrote...
edit: p.s. on a completely different note, after reading the above post... art and entertainment are not mutually exclusive. That's only a myth created by unentertaining artists to try and level the playing field.

They're not.  But one can overcompensate on one and neglect the other.

[dreman9999]

CitizenThom wrote...



edit: p.s. on a completely different note, after reading the above post... art and entertainment are not mutually exclusive. That's only a myth created by unentertaining artists to try and level the playing field.

Thank you. That is a fantastic point.

[macrocarl]

I'm sorry OP but ME has been around for a bunch of years and the fan base and the BW writers have seen and done that already. Why more of the same? I'm glad it went down the way it did.

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

CitizenThom wrote...
edit: p.s. on a completely different note, after reading the above post... art and entertainment are not mutually exclusive. That's only a myth created by unentertaining artists to try and level the playing field.

They're not.  But one can overcompensate on one and neglect the other.

This is a game were you constaly go to battle and shot things,then later have deep emotional moments. They did not skip on the entertainment part of ME3.

[CitizenThom]

iakus wrote...

CitizenThom wrote...
edit: p.s. on a completely different note, after reading the above post... art and entertainment are not mutually exclusive. That's only a myth created by unentertaining artists to try and level the playing field.

They're not.  But one can overcompensate on one and neglect the other.

True. Btw, I only meant to add to your point, not contradict it.

[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

CitizenThom wrote...
edit: p.s. on a completely different note, after reading the above post... art and entertainment are not mutually exclusive. That's only a myth created by unentertaining artists to try and level the playing field.

They're not.  But one can overcompensate on one and neglect the other.

This is a game were you constaly go to battle and shot things,then later have deep emotional moments. They did not skip on the entertainment part of ME3.

For myself, negative emotions are not entertaining.  And the last 10-20 minutes are so are chock full of them.  Sadness, melancholoy, futility, despair.  And that's with EC.

And this is why I think the entire Mass Effect IP needs to be shelved for several years so everyone can get some distance from it.  Then start from scratch.

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

CitizenThom wrote...
edit: p.s. on a completely different note, after reading the above post... art and entertainment are not mutually exclusive. That's only a myth created by unentertaining artists to try and level the playing field.

They're not.  But one can overcompensate on one and neglect the other.

This is a game were you constaly go to battle and shot things,then later have deep emotional moments. They did not skip on the entertainment part of ME3.

For myself, negative emotions are not entertaining.  And the last 10-20 minutes are so are chock full of them.  Sadness, melancholoy, futility, despair.  And that's with EC.

And this is why I think the entire Mass Effect IP needs to be shelved for several years so everyone can get some distance from it.  Then start from scratch.

This is a war story. You would be seen as Naive to think nothing negavite will happen in a war story.
Heck, the negative emotion have been in the series since the first game. So your excuse is baseless.
Heck, If you want to go farther with it, let's look at the ending they orignally planned to do. Both choice in that ending would still end with hopelessness even more then what we have.

[Memnon]

dreman9999 wrote...
No...They fixed it. You just don't like how they fixed it. Before it was unclear to what was going on. They made it clear what going on now.  It can be better but it is fixed.

You are arguing about something that's subjective as if it's a point of fact. It's fixed in your opinion, not in mine. Before, the endings were stupid; now the endings have been retconned somewhat and explained in more detail, but they're still stupid - I would argue even moreso. That's my opinion

Modifié par Stornskar, 24 août 2012 - 08:25 .

[inko1nsiderate]

I assume you are referring to synthesis with the attack on transhumanism, but to be fair, how does transhumanism not crop up in a game when the main character has died and then been rebuilt with enough cybernetic implants to have their glowing wires show from beneath the skin (and if you are Renegade you eventually get Illusive Man eyes)? It seems like the topic inevitably has to come up at some point in the game.

That isn't a defense of synthesis, merely an observation that transhumanist ideas might be appropriate topics of discussion in the game due to the events of ME2.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 24 août 2012 - 08:28 .