211 réponses à ce sujet

[Apophis2412]

A lot of ME fans really hated Ashley Williams because she said she believed in God. Fans called her all sorts of names like fundi, bigot and god-soldier. 
This always seemed strange to me, because she never said what type of believer she was. She only told Shepherd she believed in a theistic god and an afterlife.

Along came Dragon Age with Leliana. Leliana is far more religiuos than Ashley Williams. She believes that God/Maker specifically ordered her to help the GW's.  And while Ashley only talked about her beliefs during a single conversation it looks like the Maker is the only thing our Orlesian Bard can talk about.

Yet on these forums no one seems to hate Leliana. No one seems to care that she believes in a supreme being.

Thoughts?

Modifié par Apophis2412, 23 décembre 2009 - 01:14 .

[Original182]

More anti-religious freaks play Mass Effect than Dragon Age is the only explanation I can offer.

Edit: Hold on I have another one, are kids allowed to play Mass Effect?

Modifié par Original182, 23 décembre 2009 - 01:15 .

[JRCHOharry]

People disliked Ashley Williams because she was "racist" towards other alien races. The religious aspect of her only enraged more athiests on the forums.

I loved Ash and leliana despite their religious beliefs and i am not religious.

Can i haz cookie?

[Stuffy38]

Maybe its more to do with the setting - sci-fi versus medieval. It might be more acceptable to view Leliana as a sister because there's other clergy running about. You also have churches (chantry structures) and Templars.

I think in Mass Effect the only thing that comes to mind is the Hanar preacher in the Citadel, but its' been a while since I played it. Maybe the people who called the Ashley character those names were of the opinion that humanity would have outgrown religion by the time we were spacefaring.

[SeanMurphy2]

Ashley comes from Earth. So her belief system may appear closer to reality and relatable.



Leliana comes from Thedas. It is more of a fantasy setting.

[Kohaku]

I guess I never looked at the Mass Effect boards. I had no idea people hated her at all actually. I personally didn't like Ashley because she just wasn't interesting. Maybe I'll talk to her more in my current playthough.

Modifié par Kerridan Kaiba, 23 décembre 2009 - 01:34 .

[Laverick]

The hate for Ashley comes from the fact that she's a xenophobic hypocrite who outwardly disobeys the religious teachings she claims to believe in. Leliana isn't xenophobic or hypocritical, she's an honest and pure religious individual.

[Teknylanis]

I figured people loved Leliana more because even if she is religious, she has a cute accent. "Softie!"

But then maybe I'm oversimplifying it.

[cipherzx]

Ashley wasn't really a zealous bigot. Anyone who had the same family history/experiences would have close to the same view points as she did. I think most characters in both games were well designed. Except Alistair, I want to punch him every time I hear him talk.

[Squiggles1334]

So many people are complaining that RPGs pigeonhole women as either frail mages or limber rogue gymnasts and that we never get any solid tough chicks. Then when BioWare throws us a bone in the form of Ashley, people complain about her character background. Yeesh.

I <3 them both for how they were portrayed.

[Ulicus]

People tend to think Ashley was xenophobic and bigoted because they get her "dog" analogy backwards. The only comment of hers I found outright objectionable (instead of simply disagreeing with) was: "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" in the Presidium. Though she was right by a hanarr when she did so, in my case.

She actually has the very same opinion of aliens as does Kaidan: that they're just the same as humans. The difference is that Kaidan views this as a positive (we can all get along!), whereas Ashley sees this as a negative (they'll screw us over just like we screw each other over!).

As for her religious beliefs... I preferred Leliana over Ashley in that regard because she had a more sophisticated understanding of the divine (even if the Guardian does try to smack it down). Ashley had (what I believe to be) a very simplistic conception of God, as revealed when she talks about her father watching from the afterlife.

Modifié par Ulicus, 23 décembre 2009 - 01:58 .

[Squiggles1334]

By the way, Leliana doesn't come across as very preachy at all. If anything, Morrigan and Wynne were far more preachy in DA:O than Leliana ever was. The only time Leliana is preachy is in party banter with Morrigan as I recall. I don't think she ever tries to convince the player that the Maker is real, only talking in terms as if the Maker's existence was a given without forcing the player to accept the same premise. Meanwhile, Wynne is trying to give her unsolicited advice on how to run your life as if she has a wealth of world experience to pass on despite living out her entire life cooped up in a tower with almost no contact with the outside. And then Morrigan keeps trying to get you to adopt her survival-of-the-fittest-and-snarkiest worldview and gets all huffy and self-righteous if you tell her you're doing things for a greater good. Leliana is nowhere near as pushy as the mage companions in DA:O.

Seriously, it's like you teach someone how to manipulate the raw elements and it all goes to their head!

[Sialater]

I didn't hate Ashley because of her religious views. I hated her because she compared sentient intelligent lifeforms well more advanced than humans to DOGS. And I didn't get the impression at all that she thought they were the same as humans or just as bad. She was a card carrying Terra Firma member.



Lelianna is a far more gentle religious nut, though still prejudiced. (Talk to her as an elf.) However, she's more willing to have her mind changed. Or perhaps, she was more than willing to overlook my character's elf-ness to get into her armor.

[Ulicus]

Sialater wrote...

I didn't hate Ashley because of her religious views. I hated her because she compared sentient intelligent lifeforms well more advanced than humans to DOGS.

No, she didn't. In the frequently misunderstood "as much as you love your dog, it isn't human" analogy, she compared the Council races to the "human master" and humanity to the "dog" that they'd be willing to sacrifice.

[Xandurpein]

First of all Leliana and Ashley Wiliams are two very different persons. Leliana is outwardly girlish, while Ashley is a soldier type. I for one think Ashley was a really great character. I would rate it as one of the cooler romanceable characters Bioware has made, I just wish she had gotten more conversations.



I tihnk that people who accuse Ashley of being racist are reading way to much of our world into things. You have to remember that the races of ME are separate political entities. Each race is in fact a nation. It's a lot more fair to say that she is a patriot, than a xenophobe. Just think of how today the issue of foreign nations stealing military technology is a big issue for almost all national defence establishments. Is the U.S. government racist for trying to stop other governments stealing high-tech military technology?



Ashley wants to look out for Earth, becuase she thinks the other nations won't. She will listen to the MC if you try to explain why Earth first isn't always a priority. When I played, she would even say things that the end which clearly implied that she was all in favour of all nations/races cooperating, including Earth, rather than look to themselves in face of the threat from the Reapers.

[Zenon]

While I liked how both characters were written, I also like Leliana more. Why? Good question. I think Ash has a hard time being a soldier and a faithful person. To me she appeared more self-righteous and perhaps I got the impression that her religious faith in a (humanity) god gives her a hard time to accept, that in a world with many sentient more advanced alien species many aspects of the church teachings don't work well anymore. But she prefers to cling to them making her look down and suspicious on aliens. Just my impression.



Leliana is more cute and soft. She's a bard and not a fighter. A potential spy, who can be "hardened" at a certain point. Her belief and the way she talks make her appear a bit more naive in a harmless way. Since "the maker" created humans, elves, dwarves alike, there is no reason for xenophobia. Actually her explanation why she wanted to help (visions) made my hero feel a bit uneasy about her, but decided to give her a chance. Leliana also goes beyond chantry teachings and is willing to overcome the narrow-minded indoctrination of the chantry, making her a bit of a rebel to the established church of Ferelden.



So, Ash is rather straight-forward and tough, but also by the book concerning her religion. While the foundation of quite a few teachings of the bible obviously have fallen apart at the very moment it was evident humans were not only not alone, but also a much less advanced species in the universe she seems to cling quite strongly to the traditional beliefs in my impression. That makes her actually weak, using a partially obsolete religion like a crutch for her soul while physically being one of the toughest fighters on the Normandy save for Wrex maybe.



Leliana is soft and sweet, believes in the good of people, is more focused on the maker than the teachings, follows her own path and feels inspired by her religion. This makes Leliana appear more open-minded, and also enables the player more to influence her. Leliana seems to rely more on the PC to provide her protection and possibly guidance than Ash, who sometimes appears at the brink of subordination.



So, I saw Ash as a valuable member of my crew, but not more. Sadly the other members seemed more valuable, so I almost always left her behind with the bomb.



Leliana's value, apart from occasionally knowing some bits about new places, is mostly as an archer and lock-picker. Sometimes I leave her behind in my camp just to pick her up to unlock chests in cleared areas. But I enjoy conversations with her more. Her voice is sweeter, she is more affectionate, and to me prettier.

[Zenon]

Ulicus wrote...

Sialater wrote...

I didn't hate Ashley because of her religious views. I hated her because she compared sentient intelligent lifeforms well more advanced than humans to DOGS.

No, she didn't. In the frequently misunderstood "as much as you love your dog, it isn't human" analogy, she compared the Council races to the "human master" and humanity to the "dog" that they'd be willing to sacrifice.

But given the chance, she'd rather "sick" Wrex, Garrus or Liara, or the Quarian (forgot the name) than sacrificing a human life. She's suspicious of non-humans walking on a human ship. I think you can interpret her words in both ways: Humans being treated as dogs by the superior races, while humans if given a chance/choice rather sacrificing an alien than a human.

[Ulicus]

She's suspicious of non-humans walking about on the Alliance's most advanced vessel for reasons that ultimately have nothing to do with species, but rather allegiance. The fact that the turians helped co-design the Normandy doesn't seem to have filtered all the way down to the ground. It's that they're non-Alliance, rather than non-Human.

As for her analogy, the point is that she isn't saying: "lol, they're just like dogs" but rather saying that, when the worst comes to the worst on a species-wide level, the turians will be out for the turians, the asari will be out for the asari and the salarians will be out for the salarians (or, in broader strokes, the Council will be out for the Council). It's a negative outlook (that you can convince her to change) but not exactly morally objectionable... nor does it suggest that she'd be willing to send Tali off to her death in place of Human Redshirt #5, especially given that her skillset is infinitely more valuable.

In short, her analogy is specifically about the Council's relationship with other species as a whole. It's not intended to be reduced to every individual member of a species.

EDIT: If you want to continue, feel free to PM me (though I don't really have anything else to say). I don't want to derail the thread.

Modifié par Ulicus, 23 décembre 2009 - 02:48 .

[Zenon]

I feel, maybe I should play this conversation in ME again to refresh my memory how and in which context Ash mentions this quote... and then I may PM you. In the bottom line it is a strong statement about lack of trust towards/between humans and other species. Ah, Tali was the name of the Quarian again.

[Sialater]

Ulicus wrote...

Sialater wrote...

I didn't hate Ashley because of her religious views. I hated her because she compared sentient intelligent lifeforms well more advanced than humans to DOGS.

No, she didn't. In the frequently misunderstood "as much as you love your dog, it isn't human" analogy, she compared the Council races to the "human master" and humanity to the "dog" that they'd be willing to sacrifice.

I don't agree.  And I've thought about that statement quite a bit because I don't like having such a strong reaction to a pixilated creation.  Also, I forgive NPCs their flaws, hence my forgiving almost every one but Loghain their craziness in DA:O.  Unless something happens after Virmire where she explains further?  (She's never survived Virmire in either my husband's games or mine.)

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

On topic: Bashing religion on the internet is cool. Look at Digg. Look at Slashdot. That there was a religious character in a video game was a fantastic move by BioWare. Would have been nice to present both takes on how religious people will see ET life (assuming it is there), but hey, it's a game.



Off topic: Who are two chicks I'd totally love to see wrestle in hot oil, Alex?

[Squiggles1334]

*Hot* oil? Wouldn't that be painful and possibly fatal? 

Was Ashley ever actually a card-carrying member of Terra Firma? I seem to recall she had some derisive comments about the organization being full of xenophobes if she's with Shepard when they encounter the protesters in the wards later in the game.

Memory's a little flabby right now, I think it needs a jog. Anyone?

[DPSSOC]

Leliana also has the crazy card to play. Far as we know Ashley was completely sane, her views matter. Leliana on the other hand could very well be insane, her views don't. Therefore Ashley being religious = Hate Leliana being religious = Amusing crazy person

[Herr Uhl]

Alastair and Wynne also believe in said supreme being.



And since when has bigotry had anything to do with believing in a supreme being?

[Sialater]

Yeah, I don't see Ashley's religion to have any connection to her racism.