211 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

Chairchucker wrote...

With regards to Ashley, I never really saw her as being xenophobic, as such. I saw her animosity towards certain alien races as comparable to the animosity held by Irish, Scottish and Welsh people towards British people; that is it say, motivated by the memory of being invaded, enslaved and slaughtered for the previous couple of centuries.

Exactly. People keep missing the point that the "races" in ME aren't just races, but political entities, star-faring nations. There are no Asari, Quarian or whatever race that is a citizen of the Alliance, mentioned in the gane. At best we belong to the same coalition or bloc like the EU.

[Statulos]

Xandurpein wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

There are no atheists in a foxhole.

Very true.

What I DON'T like about her is she keeps questioning me about my alien comrades. Screw you woman, they, unlike you, provide awesome biotic and engineering powers. I can provide the pew pew for myself thank you very muchly.

She is concerned by military security. They are not just alien comrades, they are people from different nations, that could be interested in stealing the latest human hi-tech inventions. That she raises the question is in my mind perfectly normal and a reasonable thing to do for any concientous officer. She does not make an issue of it though, just alert you to the percieved danger. You can defend your alien crewmen and it won't even break the romance, unless you are rude about it. I know enough of how different nations on Earth today try to steal military technology from each other to know that Ashley's reactions does not have to signify any xenophobia or racism.

The one time that she was out of line was with Liara, but then she was jealous so I put it down to that. I really liked Tali a lot, but come on. Have an alien from a different interstellar nation poke around your secret super-hi-tech drive core, when she herself confessed that she need to bring something valuable back home to be accepted. Is it so bad for Ashley to even bring up the notion that maybe this wasn't such a bright idea...

The Normandy is already "stolen": it´s a human-turian designed vessel.

[Xandurpein]

Statulos wrote...

The Normandy is already "stolen": it´s a human-turian designed vessel.

That would only matter at all if Tali was a Turian. Even if technology is stolen, copied or whatever, every nation wants to keep it secret exactly how advanced your latest military hardware is. Trust me on this one as I have some insight on how that works in real life. Even revealing exactly what we have stolen from whom can be a subject for military secrecy. It all bolis down to this simple fact that the more I know about the specifics of a specific nations military hardware, the easier it is for me to design a counter-measure. Hence everyone wants to keep their military hardware as secret as possible. And don't kid yourself for a second that this doesn't apply to countries in the same coalition like Nato or EU. Even if two countries in the EU would never contemplate using their arms against each other, they can still potentially be competitors for selling arms to a third country.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 25 décembre 2009 - 07:07 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

I had 0 objections to anything Leli or Ash said or thought.

I like me both.

[Statulos]

Xandurpein wrote...

Statulos wrote...

The Normandy is already "stolen": it´s a human-turian designed vessel.

That would only matter at all if Tali was a Turian. Even if technology is stolen, copied or whatever, every nation wants to keep it secret exactly how advanced your latest military hardware is. Trust me on this one as I have some insight on how that works in real life. Even revealing exactly what we have stolen from whom can be a subject for military secrecy. It all bolis down to this simple fact that the more I know about the specifics of a specific nations military hardware, the easier it is for me to design a counter-measure. Hence everyone wants to keep their military hardware as secret as possible. And don't kid yourself for a second that this doesn't apply to countries in the same coalition like Nato or EU. Even if two countries in the EU would never contemplate using their arms against each other, they can still potentially be competitors for selling arms to a third country.

Fine: Tali gets everything blue-printed. Quarians will not be able to replicate it due to lack of money and infraestructure to do so. I mean, if they can hardly keep their pieces of junk navigating, don´t even imagine replicating a state-of-the-art vessel. 
Selling it to non represented races? Seems like the only ones with power, money and infraestructure are represented in the council so they actually know how the Normandy is. If others replicated the Normandy, tracking the leak to te quarians is incredibly easy and a standard military fleet would crush to dust the quarian flotilla.

[The Angry One]

Heh the Normandy is human-Turian designed to the point the damn thing resembles Turian ships more than Alliance (to the point that the first time I played I thought the Ascension's escorts were human ships) and yet there's not a single Turian engineer on board?

What did the Alliance do? Go "Well guys thanks for the help in desiging our new frigate but now it's MINE MINE MINE GO GO GO DOWN DOWN DOWN.".

And I'm reeeeeally going to believe the Council is going to co-fund and the Turians are going to co-design a super brand new ultra-drive core uber ship and just give it to the humans with no catch.



And the humans have the gall to complain about their lot in Citadel politics! That's the problem with making one child favored over the others, they become spoiled brats.

[AiTenshi1]

Lelianna is seeking redemption for her past behavior and was welcomed by the Chantry. Ashley does not have that type of motivating factor at a personal level.



I like Lelianna and don't like Ashley, but my preference is due to overall personality traits and skills rather than simply life philosophy (although that is one part of the whole, of course).

[Xandurpein]

The Angry One wrote...

Heh the Normandy is human-Turian designed to the point the damn thing resembles Turian ships more than Alliance (to the point that the first time I played I thought the Ascension's escorts were human ships) and yet there's not a single Turian engineer on board?
What did the Alliance do? Go "Well guys thanks for the help in desiging our new frigate but now it's MINE MINE MINE GO GO GO DOWN DOWN DOWN.".
And I'm reeeeeally going to believe the Council is going to co-fund and the Turians are going to co-design a super brand new ultra-drive core uber ship and just give it to the humans with no catch.

Well... all I can say is that this is EXACTLY how things work with military hardware today on Earth. I see no reason whatsoever to belive we will change in space. There is simply too many things that can assisst an enemy if they know exactly how this or that gadget has been tweaked. I don't expect it to be obvious for those who don't know anything about military electronics, but it's true. It's not many years the soviet Union did everything they could to stop the west from knowing the details of weaponry that was built from blueprints originally stolen from the West. It's just the way things work.

[Xandurpein]

Statulos wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Statulos wrote...

The Normandy is already "stolen": it´s a human-turian designed vessel.

That would only matter at all if Tali was a Turian. Even if technology is stolen, copied or whatever, every nation wants to keep it secret exactly how advanced your latest military hardware is. Trust me on this one as I have some insight on how that works in real life. Even revealing exactly what we have stolen from whom can be a subject for military secrecy. It all bolis down to this simple fact that the more I know about the specifics of a specific nations military hardware, the easier it is for me to design a counter-measure. Hence everyone wants to keep their military hardware as secret as possible. And don't kid yourself for a second that this doesn't apply to countries in the same coalition like Nato or EU. Even if two countries in the EU would never contemplate using their arms against each other, they can still potentially be competitors for selling arms to a third country.

Fine: Tali gets everything blue-printed. Quarians will not be able to replicate it due to lack of money and infraestructure to do so. I mean, if they can hardly keep their pieces of junk navigating, don´t even imagine replicating a state-of-the-art vessel. 
Selling it to non represented races? Seems like the only ones with power, money and infraestructure are represented in the council so they actually know how the Normandy is. If others replicated the Normandy, tracking the leak to te quarians is incredibly easy and a standard military fleet would crush to dust the quarian flotilla.

No, your reasons are faulty. There is simply no way the council will agree to whiping out an entire race just becuase it can be proved they stole a blueprint. Hi-tech secrets get stolen everyday and there is very seldom anything done about it, simply becuase there is no way to do anything reasonable about it. You can't go to war with a country over a case of espionage. It's simply totally out of proportion to the crime, and short of going to war there isn't a whole lot to do about it. Trust me on this one. Military secrets get stolen from USA (who has the greatest military power in the world now) and very little is done about it, because there is simply no effective way to stop it, other than beefing up security and pray. They can't take it to court if the perpetrators get out of country, and they can't go to war over it.

[SnakeStrike8]

Xandurpein wrote...


She is concerned by military security. They are not just alien comrades, they are people from different nations,

Excapt that the Normandy isn't a human innovation. It was built in conjuction with the Turians, and you can bet anything the Turies keep copies of the blueprints locked away somewhere.
Besides, this really doesn't matter. Human foolishness being what it is, I'll bet that the Alliance navy contracted out to some mongrel for-profit corporation to build the thing, which means they have plans of it too. Who else here thinks the Salarians will sneak an STG into the corporation in question's headquarters and steal the tech anyway?

[Xandurpein]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...


She is concerned by military security. They are not just alien comrades, they are people from different nations,

Excapt that the Normandy isn't a human innovation. It was built in conjuction with the Turians, and you can bet anything the Turies keep copies of the blueprints locked away somewhere.
Besides, this really doesn't matter. Human foolishness being what it is, I'll bet that the Alliance navy contracted out to some mongrel for-profit corporation to build the thing, which means they have plans of it too. Who else here thinks the Salarians will sneak an STG into the corporation in question's headquarters and steal the tech anyway?

Oh well... I have already answered this one a few times, so I guess it's no point in doing it again. all I can say is that you know very little about the realities concerning military hardware technology and secrecy. Let me try to explain how it works in the real world.

My country (Sweden) has bought tanks made in Germany, where the manufacturer put US made things in too. It would still be a matter of military secrecy if anyone from Germany, US or any other place wanted to look inside them, not to mention fiddle with them. There is still enough tweaks, modifications and especially settings for various electronics for it to be a matter of secrecy. And we are even in the same political faction as Germany (members of EU). You are entitled to think what you like about it, but this IS how it works today and I have little doubt it will work like that in the future.

In all likelyhood the alliance would be hit with serious fines if they through carelessness leaked sensitive Turian technology to the quarians. Since the Turians no longer could charge money for selling the technology to the quarians.

[FlintlockJazz]

Chairchucker wrote...

With regards to Ashley, I never really saw her as being xenophobic, as such. I saw her animosity towards certain alien races as comparable to the animosity held by Irish, Scottish and Welsh people towards British people; that is it say, motivated by the memory of being invaded, enslaved and slaughtered for the previous couple of centuries.

You know, you are being rather antagonistic and **** stirring with that, but I'll just leave it at that.

[ozenglish]

I mainly think it is because of this.



Mass Effect shows human society more how it is now, a technologically adept society, that is figuring out that the big forgetful old father figure, may or may have been a bed time story to make kids behave themselves, and then Ashley comes out and says she believes in it, and boom, everyone hates her because they feel that she is clinging on to some bygone thought process when we all know that technocracy is the new religion just around the corner.



With Leliana, we see that it is obviously set in a medieaval word, just one dimension or two off of ours, where magic exists. We know that medieaval people, in our current view, were superstitious, and that those who held out for science, were labelled as heathens.



I just think that the hate is being dished out because we all see ourselves either slipping if you are religious so you hate that in yourself, or if you aren't religious, you are waiting for all the superstitious folk to grow up.



*disclaimer* This is just a theoretical viewpoint. The author of this viewpoint may or may not agree with the viewpoint that religious people are superstitious, or that technomancers are going to be the next big thing to hit earth, but really, it just an explaination. Please forward all mssgs to somewhere else in the universe, as the author is too old and grumpy to care LOL*

[Krigwin]

Xandurpein wrote...
Well... all I can say is that this is EXACTLY how things work with military hardware today on Earth. I see no reason whatsoever to belive we will change in space. There is simply too many things that can assisst an enemy if they know exactly how this or that gadget has been tweaked. I don't expect it to be obvious for those who don't know anything about military electronics, but it's true. It's not many years the soviet Union did everything they could to stop the west from knowing the details of weaponry that was built from blueprints originally stolen from the West. It's just the way things work.

Except none of your squad is an enemy. It's already been gone over why Tali and the Quarians are not a threat, and I don't think Tali has it in her to betray you especially given that you basically become her BFF. Same with Wrex, and both Garrus and Liara, and they're even Council races too so no problem there. There is no basis at all for distrusting any of your allies, and in fact the least trustworthy squad member you have isn't even Tali, but rather Garrus, given his all-too-timely arrival and seemingly too perfect motivations for hunting Saren, and especially the way Turians are represented to you within the entire game.

The problem with this close-minded attitude is it's xenophobia and baseless paranoia, masking as protective military concern. I have no problems with having potential spies creep around the Normandy because if anyone betrays me, I know exactly who they are and where they're going, and they're no real threat in the face of my real enemy. You try to speak as if you understand militaristic thinking, so the concept of triage should not be foreign to you - when we're fighting a war against a legion of sentient starships that want to annihilate all organics, I don't have time to worry about who can potentially betray me and become a minor economic annoyance to my species decades down the line, so shut up Ashley.

You're right in that in the universe of ME, the alien races are more akin to rival political entities rather than actual foreign species, and that is exactly the reason why it is xenophobia. The real reason why Ashley distrusts all the aliens isn't because she's looking out for humanity (and btw, there are far better ways of doing that then "beware the alien, the mutant, the heretic" etc), it's because of her close-minded "everyone is against us" belief. This kind of backwoods, primitive fear has no place in even modern society, so it definitely has no place in the ultra-future of ME especially given that humans are apparently the unwanted, weird new kid on the playground while the Turians are like the cool clique that runs the school.

Let me put it this way. Here is how Ashley would think if she was really a combat-hardened patriot looking out for the human race:
"The aliens are great, but we're both humans Shepard. I think we should help them as much as we can and listen to the Council, but only because it furthers our own standing and strengthens us in their eyes. They should be dealt with only as long as it ends in mutual benefit. If an opportunity comes along where we can put ourselves first and improve our position, I think we should take it, but until then we need to tread carefully and cooperate as much as possible so as not to hurt our chances and prestige."

Here is how she actually thinks in the game:
"The aliens can't be trusted, because they're aliens. I don't think they should be on the Normandy. The Council sucks too, because they're aliens. The only reason why being an alien is bad is because I'm not an alien, and they're different from me so they can't be trusted. Did I mention the Council sucks? We can't trust any of them and if we get the chance I think we should forget them all, humans first! I haven't really put any real thought into this, you should just agree with me because you're also a human. Also, dog analogy."

As a final point, imagine if Ashley was a Turian, with the exact same personality and thoughts in the game. As in, she doesn't trust you because you're not a Turian, and she doesn't think any other race should be allowed aboard the Normandy, and that if given the chance she would allow the humans to die to better the Turians. No one would have any problem at all thinking of her as an enemy, after all we're humans and she's a Turian and they can't be trusted, right? But since Ashley is a human, apparently we're just supposed to blindly identify and agree with her. That's garbage, and her kind of xenophobia isn't acceptable regardless of her species or circumstances.

[Sumix101]

I not sure about this but I recall someone in Mass Effect saying that it was designed by the Turians (i.e. the hull and layout is their design) and the Tech was from Humans (Drive Core, Stealth Systems are made by humans). I'm don't remember were exactly so don't hold me to that.
I remember a thread a while ago in the ME forums with people wheather Ash was a racist or not. Then one of the Devs came in and said that everyone who said she was racist took everything out of context.
For example the "I can't tell the aliens" thing the dev adimitted that was a mistake to put in because of how many people took it out of context. It was meant to show how different intelligent lifeforms looked completly different. Then he put this picture up http://astropt.org/b...11/eosapian.jpg and asked is it was sapient alien or a simple animal (It was sapient).

http://meforums.biow...&forum=123&sp=0 Here the thread.

[TypoPanther]

The Angry One wrote...

Why not? Maybe humans aren't the ultimate saviors of the universem ever consider that?

I think the idea that we must "relate" to the main character for it to be a meaningful experience is fairly persistant. In Mass Effect you are the best humanity has to offer, and you save the universe. In Avatar, it's Mr. Sully who rallies the Na'vi instead of one of the Na'vi, etc. etc.

I think it's not giving much resect to the ability of audiences to relate. I mean, I personally think that the Mass Effect universe could exist just fine without humans. But that would perhaps be more risky than any issues of sexuality or religion etc.

[Fudzie]

Of all of the characters in Mass Effect and Dragon Age, the only character I hate - and I mean, really hate - is Liara.

Why? Is it because of her outwardly stupid, swooning behavior? Is it because she's incredibly young and socially incompetent? Is it the fact that she's blue?

No.

Because that woman is an even worse, more sinister seductress and snake than Lelianna and Morrigan, combined, could ever be. She plays stupid and childish and inept, but that's only a front so she can get what she wants from you; your brain.

Ever noticed that even when you say "don't probe my brain" in-game, you're still forced to let her probe it anyway?

You've been raped, Shepard. Several times.

By the schoolgirl klutz.

Modifié par Fudzie, 26 décembre 2009 - 06:46 .

[SilkyChicken]

Fudzie wrote...

Of all of the characters in Mass Effect and Dragon Age, the only character I hate - and I mean, really hate - is Liara.

Why? Is it because of her outwardly stupid, swooning behavior? Is it because she's incredibly young and socially incompetent? Is it the fact that she's blue?

No.

Because that woman is an even worse, more sinister seductress and snake than Lelianna and Morrigan, combined, could ever be. She plays stupid and childish and inept, but that's only a front so she can get what she wants from you; your brain.

Ever noticed that even when you say "don't probe my brain" in-game, you're still forced to let her probe it anyway?

You've been raped, Shepard. Several times.

By the schoolgirl klutz.

DUDE I KNOW!!  After I found out that the blueberries reproduce by mind-f*cking people, I was like "wait, she's already done that to my guy 3 times!"  I was totally pissed I couldn't leave her on some lifeless planet to die.

MY MIND IS MY OWN, ALIEN!  MY OWN!

[Fudzie]

It's decided then. Liara must die.

[Apophis2412]

Any problems with the DAO religion in general? Are some of you perhaps angry with the Chantry and their exalted marches? Or is it hard, for some, to roleplay an atheist/agnostic in this game?

Modifié par Apophis2412, 26 décembre 2009 - 08:48 .

[Esternogligen]

Ashley's a redneck and a b**** without Lel or Morrigan's accent.

Ashley = fail

[JaegerBane]

Apophis2412 wrote...

Any problems with the DAO religion in general? Are some of you perhaps angry with the Chantry and their exalted marches? Or is it hard, for some, to roleplay an atheist/agnostic in this game?

The Exalted Marches are to all intents and purposes, indefencible. Simply deciding to invade whoever the enemy of the week is as dictated by the Chantry's current head lunatic is ridiculous.

The thing with the Chantry is that by and large, the actual people who are part of the chantry are not true bible bashers. I was genuinely surprised to see Gregior's reaction when Jowan turned up to explain about the end of the demonic infestation. Instead of deciding to murder everyone, he simply breathes a sigh of relief, congratulates the Warden and Jowan and tells whiny little Cullen to man up and shut up.

[Xandurpein]

Krigwin wrote...

Except none of your squad is an enemy. It's already been gone over why Tali and the Quarians are not a threat, and I don't think Tali has it in her to betray you especially given that you basically become her BFF. Same with Wrex, and both Garrus and Liara, and they're even Council races too so no problem there. There is no basis at all for distrusting any of your allies, and in fact the least trustworthy squad member you have isn't even Tali, but rather Garrus, given his all-too-timely arrival and seemingly too perfect motivations for hunting Saren, and especially the way Turians are represented to you within the entire game.

You are presuming that the council races is basically the same nation/union and anyone keeping secrets from another council race is a closeminded xenophobe. I assume the concil races are more akin to the present day European Union. Certainly they cooperate, but each race is a soveriegn nation with separate national interests. Certainly there is a lot of secrecy between the varius military forces of the nations of the EU, if nothing else for fear of letting competitors gain economic advantage from stealing ideas.

The problem with this close-minded attitude is it's xenophobia and baseless paranoia, masking as protective military concern. I have no problems with having potential spies creep around the Normandy because if anyone betrays me, I know exactly who they are and where they're going, and they're no real threat in the face of my real enemy.

I am assuming that you have little if any experience of actually work in an evironment under military secrecy. The basic idea is however that it is uninteresting to be able to punish whoever did it. The idea is to stop it before it happens, and keeping spies out generally does the job best.

You try to speak as if you understand militaristic thinking, so the concept of triage should not be foreign to you - when we're fighting a war against a legion of sentient starships that want to annihilate all organics, I don't have time to worry about who can potentially betray me and become a minor economic annoyance to my species decades down the line, so shut up Ashley.

I agree that ultimately stopping the Reapers is a much bigger concern than national interests, but most of Ashley's concern about aliens is voiced in the beginning of th game, when the Reapers isn't even an issue. You can't hold things against Ashley just because you know in advance this is about the fate of the universe. Nor does Ashley press the point. She just says "is this ok from a security perspective?" you say it is, and she let's it go.

The real reason why Ashley distrusts all the aliens isn't because she's looking out for humanity (and btw, there are far better ways of doing that then "beware the alien, the mutant, the heretic" etc), it's because of her close-minded "everyone is against us" belief. This kind of backwoods, primitive fear has no place in even modern society, so it definitely has no place in the ultra-future of ME especially given that humans are apparently the unwanted, weird new kid on the playground while the Turians are like the cool clique that runs the school.

Now you had me confused. First you say Ashley is wrong because she has an "everyone is against us" belief, and then you say that everyone is in fact against us as we are the "weird new kid on the playground". So everyone is looking down on humans, but Ashley is wrong for believing so...?

Let me put it this way. Here is how Ashley would think if she was really a combat-hardened patriot looking out for the human race:
"The aliens are great, but we're both humans Shepard. I think we should help them as much as we can and listen to the Council, but only because it furthers our own standing and strengthens us in their eyes. They should be dealt with only as long as it ends in mutual benefit. If an opportunity comes along where we can put ourselves first and improve our position, I think we should take it, but until then we need to tread carefully and cooperate as much as possible so as not to hurt our chances and prestige."

Here is how she actually thinks in the game:
"The aliens can't be trusted, because they're aliens. I don't think they should be on the Normandy. The Council sucks too, because they're aliens. The only reason why being an alien is bad is because I'm not an alien, and they're different from me so they can't be trusted. Did I mention the Council sucks? We can't trust any of them and if we get the chance I think we should forget them all, humans first! I haven't really put any real thought into this, you should just agree with me because you're also a human. Also, dog analogy."

Hmm... you just read a load of stuff into what Ashley says and does that I don't see. So your analysis of what Ashley says is no more than your personal opinion. As such I want to see a shred of evidene why I would belive that your analysis of what Ashley means when she says, is true. You can't put the fact that she thinks the council sucks to xenophobia. The council DID suck. They totally ignored the Reaper threat until Soveriegn started blazing at the citadel. I thought the council sucked then.

As a final point, imagine if Ashley was a Turian, with the exact same personality and thoughts in the game. As in, she doesn't trust you because you're not a Turian, and she doesn't think any other race should be allowed aboard the Normandy, and that if given the chance she would allow the humans to die to better the Turians. No one would have any problem at all thinking of her as an enemy, after all we're humans and she's a Turian and they can't be trusted, right? But since Ashley is a human, apparently we're just supposed to blindly identify and agree with her. That's garbage, and her kind of xenophobia isn't acceptable regardless of her species or circumstances.

Well... Wrex almost started a shooting war with me, because he thought Krogan's concerns with the Genophage was more important than Saren, until I managed to talk him out of it. I could still very much identify with him. So I cannot see your point.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 26 décembre 2009 - 12:19 .

[Squiggles1334]

One thing that kinda disappoints me in settings like Mass Effect is that each alien race typically comprises one single unified political type of entity. Are these other races so culturally enlightened that they've all unified to present one single voice and perspective? Or do we simply not give them enough credit that, especially back on their homeworlds, each single race can potentially have just as many divisions and disagreements on things ranging from culture and religion to philosophy and matters of governance as humans do? Is it simply too daunting for developers to create a diverse host of cultural, national, and political identities within each individual alien race? What if Turians had their own analogues of Labour Party, Tories, Republicans, Democrats, EU, monarchies, oligarchies, anarchist collectives, etc.?

It is definitely something I have pondered before.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and for all those folks who seemed to take issue with Ashley's rather primitive perspective on God existing because of the "Just look out the window!" argument, yeah. Maybe she could've given a fancier articulate syllogism on why an ordered functioning universe producing intelligent life necessitates premeditated design or some bullcrap, but why should this be expected of her? She got her master's in shooting things, not navel-gazing.

Modifié par Squiggles1334, 26 décembre 2009 - 11:46 .

[Xandurpein]

Squiggles1334 wrote...

EDIT: Oh yeah, and for all those folks who seemed to take issue with Ashley's rather primitive perspective on God existing because of the "Just look out the window!" argument, yeah. Maybe she could've given a fancier articulate syllogism on why an ordered functioning universe producing intelligent life necessitates premeditated design or some bullcrap, but why should this be expected of her? She got her master's in shooting things, not navel-gazing.

I agree. She just looks out the window of a starship and gets a profound feeling she can't quite put into words. Why do people feel it is their duty to judge her and say she is simpleminded just because they feel differently. That is just being judgemental. I think that it is sad that so many people have issues with Ashley because they claim she is religious, xenophobic or racist, but still manage to sound so judgemental themselves.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 26 décembre 2009 - 12:18 .