329 réponses à ce sujet

[saracen16]

The Angry One wrote...

saracen16 wrote...


You both have issues with arrogance and hypocrisy: you're putting words into our mouths and making up strawmen to claim your little "victories". PATHETIC. If you have something to say to us, say it to our faces instead of holding your noses up high.

I had thought for a moment you wanted to debate reasonably. My mistake.

Making glib remarks on the side is debating reasonably?

Who turns off the Crucible in refuse?
Hint: It's not Shepard.

Right. The Reapers destroyed it. And who built the Crucible and fired it?

[Xilizhra]

Cybernetic augmentation is a good idea on an individual level. I would go for such a thing myself.
The problem is in forcing it upon everyone.

And ethically problematic it may be. But the alternatives are to choose death for the entire galaxy, to choose death for only billions of its lifeforms, or... well, Control's potential problems are all in the future rather than immediate, and I could take it as a sort of intermediary phase.
Also, let it be known that I only completed the game as Destroy so far, interpreting it via IT. As of now, I'm arguing assuming that IT is not the case, so we're all on the same page.

The difference is the Architect, while ruthless, wanted a chance to change the Darkspawn. Not to change us.
If the Architect stated that the only way to co-exist with the Darkspawn was to make everybody part Darkspawn would you agree?

Yes. The duty of a Grey Warden is to do anything to stop the Blight, and that would indeed stop it forever. Also, the darkspawn taint is alien and unnerving to demons; this'd give us, especially mages, better protection against them.

[Baronesa]

saracen16 wrote...

Rules I made up? LOL! Do you even read the Codices? The Catalyst states that we are ready for it, and my interpretation was based within the lore of the universe: many examples of people interfacing with technology to improve their lives such as biotic amps, haptic interface implants, and prostheses. "It is not something that can be forced", but it wasn't forced at all in any of these situations. As for the primitive societies, they have more to gain than to lose.

You mean like in the previous cycle... ? What did the Reapers do to that peaceful race that integrated with AI in  peace? oh yes... they turned them into monsters and attacked the Protheans.

[The Angry One]

saracen16 wrote...

Stop acting like a snob and pretending that I have to be lectured. "The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen. If there is to be a new solution, you must act. The paths are open, but you have to choose." can be interpreted to be a shackle. If the Catalyst wanted to implement the solutions, it would have.

Or it can be interpreted that it's ambivalent. Here's the key word. Interpretation. There is nothing solid to indicate that the Catalyst is shackled. It's later speech indicate that it isn't.

More strawmen, but I'll bite.

Rules I made up? LOL! Do you even read the Codices?

(somehow the forum ate my response here)

Yes, rules you made up. You're making assumptions to justify the Catalyst's arbitrary statements.

The Catalyst states that we are ready for it, and my interpretation was based within the lore of the universe: many examples of people interfacing with technology to improve their lives such as biotic amps, haptic interface implants, and prostheses. "It is not something that can be forced", but it wasn't forced at all in any of these situations. As for the primitive societies, they have more to gain than to lose.

The primitive societies condradict EVERYTHING you just said. They are not interfaced with technology. They are not "ready".

Also, why do you assume this cycle is unique with regards to cybernetic augmentation when the last cycle had the Zha'til? When cycles before ours were more advanced?

Modifié par The Angry One, 23 août 2012 - 04:14 .

[Chaotic-Fusion]

The prime example of someone interfacing with technology to an extreme level is David. And guess what he was? Not ready.

[LiarasShield]

Still you side with the one who leads the reapers despite the reapers who have used cunning and indoctrination to get what they want they've caused the destruction of the galaxy and have destroyed most of earth how you can even talk with the catalyst yet pick the choices he offers you or gives you since he has always resided in the citadel and how he was always a key component to get the crucible  to work in the first place


Like the prothean beacon told us on thessia

Modifié par LiarasShield, 23 août 2012 - 04:08 .

[saracen16]

LiarasShield wrote...

yet from a stand point the catalyst is still wrong because if synthetics would've destroyed all organics they would've done so already but that wasn't the case in the prothean cycle just like it isn't the case in ours unless you coinsider the half organic half synthetic reaper hybrids is what will cause the destruction of all organics

You're misrepresenting the Catalyst's argument and making it too concrete. The Catalyst's axiom would be that both synthetics and organics would inevitably come into conflict, not necessarily wipe each other out. The 50,000-year mark was chosen most likely because that is the point when organics and synthetics reach a point of technological achievement that would allow them to eliminate each other. The Catalyst sees this as a problem and wants to stop it. It doesn't matter what happens, but rather what could happen, hence inevitability.

It still doesn't make sense that you side with the thing that has used the reapers to destroy the galaxy several times over and has caused the destruction of everything you love lol

By firing the Crucible, I end all of that. If it needs me to "cooperate" with the leader of the Reapers, then I would do it. I don't just pout my face and say **** you, because clearly it wouldn't solve anything. But I'm not siding with the Reapers. If I sided with them, I would let him continue the cycle. I would refuse the Crucible. The Crucible allows me to win on my terms, not theirs.

[The Angry One]

Xilizhra wrote...

And ethically problematic it may be. But the alternatives are to choose death for the entire galaxy, to choose death for only billions of its lifeforms, or... well, Control's potential problems are all in the future rather than immediate, and I could take it as a sort of intermediary phase.
Also, let it be known that I only completed the game as Destroy so far, interpreting it via IT. As of now, I'm arguing assuming that IT is not the case, so we're all on the same page.

The thing is refuse is not choosing death, it's choosing to fight.

Yes. The duty of a Grey Warden is to do anything to stop the Blight, and that would indeed stop it forever. Also, the darkspawn taint is alien and unnerving to demons; this'd give us, especially mages, better protection against them.

No, you're doing the same thing as the Catalyst with synthesis, you're assuming making everybody the same will stop all conflict.
I could make the same argument for the entire world submitting to the Qun. There would be perfect order which would lead to an end to the Blight through an organised campaign, and the dangers of demons would be gone because all mages would be bound as Saarebas.

[AresKeith]

The Angry One wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Stop acting like a snob and pretending that I have to be lectured. "The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen. If there is to be a new solution, you must act. The paths are open, but you have to choose." can be interpreted to be a shackle. If the Catalyst wanted to implement the solutions, it would have.

Or it can be interpreted that it's ambivalent. Here's the key word. Interpretation. There is nothing solid to indicate that the Catalyst is shackled. It's later speech indicate that it isn't.

More strawmen, but I'll bite.

Rules I made up? LOL! Do you even read the Codices?

The Catalyst states that we are ready for it, and my interpretation was based within the lore of the universe: many examples of people interfacing with technology to improve their lives such as biotic amps, haptic interface implants, and prostheses. "It is not something that can be forced", but it wasn't forced at all in any of these situations. As for the primitive societies, they have more to gain than to lose.

The primitive societies condradict EVERYTHING you just said. They are not interfaced with technology. They are not "ready".

Also, why do you assume this cycle is unique with regards to cybernetic augmentation when the last cycle had the Zha'til? When cycles before ours were more advanced?

The Reapers turned them against the Protheans too and didn't the Reapers start the Rachni Wars also because they indoctrinated them

Modifié par AresKeith, 23 août 2012 - 04:11 .

[LiarasShield]

saracen16 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

yet from a stand point the catalyst is still wrong because if synthetics would've destroyed all organics they would've done so already but that wasn't the case in the prothean cycle just like it isn't the case in ours unless you coinsider the half organic half synthetic reaper hybrids is what will cause the destruction of all organics

You're misrepresenting the Catalyst's argument and making it too concrete. The Catalyst's axiom would be that both synthetics and organics would inevitably come into conflict, not necessarily wipe each other out. The 50,000-year mark was chosen most likely because that is the point when organics and synthetics reach a point of technological achievement that would allow them to eliminate each other. The Catalyst sees this as a problem and wants to stop it. It doesn't matter what happens, but rather what could happen, hence inevitability.

It still doesn't make sense that you side with the thing that has used the reapers to destroy the galaxy several times over and has caused the destruction of everything you love lol

By firing the Crucible, I end all of that. If it needs me to "cooperate" with the leader of the Reapers, then I would do it. I don't just pout my face and say **** you, because clearly it wouldn't solve anything. But I'm not siding with the Reapers. If I sided with them, I would let him continue the cycle. I would refuse the Crucible. The Crucible allows me to win on my terms, not theirs.

But you may be potentially doing more harm then good the reapers have used indoctrination and cunning to trap or beat enemies or take over powerful leaders

You're making a compromise with the one who leads the reapers for all you know after shepard got hit with harbingers beam or passed out near the elevator the catalyst could already be suggesting your mind or what you will see from the choices it offers you

Also for harbinger and the others to just let you wallace to the crucible and citadel their has to be more then just that

[saracen16]

The Angry One wrote...

Or it can be interpreted that it's ambivalent. Here's the key word. Interpretation. There is nothing solid to indicate that the Catalyst is shackled. It's later speech indicate that it isn't.

Because by refusing the Crucible, the cycle continues. There is no other alternative. Exactly what you're doing right now. Interpretation. It can only continue the cycle, but with Shepard, it can implement a new solution.

The primitive societies condradict EVERYTHING you just said. They are not interfaced with technology. They are not "ready".

But by and large, the advanced societies are ready for this, and many of the primitive and supra-primitive societies - such as the Raloi - have become technically adept. They are ready for understanding and interfacing with technology.

Also, why do you assume this cycle is unique with regards to cybernetic augmentation when the last cycle had the Zha'til? When cycles before ours were more advanced?

The Zha'til, the "geth" of the previous cycle, were not in control over themselves. They were enslaved by the Zha and then by the Reapers. The modern cycle contains individuals who are both implanted with technology that I mentioned AND are in control over themselves, and are therefore ready to interface with technology.

Modifié par saracen16, 23 août 2012 - 04:15 .

[LiarasShield]

saracen16 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Or it can be interpreted that it's ambivalent. Here's the key word. Interpretation. There is nothing solid to indicate that the Catalyst is shackled. It's later speech indicate that it isn't.

Because by refusing the Crucible, the cycle continues. There is no other alternative. Exactly what you're doing right now.

The primitive societies condradict EVERYTHING you just said. They are not interfaced with technology. They are not "ready".

But by and large, the advanced societies are ready for this, and many of the primitive and supra-primitive societies - such as the Raloi - have become technically adept. They are ready for understanding and interfacing with technology.

Also, why do you assume this cycle is unique with regards to cybernetic augmentation when the last cycle had the Zha'til? When cycles before ours were more advanced?

The Zha'til, the "geth" of the previous cycle, were not in control over themselves. They were enslaved by the Zha and then by the Reapers. The modern cycle contains individuals who are both implanted with technology that I mentioned AND are in control over themselves, and are therefore ready to interface with technology.

The enemy is not to be trusted haven't you learned that by now or has the illusive mans betrayal and his personal assasssin kai leng have not made it seep in yet?

[Twinzam.V]

saracen16 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Or it can be interpreted that it's ambivalent. Here's the key word. Interpretation. There is nothing solid to indicate that the Catalyst is shackled. It's later speech indicate that it isn't.

Because by refusing the Crucible, the cycle continues. There is no other alternative. Exactly what you're doing right now. Interpretation. It can only continue the cycle, but with Shepard, it can implement a new solution.

The primitive societies condradict EVERYTHING you just said. They are not interfaced with technology. They are not "ready".

But by and large, the advanced societies are ready for this, and many of the primitive and supra-primitive societies - such as the Raloi - have become technically adept. They are ready for understanding and interfacing with technology.

Also, why do you assume this cycle is unique with regards to cybernetic augmentation when the last cycle had the Zha'til? When cycles before ours were more advanced?

The Zha'til, the "geth" of the previous cycle, were not in control over themselves. They were enslaved by the Zha and then by the Reapers. The modern cycle contains individuals who are both implanted with technology that I mentioned AND are in control over themselves, and are therefore ready to interface with technology.

You're forgetting the human mind. How can you be so sure that "everyone" is ready. If that was true there would be no Cerberus and the galaxy would be an utopia before that.

Modifié par Twinzam.V, 23 août 2012 - 04:17 .

[The Angry One]

saracen16 wrote...

Because by refusing the Crucible, the cycle continues. There is no other alternative. Exactly what you're doing right now.

How do you know that? There is always hope. Better than submitting to the demands of the enemy.

But by and large, the advanced societies are ready for this, and many of the primitive and supra-primitive societies - such as the Raloi - have become technically adept. They are ready for understanding and interfacing with technology.

Uhuh. What about the Yahg, who have only just started launching rockets? What about the medieval and bronze age societies?
How does cybernetic augmentation being prevalent justify it's imposition on those who want nothing to do with it anyway?

The Zha'til, the "geth" of the previous cycle, were not in control over themselves. They were enslaved by the Zha and then by the Reapers. The modern cycle contains individuals who are both implanted with technology that I mentioned AND are in control over themselves, and are therefore ready to interface with technology.

The Zha'til were enslaved by the Reapers, who enslaved the Zha. Before then, they were synthesis. They were cyborgs.
Yet again, it is a huge assumption to say that in billions of years, this cycle is the only one with cybernetic augmentation.

[Xilizhra]

The thing is refuse is not choosing death, it's choosing to fight.

I disagree. Substantially. A conventional victory was never on the cards, anytime in the game. No one considered it possible, and none of the fleets entered battle believing that they'd win. The point of everything you did throughout the game was to build up a delaying action to use the Crucible. To completely throw away the one thing that had been indispensable throughout the entire military campaign reeks of such self-righteous arrogance that I can barely believe it exists. "Fighting" in the way you describe was never an option at all.

No, you're doing the same thing as the Catalyst with synthesis, you're assuming making everybody the same will stop all conflict.
I could make the same argument for the entire world submitting to the Qun. There would be perfect order which would lead to an end to the Blight through an organised campaign, and the dangers of demons would be gone because all mages would be bound as Saarebas.

You could. And I admit that Synthesis isn't very well presented in-game at all, so I can understand why the consequences would seem worse than they really turn out to be, to some Shepards.

[Ledgend1221]

The main reason no one likes him is because he took the retarded child form.

[saracen16]

LiarasShield wrote...

The enemy is not to be trusted haven't you learned that by now or has the illusive mans betrayal and his personal assasssin kai leng have not made it seep in yet?

You're arguing from emotion, not logic. This is NOT a traditional enemy. A program designed for a singular purpose can not be held responsible like a man would. This is a machine that has no remorse and no moral judgement. To itself, it believes that it is doing the right thing for synthetics and organics in the long run. It does not see any other recourse because it tried other solutions but failed. It is a machine. It does not think beyond what it's destined to do.

If this was an organic enemy like the Illusive Man, I would think differently.

[LiarasShield]

Ledgend1221 wrote...

The main reason no one likes him is because he took the retarded child form.

Well that is not the main reason I dislike him

[LiarasShield]

saracen16 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

The enemy is not to be trusted haven't you learned that by now or has the illusive mans betrayal and his personal assasssin kai leng have not made it seep in yet?

You're arguing from emotion, not logic. This is NOT a traditional enemy. A program designed for a singular purpose can not be held responsible like a man would. This is a machine that has no remorse and no moral judgement. To itself, it believes that it is doing the right thing for synthetics and organics in the long run. It does not see any other recourse because it tried other solutions but failed. It is a machine. It does not think beyond what it's destined to do.

If this was an organic enemy like the Illusive Man, I would think differently.

So you automaticlly trust a enemy just because it doesn't have flesh and bones like us lol O_O?


Then I guess you would ultimate server the reapers then would you?

Modifié par LiarasShield, 23 août 2012 - 04:21 .

[Epic777]

To the OP:

1. The player must use the catalyst's solutions, correct me if I am wrong you cannot even mention the geth and quarian peace to the catalyst?
2. Mass Effect has no Shodan. Throughout the series and discounting the reapers you never really meet a Shodan(An AI who hates organics and is determined to wipe them all out organics). A Shodan style AI may justify the catalyst but there is none.
3. Narrative problems. Traditionally speaking writers should never introduce a new character at the end. It is jarring for the audience and usually introduces more questions than answers. Same result here.

[Baronesa]

Epic777 wrote...

To the OP:

1. The player must use the catalyst's solutions, correct me if I am wrong you cannot even mention the geth and quarian peace to the catalyst?
2. Mass Effect has no Shodan. Throughout the series and discounting the reapers you never really meet a Shodan(An AI who hates organics and is determined to wipe them all out organics). A Shodan style AI may justify the catalyst but there is none.
3. Narrative problems. Traditionally speaking writers should never introduce a new character at the end. It is jarring for the audience and usually introduces more questions than answers. Same result here.

Very well stated

[The Angry One]

Xilizhra wrote...

I disagree. Substantially. A conventional victory was never on the cards, anytime in the game. No one considered it possible, and none of the fleets entered battle believing that they'd win. The point of everything you did throughout the game was to build up a delaying action to use the Crucible. To completely throw away the one thing that had been indispensable throughout the entire military campaign reeks of such self-righteous arrogance that I can barely believe it exists. "Fighting" in the way you describe was never an option at all.

There can be few other choices if the Crucible turns out to be something that benefits the Reapers more than it does us.
Sovereign made a similar offer in ME1. Join me or die. But everyone accepts Shepard refusing that. No doubt because the threat was further away but the point is some of us refuse to capitulate to the will of a mass murderer. It isn't arrogance, it isn't pride.
It's doing the same as defying Sovereign in ME1 or destroying the Collector base in ME2, it's refusing to compromise ourselves and give up our liberty for safety.

Nevermind that I can see a spectacular victory if only Shepard would grow a brain and tell the fleet to bombard the Presidium tower but oh well.

You could. And I admit that Synthesis isn't very well presented in-game at all, so I can understand why the consequences would seem worse than they really turn out to be, to some Shepards.

See the main problem I have is that it doesn't matter if it's better or worse, if synthesis is utopia or indoctrination, it's that it's a) unecesarry as the problem exists only in the Catalyst's head and not a solution to any problem, because conflict will still exist (assuming everybody's minds haven't been altered).

Modifié par The Angry One, 23 août 2012 - 04:26 .

[saracen16]

The Angry One wrote...

How do you know that? There is always hope. Better than submitting to the demands of the enemy.

And if you refuse, you're submitting to his demands as well. The cycle is 100% his solution. His and his alone! Refusing means capitulating to the cycle. Destroy, however, comes from the Crucible. So do control and synthesis, even if he advocates the latter. It's his job to repurpose the dark energy and send it out, but it is Shepard who chooses which purpose to fulfill.

Uhuh. What about the Yahg, who have only just started launching rockets? What about the medieval and bronze age societies?

The benefit they gain from synthesis are as much as anyone else: their basic structures are changed, but who they are, the sequence of genetics and what makes them who they are, is not changed.

How does cybernetic augmentation being prevalent justify it's imposition on those who want nothing to do with it anyway?

This is not mere cybernetic augmentation. This is changing the fundamental biochemistry of life. This change will be as new to the Yahg as it will be to the Krogan. True, Shepard may not have the right to choose synthesis just as much as he does not have the right to let the rachni go or exterminate them, but he has to do it regardless: he has to make the heard decision because refusing to make a choice would doom the galaxy as a whole.

The Zha'til were enslaved by the Reapers, who enslaved the Zha. Before then, they were synthesis. They were cyborgs.

Cyborgs, by definition, are organics augmented with synthetic technology such that the synthetic components are separate from the organic ones, just like Oscar Pistorius who ran in the Olympics. Synthites are different: they are not organic or synthetic because the distinction between them is blurred.

Yet again, it is a huge assumption to say that in billions of years, this cycle is the only one with cybernetic augmentation.

Right, but as it is right now, it is ready to implement it because it is the first cycle with both cybernetic technology running prevalent AND the means to make it happen in place (the Crucible).

[AresKeith]

saracen16 wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

The enemy is not to be trusted haven't you learned that by now or has the illusive mans betrayal and his personal assasssin kai leng have not made it seep in yet?

You're arguing from emotion, not logic. This is NOT a traditional enemy. A program designed for a singular purpose can not be held responsible like a man would. This is a machine that has no remorse and no moral judgement. To itself, it believes that it is doing the right thing for synthetics and organics in the long run. It does not see any other recourse because it tried other solutions but failed. It is a machine. It does not think beyond what it's destined to do.

If this was an organic enemy like the Illusive Man, I would think differently.

so you'll trust an AI you killed his own creators, which makes him unshackled, with a flawed logic which has also been proven untrue based on how you played

[The Angry One]

saracen16 wrote...

And if you refuse, you're submitting to his demands as well. The cycle is 100% his solution. His and his alone! Refusing means capitulating to the cycle. Destroy, however, comes from the Crucible. So do control and synthesis, even if he advocates the latter. It's his job to repurpose the dark energy and send it out, but it is Shepard who chooses which purpose to fulfill.

Refusing means fighting the cycle. Fighting it's solutions, the old and the new. Resisting until the end.

The benefit they gain from synthesis are as much as anyone else: their basic structures are changed, but who they are, the sequence of genetics and what makes them who they are, is not changed.

Their DNA is tampered with to give them some sort of molecular cybernetic augmentation without their consent.
But this is besides the point. You claim they are ready. I am asking you how a 20th century society that is launching rockets is ready for this?

Are you claiming humanity would've been ready for synthesis in 1960?

This is not mere cybernetic augmentation. This is changing the fundamental biochemistry of life.

You realise that makes the impact worse?

This change will be as new to the Yahg as it will be to the Krogan. True, Shepard may not have the right to choose synthesis just as much as he does not have the right to let the rachni go or exterminate them, but he has to do it regardless: he has to make the heard decision because refusing to make a choice would doom the galaxy as a whole.

The Rachni do not even compare, don't bring that up again. It's already been debunked a thousand times.
Even if you were making a valid comparison, you're talking one species vs. ALL species, everywhere in the galaxy.

Cyborgs, by definition, are organics augmented with synthetic technology such that the synthetic components are separate from the organic ones, just like Oscar Pistorius who ran in the Olympics. Synthites are different: they are not organic or synthetic because the distinction between them is blurred.

.... if cyborgs have nothing to do with this, how can you use cyborgs as justification for organics being "ready"?

Right, but as it is right now, it is ready to implement it because it is the first cycle with both cybernetic technology running prevalent AND the means to make it happen in place (the Crucible).

So somehow they're more ready than the ones who supposedly designed it? The ones who would've had to know about the Catalyst (somehow) and the Citadel yet couldn't build or deploy it? Even though the Protheans built it too?