104 réponses à ce sujet

[Binary_Helix 1]

Tech armor stacks with defense matrix or fortification for massive DR. With the new DLC weapons you don't even need ammo powers for your guns to be strong now just ignore weight, carry a full load, and you've got a gun for every situation. Win.

Why bother with the standard soldier anymore? He was already the weakest class and now he's been replaced entirely, imo.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 23 août 2012 - 08:07 .

[zeypher]

Hmm i doubt it. A soldier specced with fortification and adrenaline rush for dr can reach 55% DR and having explosive burst of 170 dmg. In terms of damage a sentinel can never match that period.

[Binary_Helix 1]

I just don't see the purpose in the soldier class anymore. He doesn't excel in anything. He can't tank like he used to (as in ME1), he can't do the highest DPS anymore (like in ME2), he can't carry all the guns without penalty, he doesn't even have his signature class exclusive anymore the assault rifles. A lot of people (myself included) only play him out of class loyalty in ME3.

Where as the sentinel soldier actually plays more like a traditional soldier at least in the ME1 style. It just feels right to me.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 23 août 2012 - 09:42 .

[zeypher]

Hmm well, i still stick by my soldier, been playing him since 1. Weight thing hurt sure, but then i got the particle rifle with explosive ammo. Nothing matches the dmg a soldier can do with explosive ammo.

[TevinterMagister]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

Where as the sentinel soldier actually plays more like a traditional soldier at least in the ME1 style. It just feels right to me.

Isn't that a good thing? I mean what matters is that you have the tools that make you enjoy the game, or is that little "Soldier" tag on the character screen more important?

[tholloway93]

the only handy thing i find about the soldier is adrenaline rush is an instant reload which can be good on weapons such as claymore, widow etc. but i do agree its still a lil bit of a redundant class now considering i think they did a survey before and over 50% played soldier me1/2

[BlessedSoldier]

zeypher wrote...

Hmm i doubt it. A soldier specced with fortification and adrenaline rush for dr can reach 55% DR and having explosive burst of 170 dmg. In terms of damage a sentinel can never match that period.

Incorrect. Double throw with reset on BE and Liara allows a Sentinel to do massive damage at a very short cooldown and dont even get me started on Dark Channel. Plus you still have the great power that is lift grenade and are capable of lugging around a much larger arsenal of weapons. Only the Sentinel can carry around the Claymore, Javelin(That is in SP right?), and Revenant, Scorpion, and Hurricane all at once.

Add in squad mate ammo powers and well....Soldier is just crappy.

Also the Soldier's AR plus Fortification combo only gives protection 55% while active while the sentinel's defense is 70% all the time meaning your defenses are never down.

Plus we get TWO omni blades!

[Simbacca]

Tank Sentinels can carry more guns but don't receive any of the weapon damage buffs the Soldier can get. Tank Sentinels also spend a lot of time setting off biotic detonations with the only skill they can use, Throw. Soldiers focus more on the weapons they do bring.

[rumination888]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

.... he can't do the highest DPS anymore (like in ME2) -

25% more weapon damage, 20% more headshot damage, 40% more ammo damage, Adrenaline Rush, and Inferno Ammo says hi.

[poptdp]

soldier = frag grenades (my favourite), all ammo types for all situations, awesome melee, and can equip all guns (only power worth using AR and concussive shot, and i dont even use them that much). soldier ftw

[zeypher]

With fortification and combat mastery specced, my explosive burst does 170 dmg. With a weapon like particle rifle with a crazy rof of 800, which is around 13 rounds per second and each round having 50% chance to proc explosive burst.
Yea im sorry but thats a lot more dmg than a sentinel can dish out.

[JaegerBane]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

I just don't see the purpose in the soldier class anymore. He doesn't excel in anything. He can't tank like he used to (as in ME1), he can't do the highest DPS anymore (like in ME2), he can't carry all the guns without penalty, he doesn't even have his signature class exclusive anymore the assault rifles.

He does have the best *weapon* DPS, and assault rifles weren't his 'signature class exclusive' as they could be chosen by anyone on the Collector Ship less than a third of the way into the game.

If you're going to insist on playing your soldier sub-optimally, don't complain it doesn't work well.

Where as the sentinel soldier actually plays more like a traditional soldier at least in the ME1 style. It just feels right to me.

That's true, though the ME1 soldier was a downright silly class that's primary ability was being invincible - the combination of Immunity and AR had me literally melee'ing Thresher Maws to death, it was ridiculous.

The Sentinel got converted into a Tank in ME2 from the ME1-era jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none, so its not really a surprise its still a tank.

[Binary_Helix 1]

Infiltrator has the highest weapon DPS. In the MP cloak had to be given several nerfs from utility to damage because the class was too popular on the highest difficulties. Infiltrator made the game laughably easy and totally broke the balance.

As for the ARs non-soldiers had to use bonuses to acquire them in ME1 and ME2. Even then they did not have access to elite ARs like the Revenant. If the AR talent wasn't a soldier ability then what the hell was? If my soldier uses slam as a bonus does that make him a biotic? Bonuses made the gameplay fun but that's it. Otherwise each class had signature talents.

You seem to regard everything about the soldier as "silly". Adept was the easy mode of ME1. Just lift and singulairity everything including most bosses. It was so OP that they had to introduce biotic immune enemy defenses in ME2 for balance.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 25 août 2012 - 03:52 .

[sartt]

zeypher wrote...

Hmm well, i still stick by my soldier, been playing him since 1. Weight thing hurt sure, but then i got the particle rifle with explosive ammo. Nothing matches the dmg a soldier can do with explosive ammo.

explosive ammo? That ammo is only in ME 1

[RedCaesar97]

sartt wrote...

zeypher wrote...

Hmm well, i still stick by my soldier, been playing him since 1. Weight thing hurt sure, but then i got the particle rifle with explosive ammo. Nothing matches the dmg a soldier can do with explosive ammo.

explosive ammo? That ammo is only in ME 1

Incendiary Ammo rank 6 evolution: Explosive Burst

[capn233]

Hmmm interesting thread.

I think you don't need the Firepower pack to make this argument. Biotic Bomber stupidly powerful and tanky. If we go by the gold standard, ME2, Sentinel did tank really well but really the power synergy was a little lacking, partly due to the way Tech Armor worked. In ME3 Tech Armor was reworked so that it wasn't useful to use the cooldown in SP, and you didn't get squad CD reset, but on the flip side you get biotic combos and the nonsense "Reset on Detonation" evolution of a power that shouldn't even detonate combos.

If anything the Firepower pack likely helps Soldier the most though since you get powerful guns that work well with ARush. Take something like the Harrier... Soldier benefits the most because of the improved ammo efficiency with ARush meaning more firing time. Of course the counter would be that Sentinel doesn't need to fire their gun as much (nor does any other class including Infiltrator) and you would indeed be correct. But that still means that Firepower likely benefits Soldier the most, even if it doesn't make the class jump up to the most powerful.

[BlessedSoldier]

Not really capn233.

Put the harrier on an infiltrator with marksman and you can empty the clip within the 2.5 second 90% damage window of Tactical Cloak plus better and more headshots. If anything id say the firepower pack just hurt the Soldier's case.

Marksman Infiltrator: Better Gun damage dealer

Tank Sentinel: Better tank and gun user in general

The only exception may be Prothean Rifle since its unaffected by marksman and ineffective with tactical cloak but when you go back to the whole Harrier thing...yeah.

Modifié par BlessedSoldier, 25 août 2012 - 04:16 .

[JaegerBane]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

Infiltrator has the highest weapon DPS. In the MP cloak had to be given several nerfs from utility to damage because the class was too popular on the highest difficulties. Infiltrator made the game laughably easy and totally broke the balance.

Spike DPS, sure  - but its a sniper class. It *should* be the best at sniping.

Soldier's Particle Rifle + AR + Explosive Ammo likely spits out the heaviest sustained DPS, as the 1-sec proc cooldown turned out to be a myth.

As for the ARs non-soldiers had to use bonuses to acquire them in ME1 and ME2. Even then they did not have access to elite ARs like the Revenant. If the AR talent wasn't a soldier ability then what the hell was?

It should be self-evident that it was weapons training, and no game in the entire series restricted Assault Rifles to just the Soldier. The soldier's weapons bonus was the fact that it could carry the *majority* of weapons, not that it could carry assault rifles... as frankly, that wouldn't really be much of a bonus. The only Assault Rifles worth using in ME2 were available to all classes, anyway.

You seem to regard everything about the soldier as "silly". Adept was the easy mode of ME1. Just lift and singulairity everything including most bosses. It was so OP that they had to introduce biotic immune enemy defenses in ME2 for balance.

Hardly, I just think there are tanks, and there was the ME1 soldier. Do you actually think being so tough that melee'ing a thresher maw was an easy option to be a sensible state of affairs? Not that I thought tanking all the time made for interesting gameplay, just that there was a point when you had to stand back and question whether it made sense in game.

I guess what I'm saying is that, in ME1, the soldier was the tank class - its good DPS was almost secondary to its tanking. In ME2, the soldier was in the top end of weapon DPS, which it should have been, but didn't actually perform badly in any role due to its ammo and AR powers, with tanking now the domain of the Sentinel. In ME3 this hasn't really changed - the only thing that has is that powers have been expanded, so in my view its not really surprising that a class that depends on its powers performs well. That doesn't actually mean it out-soldiers the soldier, though.

As for the Adept - personally, I'd say the Vanguard was the 'Casual' mode, as it could do everything of note that the Adept could do, only faster, with more guns.  But yeah, it was easy. I don't really understand what this has to do with your thread, though.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 25 août 2012 - 09:11 .

[JaegerBane]

capn233 wrote...
If anything the Firepower pack likely helps Soldier the most though since you get powerful guns that work well with ARush. Take something like the Harrier... Soldier benefits the most because of the improved ammo efficiency with ARush meaning more firing time. Of course the counter would be that Sentinel doesn't need to fire their gun as much (nor does any other class including Infiltrator) and you would indeed be correct. But that still means that Firepower likely benefits Soldier the most, even if it doesn't make the class jump up to the most powerful.

Yeah, I don't really understand the argument that the Firepower pack helped the Sentinel more than the soldier. Harrier + AR + explosive is crazy, though not sure how ti compares to Particle Rifle plus those two factors. Hell, the one major weakness of the Harrier is its low clip and low reserve... which AR minimises.

[godlike13]

Firepower helped the Sentinel tons. Gave him the Punisher 

Modifié par godlike13, 25 août 2012 - 04:31 .

[capn233]

JaegerBane wrote...

Yeah, I don't really understand the argument that the Firepower pack helped the Sentinel more than the soldier. Harrier + AR + explosive is crazy, though not sure how ti compares to Particle Rifle plus those two factors. Hell, the one major weakness of the Harrier is its low clip and low reserve... which AR minimises.

Yes.  I forgot to specifically mention Incendiary Explosive Burst, which is a big factor, and why I personally think it is a bigger leap for Soldier than Infiltrator (as a response to the other post above).

[swk3000]

The Sentinel may be able to stack massive Damage Resist and carry all weapons, but that doesn't make them a Soldier. The Sentinal is designed as a Caster class, and the bonuses provided by Offensive Mastery support this. The Soldier, on the other hand, gets bonuses from their passive that the Sentinel will never have access to, from increased weapon damage to skills that make their ammo powers more effective. The Biotic Bomber build isn't a Soldier, no matter how you look at it; it's a sub-optimal Sentinel who is extremely hard to kill.

Is the Sentinel a Tank? Yes. Is it a better Soldier? Hardly.

[Binary_Helix 1]

JaegerBane wrote...

It should be self-evident that it was weapons training, and no game in the entire series restricted Assault Rifles to just the Soldier. The soldier's weapons bonus was the fact that it could carry the *majority* of weapons, not that it could carry assault rifles... as frankly, that wouldn't really be much of a bonus. The only Assault Rifles worth using in ME2 were available to all classes, anyway.

You seem to regard everything about the soldier as "silly". Adept was the easy mode of ME1. Just lift and singulairity everything including most bosses. It was so OP that they had to introduce biotic immune enemy defenses in ME2 for balance.

Hardly, I just think there are tanks, and there was the ME1 soldier. Do you actually think being so tough that melee'ing a thresher maw was an easy option to be a sensible state of affairs? Not that I thought tanking all the time made for interesting gameplay, just that there was a point when you had to stand back and question whether it made sense in game.

No game restricted biotics to adepts either but that doesn't mean anything. It's just for gameplay purposes. Weapon classes gained the most out of bonus powers like singularity or slam where as casters gained a lot from the weapon training bonuses.

Oh and soldier wasn't the only class that got immunity in ME1. Infiltrators had it also along with tech powers but soldiers could spam immunity more often. Given ME1's strange mix of rpg and shooter mechanics a pure weapons class would be at a disadvantage without immunity. In the sequel immunity became ME2 tech armor and was reworked around the sentinel.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 25 août 2012 - 06:23 .

[JaegerBane]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...
No game restricted biotics to adepts either but that doesn't mean anything. It's just for gameplay purposes. Weapon classes gained the most out of bonus powers like singularity or slam where as casters gained a lot from the weapon training bonuses.

I don't understand what your point is. I was pointing out that arguing the ability to use assault rifles is in no way something that was some massive plus in the soldier's favour, both in terms of actual performance (i.e. they weren't *that* good - the best full-auto AR in ME2 was a DLC SMG...) and in terms of actual accessibility (i.e. getting an AR in both the first games was easy).

In any case, your final point above doesn't work - the ME1 pistol was waaaay better than any AR, no caster in the game gained anything by taking ARs.

Oh and soldier wasn't the only class that got immunity in ME1. Infiltrators had it also along with tech powers but soldiers could spam immunity more often. Given ME1's strange mix of rpg and shooter mechanics a pure weapons class would be at a disadvantage without immunity.

I was more drawing attention to the fact that Immunity was *too* effective. I didn't have an issue with the concept, I had an issue that judicious use of it basically meant Shepard could withstand more damage than a Thresher maw.

And of course, the soldier could refresh it twice as fast than the infiltrator.

[Binary_Helix 1]

Assault rifles weren't the best at anything but they did a little bit of everything. That was their appeal. Most combat occurs at mid range and that's where AR's did well. Whenever I played other classes I missed using ARs. ARs were so popular they made an SMG emulate assault rifle features for player convenience (through paid DLC). What more proof is needed?

As for ME1 pistols they were good under marksman outside of it they weren't great. Casters didn't have adrenaline burst to reset cooldowns so they needed a backup weapon more than combat classes. The adept with AR training was very popular.

Immunity was also used by enemies too (bosses and Krogan)  so it's not like the player had a massive advantage over them.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 25 août 2012 - 08:36 .