211 réponses à ce sujet

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

I would surmise some don't like Ashley because they're intimidated by a strong woman who knows her own mind, so they judge her just because she doesn't offer her opinions weakly and fumblingly with many nervous glances at the floor.

Of course, if all else fails, throw it on the ''it's misogyny lol'' argument.

Pathetic.

Modifié par Spaghetti_Ninja, 25 décembre 2009 - 01:14 .

[The Angry One]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

TL:DR: I have no problem with belief in the supernatural, as long as you can back it up. Ashley is a simpleton.

Nonsense. The fact that magic and pan-dimensional "spiritual" beings exist in DAO does not mean belief in anything is justified. It merely adds more things that must be quantified, and quantified they can be.
Magic, dragons, darkspawn and fade beings do not equal the existance of an inscrutable, absent being who created everything. There is proof of one, there is NO proof of the other. Ashley and Leliana's beliefs are based 100% on faith, the only difference is Ashley doesn't hear voices.

[Xandurpein]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

I hate Ashley for a variety of reasons, her religious views being only one of them. But not ''because I'm atheist lol''.

Setting does matter. Leliana is surrounded by demons, magic, magical healing prophet ashes... yeah, the existence of the Maker isn't hard to accept then, in fact it seems quite logical. It's something I would agree with if I lived in Thedas. It fits the setting.

The world of Mass Effect, on the other hand, is hardcore Sci-Fi. A race of destroying machines, of science, of other alien species. (dethroning humanity as the ''crown of creation'') Sorry Ash, but ''look out the window'' isn't going to cut it. You could use the same argument to defend that such an incredibly complex universe couldn't possibly be created by one single being; that the only explanation for such an incredibly chaotic and flawed universe is proof of the absence of any form of intelligent design.

TL:DR: I have no problem with belief in the supernatural, as long as you can back it up. Ashley is a simpleton.

I am an atheist myself. I would never presume to judge people who are religeous, at least not in the very private way Ashley williams are. And to say you "hate" someone (your words) just becuase she holds a religious belief that isn't forced on anyone else makes you a bigot in my book.

[maikanix]

Wynne wrote...


I would surmise some don't like Ashley because they're intimidated by a strong woman who knows her own mind, so they judge her just because she doesn't offer her opinions weakly and fumblingly with many nervous glances at the floor.

I don't know what to say...that's a terribly wrong statement....I'm actually attracted to strong women, and I disliked Ashley because she wasn't strong, she was arrogant. there is a difference, and I would surmise that some don't understand that difference.

Wynne wrote...


What she said, in context, was "As noble as the Council members seem now, if their backs are against the wall, they'll abandon us. If you’re fighting a bear and the only way for you to survive is to
sic your dog on it and run, you’ll do it. As much as you love your dog,
it isn’t human." 

She was comparing humans to dogs. Humans. Saying the Council thought of humans as less than them, as cannon fodder. And you know what? Of those arrogant and hypocritical bastards? She was 100% on target. She even defends them afterwards by saying, "It's not racism, not really. Members of their species will always be more important to them than humans are." Way too damned nice, because if you ask me, it IS racism. I never saw anyone on my crew as being more or less important because of their species, but the Council clearly saw humans as brash children. 

I dislike Ashely because no, I WOULDN'T sick my dog on them and run. I wouldn't even think of sacrificing my a dog I loved. Not that it's not the smart thing to do, I just wouldn't do it. She's not saying that only the Council will do it, she's saying that it's a valid point because, in her mind, it makes sense to sick your dog on it and run. Sure she's saying the Council see's us as animal, but she's also saying that things that aren't human don't deserve to be treated well. She's saying that because we're human, and not asari/etc that the council will treat us as we'd treat our dog - because that is what she would do to HER dog.

The Council is wrong, but after you prove them wrong they change their mind. Sometimes I see humanity as brash children. The council really shouldn't be expected to judge the entire human race based on one small group. I mean, look at the Ambassador. I don't know. Try to see it from their point of view. They're just doing what they think is best. It's not like they didn't admit their mistake, or didn't invite you to be a Specter, or anything. They were reasonable. And as for not believing that the Reapers were back, or a threat, I think that if everyone around them is saying it's impossible, anyone would say the same.

Modifié par maikanix, 25 décembre 2009 - 01:27 .

[The Angry One]

People are so reactionary anyway.

All Ashley says is "I believe in God" and maybe a few comments about higher powers here and there. But so what? If you take the atheist option in that convo, Shep says "Do you have a problem with those who don't believe in God?" and Ashley's response is simply "No ma'am." (well, or "No sir.").

That's it, the end. Case closed. And for the record I'm an atheist, and one with a major beef against organised religion. But if one wants to personally believe in a higher power, that's their damn business. It doesn't matter if it's a medieval world of dragons and sorcerors or the year 2595 on the star battleship Overcompensator 12. It is in the end equally based on faith.

[The Angry One]

Yeah, Ashley is a bit arrogant. But then, most of the humans in ME are.

Udina's an arrogant pig. But then he's supposed to be. However, so is Anderson. Hell, so is Shepard, Paragon or Renegade. The entire plot is full of human hubris.

[Xandurpein]

maikanix wrote...

I dislike Ashely because no, I WOULDN'T sick my dog on them and run. I wouldn't even think of sacrificing my a dog I loved. Not that it's not the smart thing to do, I just wouldn't do it. She's not saying that only the Council will do it, she's saying that it's a valid point because, in her mind, it makes sense to sick your dog on it and run. Sure she's saying the Council see's us as animal, but she's also saying that things that aren't human don't deserve to be treated well. She's saying that because we're human, and not asari/etc that the council will treat us as we'd treat our dog - because that is what she would do to HER dog.

If I had a the choice of either saving ANY human being or saving my dog, I would save a total stranger over my dog any day. I would sacrifice myself to save my children, but I would sacrifice my dog to save myself. I have no real problem with Ashley's analogy.

maikanix wrote...

The Council is wrong, but after you prove them wrong they change their mind. Sometimes I see humanity as brash children. The council really shouldn't be expected to judge the entire human race based on one small group. I mean, look at the Ambassador. I don't know. Try to see it from their point of view. They're just doing what they think is best. It's not like they didn't admit their mistake, or didn't invite you to be a Specter, or anything. They were reasonable. And as for not believing that the Reapers were back, or a threat, I think that if everyone around them is saying it's impossible, anyone would say the same.

You are conveniently forgetting the fact that Ashley Williams are capable of doing exactly the same road to greater understanding that the council does, without being forced to it by arms.

[Xandurpein]

Not to mention that there is a hole in the plot in ME the size of a Battleship regarding the councils's disbelief in Shepard. Just let a team of 10 Asari biotics read Shepards memories, like Liara does and then decide if it's true or not.

[KnightofPhoenix]

maikanix wrote...
The Council is wrong, but after you prove them wrong they change their mind. Sometimes I see humanity as brash children. The council really shouldn't be expected to judge the entire human race based on one small group. I mean, look at the Ambassador. I don't know. Try to see it from their point of view. They're just doing what they think is best. It's not like they didn't admit their mistake, or didn't invite you to be a Specter, or anything. They were reasonable. And as for not believing that the Reapers were back, or a threat, I think that if everyone around them is saying it's impossible, anyone would say the same.

Humanity proves them wrong by imposing itself, and not by being nice. The Volus made galactic economy and they are still treated like dogs, because they can't impose themselves.

Whatever the outcome, humanity imposes itself on the galactic scene. I prefer the option of eliminating the council and creating a new order. Yes humanity is brash and sometimes outright blind. But it's full of passion, energy and an adventurous nature. Something that makes aliens, in their own words, fear humanity. All that humanity needs is a strong visionary leader. Perhaps one who can create the imperium of man. The fate of humanity should not be entrusted in the hands of anyone. ESpecially not an organisation that has no qualms about exterminating other species.  

And what of the Ambassador? Udina is a dedicated man who is doing the best he can for the sake of his species. Cap Anderson in fact agrees with him on almost everything and yet people don't hate him so much.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 décembre 2009 - 01:48 .

[The Angry One]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Humanity proves them wrong by imposing itself, and not by being nice. The Volus made galactic economy and they are still treated like dogs, because they can't impose themselves.

The Volus don't have the military strength; they hide behind the Turians.
For all the Council's blather about cooperation, it's all about who has the biggest guns. The Turians and Asari have the big bad ships and the Salarians have the technical know-how and the power of SCIENCE!

Humans also have their big fleets and their big guns so they get consideration over the meatballs, the elephants and the jellyfish.

And what of the Ambassador? Udina is a dedicated man who is doing the best he can for the aske of his species. Cap Anderson in fact agrees with him on almost everything and yet people don't hate him so much.

Because he's a moron who locks down the Normandy from you for no good reason other than he's the resident political a-hole.

[Xandurpein]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And what of the Ambassador? Udina is a dedicated man who is doing the best he can for the aske of his species. Cap Anderson in fact agrees with him on almost everything and yet people don't hate him so much.

The problem I have with Undina is that ultimately he treats Shepard as a tool to achieve power for himself and humanity. When Shepard's ideas about the Reapers no longer are convenient to Undina, he stops listening. Anderson believes in you and risks his own power and rank to help you.

[The Angry One]

Xandurpein wrote...

Not to mention that there is a hole in the plot in ME the size of a Battleship regarding the councils's disbelief in Shepard. Just let a team of 10 Asari biotics read Shepards memories, like Liara does and then decide if it's true or not.

Well there are a lot of plotholes with regards to that.
Take, say, the first council meeting where Saren is sending a hologram transmission.

Duur gee, how do we know if Saren is involved with the Geth? WHY DON'T YOU TAKE A LOOK AT HIM YOU MORONS, HE HAS A GETH ARM ATTACHED TO HIS TORSO. HAVE HIM EXPLAIN THAT ONE!

[The Angry One]

Xandurpein wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And what of the Ambassador? Udina is a dedicated man who is doing the best he can for the aske of his species. Cap Anderson in fact agrees with him on almost everything and yet people don't hate him so much.

The problem I have with Undina is that ultimately he treats Shepard as a tool to achieve power for himself and humanity. When Shepard's ideas about the Reapers no longer are convenient to Undina, he stops listening. Anderson believes in you and risks his own power and rank to help you.

It's so stupid that he backstabs you in the first place. Everything you've done has benefitted him and his goals, why drop an anvil on you just because you're going on about the Reapers?
Either your wrong, but Saren still needs to die, or you're right and you can make humans look even better (which is what happened).
Why was this guy even an option to name as a Council member/1st Emperor of the Glorious Human Empire!
Even a Renegade wouldn't put him up. Hell, especially not a Renegade. A Renegade would shoot him in the head.

[Krigwin]

No one simply disliked Ashley because she was religious, people disliked her because she was a racist xenophobic simple-minded bigot with no personality.

Ashley, despite being religious, which I'm told is supposed to teach you tolerance and understanding, was close-minded to pretty much everyone and thought humans, by virtue of her being born a human, were the best. If she was a turian and had the same attitude no one would have a second thought with casting her as a villain, but since we're humans too I guess we're just supposed to identify with the racist. That and the fact that the entire game is like one big propaganda smackdown of humans (and by humans, I of course really mean Americans) saving the day because apparently other races with starfleets and ion technology are incapable of thinking for themselves.

Then there's the other stuff, like the fact that she had no personality and never grew anywhere as a character (and I did her romance and everything), which is sad even for Mass Effect. Or the fact that she was really very simple-minded and oftentimes childish in her thinking ("hurr I'm a soldier hurr don't let me try to think for myself Shepard!") despite her rank and combat experience.

I actually think it's the other way around - that people defend Ashley simply because she is religious. If Ashley never revealed anything about her religious beliefs at all, I believe people would just think she's inexplicably close-minded and dismiss her entirely, or else try to justify her close-mindedness by virtue of her being a uneducated and inexperienced (by galaxy standards) grunt, but that tidbit about religion adds a certain "southern charm" to her that makes people more forgiving. It's seen right here in this very topic, being religious apparently gives you some kind of shield to criticism where anyone who questions any other aspect of your personality is automatically being judgemental and hypocritical, and it's disgusting.

It also has to do with the fact that she's a woman too, if her and Kaiden switched places, not only would no one be trying this "you just don't like her because she's a strong, independent woman and you're sexist!" crap, but Kaiden would be seen as like, the best character ever.

Leliana on the other hand, who not only sprinkles her (extremely liberal for the setting) religious beliefs with a nice dose of amusing crazy, actually seems to practice the tenets of her religion - faith, tolerance, peace and love, etc. She's never confrontational about it (except with Morrigan, but Morrigan is just a confrontation waiting to happen) and actuallys show a depth of objective, intelligent doubt despite her apparent faith. She's happy and compassionate, uses her religion to better herself, accepts that her beliefs are questionable and that fellow practitioners are wrong, and is never condescending or confrontational in regards to her faith? That's the ideal religious nut. Then you add the other stuff like the fact that her romance is much more rewarding. And the lesbian part. And the sexy accent part.

And finally of course we have to factor in the settings of the games. In ME it's ultra futuristic (and I'm kind of disappointed religion is still around in the hyper-future) and Ashley is kind of seen as clinging on to ancient, outdated beliefs, whereas in DA:O we have some questionable evidence that supports the validity of the Maker's existence or at least some parts of Chantry beliefs (Black City, Darkspawn, the Urn, etc), and the people are much more religious in general, being in a time where crusades still take place. It's far more "normal" for a DA:O character to be religious than for a ME character I guess, since we're just forced to assume scientific education has advanced in leaps in the time of ME.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Humanity proves them wrong by imposing itself, and not by being nice. The Volus made galactic economy and they are still treated like dogs, because they can't impose themselves.

The Volus don't have the military strength; they hide behind the Turians.
For all the Council's blather about cooperation, it's all about who has the biggest guns. The Turians and Asari have the big bad ships and the Salarians have the technical know-how and the power of SCIENCE!

Humans also have their big fleets and their big guns so they get consideration over the meatballs, the elephants and the jellyfish.

Exactly.
And the impressive thing about humanity is that the Citadel forbade it to have a fleet that is larger than 1/5 of the Turian military. And yet it still kicked everyone's ass.

But the reason why I wouldn't trust the Council is because it is built on a trinity. Turians are the muscles. The Asari are the diplomatic (aka manipulative) race, in fact the Asari seem to be the dominant force. The Salarians are the tegnological brains. They complement each other perfectly. Where does humanity fit in all this? Does the Council REALLY need humanity? What's to stop them from destroying us like they did with the Krogans?

That's why I wouldn't want humanity to be part of the council. Rather, I would want it to form its own council, with new allies that can replace the old timers. Now if I as in that universe, what I would do is:
- Secure an alliance with the Volus. They have been under-represented for too long, so we give them some power. In exchange, we have their economic backing.
- Secure an alliance with the Quarrians. The Citadel boycotted those poor things. Humanity can help them with ressources and the like, and military aid against the Geth. In exchange, we get their technological know-how that might alleviate our dependence on the Salarians.
- Develop a cure for the genophage, albeit not a perfect one. It will increase fertility rates, but not too much. And only humanity can supply it. So the Krogans basically become addicted to our cure. In exchange, we make them our military muscle, in order to replace the Turrians.

Humanity doesn't need the Asari, Salarians or Turrians. Nor do they need us. But the "smaller" races need one or the other. And since the Council has been acting like the big ****** of the galaxy, humanity can be the replacement.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 décembre 2009 - 02:05 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And what of the Ambassador? Udina is a dedicated man who is doing the best he can for the aske of his species. Cap Anderson in fact agrees with him on almost everything and yet people don't hate him so much.

The problem I have with Undina is that ultimately he treats Shepard as a tool to achieve power for himself and humanity. When Shepard's ideas about the Reapers no longer are convenient to Undina, he stops listening. Anderson believes in you and risks his own power and rank to help you.

It's so stupid that he backstabs you in the first place. Everything you've done has benefitted him and his goals, why drop an anvil on you just because you're going on about the Reapers?
Either your wrong, but Saren still needs to die, or you're right and you can make humans look even better (which is what happened).
Why was this guy even an option to name as a Council member/1st Emperor of the Glorious Human Empire!
Even a Renegade wouldn't put him up. Hell, especially not a Renegade. A Renegade would shoot him in the head.

He admitted he was wrong and praised Anderson for punching him. But the "evidence" we had about the reapers were very slim.

I put Udina as the human chairman. The last thing we need is a military guy handling politics.

[The Angry One]

To be fair the human fleet won by sheer numbers, going splat against Sovereign till it died the death of a thousand cuts.



As for Udina, yeah he admitted he was wrong after you basically save the universe but he's still an arse and I don't like him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...

To be fair the human fleet won by sheer numbers, going splat against Sovereign till it died the death of a thousand cuts.

As for Udina, yeah he admitted he was wrong after you basically save the universe but he's still an arse and I don't like him.

I dont know about the numbers, but I think the citadel defense fleet was larger than the Arcturus fleet. At least that's how it should be.

And it was the Geth fleet that did most of the killing and not Sovereign. He went straight for the Citadel. So here you have the entire citadel defense fleet plus its flagship ravaged by the Geth. Tada, humanity to the rescue. The human fleet can potentially destroy both the Geth and Sovereign. That makes humanity >>> aliens, almost in a ridiculous way (who cares, it's canon). Aren't we badass or what?!   
I am going to watch the cutscenes on youtube now.

[The Angry One]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

To be fair the human fleet won by sheer numbers, going splat against Sovereign till it died the death of a thousand cuts.

As for Udina, yeah he admitted he was wrong after you basically save the universe but he's still an arse and I don't like him.

I dont know about the numbers, but I think the citadel defense fleet was larger than the Arcturus fleet. At least that's how it should be.

And it was the Geth fleet that did most of the killing and not Sovereign. He went straight for the Citadel. So here you have the entire citadel defense fleet plus its flagship ravaged by the Geth. Tada, humanity to the rescue. The human fleet can potentially destroy both the Geth and Sovereign. That makes humanity >>> aliens, almost in a ridiculous way (who cares, it's canon). Aren't we badass or what?!   
I am going to watch the cutscenes on youtube now.

True but then I think the Citadel fleet was fighting Sovereign + Geth for a while before the Alliance showed up.
If you choose to save the Ascension the human ships start getting blown up by Geth almost immediately too, which struck me as a bit odd.
Later inside the Citadel arms Sovereign keeps lazoring ships and it looks like at least one human ship went and rammed the thing.
Though yes it was basically a "Humans! Rar!" event. Say I wonder if Shep's mom was on one of those ships (Spacer origin). Would've been funny. Mom: "Oh hello dear! *KABOOM!" Shep: "Oh well easy come easy go."

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...
True but then I think the Citadel fleet was fighting Sovereign + Geth for a while before the Alliance showed up.
If you choose to save the Ascension the human ships start getting blown up by Geth almost immediately too, which struck me as a bit odd.
Later inside the Citadel arms Sovereign keeps lazoring ships and it looks like at least one human ship went and rammed the thing.
Though yes it was basically a "Humans! Rar!" event. Say I wonder if Shep's mom was on one of those ships (Spacer origin). Would've been funny. Mom: "Oh hello dear! *KABOOM!" Shep: "Oh well easy come easy go."

Yea, I HATE it when spaceships get destroyed by one hit. But I think it was the angle of attack. The fifth fleet attacked from above (typically human). Perhaps the Geth were focusing their shields at the front.

I think he / she would have been: "Let my mom's ship die".

[The Angry One]

The funny thing is there was some miscommunication between the BioWare writers and the cutscene staff for these scenes so everything we see might not be entirely canon.

The energy bolts the ships fire early on seem a little slow and, well, crap. I think their weapons are supposed to be more along the lines of the Normandy's finisher on Sovereign.

Oh well, it was still cool.

[dirtywick]

The Angry One wrote...

People are so reactionary anyway.
All Ashley says is "I believe in God" and maybe a few comments about higher powers here and there. But so what? If you take the atheist option in that convo, Shep says "Do you have a problem with those who don't believe in God?" and Ashley's response is simply "No ma'am." (well, or "No sir.").
That's it, the end. Case closed. And for the record I'm an atheist, and one with a major beef against organised religion. But if one wants to personally believe in a higher power, that's their damn business. It doesn't matter if it's a medieval world of dragons and sorcerors or the year 2595 on the star battleship Overcompensator 12. It is in the end equally based on faith.

A setting where a God or Gods demonstrably exist wouldn't be a matter of faith.  Of course that doesn't apply either to Dragon Age or Mass Effect.

I think the reason people have a bigger beef with Ashley is in a fantasy medieval setting one expects ignorance or even the existence of some kind of God.  Not so in a modern reality based Sci Fi.  That's there basically as much evidence of the Maker and the God Ashley believes in doesn't matter because people's standards for evidence for something purposefully fake is much lower than something that's supposed to be quasi real.

[ozsras]

I disliked Ashely for many reasons but her religious beliefs were not one of them.



You are a solider Ashely, if you feel uncomfortable or dislike my way of command - send in a report and ask to be left at the nearest human colony. Or whatever. But questioning my command doesn't endear you to me so either shut up or leave. Also, these aliens that you dislike? Are the only ones who can save your ass when the **** hits the fan. So just remember that.



Leliana is different. She isn't pushy with her beliefs, admits that the Chantry and their folk can be just as arrogant and self serving as anyone else in the Theadas world (which is quite liberal). She's funny, kind and generally just wants to save the world from the blight - the fact that she had a vision that the Maker told her to is no concern of mine. So yeah I like her tons better than Ashley.

[SnakeStrike8]

Really, all this talk about how 'omg! Humans should run the council because we're so AWESOME!' really gets to me.

We're not awesome. We have a pathetically tiny space fleet that's never fought a major war, we have infantry that can't handle trench warfare, and our intelligence network is crap. The only reason we received acceptance at the end of the game was because Hackett decided to hide his fleet out in the middle of nowhere and wait until the Council fleet and the geth had finished gutting each other BEFORE bringing in the human ships to finish the job.

Frankly, I'm more surprised that no-one called the humans up on that.

[Squiggles1334]

The Angry One wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And what of the Ambassador? Udina is a dedicated man who is doing the best he can for the aske of his species. Cap Anderson in fact agrees with him on almost everything and yet people don't hate him so much.

The problem I have with Undina is that ultimately he treats Shepard as a tool to achieve power for himself and humanity. When Shepard's ideas about the Reapers no longer are convenient to Undina, he stops listening. Anderson believes in you and risks his own power and rank to help you.

It's so stupid that he backstabs you in the first place. Everything you've done has benefitted him and his goals, why drop an anvil on you just because you're going on about the Reapers?
Either your wrong, but Saren still needs to die, or you're right and you can make humans look even better (which is what happened).
Why was this guy even an option to name as a Council member/1st Emperor of the Glorious Human Empire!
Even a Renegade wouldn't put him up. Hell, especially not a Renegade. A Renegade would shoot him in the head.

I'd like to think the logical reason to nominate Udina for Council seat is so that in ME2, I can continue to mouth off at the Council then cut them off in the middle of each post-mission debriefing and not feel bad about doing it to my superior officer who stood up for me when nobody else would.

Buuuuuuut I nominated Anderson anyway.