211 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

Regarding Ashley's faith. Ashley's religion is very much a private thing for her. She does not want to convert you, all she wants is for you to respect her belief. If you choose the dialogue option to say everyone is allowed to believe what they want, she'll be perfectly happy with the response.



Regarding Ashley's alleged racism, I think that people base their arguments on a lot of assumptions. What is the nature of these alien races. Apart from the obviously ridiculous fantasy notion that alien female's have shapes that appear sexy to humans and so on, the biggest issue is whetehr they are REALLY different from us or not. We knoe some races are factually different culturally from us - like the Krogans.



I am guessing that those who condemn Ashley for being a racist, assume in their minds that alien races think basically the same as humans, but look a bit different, maybe a bit like the difference between an englishman and a vietnamese or something.



Those who would have no problem with her (like me) would assume that someone coming from a completly alien race would be different from us in culture, manner and so on that it would be different on a different magnitiude. Saying humans can't be friends with an alien in the way two humans can be would be a natural assumption in that case, even though unique individuals can trancend the border.



I do not for a moment believe that the reference to a dog, means that she looks down on aliens, merely that she says they are too different for us to ever understand each other the way two humans can. Even if her assumption is wrong, it's not an unreasonable assumption, especially from someone who has spent her life fighting against alien races. And she does change her views when she has a time to talk it over with the MC.



Remember also that if you adopt the view that being suspicious of people because they are aliens, you are basically condemning the entire council who do not trust humans, not to mention what they did to the Krogans.



As for the fact that Ashley don't want aliens on the ship, this has nothing to do with racism. It is simply military security. The truth is that the whole idea that the alliance would let alien mercenaries have access to the latest technology in the Allliance under the political circumstances described in ME is really totally ludicrous. NO WAY the Alliance would allow other nations(= races) have access to their latest military technology like on Normandy in real life.

[enderandrew]

Let me get this straight? The same people who are chastising Ashley for not not inherently trusting all races, are calling her racist and a bigot.



They turn around and say they judge and hate people for believing in God.



Pot. Kettle. Black.



Being judgmental means being judgmental.

[Xandurpein]

enderandrew wrote...

Let me get this straight? The same people who are chastising Ashley for not not inherently trusting all races, are calling her racist and a bigot.

They turn around and say they judge and hate people for believing in God.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Being judgmental means being judgmental.

To be fair, a lot more people seem to have problems with her alleged racism, than with her faith, but that doesn't detract from the essential truth in your post.

[Nosuchluck]

Ashely isn't anymore racist than anyone else. I'd view aliens suspiciously and I'd certainly be more willing to sacrifice an alien life than a humans. I honestly think most people would do the same, it's just far more socially acceptable to put on a fake smile and blab on about equality. That's why I think Ashely get's all the hate, people are trying desperatly hard to make themselves look non-racist when in reality they probably have racist thoughts i.e humans are better than aliens, people who look like me are more important than people who don't etc. It's not politcally correct or morally correct, but hey it's how humans work. It's only natural to try and survive and in the natural world that usually means being suspicious/avoiding/killing anything which isn't you.

Of course we've developed beyond that but it's still hard to shake those instincts.

Modifié par Nosuchluck, 23 décembre 2009 - 06:28 .

[Xandurpein]

Nosuchluck wrote...

Ashely isn't anymore racist than anyone else. I'd view aliens suspiciously and I'd certainly be more willing to sacrifice an alien life than a humans. I honestly think most people would do the same, it's just far more socially acceptable to put on a fake smile and blab on about equality. That's why I think Ashely get's all the hate, people are trying desperatly hard to make themselves look non-racist when in reality they probably have racist thoughts i.e humans are better than aliens, people who look like me are more important than people who don't etc. It's not politcally correct or morally correct, but hey it's how humans work. It's only natural to try and survive and in the natural world that usually means being suspicious/avoiding/killing anything which isn't you.

Of course we've developed beyond that but it's still hard to shake those instincts.

I sincerely hope that this thread doesn't devolve into a discussion about human's eventual "natural" inclination towards racism, or this thread will no doubt be closed REALLY fast, and rightly so. Please keep things clean.

[Zenon]

Sialater wrote...

I don't agree.

Ulicus wrote...

It isn't a matter of opinion to say that Ashley compared the non-human races to dogs when she didn't. Sorry.

As for post-Virmire: You can convince her to adopt a more optimistic view of the Council, by which she no longer assumes that the Council will use humanity as "a dog" against "the bear", before Virmire.

Sialater wrote...

It is a matter of interpretation.  I don't agree with your interpretation.


And no, I've never taken her past Virmire since I've always romanced Kaiden.  So I've never changed her mind.  Perhaps your interpretation is reflective of your post Virmire conversation?

mb1713 wrote...

Remember the Krogan? The Council thought nothing of picking them up from some toxic backward planet and using them to commit genocide against the Racchi. And what happened afterwards, when the Korgan got to big for thier britches'? They found another stray (Turians) and sic'ed them on the Krogan to commit yet another genocide for them.

So history shows that the Council is willing to let other species do the grunt and dirty work for them,and combine that with the general dislike of humanity by the Turains, and you have an even greater chance that Humanity will be the council's next "dog".

Also, look at from the view of current politics. Who are the new comers to the galactic stage? Humanity.
Who are the current political powerhouse? The Council.

Based on the current power levels, there is no way Humanity can order the Council to attack their enemy.. look, the Ambassador couldn't even get them to deal with the Geth after they blatantly attacked a human colony in Citadel space.

So not only does history prove Ashley's analogy correct, but the current politial structure shows that Humanity can not be the "master" in the analogy.

Sialater wrote...



I agree that it can be interpreted as such, I just don't think she meant it as such, therefore I don't interpret her analogy as meaning the humans are the dog.  Just because she quotes Ulysses, doesn't mean she knows what it means.

I just found the scene on youtube. Here is the link:


The statement we talk about is in the video starting about 5 minutes into the clip.

So, Ulcius was right when it came to how Ashley put it. She first suggested man-kind needs to be able to stand by themselves, because the council races were likely abandon humanity and save their own hides first, when things go bad. Then the analogy with the dog comes. Seeing the quote as a whole in this analogy the council races would be the human master facing a bear and sacrificing the dog (representing humanity) to save their lives.

Still it seems to me, that Ash would be inclined to do the same vice versa with this way of thinking. If humanity can survive by letting aliens die in their place, she'd probably go for it. I never had her with me, when the decision about saving the council comes up. Would be interesting to see how she reacts (potentially variable depending on previous interaction with the PC).

Concerning her faith: Ash doesn't seem to be a fanatic. And even it's obvious she's referring to Christian belief, she keeps it quite open which kind of denomination she belongs to. Of course one can believe in god without taking all of the bible literally. But it somehow seemed to fit her character. Sorry, if I perhaps interpreted more into her, than there is.

EDIT:
Just found also a youtube clip of the final decision including a discussion involving Ashley. See for yourselves how she argues here (starting about 4 minutes into the video):


I don't regret my decision on Virmire anymore saving Kaidan... even with my male hero, who in fact fell for Liara's charme long before anyway. But I still would have saved her, if there would have been a way.


P.S.: I tried to untangle the quotes, so it's easier to read. Please use in-line quoting to prevent the boxes to shrink to ridiculously small size.

Modifié par Zenon, 23 décembre 2009 - 10:31 .

[Time4Tiddy]

So, while we discuss the philosophical portrayal of religion in video games and how it's expressed by NPCs, they (the religious) discuss the alien sideboob and 3 seconds of elf on man action. I'm going to say round one goes to the nerds!

Grats all.

[Tirigon]

I dont know Ashley, but I can still give you hope for fairness: I hate Leliannas fanatism, the only reason I dont kill her in the sacred ashes quest is that she´s the only girl-girl romance option.

Btw, am I the only one whom it struck as curious that the religious fanatic is bisexual?

[Klystron]

Tirigon wrote...

I dont know Ashley, but I can still give you hope for fairness: I hate Leliannas fanatism, the only reason I dont kill her in the sacred ashes quest is that she´s the only girl-girl romance option.
Btw, am I the only one whom it struck as curious that the religious fanatic is bisexual?

I certainly noticed it...

[Maconbar]

Klystron wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

I dont know Ashley, but I can still give you hope for fairness: I hate Leliannas fanatism, the only reason I dont kill her in the sacred ashes quest is that she´s the only girl-girl romance option.
Btw, am I the only one whom it struck as curious that the religious fanatic is bisexual?

I certainly noticed it...

I don't think that Leliana can accurately be described as a religious "fanatic". A fanatic is generally very intolerant of differing views. Although Leliana has strongly held views about the importance of the Maker, I don't see much evidence of intolerance in her statements. Admittedly I have yet to defile Andraste's Ashes.  

[Curlain]

Agreed, religious believer does not equal religious fanatic in any form. Fanatics can come for all religious, philosophical points of view and belief (you can have a atheistic Communist fanatic just like you can have a religious zealot), and all are usually perversions that don't truly represent that belief system (whatever kind it is, atheist, agnostic, theistic or other).



And Leliana will definitely somewhat odd at times, is not a fanatic, she shows tolerance for others viewpoints and never attempts to convert others or push her faith on others, but only expresses her belief in the Maker occasionally in conversation (again, never enforcing her view on others).



So yep, I don't really think she can be called a fanatic, just someone with a deep conviction in what she believes she has exprienced

[Squiggles1334]

For a cloister sister of the Chantry, Leliana's personal theologies were actually pretty liberal compared to the way the rest of the Chantry is typically portrayed. I know there's a small conversation she has (I think it's party banter) where she suggests that it's possible some of the ancient gods that the Dalish elves were simply the Maker presenting himself to them in a different name and manner than to the humans (I forgot the exact wording she used). It struck me as far more openminded than the Chantry that led an Exalted March on the original Dales for the "crime" of preserving their old culture and religious worship, and it seemed very much in line with her old bardic profession, being a student and collector of lore, legends, and tales. I don't think she *ever* actually tries to push her views on the PC.

[Never]

It probably helps that Leli is far more likable. I couldn't stomach having Ash in my group at all, and that had nothing to do with the fact that she believed in God.

[Taritu]

mb1713 wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

Sialater wrote...
I don't agree.

It isn't a matter of opinion to say that Ashley compared the non-human races to dogs when she didn't. Sorry.

As for post-Virmire: You can convince her to adopt a more optimistic view of the Council, by which she no longer assumes that the Council will use humanity as "a dog" against "the bear", before Virmire.

It is a matter of interpretation.  I don't agree with your interpretation.


And no, I've never taken her past Virmire since I've always romanced Kaiden.  So I've never changed her mind.  Perhaps your interpretation is reflective of your post Virmire conversation?

Remember the Krogan? The Council thought nothing of picking them up from some toxic backward planet and using them to commit genocide against the Racchi. And what happened afterwards, when the Korgan got to big for thier britches'? They found another stray (Turians) and sic'ed them on the Krogan to commit yet another genocide for them.

So history shows that the Council is willing to let other species do the grunt and dirty work for them,and combine that with the general dislike of humanity by the Turains, and you have an even greater chance that Humanity will be the council's next "dog".

Also, look at from the view of current politics. Who are the new comers to the galactic stage? Humanity.
Who are the current political powerhouse? The Council.

Based on the current power levels, there is no way Humanity can order the Council to attack their enemy.. look, the Ambassador couldn't even get them to deal with the Geth after they blatantly attacked a human colony in Citadel space.

So not only does history prove Ashley's analogy correct, but the current politial structure shows that Humanity can not be the "master" in the analogy.

Er, the Krogan were settling already settled world's.  Which is to say, they were wiping out other sentient races.  And the Rachni attacked, never negotiated and seemed to be intent on galaxy wide genocide.

If humanity doesn't try to take the other races worlds from them, or commit galaxy wide genocide, well, the council probably won't try and do the same to them.  There's an argument that the council went too far, but remember, the Krogan were dropping asteroids on worlds during the war.  They were playing for keeps, and killing trillions.

[Taritu]

Xandurpein wrote...

Regarding Ashley's faith. Ashley's religion is very much a private thing for her. She does not want to convert you, all she wants is for you to respect her belief. If you choose the dialogue option to say everyone is allowed to believe what they want, she'll be perfectly happy with the response.

Regarding Ashley's alleged racism, I think that people base their arguments on a lot of assumptions. What is the nature of these alien races. Apart from the obviously ridiculous fantasy notion that alien female's have shapes that appear sexy to humans and so on, the biggest issue is whetehr they are REALLY different from us or not. We knoe some races are factually different culturally from us - like the Krogans.

I am guessing that those who condemn Ashley for being a racist, assume in their minds that alien races think basically the same as humans, but look a bit different, maybe a bit like the difference between an englishman and a vietnamese or something.

Those who would have no problem with her (like me) would assume that someone coming from a completly alien race would be different from us in culture, manner and so on that it would be different on a different magnitiude. Saying humans can't be friends with an alien in the way two humans can be would be a natural assumption in that case, even though unique individuals can trancend the border.

I do not for a moment believe that the reference to a dog, means that she looks down on aliens, merely that she says they are too different for us to ever understand each other the way two humans can. Even if her assumption is wrong, it's not an unreasonable assumption, especially from someone who has spent her life fighting against alien races. And she does change her views when she has a time to talk it over with the MC.

Remember also that if you adopt the view that being suspicious of people because they are aliens, you are basically condemning the entire council who do not trust humans, not to mention what they did to the Krogans.

As for the fact that Ashley don't want aliens on the ship, this has nothing to do with racism. It is simply military security. The truth is that the whole idea that the alliance would let alien mercenaries have access to the latest technology in the Allliance under the political circumstances described in ME is really totally ludicrous. NO WAY the Alliance would allow other nations(= races) have access to their latest military technology like on Normandy in real life.

Shepard is not under Alliance command, and the Normandy is a joint Turian/Alliance project which the council as a whole put money into.  As Kaidan says "they have a right to keep an eye on their investment".  The only person onboard who's a real security threat is Tali, she's the only one who could understand what was done.  And yes, she is a security threat, but...

[AtreiyaN7]

If you take Ashley's xenophobia, not that I'd call it that exactly as it's more of a Cerberus humans first stance, AND mix in her religious beliefs, I believe that most people start thinking "religious zealot/bigot." Maybe the fact that she was strong-willed and possibly abrasive rubbed people the wrong way? My understanding of her attitude towards aliens is that it stems in part from having her family's reputation ruined because of the Shanxi incident (or whatever, I'd need to have my Codex open to get the name right). From what Ashley said, she had no problems working with aliens if Shepard ordered it, but she did point out that aliens would turn on us and put their races first if it came down to that. I think she essentially said that they were behaving like humans would and would protect their own self-interests (and then I went my Paragon route and talked about needing to work together, etc. etc.).

In the ME universe, there are multiple alien races and/or religions, along with those who are completely atheistic. It appears that, based on Shepard's conversation with Ashley, humanity as a whole seems to have turned mostly atheistic with the exception of those few who are still religious. In Thedas however, everyone basically believes in the Maker and the Chantry, except for the Dalish and/or those in Tevinter who may still worship the Old Gods. Religion is still dominant in the lives of DA:O humans, so I expect that that's why Lelilana's religious beliefs are basically no big deal.

Besides, yes, ME is science fiction, so I imagine the majority of people want religion to stay out of it. I'm certainly not religious by a longshot, yet I am accepting of religion being in a game and therefore never had a real issue with Ashley.I just don't think most people quite understood her/had a kneejerk reaction to her.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 24 décembre 2009 - 12:41 .

[mb1713]

Taritu wrote...

mb1713 wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

Sialater wrote...
I don't agree.

It isn't a matter of opinion to say that Ashley compared the non-human races to dogs when she didn't. Sorry.

As for post-Virmire: You can convince her to adopt a more optimistic view of the Council, by which she no longer assumes that the Council will use humanity as "a dog" against "the bear", before Virmire.

It is a matter of interpretation.  I don't agree with your interpretation.


And no, I've never taken her past Virmire since I've always romanced Kaiden.  So I've never changed her mind.  Perhaps your interpretation is reflective of your post Virmire conversation?

Remember the Krogan? The Council thought nothing of picking them up from some toxic backward planet and using them to commit genocide against the Racchi. And what happened afterwards, when the Korgan got to big for thier britches'? They found another stray (Turians) and sic'ed them on the Krogan to commit yet another genocide for them.

So history shows that the Council is willing to let other species do the grunt and dirty work for them,and combine that with the general dislike of humanity by the Turains, and you have an even greater chance that Humanity will be the council's next "dog".

Also, look at from the view of current politics. Who are the new comers to the galactic stage? Humanity.
Who are the current political powerhouse? The Council.

Based on the current power levels, there is no way Humanity can order the Council to attack their enemy.. look, the Ambassador couldn't even get them to deal with the Geth after they blatantly attacked a human colony in Citadel space.

So not only does history prove Ashley's analogy correct, but the current politial structure shows that Humanity can not be the "master" in the analogy.

Er, the Krogan were settling already settled world's.  Which is to say, they were wiping out other sentient races.  And the Rachni attacked, never negotiated and seemed to be intent on galaxy wide genocide.

If humanity doesn't try to take the other races worlds from them, or commit galaxy wide genocide, well, the council probably won't try and do the same to them.  There's an argument that the council went too far, but remember, the Krogan were dropping asteroids on worlds during the war.  They were playing for keeps, and killing trillions.

Uh.. no where in my post was I addressing blame, my point was twice in history, did the council (Human Masters) take a newcomer - Korgans, Turians (dogs) and had them attack thier enemy - Rachni, Korgan (bear).

[The Angry One]

People who hated Ashley because she was somewhat racist vs. aliens always amused me, because the entire plot of Mass Effect is racist against it's aliens.

The whole premise revolves around the fact that all the aliens are stodgy, stubborn and unimaginative. Humans are teh awesome and save the day with our quick thinking and good looks. Hell the ending consists entirely of Shepard and Anderson self-pleasuring themselves on humanity's incredible awesomeness.



Meanwhile Ashley says she doesn't trust aliens. OH NOES.

[Kabraxal]

I don't get the whole "Mass Effect is more athiestic" I have seen perpetuated. There is obviously spiritual humans left and both the Asari and the Selarians seem to be intensely spiritual. Also, given the vibe of the reapers as well, I would say Mass Effect is far more spiritual than what people consider.



Anyway... there is some dislike for Leliana and her "religious craziness". It just isn't as prevalent as the hatred for Ash, though Ash has her army of faithful lovers behind her to combat it.



If anything, it is the fact that Ash is very much a conflicted woman with a strong personality who is quite cynical and slightly jaded. I think it is the cynicism that truly rubs people the wrong way. It is that same cynicism people continually mistake for racism.

[The Angry One]

Of course Mass Effect is spiritual; the Geth worship Sovereign as their god, and he's real!

What, that doesn't count? That's anti-synthetic racism, that is.

[Kabraxal]

Forgot the Geth religion. I am ashamed.

[Sialater]

The Angry One wrote...

People who hated Ashley because she was somewhat racist vs. aliens always amused me, because the entire plot of Mass Effect is racist against it's aliens.
The whole premise revolves around the fact that all the aliens are stodgy, stubborn and unimaginative. Humans are teh awesome and save the day with our quick thinking and good looks. Hell the ending consists entirely of Shepard and Anderson self-pleasuring themselves on humanity's incredible awesomeness.

Meanwhile Ashley says she doesn't trust aliens. OH NOES.

You have a very good point.


"Beautiful women, this emotion called 'love.'...."

[borelocin]

The Angry One wrote...

Of course Mass Effect is spiritual; the Geth worship Sovereign as their god, and he's real!
What, that doesn't count? That's anti-synthetic racism, that is.

I just spat drink out of my nose

[Axterix]

mb1713 wrote...

Uh.. no where in my post was I addressing blame, my point was twice in history, did the council (Human Masters) take a newcomer - Korgans, Turians (dogs) and had them attack thier enemy - Rachni, Korgan (bear).

One thing worth noting here though:  The council lacked soldier races. 

The 2 non-tauran races on the council are both more commandos than hold the line, seize the ground type of soldiers.  Both times, the enemies they faced were very numerous, not the type you can deal with using commandos.  And the taurans became a council race themselves, one of only 3.  Of the other races we see that are militarily inclined, the Batharians were, but not sure when they joined (and, of course, they left after they didn't get support against the humans), but the rest aren't.  So it isn't so much expedience as it is necessity.  In both cases, they were losing before they found the ground pounding, big fleet inclined race.

And, yes, had taurans turned on the council, you betcha the council would have relied on humans the same way.

But overall, an empire in a non-peaceful universe needs militiary muscle.  And it makes sense to use races for the things they are best suited for.

Anyway, I like Ashley, personally.

Yeah, she's got some mistrust about other races.  In the universe of ME, it sort of makes sense.  After all, humanity has fought 2 wars against council races, one of them against a race on the Council.  There's a lot of aliens saying not so nice things about humans.  And a lot of raids on human colonies, colonies in an area humanity was encourage to settle, only they never get backing when things get ugly there.*  And then there's races like the Volus, who have been an important part for a long time, huge economically, but because they didn't get in early enough and/or lack some physical muscle, still are not on the council.  And her family is essentially blacklisted because of the attack by the Tuarans.  So, yeah, maybe she carries a grudge, maybe she keeps an eye on the aliens so she doesn't get screwed again.

As for the letting the council die, well, the council does plenty of things to annoy your character along the way.  So you don't exactly have to feel a debt of gratitude to them.  Of course, that's because the dialogue is meant to be grey, so you can go nice guy out to prove humans are worthy or not so nice guy out to right the wrong of aliens keeping humanity down.

Anyway, while I might not agree with everything Ashley says, what I do like about her is that she's the strong warrior type.  She knows what she is and she isn't sorry for it.  She isn't going to change to please you, she'd prefer it if you liked her for who she is.  Overall, she's far less emotionally damaged than Morrigan and a lot more stable than Leliana.

*Of course, that's according to the ambassador...it could well be that
humanity pushed for more worlds to colonize and so they got the crappy
area as a compromise...they wanted quantity, so they got the area
others preferred to avoid.