People who hated Ashley because she was somewhat racist vs. aliens always amused me, because the entire plot of Mass Effect is racist against it's aliens. The whole premise revolves around the fact that all the aliens are stodgy, stubborn and unimaginative. Humans are teh awesome and save the day with our quick thinking and good looks. Hell the ending consists entirely of Shepard and Anderson self-pleasuring themselves on humanity's incredible awesomeness.
Meanwhile Ashley says she doesn't trust aliens. OH NOES.
Don't forget one simple thing that is stated as fact: any artificially intelligent life form will want to kill intelligent biologicals. Not just some, but all of them. And everyone accepts this. And so, genocide is the right and proper thing to do, because, if you don't, they will certainly do it to you.
Overall, if you look at it, the Geth aren't really that bad for the most part. They managed to avoid being wiped out by their creators. They went all isolationist. It is only a religious crusade that brings them out of that isolationism. And, hey, can you really blame them for following someone that wants to do to biologicals what the bios want to do to the Geth?
Well you can sorta play devil's advocate for the Geth with Tali but she gives the same stupid justifications of "duur they hate organics because they do and not, you know, because we tried to exterminate them." and there's no option to tell her to shut the hell up.
Like others have said it's probably due to the fact that it's easier to believe that the Maker exist within the DA:O universe thus justifying Leliana's beliefs. It's probably also due to the fact that Leliana's more girlish as well.
Nonetheless, I'm ridin' with Ashley all the way. Ash Warriors unite!
I don't mind fictional gods in a game world...religion makes great mythology, after all. I didn't play Mass Effect, so I can't comment on Ashley, but if her religious beliefs were portrayed in a way that made it appear she believed in a real-world deity I can see why that would annoy people.
The settings are also probably a factor. One would expect people in general to be less reliant on faith and thus less religious in a more evolved and knowledgeable story universe.
Leliana believes in a totally made up, argued about origins of, made up by Bioware, deity... While as Ashley believed in God... Without it being clearly stated to be a made up by Bioware deity that noone IRL can ever have any correlation to...
Why? Actually, the Maker is (though stupid) a better god than the christian one, and if I had to choose between them without any other choice I´d surely pick the Maker - If only because "Maker´s Breath!" is cooler than "Oh My God!"
Was it that hard to understand the difference? So that's why Leliana hasn't been as thrashed by atheists as much... Worse imo to se all religious fanatics write here in the forums.... Pffft... Morries baby being "a DEVIL child" wtf?
Heresy!!!!! Satan doesnt sleep with such an ugly girl. He has much more beautiful witches available to get children with, and his child shall rule the earth then, not hide in F*cking Orlais.
Bah! Religious folks... Religion denies intelligence... *Personal opinion, feel free to flame me for it, fanatics always do*
Im not a fanatic, but may I flame you nevertheless, just for fun, please?
Well you can sorta play devil's advocate for the Geth with Tali but she gives the same stupid justifications of "duur they hate organics because they do and not, you know, because we tried to exterminate them." and there's no option to tell her to shut the hell up.
I hope ME2 takes a more balanced view on things.
Actually, there is kind of a way to get her to shut up.
My Renegade Shep hated Tali by the end and refused to give her the data she wanted for her pilgrimage [smilie]../../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]
I doubt my Renegade Shep will be wanting to recruit her for ME2, I hope unlike the first game there isn't as many 'forced' party members (like Tali was!)
As for why more Ash hate than Leli, I think most others have summed up the differences that make Ash stick out more than Leli, I personally think it is laughable because we're talking about computer game characters and people are treating them like real people. I guess that shows good writing by the people that created them, but I think some people take it too far. Like I went onto the ME boards the other day for first time in ages and noticed how there is already hatred for Suze (Subject Zero) and I just thought to myself "Sheesh you ain't even played the game yet..."
My Renegade Shep hated Tali by the end and refused to give her the data she wanted for her pilgrimage [smilie]../../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]
Ironic then considering how "renegade" Tali herself is. Bring her along for the finale and she's all like "let the Council dieee muahahahaha diediedie deathdeathkill!" Me, I just can't follow that advice. Not that I like the Council any, but I don't like letting the Destiny Ascension get blowed up. Yes I value a funny lookin' ship more than people's lives. Go me!
I doubt my Renegade Shep will be wanting to recruit her for ME2, I hope unlike the first game there isn't as many 'forced' party members (like Tali was!)
Considering ME2 seems to have a lot of involvement with the Colonial fleet Quarian flotilla I rather doubt she'll be optional, and she's rather popular with most players for some reason that surely does not involve her massive child-bearing hips.
As for why more Ash hate than Leli, I think most others have summed up the differences that make Ash stick out more than Leli, I personally think it is laughable because we're talking about computer game characters and people are treating them like real people. I guess that shows good writing by the people that created them, but I think some people take it too far. Like I went onto the ME boards the other day for first time in ages and noticed how there is already hatred for Suze (Subject Zero) and I just thought to myself "Sheesh you ain't even played the game yet..."
Like they say, haters will hate. There were plenty of anti-Kaidan/anti-Ashley people before ME1 came out.
Modifié par The Angry One, 24 décembre 2009 - 11:25 .
People who hated Ashley because she was somewhat racist vs. aliens always amused me, because the entire plot of Mass Effect is racist against it's aliens. The whole premise revolves around the fact that all the aliens are stodgy, stubborn and unimaginative. Humans are teh awesome and save the day with our quick thinking and good looks. Hell the ending consists entirely of Shepard and Anderson self-pleasuring themselves on humanity's incredible awesomeness.
Meanwhile Ashley says she doesn't trust aliens. OH NOES.
Because aliens suck. The citadel is ours now! Terra Ferma!
About Ashley. I don't mind any of her views, in fact, I might agree with all of them. But she still didn't do it for me. I don't know, I felt she was very bland. Not talking about looks (though she was not extraordinary). Just her personality. She was boring. Leliana might sound crazy, but at least it's cute. Morrigan might be a **** but she is an interesting one.
Mass Effect was horrible in terms of romance options. To the point where I just wanted to romance Tali cause she was the best female character.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 décembre 2009 - 11:26 .
Even though I'm an atheist I don't begrudge people their faith or views on inter-species relationships, besides she was a soldier not a cleric or a politician.
I don't care how she justified her killing people just as long as she did.
In short peoples motivation for joining me in the killing of others doesn't matter to me, just as long as they do it and do it well.
Pah, the best female character in Mass Effect will always be FemShep. Jennifer Hale really sells the character for me.
Well obviously, but sadly we can't make our PC romance herself....and watch...
Renegade FemShep is already in love with herself. Actually, since BioWare have given us straight and gay sex, why not self-stimulation? You could even buy a selection of super advanced vibrators, from Earth-made to high end Krogan. Male sheps could have.. a box of tissues I suppose. And be able to steal panties from female party members.
Pah, the best female character in Mass Effect will always be FemShep. Jennifer Hale really sells the character for me.
Well obviously, but sadly we can't make our PC romance herself....and watch...
Renegade FemShep is already in love with herself. Actually, since BioWare have given us straight and gay sex, why not self-stimulation? You could even buy a selection of super advanced vibrators, from Earth-made to high end Krogan. Male sheps could have.. a box of tissues I suppose. And be able to steal panties from female party members.
Oh c'mon I'm just saying what we're all thinking.
Yea why not? Joker: "Commander, a reaper ship just came by, we are screwed" Sheppard: "perfect timing. Just wait a sec, I will be coming soon". Reaper: "Rudamentary disgusting self-touching organics".
People disliked Ashley Williams because she was "racist" towards other alien races. The religious aspect of her only enraged more athiests on the forums. I loved Ash and leliana despite their religious beliefs and i am not religious. Can i haz cookie?
*gives cookie*
Yeah, Ashley wasn't anymore religious than "I believe in God." How fanatical, right? People slander Ashley for trying to be realistic. The worst she ever said was that beings are more likely to adhere to their own species than other species--which is true, no? At best, it's still an instinct we need face honestly in order to overcome. Besides, you can steer her away from that idea. But people are like, "How DARE you be mean to Tali!" or whatever, which is not at all what Ash was doing.
I would surmise some don't like Ashley because they're intimidated by a strong woman who knows her own mind, so they judge her just because she doesn't offer her opinions weakly and fumblingly with many nervous glances at the floor.
Sialater wrote...
I didn't hate Ashley because of her religious views. I hated her because she compared sentient intelligent lifeforms well more advanced than humans to DOGS.
This is exactly the kind of strawman argument that ticks me off, taken drastically out of context by stubborn people whodecided not to give Ashley a chance, choosing to hate her instead of listening and considering her point of view whether it was warm and fuzzy or not.
Not that comparing aliens to a dog would be an insult anyway. Dogs are loyal and brave and protective.
What she said, in context, was "As noble as the Council members seem now, if their backs are against the wall, they'll abandon us. If you’re fighting a bear and the only way for you to survive is to sic your dog on it and run, you’ll do it. As much as you love your dog, it isn’t human."
She was comparinghumans to dogs. Humans. Saying the Council thought of humans as less than them, as cannon fodder. And you know what? Of those arrogant and hypocritical bastards? She was 100% on target. She even defends them afterwards by saying, "It's not racism, not really. Members of their species will always be more important to them than humans are." Way too damned nice, because if you ask me, it IS racism. I never saw anyone on my crew as being more or less important because of their species, but the Council clearly saw humans as brash children.
It is not a matter of opinion or interpretation what Ashley was saying. It is quite simply a hard fact that in her analogy the human represented the aliens and the dog represented the humans; it only makes sense when you consider that they are the ones in power (not humanity) who sicced YOU on Saren, and thus--pardon my bluntness, but you were just plain dead wrong about her intentions in this conversation.
Zenon wrote... EDIT: Just found also a youtube clip of the final decision including a discussion involving Ashley. See for yourselves how she argues here (starting about 4 minutes into the video):
First, that scene doesn't seem to take into account what happens if you push Ash away from her cynicism (not racism.) Second, they always have one party member arguing for a decision and one against, depending on who is there. It's the same with the Rachni Queen.
Ash says "we have to concentrate on Sovereign" and "What have the Council ever done for us?" What the Council did for us was step in the way of you saving the galaxy from certain destruction at every turn.You don't have universal knowledge, you don't know if you can save the Council AND stop Sovereign in time. I personally said "Concentrate on Sovereign" every single time. I might have sacrificed human lives for a Council that actually was doing a good job to the point where civilization might fall apart without them regardless of whether the Reapers appeared--but they were not at all a benefit to the galaxy. They were arrogant, racist pigs, and I refuse to believe that the asari/turians/salarians don't have any wiser people they can put in a job like that, anymore than I could believe freaking Udina was the best humanity had to offer.
I actually have no idea how the Council and Udina even got jobs in the first place. I don't want to imagine.
Eh I don't get the Council hate. Personally despite what the game tried to tell me I think the Council acted reasonably, for the most part. For politicians anyway.
They were the ones who intervened on behalf of humanity when the Turians just wanted to smush them, they were the ones who told the Batarians to screw off and let humans muscle in on their territory, they entertained the idea of humans becoming more involved when other races have been sharing embassies for millenia (not that you'd *want* an Elcor or a bloody Hanar on the Council anyway, but you see my point).
Yeah they treat humans like stupid kids but in ME the humans are ACTING like stupid kids, what with Udina's intolerable whining and Anderson's "we deserve more because we're omgawesomesauce humans!"
It's only because of a giant act of plot in the form of Sovereign that humans get our petulant way in the end.
A lot of ME fans really hated Ashley Williams because she said she believed in God. Fans called her all sorts of names like fundi, bigot and god-soldier. This always seemed strange to me, because she never said what type of believer she was. She only told Shepherd she believed in a theistic god and an afterlife.
Along came Dragon Age with Leliana. Leliana is far more religiuos than Ashley Williams. She believes that God/Maker specifically ordered her to help the GW's. And while Ashley only talked about her beliefs during a single conversation it looks like the Maker is the only thing our Orlesian Bard can talk about.
Yet on these forums no one seems to hate Leliana. No one seems to care that she believes in a supreme being.
Thoughts?
Leliana explained her beliefs and came across as far more tolerant than Ashley did.
The biggest difference between Ashley and Leliana is that Ashley isn't into the girlish seductive thing. Ashley is more into guns than social skills. So Ashley gets stuck with the label "straight-laced" and is condemned as a bigott, while Leliana is sexy and therefore forgiven.
I found Ashley to be a very cool personality, both as a companion and as a romance, becuase she was a really tough woman, without being the "femme fatale" seductress type like Morrigan or Viconia. Not to mention the fact that Ashley was a soldier, so she got that label as well.
Modifié par Xandurpein, 25 décembre 2009 - 01:07 .
I hate Ashley for a variety of reasons, her religious views being only one of them. But not ''because I'm atheist lol''.
Setting does matter. Leliana is surrounded by demons, magic, magical healing prophet ashes... yeah, the existence of the Maker isn't hard to accept then, in fact it seems quite logical. It's something I would agree with if I lived in Thedas. It fits the setting.
The world of Mass Effect, on the other hand, is hardcore Sci-Fi. A race of destroying machines, of science, of other alien species. (dethroning humanity as the ''crown of creation'') Sorry Ash, but ''look out the window'' isn't going to cut it. You could use the same argument to defend that such an incredibly complex universe couldn't possibly be created by one single being; that the only explanation for such an incredibly chaotic and flawed universe is proof of the absence of any form of intelligent design.
TL:DR: I have no problem with belief in the supernatural, as long as you can back it up. Ashley is a simpleton.
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