104 réponses à ce sujet

[rumination888]

Not sure why people are bringing up MP class balance in a thread about SP classes. Its senseless to make a definitive statement about SP classes if you don't understand the mechanics of class mastery and the watered down squad  ammo.

Modifié par rumination888, 26 août 2012 - 01:51 .

[Athenau]

Nothing in SP can touch the dps of a soldier with maxed out weapon damage, power damage, and inferno ammo with the punisher.

That's a pretty good niche.

[JaegerBane]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

Assault rifles weren't the best at anything but they did a little bit of everything. That was their appeal. Most combat occurs at mid range and that's where AR's did well. Whenever I played other classes I missed using ARs. ARs were so popular they made an SMG emulate assault rifle features for player convenience (through paid DLC). What more proof is needed?

The Locust didn't 'emulate' an AR, it actually completely outperformed it.

So to answer your question, the 'proof' needed would be an indication that there was a reason to take a full-auto AR rather than the Locust.

I think the problem with your stance is that you're confusing the concept with the way things actually worked. You're saying ARs 'did a bit of everything', which isn't supported by the data - at least in so far as the basic ARs. Obviously stuff like Mattocks and Vindicators were good basic weapons, but the Vindicator had ammo issues and the Mattock was unbalanced.

As for ME1 pistols they were good under marksman outside of it they weren't great. Casters didn't have adrenaline burst to reset cooldowns so they needed a backup weapon more than combat classes. The adept with AR training was very popular.

Mainly because it was easy to use. It was ridiculously easy to keep Marksman up for the majority of the playthrough.

Besides, the strongest caster *did* have Adrenaline Rush.

Immunity was also used by enemies too (bosses and Krogan)  so it's not like the player had a massive advantage over them.

Which was *easily* counteracted by Warp. Something enemies never did to Shepard.

[Group Theory]

Started using this build yesterday, and it's a lot of fun. I can crazily run around during firefights and Claymore everyone's face without getting killed in about 2 second. Using Liara's stasis is also a huge help, and using her for biotic combos. I took the reset cooldown talent on throw, which I originally thought was uterlly useless compared to 50% damage. But it helps when your cooldown is 17 seconds.

Grenades don't instagib me anymore either! In fact, they don't even take off all my shields...

I'm doing this without the firefight pack. The solier clearly has better weapon DPS than a tank Sentinel, without a doubt. But I'm finding the latter much easier on Insanity.

Modifié par Group Theory, 26 août 2012 - 12:02 .

[swk3000]

JaegerBane wrote...
I think the problem with your stance is that you're confusing the concept with the way things actually worked.

I'm stealing this statement, but my post in general is directed to the OP.

To me, the problem is that bad balancing led to the Soldier being extremely tough to kill. Between Immunity cutting all incoming damage to one-fifth of it's initial value, and Adrenaline Rush dropping enemy DPS by half or more, the Soldier has always been tough to kill. The thing is, that's not how it's supposed to be. The Soldier has the best weapons training, making them much more deadly with weapons than any other class who tries to use the same weapon. In ME3, that's exactly what they are. Put a weapon in their hands, and they'll out-damage any other class. After all, they get all of the following:

+25% Weapon Damage from passive
+20% Headshot Damage from passive
+25% Headshot Damage from ammo power
+42% Weapon Damage when using Incendiary Ammo backed by passive boost
+75% Weapon Damage under Adrenaline Rush

And all of that is just based on what they have by default; it doesn't take into account all the other sources of weapon damage that any class has access to!

In comparison, the Sentinel gets +5% Weapon Damage from their passive. That's it. Oh, some of their powers increase damage to affected targets for a duration, but we're talking about the Tank Sentinel here, so their horrendously long cooldowns render those sources too unreliable to take into account..

As I said: the Sentinel is not a Soldier, and never will be. Being able to use all weapons doesn't make you a Soldier. After all, being able to push a button doesn't make you an MIT graduate.

Modifié par swk3000, 26 août 2012 - 12:04 .

[JaegerBane]

swk3000 wrote...
To me, the problem is that bad balancing led to the Soldier being extremely tough to kill. Between Immunity cutting all incoming damage to one-fifth of it's initial value, and Adrenaline Rush dropping enemy DPS by half or more, the Soldier has always been tough to kill. The thing is, that's not how it's supposed to be.

You stole one of mine, so I steal one of yours, as these are my thoughts exactly

[swk3000]

swk3000 wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
I think the problem with your stance is that you're confusing the concept with the way things actually worked.

I'm stealing this statement, but my post in general is directed to the OP.

To me, the problem is that bad balancing led to the Soldier being extremely tough to kill. Between Immunity cutting all incoming damage to one-fifth of it's initial value, and Adrenaline Rush dropping enemy DPS by half or more, the Soldier has always been tough to kill. The thing is, that's not how it's supposed to be. The Soldier has the best weapons training, making them much more deadly with weapons than any other class who tries to use the same weapon. In ME3, that's exactly what they are. Put a weapon in their hands, and they'll out-damage any other class. After all, they get all of the following:

+25% Weapon Damage from passive
+20% Headshot Damage from passive
+25% Headshot Damage from ammo power
+42% Weapon Damage when using Incendiary Ammo backed by passive boost
+75% Weapon Damage under Adrenaline Rush

And all of that is just based on what they have by default; it doesn't take into account all the other sources of weapon damage that any class has access to!

In comparison, the Sentinel gets +5% Weapon Damage from their passive. That's it. Oh, some of their powers increase damage to affected targets for a duration, but we're talking about the Tank Sentinel here, so their horrendously long cooldowns render those sources too unreliable to take into account..

As I said: the Sentinel is not a Soldier, and never will be. Being able to use all weapons doesn't make you a Soldier. After all, being able to push a button doesn't make you an MIT graduate.

I need to make a correction here. When I made the above post, I was using information from the Mass Effect wiki, as I was in the middle of a non-Soldier playthrough getting bonus powers unlocked. The information there indicated that Incendiary Ammo gave a boost to weapon damage. Not weapon damage vs health and armor; just weapon damage. I've fired up a new Soldier in preparation for Leviathan, and checking Incendiary Ammo in-game shows that this isn't the case. I apologize for the mistake.

[zeypher]

Also for inccendiary ammo you want explosive burst option. With fortification and combat prowess you can get it to 170 dmg explosions in a radius of 2.5 metres.

[BlessedSoldier]

zeypher wrote...

Also for inccendiary ammo you want explosive burst option. With fortification and combat prowess you can get it to 170 dmg explosions in a radius of 2.5 metres.

This is with a Prothean Particle Rifle is literally the only saving grace for the Soldier since Prothaen Particle Rifle isnt affected by Marksman's ROF increase. If it did then again Infiltrator would blow the Soldier right out of the water in terms of weapon damage.

Also Im quite sure TC increases the damage of even ammo powers so those explosive rounds would be back up to Soldier level when using James's Squad ammunition.  And of course ive never actually tested the DPS between the PPR with explosive round soldier compared to a revenant Marksman Infiltrator with Cryo or Squad Explosive.

[Binary_Helix 1]

JaegerBane wrote...

The Locust didn't 'emulate' an AR, it actually completely outperformed it.

So to answer your question, the 'proof' needed would be an indication that there was a reason to take a full-auto AR rather than the Locust.

As for ME1 pistols they were good under marksman outside of it they weren't great. Casters didn't have adrenaline burst to reset cooldowns so they needed a backup weapon more than combat classes. The adept with AR training was very popular.

Mainly because it was easy to use. It was ridiculously easy to keep Marksman up for the majority of the playthrough.

Besides, the strongest caster *did* have Adrenaline Rush.

Immunity was also used by enemies too (bosses and Krogan)  so it's not like the player had a massive advantage over them.

Which was *easily* counteracted by Warp. Something enemies never did to Shepard.

DLC weapons by nature are very powerful that's how they sell. Locust made non-soldiers enjoyable for me and enabled players more options on the Collector Ship since they already had an SMG that was basically an AR. That was it's role.

Only two out of six classes had adrenaline burst. Vangaurd was one of them but he wasn't a caster more like a biotic soldier. 

Oddly enough husks could completely bypass immunity with their explosion attack and kill you instantly in one or two hits.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 27 août 2012 - 01:31 .

[Binary_Helix 1]

swk3000 wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
I think the problem with your stance is that you're confusing the concept with the way things actually worked.

I'm stealing this statement, but my post in general is directed to the OP.

To me, the problem is that bad balancing led to the Soldier being extremely tough to kill. Between Immunity cutting all incoming damage to one-fifth of it's initial value, and Adrenaline Rush dropping enemy DPS by half or more, the Soldier has always been tough to kill. The thing is, that's not how it's supposed to be. The Soldier has the best weapons training, making them much more deadly with weapons than any other class who tries to use the same weapon. In ME3, that's exactly what they are. Put a weapon in their hands, and they'll out-damage any other class. After all, they get all of the following:

+25% Weapon Damage from passive
+20% Headshot Damage from passive
+25% Headshot Damage from ammo power
+42% Weapon Damage when using Incendiary Ammo backed by passive boost
+75% Weapon Damage under Adrenaline Rush

And all of that is just based on what they have by default; it doesn't take into account all the other sources of weapon damage that any class has access to!

In comparison, the Sentinel gets +5% Weapon Damage from their passive. That's it. Oh, some of their powers increase damage to affected targets for a duration, but we're talking about the Tank Sentinel here, so their horrendously long cooldowns render those sources too unreliable to take into account..

As I said: the Sentinel is not a Soldier, and never will be. Being able to use all weapons doesn't make you a Soldier. After all, being able to push a button doesn't make you an MIT graduate.

The problem isn't functionality the problem is why bother? Nearly everything the soldier can do can be matched or surpassed by others now including weapon DPS. Ammo powers aren't unique to soldier, he doesn't get more mod slots than anyone else, he's not immune to weight restrictions, and most of the guns are lackluster to begin with so this whole "weapon master" claim is dubious and inconsequential. But yes to those who wanted to see the soldier massively nerfed and unfun congratulations.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 26 août 2012 - 07:02 .

[Athenau]

This is with a Prothean Particle Rifle is literally the only saving grace for the Soldier since Prothaen Particle Rifle isnt affected by Marksman's ROF increase. If it did then again Infiltrator would blow the Soldier right out of the water in terms of weapon damage.

The soldier is superior with any high dps, high capacity automatic weapon. Marksman suffers from diminishing returns since the increased ROF is counterbalanced by having to reload more often. Meanwhile adrenaline rush allows you to reload instantly, meaning that for several high capacity weapons you never have to reload, ever.

Also Im quite sure TC increases the damage of even ammo powers so those explosive rounds would be back up to Soldier level when using James's Squad ammunition. And of course ive never actually tested the DPS between the PPR with explosive round soldier compared to a revenant Marksman Infiltrator with Cryo or Squad Explosive.

Nope. TC doesn't affect ammo powers. The only thing that affects ammo powers are passive power damage boosts from skills and fortification's power damage bonus.

Modifié par Athenau, 26 août 2012 - 07:17 .

[Abraham_uk]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

Tech armor stacks with defense matrix or fortification for massive DR. With the new DLC weapons you don't even need ammo powers for your guns to be strong now just ignore weight, carry a full load, and you've got a gun for every situation. Win.

Why bother with the standard soldier anymore? He was already the weakest class and now he's been replaced entirely, imo.

You must remember that the sentinel is all about biotic and tech powers.
Kronner's Biotic Bomber and Walking Armoury was merely showing a possible build that works well on insanity.

But just because a build works well, doesn't make it optimal.
Optimal meaning using to full potential.

Sentinels are versatile casters who can take more hits, and throw grenades. They do have some buffs to weapon damage, but that is just for an added extra.

Fell free to play the sentinel Kronner style. It works well. You'll beat insanity without too much difficulty.
But you're missing out on some fantastic powers.

Warp
Overload
Cryo blast

If you play Sentinel Kronner style you miss out on those powers.
You're carrying too many guns so your cooldowns are too slow.
The tech armour and (barrier/defense matrix/fortification) will further slow down your cooldowns.

With the sentinel you can have it all. Gun play, biotics and tech. Why have a build that restricts the sentinel to specialising in being a soldier, when a soldier can blitz storm levels with a higher damage per second?

I recommend that you focus on your powers, and bring guns for backup. That is how sentinel was best played in Mass Effect 1, 2 and still plays best in Mass Effect 3.

[BlessedSoldier]

Marksman Infiltrator gets a 90% weapon damage boost which can be held almost constantly which a very small half second delay between each time along with a 70% ROF boost and 50% accuracy boost which can be held indefinitely along with a 10% passive damage boost and 55% to 65% headshot damage boost depending on ammo type.

An infiltrator can hit just as hard as a Soldier with any weapon other then the PPR only an Infiltrator can fire more shots and with a higher hit ratio. Also the Soldier does need to "reload". PPR doesnt get the auto reload from AR which again is the only weapon Soldier performs better with again dropping your DPS.

Modifié par BlessedSoldier, 26 août 2012 - 07:43 .

[Binary_Helix 1]

Plus soldiers are too exposed when firing their weapons out of cover especially damage over time weapons. This was understood and properly compensated for in ME1 and ME2. Now the dilation effect of adrenalin rush has been largely nerfed while infiltrators remain totally invisible when out of cover. The invisble man is the better choice for gun play in ME3.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 26 août 2012 - 08:02 .

[swk3000]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...
Nearly everything the soldier can do can be matched or surpassed by others now including weapon DPS.

Care to offer more detail? Break down everything a Soldier does for me, then tell me how other classes do it better. Because I'm not that good with the numbers side of things, and I'd appreciate more detail.

[Abraham_uk]

BlessedSoldier wrote...

Marksman Infiltrator gets a 90% weapon damage boost which can be held almost constantly which a very small half second delay between each time along with a 70% ROF boost and 50% accuracy boost which can be held indefinitely along with a 10% passive damage boost and 55% to 65% headshot damage boost depending on ammo type.

An infiltrator can hit just as hard as a Soldier with any weapon other then the PPR only an Infiltrator can fire more shots and with a higher hit ratio. Also the Soldier does need to "reload". PPR doesnt get the auto reload from AR which again is the only weapon Soldier performs better with again dropping your DPS.

What does PPR stand for?

[swk3000]

Prothean Pulse Rifle

[Doriath]

BlessedSoldier wrote...

Marksman Infiltrator gets a 90% weapon damage boost which can be held almost constantly which a very small half second delay between each time along with a 70% ROF boost and 50% accuracy boost which can be held indefinitely along with a 10% passive damage boost and 55% to 65% headshot damage boost depending on ammo type.

Since we're throwing percentages out here...a soldier can get a 125% weapon damage boost held almost constantly, 25% passive weapon damage boost, and a 50-65% headshot damage boost. A soldier can also get a 40% increase in damage to all ammo powers. You also have to account for EB's burst damage would spike on the soldier's sustained DPS every second or less with a reasonably high RoF weapon.

Tactical cloak buffs all damage for 2 seconds after you cancel it, just in case anyone was wondering. The fastest cancel still results in absolute minimum 3 second cooldown. In terms of how many shots you can get damage boosted, its very close to adrenaline rush (lasts for roughly 7 sec, recharge time 8 sec). So I think that's more or less a wash. The main comparison should be the damage boost from TC vs AR, and the passives. Marksman levels the playing field a lot, but anyone that uses it probably knows the burst damage potential of EB (over an area), that needs to be factored in here. In any event, its an interesting thread.

Modifié par chrisnabal, 26 août 2012 - 09:56 .

[Abraham_uk]

chrisnabal wrote...

BlessedSoldier wrote...

Marksman Infiltrator gets a 90% weapon damage boost which can be held almost constantly which a very small half second delay between each time along with a 70% ROF boost and 50% accuracy boost which can be held indefinitely along with a 10% passive damage boost and 55% to 65% headshot damage boost depending on ammo type.

Since we're throwing percentages out here...a soldier can get a 125% weapon damage boost held almost constantly, 25% passive weapon damage boost, and a 50-65% headshot damage boost. A soldier can also get a 40% increase in damage to all ammo powers. You also have to account for EB's burst damage would spike on the soldier's sustained DPS every second or less with a reasonably high RoF weapon.

Tactical cloak buffs all damage for 2 seconds after you cancel it, just in case anyone was wondering. The fastest cancel still results in absolute minimum 3 second cooldown. In terms of how many shots you can get damage boosted, its very close to adrenaline rush (lasts for roughly 7 sec, recharge time 8 sec). So I think that's more or less a wash. The main comparison should be the damage boost from TC vs AR, and the passives. Marksman levels the playing field a lot, but anyone that uses it probably knows the burst damage potential of EB (over an area), that needs to be factored in here. In any event, its an interesting thread.

What does EB mean?

I am going to make a big thing about this.
I've tried googling this. There are hundreds of possible meanings for EB.


These accronymns are just plain annoying now. There is no possible way I'm supposed to know what those mean.

I can assume you mean TC means Tactical Cloak.
I can assume you mean AR means Adrenaline Rush. (That is a highly ambiguous one because it also means Assault Rifle)

As for EB I am trully at a loss. All I can find is Economical terms and scientific terms. Nothing Mass Effect related comes up on my Google searches.

Please explain yourselves.
I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about.
This is a forum. I want to know what you mean. I am actually making the effort to decipher what you're saying, but EB means absolutely nothing to me.

End of rant.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 26 août 2012 - 10:05 .

[SeeNoEvilHearNoEvil]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

I just don't see the purpose in the soldier class anymore. He doesn't excel in anything. He can't tank like he used to (as in ME1), he can't do the highest DPS anymore (like in ME2), he can't carry all the guns without penalty, he doesn't even have his signature class exclusive anymore the assault rifles. A lot of people (myself included) only play him out of class loyalty in ME3.

Where as the sentinel soldier actually plays more like a traditional soldier at least in the ME1 style. It just feels right to me.

The purpose in it's clearest state is called roleplaying. That is pretty much the fact over 90% of the whiners and stat calculators don't understand. If a roleplayer wants to be a pure soldier, he doe not want to choose a sentinel!

Take a hobbit warrior in D&D, or whatever fantasy system. There is absolutely NO reasoning to that if you compare the plain stats with any other available race... still people WANT to play as one. I personally am glad it is that way.

If you worried less about your character and weapon stats you could actually develop some fun playing the game.

Modifié par SeeNoEvilHearNoEvil, 26 août 2012 - 10:07 .

[SeanBahamut]

Abraham_uk wrote...

As for EB I am trully at a loss. All I can find is Economical terms and scientific terms. Nothing Mass Effect related comes up on my Google searches.

I also get annoyed at so many acronyms, but I think EB is explosive Burst (see the second post in this thread)

[Abraham_uk]

SeanBahamut wrote...

Abraham_uk wrote...

As for EB I am trully at a loss. All I can find is Economical terms and scientific terms. Nothing Mass Effect related comes up on my Google searches.

I also get annoyed at so many acronyms, but I think EB is explosive Burst (see the second post in this thread)

Thanks for clearing that up. Now I can re-read that post properly.

[Doriath]

SeeNoEvilHearNoEvil wrote...

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

I just don't see the purpose in the soldier class anymore. He doesn't excel in anything. He can't tank like he used to (as in ME1), he can't do the highest DPS anymore (like in ME2), he can't carry all the guns without penalty, he doesn't even have his signature class exclusive anymore the assault rifles. A lot of people (myself included) only play him out of class loyalty in ME3.

Where as the sentinel soldier actually plays more like a traditional soldier at least in the ME1 style. It just feels right to me.

The purpose in it's clearest state is called roleplaying. That is pretty much the fact over 90% of the whiners and stat calculators don't understand. If a roleplayer wants to be a pure soldier, he doe not want to choose a sentinel!

Take a hobbit warrior in D&D, or whatever fantasy system. There is absolutely NO reasoning to that if you compare the plain stats with any other available race... still people WANT to play as one. I personally am glad it is that way.

If you worried less about your character and weapon stats you could actually develop some fun playing the game.

Its a nice sentiment, but please understand that nothing you said there is going to change anyone's mind regarding this topic. I think we all understand that ME3 is an rpg and people can have fun playing whatever class they want but...this is the strategy and builds section, so expect many many threads like this. When they merged the ME2 counterpart of this section with another one many people petitioned to have it freed, so for a lot of people here, this is exactly what interests them.

I enjoy threads like this because for these games, the informational value here is better than anywhere else on net and most of the people that respond do know what they are talking about. When its civil, and for the most part it is, there is a lot to gain here if it interests you.

And yes, EB = explosive burst.

Modifié par chrisnabal, 26 août 2012 - 10:40 .

[Abraham_uk]

You really need to think of what niche each class covers.

Adept: Crowd control, biotic explosions and has a pretty cool grenade..
Vanguard: Short ranged combat, charge/nova combo and limited crowd control
Engineer: Crowd control, distraction, removal of barriers, shields and armour and weapon overheating. Also tech bursts, incendiary and cryo explosions.
Infiltrator: Limited crowd control, sniping and stealth. Has some grenades.
Soldier: Guns. Can perform tech bursts, incendiary and cryo explosions. Also has a grenade. But it's all about the guns. No class does guns better than soldiers. None.
Sentinel: Crowd control through both biotic and tech powers. Grenades, tech bursts, biotic explosions and cryo explosions. In addition, sentinels have tech armour that adds extra durability.


Sentinels are inferior at guns compared to soldiers.
They cannot topple infiltrators or vanguards.
They are slightly better than adepts and engineers due to passive weapon buffs.

Give the sentinel (defense matrix, barrier or fortification) and then your sentinel will be the best tank in the game.


Let's put it this way.
Think of the sentinel as the warrior with a sword and shield.
Think of the soldier as a warrior with a two handed sword.

Which does more damage? Sword and shield or two handed sword?
Which is better defended? Sword and shield or two handed sword?

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 26 août 2012 - 10:58 .