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[Xandurpein]

Sumix101 wrote...

I not sure about this but I recall someone in Mass Effect saying that it was designed by the Turians (i.e. the hull and layout is their design) and the Tech was from Humans (Drive Core, Stealth Systems are made by humans). I'm don't remember were exactly so don't hold me to that.
I remember a thread a while ago in the ME forums with people wheather Ash was a racist or not. Then one of the Devs came in and said that everyone who said she was racist took everything out of context.
For example the "I can't tell the aliens" thing the dev adimitted that was a mistake to put in because of how many people took it out of context. It was meant to show how different intelligent lifeforms looked completly different. Then he put this picture up http://astropt.org/b...11/eosapian.jpg and asked is it was sapient alien or a simple animal (It was sapient).

http://meforums.biow...&forum=123&sp=0 Here the thread.

Thank you for posting this. Unfortunatly word from the developers seems to often be treated as no more hearsay on this forum

[Krigwin]

Xandurpein wrote...
You are presuming that the council races is basically the same nation/union...

When did I "presume" any of those things? I simply stated that none of your squad is a potential threat, and Garrus and Liara are the least likely when you factor in the fact that they're council races. I can elaborate further on why none of them are a threat if you wish, but apparently you've misread a simple point into me presuming anything about the political status of the ME races.

I am assuming that you have little if any experience of actually work in an evironment under military secrecy.

No, I am providing the ingame rationale for why Ashley's concerns are baseless and unnecessary, and how the mere fact that she had to voice them, compounded with her attitude for the rest of the game, confirms her xenophobia.

I agree that ultimately stopping the Reapers is a much bigger concern than national interests...

.

Wait, you mean the beginning of the game where you receive a vision of the Reapers wiping out the Protheans and then proceed to go to the Council meeting and have all three humans clamor on about how Saren is working with the Reapers to wipe out humanity? Right, I can see why the Reapers wouldn't be a problem at that point. Btw, that's what I consider to be one of Mass Effect's biggest flaws - the fact that they basically tell you the entire plot in the first hour.

Now you had me confused....

No, I said Ashley was wrong because her reasons for her "concerns" are wrong ("I distrust aliens" instead of "it's better to look out for ourselves"), and that it's not helping us out when we're trying to integrate ourselves into galactic politics. I don't see why that's hard to get.

Hmm... you just read a load of stuff into what Ashley says and does that I don't see...

Of course it's my opinion - or rather, my interpretation. That's what this topic is all about. "Why would you dislike Ashley?", and I provided my interpretation. Which judging from responses I'd say is a lot of people's interpretation, and it's of course drawn from statements she makes ingame.

Well... Wrex almost started a shooting war with me....

No, he did not think that, this is a fact and is the whole reason you're even able to talk him down. What he thought was that since you were going to destroy perhaps the only hope of his species to avoid extinction, you were an enemy of the krogan, and as a krogan warrior, he had to kill you. He had a very legitimate reason for turning on you at that point, and it isn't even a real betrayal of any sort considering how easy it is for you to remind him of why he joined you in the first place. But congratulations on missing my point entirely.

I agree. She just looks out the window of a starship and gets a
profound feeling she can't quite put into words. Why do people feel it
is their duty to judge her and say she is simpleminded just because
they feel differently. That is just being judgemental. I think that it
is sad that so many people have issues with Ashley because they claim
she is religious, xenophobic or racist, but still manage to sound so
judgemental themselves.

How very silly. I never said Ashley was simpleminded because I have differing opinions on creation, I said she's simpleminded because she has a primitive attitude and a childish thought pattern, in other words, because she's simpleminded. Why do you assume that people who think she is simple because of her religious beliefs can only think so because they are atheists? 

And no one feels it is their "duty" to do anything. All I did was enter a topic - about Ashley - and answer a question - about Ashley - by talking about, guess what, Ashley! You make it sound as if I'm shoving my opinions down people's throats when all I did was answer the question posed by the topic and provide the reasoning for my response. And just for the record, I actually don't have any issues with Ashley. Considering her background her attitude actually is quite understandable, it's the people blindly identifying with her and playing the "you can't judge a person just because she's religious!" card I have issues with. I do think she is a sloppily written character and definitely the least interesting of your squadmates though.

I think it is sad myself that so many people enter topics where there are clearly going to be people with differing opinions and then are disappointed and even apparently saddened when they read about it. If all you people are ever going to do is play the "it's judgemental for you to discuss video game characters lol" card then please get off the forums, I'm sure there are plenty of fansites elsewhere where you can group hug in peace.

[Chairchucker]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Chairchucker wrote...

With regards to Ashley, I never really saw her as being xenophobic, as such. I saw her animosity towards certain alien races as comparable to the animosity held by Irish, Scottish and Welsh people towards British people; that is it say, motivated by the memory of being invaded, enslaved and slaughtered for the previous couple of centuries.

You know, you are being rather antagonistic and **** stirring with that, but I'll just leave it at that.

It was the most convenient real world example I could think of; if you would like to view it as 'antagonistic' and stirring, that is your choice.

Another example is that typically in 'Western' movies we don't even blink at the fact that Native Americans will often refer to European people as 'white devils' and be generally distrustful of them; we take this not as an indication of 'racism' or 'xenophobia' on the part of the Native Americans, but as a natural reaction to the fact that Europeans had in fact invaded their land and slaughtered a large number of their population.

[Esternogligen]

I also thought she was ugly in da face.

[The Angry One]

Xandurpein wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Heh the Normandy is human-Turian designed to the point the damn thing resembles Turian ships more than Alliance (to the point that the first time I played I thought the Ascension's escorts were human ships) and yet there's not a single Turian engineer on board?
What did the Alliance do? Go "Well guys thanks for the help in desiging our new frigate but now it's MINE MINE MINE GO GO GO DOWN DOWN DOWN.".
And I'm reeeeeally going to believe the Council is going to co-fund and the Turians are going to co-design a super brand new ultra-drive core uber ship and just give it to the humans with no catch.

Well... all I can say is that this is EXACTLY how things work with military hardware today on Earth. I see no reason whatsoever to belive we will change in space. There is simply too many things that can assisst an enemy if they know exactly how this or that gadget has been tweaked. I don't expect it to be obvious for those who don't know anything about military electronics, but it's true. It's not many years the soviet Union did everything they could to stop the west from knowing the details of weaponry that was built from blueprints originally stolen from the West. It's just the way things work.

And when was the last time two nations, even allies, have co-designed a new piece of military hardware and then they just let one side take it all without so much as a supervisor?

[AntiChri5]

Squiggles1334 wrote...

One thing that kinda disappoints me in settings like Mass Effect is that each alien race typically comprises one single unified political type of entity. Are these other races so culturally enlightened that they've all unified to present one single voice and perspective? Or do we simply not give them enough credit that, especially back on their homeworlds, each single race can potentially have just as many divisions and disagreements on things ranging from culture and religion to philosophy and matters of governance as humans do? Is it simply too daunting for developers to create a diverse host of cultural, national, and political identities within each individual alien race? What if Turians had their own analogues of Labour Party, Tories, Republicans, Democrats, EU, monarchies, oligarchies, anarchist collectives, etc.?

It is definitely something I have pondered before.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and for all those folks who seemed to take issue with Ashley's rather primitive perspective on God existing because of the "Just look out the window!" argument, yeah. Maybe she could've given a fancier articulate syllogism on why an ordered functioning universe producing intelligent life necessitates premeditated design or some bullcrap, but why should this be expected of her? She got her master's in shooting things, not navel-gazing.

I found Mass Effect did a much better job of diversifying alien culture than most. Each race still had their stereotype (which earth race doesnt) but the party members you get are generally the exact opposite of that

[Xandurpein]

The Angry One wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Heh the Normandy is human-Turian designed to the point the damn thing resembles Turian ships more than Alliance (to the point that the first time I played I thought the Ascension's escorts were human ships) and yet there's not a single Turian engineer on board?
What did the Alliance do? Go "Well guys thanks for the help in desiging our new frigate but now it's MINE MINE MINE GO GO GO DOWN DOWN DOWN.".
And I'm reeeeeally going to believe the Council is going to co-fund and the Turians are going to co-design a super brand new ultra-drive core uber ship and just give it to the humans with no catch.

Well... all I can say is that this is EXACTLY how things work with military hardware today on Earth. I see no reason whatsoever to belive we will change in space. There is simply too many things that can assisst an enemy if they know exactly how this or that gadget has been tweaked. I don't expect it to be obvious for those who don't know anything about military electronics, but it's true. It's not many years the soviet Union did everything they could to stop the west from knowing the details of weaponry that was built from blueprints originally stolen from the West. It's just the way things work.

And when was the last time two nations, even allies, have co-designed a new piece of military hardware and then they just let one side take it all without so much as a supervisor?

Well... the current US main battle tank M1 Abrahams has a german built main gun installed. The germans sold the gun and they don't get access to poke around US tanks because of it. Sweden has built a jet fighter that is full of US built electronics, but the US goverment don't get to poke around inside swedish jet fighters because of it. This is just a few examples that springs to mind. What is your point?

[ushae]

Religion had nothing to do with the reason some people didn't like her, I think it was her racist slurs she came out with. Personally I both disliked and liked her a lot in many ways, she was down to earth and came to terms with who she was.



Leliana is a much kinder take on that same personality, she was a little too meek but had beliefs she stood by never forcing them down anyones throat unlike Wynne and Morrigan who just had to make themselves known. Now that I think about it, Morrigan is very mucha younger version of Wynn.

[Axterix]

Xandurpein wrote...

Well... the current US main battle tank M1 Abrahams has a german built main gun installed. The germans sold the gun and they don't get access to poke around US tanks because of it. Sweden has built a jet fighter that is full of US built electronics, but the US goverment don't get to poke around inside swedish jet fighters because of it. This is just a few examples that springs to mind. What is your point?

Well, I'd go with different examples than those.  As those examples, while they might use parts made in a certain country, are designed by a single country.  The examples I would use would be things like the Eurofighter Typhoon, Tornado, F-35 Lightning II, and Jaguar, all designed by more than one country in a cooperative effort.

And for those, while the basic design is shared, each country tends to have its own version thereof.  And if that isn't the case initially, upgrades over the course of the operational life mean they will diverge.

As such, the Normandy class blue prints might well be available to the Taurans, for the base design.  And, if there is a Turian version of the ship out there, it might well share many components with them.  But odds are things like the majority of the weapon systems are of human design, for reasons like maintaining an ammunition standard as well as the type of weapon systems humans prefer.  And Turians would not be given access to those systems.

In essense, it isn't parts from another country in a non-shared design that matter, but rather, the parts that aren't shared in anotherwise shared design.

So, anyway, I agree with your point, just not the choice of examples

[The Angry One]

We're not talking about a gun or a ship part though, it's said that the systems were co-designed by Turians, not just the hull. And the drive core and stealth systems are supposed to be revolutionary in the "nobody's done this before ever" type of way.

So yeah, if the Turians are going to co-design an oversized drive core that's never been used on a frigate before and just let the humans play with it.. the humans don't get to complain about being 2nd class..

[Axterix]

The Angry One wrote...

We're not talking about a gun or a ship part though, it's said that the systems were co-designed by Turians, not just the hull. And the drive core and stealth systems are supposed to be revolutionary in the "nobody's done this before ever" type of way.
So yeah, if the Turians are going to co-design an oversized drive core that's never been used on a frigate before and just let the humans play with it.. the humans don't get to complain about being 2nd class..

That's the thing...some systems are codesigned with the Turians.  Not everything is.  And the ones that aren't, possibly human only.

Odds are, the Turians have one of their own to test or will at some point.  Maybe it is still under construction.  Maybe the Turians run a longer period of computer tests before building the hardware.  Maybe constructing one isn't in their budget at the moment, the admiral who'd rather have a cruiser got his way instead.  Maybe they didn't want to go all the way until seeing how the human ship performed.  Not necessarily from the inside, but, you know, Turian spectre aboard right at the beginning, might just be killing two birds with 1 stone.  Get someone inside to evaluate it, see if it is worth pursuing.

None of that information is given.  What is given is that the Normandy is an Alliance ship.  It is not a Turian/Alliance ship.  Development cost was shared.  Certain systems co-designed.  But the Normandy itself is Alliance, with an Alliance crew and Alliance weapons.

That's how these things work.  If you check out the planes I mentioned, all of which are multi-national developed projects, you'll see each country involved tends to have its own prototypes and versions of the final plane.  Sometimes electronics change.  Sometimes the country wants a plane customized to a slightly different role.  Maybe engines from a local manufacturer, rather than an out of country one.

The design of the base ship, the design of certain systems within said ship are shared.  But not everything on the ship.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me if the funding of the ship was, for the biggest part, a PR move.  The Alliance trying to buy some goodwill by showing how they are useful, by showing they can work with the Turians.

[Xandurpein]

Axterix wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

We're not talking about a gun or a ship part though, it's said that the systems were co-designed by Turians, not just the hull. And the drive core and stealth systems are supposed to be revolutionary in the "nobody's done this before ever" type of way.
So yeah, if the Turians are going to co-design an oversized drive core that's never been used on a frigate before and just let the humans play with it.. the humans don't get to complain about being 2nd class..

That's the thing...some systems are codesigned with the Turians.  Not everything is.  And the ones that aren't, possibly human only.

Odds are, the Turians have one of their own to test or will at some point.  Maybe it is still under construction.  Maybe the Turians run a longer period of computer tests before building the hardware.  Maybe constructing one isn't in their budget at the moment, the admiral who'd rather have a cruiser got his way instead.  Maybe they didn't want to go all the way until seeing how the human ship performed.  Not necessarily from the inside, but, you know, Turian spectre aboard right at the beginning, might just be killing two birds with 1 stone.  Get someone inside to evaluate it, see if it is worth pursuing.

None of that information is given.  What is given is that the Normandy is an Alliance ship.  It is not a Turian/Alliance ship.  Development cost was shared.  Certain systems co-designed.  But the Normandy itself is Alliance, with an Alliance crew and Alliance weapons.

That's how these things work.  If you check out the planes I mentioned, all of which are multi-national developed projects, you'll see each country involved tends to have its own prototypes and versions of the final plane.  Sometimes electronics change.  Sometimes the country wants a plane customized to a slightly different role.  Maybe engines from a local manufacturer, rather than an out of country one.

The design of the base ship, the design of certain systems within said ship are shared.  But not everything on the ship.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me if the funding of the ship was, for the biggest part, a PR move.  The Alliance trying to buy some goodwill by showing how they are useful, by showing they can work with the Turians.

This is all accurate, as I have been trying to explain. I have myself first-hand knowledge from my professional career of how these things work. You may of course argue to your hearts content how things would be done in the Mass Effect universe, but if you disagree with the description of how things work in the real world today, please post evidence or at least a recount of first-hand experience.

[Relshar]

Leliana has red hair and blue eyes along with a sexy french accent. Need I say more ?

[Xandurpein]

Krigwin wrote...

When did I "presume" any of those things? I simply stated that none of your squad is a potential threat, and Garrus and Liara are the least likely when you factor in the fact that they're council races. I can elaborate further on why none of them are a threat if you wish, but apparently you've misread a simple point into me presuming anything about the political status of the ME races.

Please do explain to me how it is silly to raise the question about secrecy for alliance hi-tech is a stupid or simpleminded thing because I cannot for the life of me understand it. Are you assuming council races all share technology, that council races are above espionage or something else.

Krigwin wrote...
No, I am providing the ingame rationale for why Ashley's concerns are baseless and unnecessary, and how the mere fact that she had to voice them, compounded with her attitude for the rest of the game, confirms her xenophobia.

The idea that you know who they are and where they are going is really just conjecture. There are lots of times any of them has a chance to leave you and disappear, never to be heard again. An officer voicing concerns of security is simply second nature. You do of course have every right to interpret her actions that way, but I have to disagree. In no way can I even remotly construe her voicing these security concerns as proof of a xenophobic mind. Apparently the developers thought the same.

Krigwin wrote...
Of course it's my opinion - or rather, my interpretation. That's what this topic is all about. "Why would you dislike Ashley?", and I provided my interpretation. Which judging from responses I'd say is a lot of people's interpretation, and it's of course drawn from statements she makes ingame.

My point was simply that it would be a lot easier to accept what you write if you would take the time to differentiate between facts - what she says in game for example, and your interpretation. Like add a few "I believe..." or "I think..." rather than writing as if everything was facts.

Krigwin wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...
Well... Wrex almost started a shooting war with me....

No, he did not think that, this is a fact and is the whole reason you're even able to talk him down. What he thought was that since you were going to destroy perhaps the only hope of his species to avoid extinction, you were an enemy of the krogan, and as a krogan warrior, he had to kill you. He had a very legitimate reason for turning on you at that point, and it isn't even a real betrayal of any sort considering how easy it is for you to remind him of why he joined you in the first place. But congratulations on missing my point entirely.

Then likewise for missing my point. You wrote that we are supposed to identify with Ashley for being human, My own feeling is that the fact that Ashley was human had nothing to do with why I identified myself with her situation. I would in fact have accepted a Turian being upset about humans running around the ship too, even if it would have been a bit more strained as humans bought the thing.

Krigwin wrote...
How very silly. I never said Ashley was simpleminded because I have differing opinions on creation, I said she's simpleminded because she has a primitive attitude and a childish thought pattern, in other words, because she's simpleminded. Why do you assume that people who think she is simple because of her religious beliefs can only think so because they are atheists?

You are of course free to think so. If you base your opinion on the fact that you think she is xenophobic, then I think you are wrong as I don't think she is at all. So far it seems you base your line of reasoning solely on her alleged xenophobia, which I believe is a wrong interpretation. I suppose it would be cheating to argue that the developers say the same thing as I do - that Ashley isn't xenophobic - you are still free to feel differently, but I am interested if you have any other reason than this to base your idea that she is simpleminded than just that.

And no one feels it is their "duty" to do anything. All I did was enter a topic - about Ashley - and answer a question - about Ashley - by talking about, guess what, Ashley! You make it sound as if I'm shoving my opinions down people's throats when all I did was answer the question posed by the topic and provide the reasoning for my response. And just for the record, I actually don't have any issues with Ashley. Considering her background her attitude actually is quite understandable, it's the people blindly identifying with her and playing the "you can't judge a person just because she's religious!" card I have issues with. I do think she is a sloppily written character and definitely the least interesting of your squadmates though.

I have no problem with people not sharing my views. That part was not in a reply to your post, but a response to what someone else wrote. I merely commented on the fact that I believe that the way some people (I am not talking about you Krigwin) are critisizing Ashley for being judgmental in a very judgemental tone, which makes me wish they could hear themselves.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 27 décembre 2009 - 12:28 .

[Xandurpein]

Relshar wrote...

Leliana has red hair and blue eyes along with a sexy french accent. Need I say more ?

There are gorgeous women with a lovely hair, and there are women that makes you think "I have to make her let down her hair, I bet she looks gorgeous then" Ashley belongs to the second group

[Jman5]

I don't know what you guys are talking about. I loved Ashley!



Over, and over and over again...

[SilkyChicken]

I 'ed Ashley. We killed lots of xenos together. I hate xenos.



It's a shame that DAO didn't reeeally let you kill off the Dalish elves. I tried it once because I didn't want a band of separatists, with their non-integrating fundamentalist ways, running around my (future) kingdom. That's a recipe for disaster. But after I sided with the werewolves, and wiped the camp out, I realized that the 'wolves were a bigger problem. Talk about non-integrating! One drop of their spit and now everyone's a werewolf. At least with the elves they can be bred out of existence.

[KnightofPhoenix]

SilkyChicken wrote...
It's a shame that DAO didn't reeeally let you kill off the Dalish elves. I tried it once because I didn't want a band of separatists, with their non-integrating fundamentalist ways, running around my (future) kingdom. That's a recipe for disaster. But after I sided with the werewolves, and wiped the camp out, I realized that the 'wolves were a bigger problem. Talk about non-integrating! One drop of their spit and now everyone's a werewolf. At least with the elves they can be bred out of existence.

The Ordo Xenos would be proud.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 décembre 2009 - 02:51 .

[Xandurpein]

SilkyChicken wrote...

I 'ed Ashley. We killed lots of xenos together. I hate xenos.

It's a shame that DAO didn't reeeally let you kill off the Dalish elves. I tried it once because I didn't want a band of separatists, with their non-integrating fundamentalist ways, running around my (future) kingdom. That's a recipe for disaster. But after I sided with the werewolves, and wiped the camp out, I realized that the 'wolves were a bigger problem. Talk about non-integrating! One drop of their spit and now everyone's a werewolf. At least with the elves they can be bred out of existence.

I suppose the "we hate Ashley" faction don't have the monopoly on narrowminded discussion...

[Hyper Cutter]

Being religious is much more plausible in a fantasy context than a sci-fi one, honestly...

[FlintlockJazz]

Chairchucker wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Chairchucker wrote...

With regards to Ashley, I never really saw her as being xenophobic, as such. I saw her animosity towards certain alien races as comparable to the animosity held by Irish, Scottish and Welsh people towards British people; that is it say, motivated by the memory of being invaded, enslaved and slaughtered for the previous couple of centuries.

You know, you are being rather antagonistic and **** stirring with that, but I'll just leave it at that.

It was the most convenient real world example I could think of; if you would like to view it as 'antagonistic' and stirring, that is your choice.

Another example is that typically in 'Western' movies we don't even blink at the fact that Native Americans will often refer to European people as 'white devils' and be generally distrustful of them; we take this not as an indication of 'racism' or 'xenophobia' on the part of the Native Americans, but as a natural reaction to the fact that Europeans had in fact invaded their land and slaughtered a large number of their population.

First off you used the term 'British' instead of English, the 'enslaving, invasion and slaughtering' did not occur during the last two centuries except for Ireland, who actually have a real reason to be upset.  Scotland invaded England just as much, and the union was brought about by the marriage of the Scottish King to the English Queen, and the Union Flag was created under the orders of the Scottish King for the benefit of the Scottish people.  It's all just an excuse for their hate, just as English use it as an excuse to be hateful back, and is pathetic considering the actual history of it all.

And as for 'hating' someone for their nationality, that is indeed bigotry no matter how you paint it, simple fact, which is sad considering that any injustices and crimes committed upon Scotland or Wales by the English government was first practiced and refined upon it's own people first (tyranny begins at home). 

So, in essence, you have proven Ashley of being a xenophobe with your comparison. 

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 27 décembre 2009 - 02:43 .

[Statulos]

Hyper Cutter wrote...

Being religious is much more plausible in a fantasy context than a sci-fi one, honestly...

Take a look at Heavy Gear. Religion over there makes complete sense.

[LDiCesare]

Yet on these forums no one seems to hate Leliana. No one seems to care that she believes in a supreme being.

On my first playthrough I just refused to take her in my group because she was such a bigot.
As a result, she never was part of the party and probably died in Lothering for all I know, so I couldn't hate her.
There were just too many "Maker did this/Maker will save us" guys around when I started as a human noble. I guess Ferelden is very religious, and it makes sense for a medievall settings, but suddenly bumping into Joan of Arc sounded like too much of a lunatic to me, so I just ignored her.

[Angoris]

I think Ashley was more of the crusades, inquisition, Catholic Church forcing their idolatrous view of Christianity on the world...



Leliana was more like a straightforward, baseline Christianity, the kind that just believed because it felt right and there really were no rules other than the faith you hold inside...



Either way, I like seeing faith portrayed in games. It's the main reason I love Star Wars... some have faith in themselves, others have faith in a power beyond their imagining, some have faith in wealth and gain, and others have faith in other people... but the common thread in all this is that they have faith and that faith and belief drives the story.



Good thread by the way... lots of discussion and insight.

[Herr Uhl]

Angoris wrote...
I think Ashley was more of the crusades, inquisition, Catholic Church forcing their idolatrous view of Christianity on the world...

or the Lutheran way once it got any influence.

Wow, all that from her believing in a supreme being, mentioning it once and then dropping the subject.

I didn't see her go around harassing Hanar...

The religion in scifi I despised the most is stargate. Their (Earths) justification for their faith being canon consisting mainly of "our god does not manifest itself, thus it is real and better than what you believe, fools!". Translation: since it does not manifest itself in any tangible way, our faith is correct.