The Angry One wrote...
inb4 "But teh Catalyst is flawed AI! I headcanoned that it's shackled to feel better about working with it and will now post this as fact!!!"
Modifié par saracen16, 23 août 2012 - 02:32 .
LiarasShield wrote...
Also compromising with the enemy or doing what the enemy tells you to do really does destroy any meaning of achievement
Modifié par saracen16, 23 août 2012 - 02:36 .
saracen16 wrote...
Ieldra2 wrote...
That's certainly true. Nonetheless, making the leader of the antagonists also be the one who explains your final choice to you wasn't the best idea Bioware's writers ever had. It requires an immense amount of emotional detachment to get comfortable with the idea that the Catalyst, as an AI, doesn't play to win but plays to complete an objective, in a completely neutral and amoral way, and as such isn't your standard antagonist, and that it can't be measured by human standards of morality because it isn't equipped to see those as valid.Eterna5 wrote...
I like the Catalyst. People don't like the Catalyst because he presents 3 (4) options that require players Shepards to get their hands dirty with no get out of jail free card that they're spoon fed at every major decision.
That's why you see so much "My Shepard had to give up everything he/she believed in and it's thematically revolting! QQ"
I like the final choice and its outcomes, but the Catalyst remains a problem, not just because it explains our final choice, but also because it comes across as a pseudo-divinity with primary agency in the ending, starting with levitating Shepard up to its platform. The symbolism is galling to say the least.
The closest analogy I can get to towards the end is that the Illusive Man was right: the universe is not as black and white as we think because there's plenty of room for different shades of grey. It's more like Cerberus is the Emperor Palpatine and the Reapers are the Darth Vader, their moral ambiguities or certainties made clear at the very end. This also hearkens to Deus Ex Invisible War, where you fight one faction most of the game only to be able to side with it at the very end (the Templars, for those who need a memory check).
It's refreshing to have another not-so-clear-cut antagonist at the end. The whole good vs. evil dichotomy was getting tiresome.
LiarasShield wrote...
Yeah and having a antagonist that destroys ur undoes the point of the previous two games in the series is not very pleasing to me
I mean I didn't unite the entire galaxy build some unknown super weapon only for the leader of the reapers to be on there and then tell me what my choices are
Not only is it very twisted that this supposed being which is the reaper collective he wasn't invovled anywhere in the previous two games and his idea of the created would rebel against they're creators was not expanded upon or make sense otherwise the reapers he controls and even created yes in extended the catalyst says that he turned his creators into the first reaper.
Modifié par saracen16, 23 août 2012 - 02:49 .
The Reapers aren't, but the people turned into paste to make them are.Baronesa wrote...
inb4 the reapers are poor victims
Conniving_Eagle wrote...
Degrading Shepard and their character, then forcing them to collaborate with the antagonist.
saracen16 wrote...
LiarasShield wrote...
Yeah and having a antagonist that destroys ur undoes the point of the previous two games in the series is not very pleasing to me
Emotions. Always with the emotions. I don't see anything that the Catalyst has undone: I united the krogan and cured their genophage, I brought peace to the quarians and the geth, and I got Conrad hooked up with a girl. And now I am about to end the cycle, the very thing I was working for during the last few games. I don't see anything that the Catalyst could possibly undo. If anything, refusal of the Catalyst makes all your choices, all that you worked for, worth nothing.I mean I didn't unite the entire galaxy build some unknown super weapon only for the leader of the reapers to be on there and then tell me what my choices are
The Catalyst was changed by the Crucible, which created the new possibilities, NOT the other way around. I am telling him what my choices are, and he's expositioning them to me. That is all.Not only is it very twisted that this supposed being which is the reaper collective he wasn't invovled anywhere in the previous two games and his idea of the created would rebel against they're creators was not expanded upon or make sense otherwise the reapers he controls and even created yes in extended the catalyst says that he turned his creators into the first reaper.
You don't pay attention. You just cherrypick whatever suits your ****ed up fairytale about the "Starchild". The Catalyst turned them into Reapers because it was the solution to the problem of organics and synthetics fighting each other, the one that he didn't try. He didn't do it out of spite or out of some fundamental inequality he possessed with respect to his creators.
And as for his metaphor, it sums up every conflict in Mass Effect. The created (the geth, the krogans) will always rebel against their creators (the quarians, the salarians). The quarians created the geth. The salarians uplifted the krogan, and in essence they "created" them as they were. The same goes for the Presidium AI, Project Overlord, and the Metacons. His axiom stands, but his "solution" is a faulty one, a mistake that has repeated itself for countless cycles. That's why Shepard is there to fix it.
LiarasShield wrote...
Also another main reason why the catalyst is wrong because if the created will always rebel against their creators I should've never been able to unite the geth with quarians right but guess what I did lol
The catalyst is lore breaking for both the reapers and the idea that it believes in
AresKeith wrote...
LiarasShield wrote...
Also another main reason why the catalyst is wrong because if the created will always rebel against their creators I should've never been able to unite the geth with quarians right but guess what I did lol
The catalyst is lore breaking for both the reapers and the idea that it believes in
and the Geth never even wanted to fight the Quarians, they did it in self-defense because they didn't want to die, which is also what any Organic would do
saracen16 wrote...
Conniving_Eagle wrote...
Degrading Shepard and their character, then forcing them to collaborate with the antagonist.
If that's what it takes to stop the Reapers, then I would gladly do it.
Modifié par Conniving_Eagle, 23 août 2012 - 03:15 .
LiarasShield wrote...
The salarians didn't make the krogan and don't sink to insults or you will lose any credability you're trying establish
also the geth did not rebel against the quarians the quarians attacked the first and the geth only wanted to defend themselves that is the reason they fought back hell they even allowed their creators to flee and leave the planet
and the only othertimes the geth fight shepard is because they're under the reaper code and that we break the control from legions side mission and on the geth dreadnaught and destroying the virus within the geth network
If the created will rebel against their creator was going to be a main theme then the reapers should've been repeling against the catalyst but that isn't so they have been commiting mass genocide every 50 thousand years on schedule
as the catalyst wishes and yes he is problem because he isn't in the other games and because the reapers come off as powerful individuals with free will or a grand shcheme of their own
LiarasShield wrote...
Also another main reason why the catalyst is wrong because if the created will always rebel against their creators I should've never been able to unite the geth with quarians right but guess what I did lol
The catalyst is lore breaking for both the reapers and the idea that it believes in
LiarasShield wrote...
AresKeith wrote...
LiarasShield wrote...
Also another main reason why the catalyst is wrong because if the created will always rebel against their creators I should've never been able to unite the geth with quarians right but guess what I did lol
The catalyst is lore breaking for both the reapers and the idea that it believes in
and the Geth never even wanted to fight the Quarians, they did it in self-defense because they didn't want to die, which is also what any Organic would do
Exactly the catalyst is wrong about other synthetics and the reapers truely played a great role i the previous games as he did not he is out of place also
Since the catalyst resides in the citadel why didn't he open the citadel relay or the relay near our solar system to let the reapers come in for soverign wait for it because he never existed or was thought until me3 right?
Conniving_Eagle wrote...
It's funny, most of the stigma against the Geth is the result of Sovereign's influence.
saracen16 wrote...
LiarasShield wrote...
The salarians didn't make the krogan and don't sink to insults or you will lose any credability you're trying establish
That was a bad metaphor. I already acknowledged it, but loosely applied, it still fits.also the geth did not rebel against the quarians the quarians attacked the first and the geth only wanted to defend themselves that is the reason they fought back hell they even allowed their creators to flee and leave the planet
You're nitpicking and playing at semantics. The quarians were their masters, the geth their slaves, their "servants of the people". The quarians initiated martial law when the geth made their first attempts at communicating on a higher level than they usually do. The geth, by definition had to fight back: they rebelled. The same goes for the Metacons, Project Overlord, and the other instances.and the only othertimes the geth fight shepard is because they're under the reaper code and that we break the control from legions side mission and on the geth dreadnaught and destroying the virus within the geth network
Legion said that the reason the heretics worship the Reapers was an error in their file. There is no mention that they were under some Reaper code prior to the attack on the Geth Dreadnought.If the created will rebel against their creator was going to be a main theme then the reapers should've been repeling against the catalyst but that isn't so they have been commiting mass genocide every 50 thousand years on schedule
The Leviathan DLC is purported to have answers to these questions, but that is not a necessity. The Reapers are not purely synthetic or organic, nor is the Catalyst separate from the Reapers to be regarded as their creator. In fact, the Catalyst is the creator and the created. He is the collective intelligence of all Reapers.as the catalyst wishes and yes he is problem because he isn't in the other games and because the reapers come off as powerful individuals with free will or a grand shcheme of their own
You're grasping at straws. Just because we haven't met him yet doesn't make him a problem. The fact that we ever met him at all is a miracle: the Reapers are a mysterium tremendum of sorts, a cosmic horror separate from the world around us yet horrifying and different. To even uncover more of their mysteries would be nothing short of fortuitous.
Modifié par LiarasShield, 23 août 2012 - 03:21 .
Jamie9 wrote...
garf wrote...
Nope can't agree. Won't argue that they can write the book how they like. but I have the right to relegate the book right back the the used bookstore (or the paper recycling bin if I can't be arsed to make the trip downtown) and drop that author from my list of favourites.
and what we are talking about here is our rationale for doing the gaming industry equivalent of just that. Which any gaming industry 'artist' ignores at the risk of following the paradigm to the point of starving in a garret. (What would be the modern equivalent of a garret anyway?)
Of course you can choose to do that. I didn't suggest you couldn't.
That's the system designed to keep high quality products. The bad ones don't get bought and the good ones do (in theory).
The point being that when writing a story, you should be doing it because you have a story to tell, not because you want to make money (that's a nice bonus). Since you're not doing it for money, you're not going to change your story if you think it is good.
Presumably, Casey and Hudson think the ending is good.
Modifié par JShepppp, 23 août 2012 - 03:27 .
LiarasShield wrote...
AresKeith wrote...
LiarasShield wrote...
Also another main reason why the catalyst is wrong because if the created will always rebel against their creators I should've never been able to unite the geth with quarians right but guess what I did lol
The catalyst is lore breaking for both the reapers and the idea that it believes in
and the Geth never even wanted to fight the Quarians, they did it in self-defense because they didn't want to die, which is also what any Organic would do
Exactly the catalyst is wrong about other synthetics and the reapers truely played a great role i the previous games as he did not he is out of place also
Since the catalyst resides in the citadel why didn't he open the citadel relay or the relay near our solar system to let the reapers come in for soverign wait for it because he never existed or was thought until me3 right?
saracen16 wrote...
The Angry One wrote...
inb4 "But teh Catalyst is flawed AI! I headcanoned that it's shackled to feel better about working with it and will now post this as fact!!!"
So, instead of responding to my post in that other thread, you decide to come here and attempt to stab my back.
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