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ME3 failed because it deviated from Bioware's standard formula


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#176
Samtheman63

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Reapers were build up for two games to be a foe that can not be defeated conventionally!
Not even with full straight of all species in galaxy united, let alone severely beaten species finally united after months of war.


Huh?
In ME1 we found out that thier entire plan hinged on taking out the head of the Galaxy's government and locking down all the relays. We then killed one in a single shot after the shields failed. We then killed an incomplete one with small arms fire on a suicide mission, which we then walked away from with nary a scratch.
<_<

it took an entire fleet to defeat sov.

and the human reaper was nowhere near finished

#177
Baa Baa

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Samtheman63 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Reapers were build up for two games to be a foe that can not be defeated conventionally!
Not even with full straight of all species in galaxy united, let alone severely beaten species finally united after months of war.


Huh?
In ME1 we found out that thier entire plan hinged on taking out the head of the Galaxy's government and locking down all the relays. We then killed one in a single shot after the shields failed. We then killed an incomplete one with small arms fire on a suicide mission, which we then walked away from with nary a scratch.
<_<

it took an entire fleet to defeat sov.

and the human reaper was nowhere near finished


Sov had tons of Geth ships with him

#178
Samtheman63

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Baa Baa wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Reapers were build up for two games to be a foe that can not be defeated conventionally!
Not even with full straight of all species in galaxy united, let alone severely beaten species finally united after months of war.


Huh?
In ME1 we found out that thier entire plan hinged on taking out the head of the Galaxy's government and locking down all the relays. We then killed one in a single shot after the shields failed. We then killed an incomplete one with small arms fire on a suicide mission, which we then walked away from with nary a scratch.
<_<

it took an entire fleet to defeat sov.

and the human reaper was nowhere near finished


Sov had tons of Geth ships with him

thats right..

#179
DecCylonus

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Twinzam.V wrote...

DecCylonus wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

DecCylonus wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

We just wanted a game we would like. Since the daring approach failed, now we retreat and pick the safe route, no risk, stick to the formula.

What we're really saying here, Bioware, is that we really don't want to dislike your games.


What people are really saying here is: "Bioware, stick to the formula, OR ELSE we will dislike your games." :?


Not necessarily they can have the "WTF have you smoked approach" but as a safeguard include "no strange stuff smoked aproach".


Unnecessary. 99.9% of video games have "no strange stuff smoked approach," also known as conventional victory. Why is it such a crime for one game to force you to sacrifice something to have victory? Aren't people tired of 1950's Hollywood endings in games yet? After all the sacrifices required in the ME series, it would have been cheap to have Shepard and the fleets blow away the Reapers without losing anything.


What's the problem with that? For me there's daring and there's daring TMNT Michael Bay movie. 


It would be like Saving Private Ryan ending without a single American killed in the final battle. The overarching theme in the Mass Effect trilogy is that victory requires sacrifice. For the entire trilogy, Shepard has had to sacrifice people s/he cares about, as well as personal honor and sometimes principles, to get the job done. Moreover it has been established that the Reapers are an overwhelming force. To suddenly have a "Shepard wins" button at the end of the game, without a final sacrifice, wouldn't be true to the trilogy. It would be a cheap thrill.

#180
IUDEX99

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greghorvath wrote...

I wouldn't call it a failure but they did overestimate the mental capacities of the fanbase. They should have given the mindless masses of drooling morons what their entitled little intelligence could handle. So I guess it is kind of a failure.


The 'failure' is neither in connection with the fanbase nor with the little intelligence of 'drooling morons'.

It is as simple as your argumentation is, but the arguments are different.

The fact that the ending of ME3 was not handled well by those who played at least one of the previous games is really quite simple.
It is a question of hitting people's expectations.
If you make two games (movies, books) of an announced trilogy and publish the third one you did arouse expectations in your fanbase (readers, watchers). You brought some 'themes' into your narration, you did uses special techniques and styles. If you suddenly change your 'themes' or topics, completely change your style of narration you either irritate your audium (in the best case), confuse them or bring them to a point were they refuse your story.

Which means you have to be carefull if you make bigger changes.
If you change something for dramatic reasons, plot reasons or for which reason ever you want to have the audience reacting like "Oooops, what's that?....Interesting...." or "Hey, that's cool...." but never want to see them completely speakless, confused and thinking "wtf is that s..t?".

This has nohting to do with the incompetence of people understanding the philosophy and the mysterious appearance of the 'godchild'. This context is neither complicate nor hard to understand.
The problem is that the first two games never gave any kind of hint, the topic was never introduced, came abrupt and sinply does not fit to the first two games.
And neither the EC nor any DLC (BW, surprise me!) will change this situation.
It's like watching the first two movies of a well made Fantasy or Knights & Swords movie and in the last 10 minutes of the third film a Rambo-kind-guy appears, kills everyone including the protagonist of the series with a M249 SAW and the movie ends. No introduction, no hints, abrupt change of the story. A clear 'wtf is this s..t'-situation.

Just my two cents.

#181
Batnat

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Hm...to post or not to post...
Ok, let´s try this without ruffling too many feathers.

I liked ME3 during my first playthrough...until the ending, which left me...stranded? in a way...it was kinda the perfect WTF?-moment. I needed a few days to actually come to terms with it. Having thought about Shepard´s possible indoctrination long before ME3 came out I naturally gravitaded towards IT...nothing else made sense to me.
These days...post-EC...it still is the only way for me to stomach the endings and like...well accept is probably the better word...them enough not to let them destroy my enjoyment of the overall series too much.

Having played ME3 with 3 different Sheps so far I´ve also come to realise, that the endings are not my only gripe with the game. I also dislike the prologue, the missing neutral dialogue option and the overall feeling that pretty much all of my so far quite different 20 Shepards will end up as almost the same kind of (dumb) pod person free to choose their favorite flavor of crap.

Did I expect too much?...my prior experience with BioWare games include ME1&2 as well as the DA games. I still have to catch up on Jade Empire and KOTOR, which I got a while back but haven´t had the energy to play yet.
Anyway...considering both the ME and DA franchises not to mention some of the pre-release statements by BioWare employees themselves (and I´m only refering to those statements made very shortly before release!), I don´t think my expectations were too high. I basically expected the SM on steroids like quite a few people around here.

I can´t speak for anyone else but me when it comes to the following reasoning, so those of you who don´t share my opinion, that´s perfectly alright, I don´t expect you to.

For me ME3 "failed" because it was supposed to be the finale of a trilogy but felt like a regular single game. Which I suppose caters to the advertising statement of being the perfect place to start. :pinched:
Which quite frankly is stupid! Noone could ever give me one good reason to start a trilogy with the last part. I actually played ME2 before ME1 when a friend of mine introduced me to the games. The only reason I did that was because I had problems installing ME1 and couldn´t wait to play ME2. Honestly I can´t remember that first playthrough anymore...I doubt it made much sense to me, I only know that after finishing it I did everything in my power to get ME1 running so I could really experience the ME-story.

I´m quite aware that ME is a hybrid between RPG and shooter, both ME1 and ME2 have some elements which needed some work to be "perfect", but all in all I didn´t mind too much. The setting, story and most of all the characters made things like a too big/small inventory, ME1s gameplay, ME2´s flying flint aka Hammerhead pretty much insignificant. I love these games despite their little flaws...I don´t even mind the occasional plothole now and then.

ME3 though...I don´t really consider it a RPG anymore to be honest...it´s more a shooter/interactive movie hybrid for me. The protagonist gets too streamlined character-wise, not to mention seems to have lost some braincells along the way.
I definately miss the neutral dialogue option and more distinction between paragon and renegade responses. Let´s not even get to the overbearing auto-dialogue.
The prologue was...urgh, I can´t think of a word...I have no idea how that can be the perfect intro for someone new to the series...except of course the pure shooter crowd who probably doesn´t give a rat´s ass about the story.
If you start a romance in ME3 you get what...one specific LI dialogue then silence until the final let´s bang scene? ME2 LIs get even less.
One of my favorite moments in the game is the bottle shooting scene with Garrus...that´s exactly what ME is about for me...the characters and your Shepards´ relationships with them. The fighting and galaxy saving for me is just a bonus.
I AM of course biased a bit, because I´ve come to realise that RPGs are really my favorite VG genre. I don´t like shooters all that much with a few exceptions. I DO love the shooter element in ME especially the gameplay in ME3 but it´s still not as important to me than the story and characters.

Ok...this is getting too long. I don´t think I need to say too much when it comes to the endings, there´re enough threads already which deal with them.
For me the original shown endings were abhorrent. Post-EC I´ve come to accept them...with headcanon I can even like them to a certain degree. With DLC they could still even turn into great, though I doubt that!
But having said that, I did not expect the end of the trilogy to go completely against the established lore, neither did I expect for Shepard to get kicked to the curb like this (like I said...MY interpretation).
I hate the whole crucible concept, it makes no sense to me whatsoever, if it doesn´t turn out to be a red herring, which it probably won´t, it´s complete bulls*** and then I have to say "yes, I definately expected more from the writers!"...it´s not like they didn´t prove they can do better, even in the same game...Tuchanka, Rannoch...some of the greatest moments of the trilogy are found in ME3.
That´s also why I don´t consider it a complete failure, that would be totally unfair. I do stand by my opinion though, that it would have been "perfect" if it would have still gotten the RPG treatment...including varying endings from "happy" to "total loss" with heroic sacrifice and differing losses in between...without crucible/catalyst.

And considering the art excuse...
I play VGs for entertainment, if I want art I visit a gallery or museum or watch an arthouse film!
VGs can be art, yes, for me they´re art when they can draw me in, get me invested in the story, let me care about the characters and make me feel real emotions. ME3 did all that...long before the ending...and it had absolutely nothing to do with a random kid on earth, some superweapon or a ghostly ReaperAI!

I´m all for change etc...but considering ME in essence as a RPG I don´t need change so much as variables. I expect a "story-driven" RPG to provide me with the options of at least a happy ending, a bittersweet ending and a defeat ending. If it has even more, the better. I do not think that´s asking too much, especially from a company who has shown in the past that they can live up to that!

For those still reading...thanks for your time and interest! :D

#182
Blueprotoss

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Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

By failed I mean the fan backlash at a time when the  trilogy was suppose to be at it's apex it hit it's low point instead.

ME3 didn't need PTSD sequences, nihilism, an unbeatable foe, or transhuman nonsense, it just needed a conventional victory with a few varying end choices based on player morality. Nothing fancy but who cares? Stick with what works.

I'm sure yo haven't played that many Bioware RPGs by saying this especially when every Bioware game has a small uproar like most games do.

iakus wrote...

And I'd rather Bioware stick to experimenting with new IPs, rather than gettiing overly artsy with the conclusion to a trilogy.

How is that when Bioware hasn't changed since Baldur's Gate.  Btw if heard of the Old Republic and C&C: Generals 2 then you would know they are experiments like most of their games.  Ironically the largest experiment done by Bioware was ME.

AresKeith wrote...

this would have made more sense http://social.biowar.../index/13721326

A coventional victory wouldn't happen against the Reapers.

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

ME3 didn't fail because Bioware tried adding depth to the plot.

It failed because they bludgeoned subtlety to death, and the "profound" themes they apparently wanted to convey remained unrefined and, ultimately, felt contrived and shallow.

This is ironic because some people said a similar story with ME1 and ME2.

Jade8aby88 wrote...

I disagree, there have been many analysis' on it. The only reason it sold so well is because EA probably spent more money on marketing then they did on the actual product.

The broader appeal they stamped on the game is evident in itself. From BioWare quotes of "This is a great place for newcomers" to in-game stuff like having London as the final battle area (London 2012).

Thats like saying that Skyrim, Diablo 3, and RE: ORC weren't successful.  Battlefield 3 would be an example of a large amount of marketing and I'm pretty sure ME1 had more marketing with Microsoft then ME2/ME3 had with EA.

ME3 is a great spot because it has the best gameplay out of the series. 

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 23 août 2012 - 05:46 .


#183
Guest_DuckSoup_*

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psrz wrote...

DuckSoup wrote...

And boy am I sick to death of seeing the same discussions. You people need to move on. 


If you're so sick of it, why do you keep reading them ? More so, why do you participate in them ? It seems you need to follow your own advice.


:crying:

<_<

#184
Ticonderoga117

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Samtheman63 wrote...
it took an entire fleet to defeat sov.

and the human reaper was nowhere near finished


Wrong. It took one shot from Normandy to take down Sovereign, after his shields were taken out. That's all.

#185
Blueprotoss

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...
it took an entire fleet to defeat sov.

and the human reaper was nowhere near finished


Wrong. It took one shot from Normandy to take down Sovereign, after his shields were taken out. That's all.

Yet you forgot about all the damage that Sovreign did to the Aliance and the Citadel forces.  Another thing is that Sovreign was weakened by Vigil's help and Saren's resurrection.  The Normandy did the final blow and isn't the juggernaut you might think it is.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 23 août 2012 - 05:31 .


#186
Baa Baa

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Blueprotoss wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...
it took an entire fleet to defeat sov.

and the human reaper was nowhere near finished


Wrong. It took one shot from Normandy to take down Sovereign, after his shields were taken out. That's all.

Yet you forgot about all the damage that Sovreign did to the Aliance and the Citadel forces.  Another thing is that Sovreign was weakened by Vigil's help and Saren's resurrection.  The Normandy did the final blow and isn't the juggernaut you might think it is.

Sovereign had help from tons of Geth fighters in that battle.
Why do people keep forgetting to remember this?

#187
Ticonderoga117

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Blueprotoss wrote...
Yet you forgot about all the damage that Sovreign did to the Aliance and the Citadel forces.  Another thing is that Sovreign was weakened by Vigil's help and Saren's resurrection.  The Normandy did the final blow and isn't the juggernaut you might think it is.


Sovereign, at best, took out 1 Turian crusier and 3-4 Alliance crusiers. And your right, Sovereign isn't a juggernaught at all. That's why he needed Saren and the Heretic Geth.

#188
CroGamer002

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...
it took an entire fleet to defeat sov.

and the human reaper was nowhere near finished


Wrong. It took one shot from Normandy to take down Sovereign, after his shields were taken out. That's all.


And guess WHO taken down those shields?

NOT THE DAMN FLEET!

#189
Ticonderoga117

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Mesina2 wrote...
And guess WHO taken down those shields?

NOT THE DAMN FLEET!


Exactly. Commander Shepard. A mere human.
So, you keep thinking they're invincible. Meanwhile, I'll keep ME1 and ME2 in mind.

#190
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DecCylonus,

in any case, the numerous innovations people have liked prove that they don't equate formula and enjoyment.

#191
Blueprotoss

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Baa Baa wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...
it took an entire fleet to defeat sov.

and the human reaper was nowhere near finished


Wrong. It took one shot from Normandy to take down Sovereign, after his shields were taken out. That's all.

Yet you forgot about all the damage that Sovreign did to the Aliance and the Citadel forces.  Another thing is that Sovreign was weakened by Vigil's help and Saren's resurrection.  The Normandy did the final blow and isn't the juggernaut you might think it is.

Sovereign had help from tons of Geth fighters in that battle.
Why do people keep forgetting to remember this?

Yet you forget that Sovreign is a Reaper.

#192
Blueprotoss

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
Yet you forgot about all the damage that Sovreign did to the Aliance and the Citadel forces.  Another thing is that Sovreign was weakened by Vigil's help and Saren's resurrection.  The Normandy did the final blow and isn't the juggernaut you might think it is.


Sovereign, at best, took out 1 Turian crusier and 3-4 Alliance crusiers. And your right, Sovereign isn't a juggernaught at all. That's why he needed Saren and the Heretic Geth.

Sovreign destroyed a lot more ships especially when most of the Citadel fleet and a couple Alliance fleets were destroyed.

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
And guess WHO taken down those shields?

NOT THE DAMN FLEET!


Exactly. Commander Shepard. A mere human. 
So, you keep thinking they're invincible. Meanwhile, I'll keep ME1 and ME2 in mind. 

Thats only if Saren didn't committ suicide.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 23 août 2012 - 06:03 .


#193
Baa Baa

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Blueprotoss wrote...

Baa Baa wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...
it took an entire fleet to defeat sov.

and the human reaper was nowhere near finished


Wrong. It took one shot from Normandy to take down Sovereign, after his shields were taken out. That's all.

Yet you forgot about all the damage that Sovreign did to the Aliance and the Citadel forces.  Another thing is that Sovreign was weakened by Vigil's help and Saren's resurrection.  The Normandy did the final blow and isn't the juggernaut you might think it is.

Sovereign had help from tons of Geth fighters in that battle.
Why do people keep forgetting to remember this?

Yet you forget that Sovreign is a Reaper.

When the hell did I forget that? Sovereign didn't do much in that battle so there's no real way to determine how powerful he really was. He took out like two ships by running into them and then docked with the Citadel. Most of the other casualties of the fleet were a result of it's Heretic allies.
The "Sovereign was taken out by the Normandy in one shot!" and "Sovereign took out nearly an entire fleet!" arguements are both bull****.
Now, when did I forget that Sovereign was a Reaper?

#194
Ticonderoga117

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Blueprotoss wrote...
Sovreign destroyed a lot more ships especially when most of the Citadel fleet and a couple Alliance fleets were destroyed.  


What?
The Alliance lost eight ships.
8.
Not 24.
Not 48.
Not 16.
8.

I'm astounded that you could lie that blatantly since it's quite explicit that ONLY 5th fleet took part  during the battle from the Alliance.

Modifié par Ticonderoga117, 23 août 2012 - 05:56 .


#195
DecCylonus

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
Yet you forgot about all the damage that Sovreign did to the Aliance and the Citadel forces.  Another thing is that Sovreign was weakened by Vigil's help and Saren's resurrection.  The Normandy did the final blow and isn't the juggernaut you might think it is.


Sovereign, at best, took out 1 Turian crusier and 3-4 Alliance crusiers. And your right, Sovereign isn't a juggernaught at all. That's why he needed Saren and the Heretic Geth.


Sovereign took out the Destiny Ascension, the mightiest dreadnought in the galaxy. Whether or not it is destroyed is up to Shepard, but it was defeated. Furthermore Sovereign successfully took on on two fleets with only one fleet of its own. And it did it while anchoring itself to the Citadel, sacrificing any ability to maneuver. One of those fleets, the Citadel Defense Fleet, is the largest in the galaxy. According to the codex it was largely destroyed in the battle. And if you watch the cutscene, the Geth are mostly cannon fodder and do little of the killing. Sovereign is shown to kill most of the ships. All of those things taken together show the power of one Reaper.

#196
Ticonderoga117

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DecCylonus wrote...
Sovereign took out the Destiny Ascension...


Hold that thought.
Sovereign did not fight the Ascension.
At all. That was the Heretic Geth fleet.

Try again.

#197
DecCylonus

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Nyoka wrote...

DecCylonus,

in any case, the numerous innovations people have liked prove that they don't equate formula and enjoyment.


It seems I misinterpreted your post, and I apologize. However, the OP is certainly saying that sticking to the formula = enjoyment, and many people are agreeing with him. It seems a lot of the BSN wants to hold Bioware hostage to their narrow definition of what makes a good story and a good ending.

#198
DecCylonus

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

DecCylonus wrote...
Sovereign took out the Destiny Ascension...


Hold that thought.
Sovereign did not fight the Ascension.
At all. That was the Heretic Geth fleet.

Try again.


Where is that stated?

#199
Blueprotoss

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
Sovreign destroyed a lot more ships especially when most of the Citadel fleet and a couple Alliance fleets were destroyed.  


What?
The Alliance lost eight ships.
8.
Not 24.
Not 48.
Not 16.
8.

I'm astounded that you could lie that blatantly since it's quite explicit that ONLY 5th fleet took part  during the battle from the Alliance.

Thats if you didn't save the Council.

#200
Blueprotoss

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Baa Baa wrote...

When the hell did I forget that? Sovereign didn't do much in that battle so there's no real way to determine how powerful he really was. He took out like two ships by running into them and then docked with the Citadel. Most of the other casualties of the fleet were a result of it's Heretic allies.
The "Sovereign was taken out by the Normandy in one shot!" and "Sovereign took out nearly an entire fleet!" arguements are both bull****.
Now, when did I forget that Sovereign was a Reaper?

The Geth are strong by themselves but Sovreign was the spear head in that fleet.