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[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Angoris wrote...
I think Ashley was more of the crusades, inquisition, Catholic Church forcing their idolatrous view of Christianity on the world...

or the Lutheran way once it got any influence.

Wow, all that from her believing in a supreme being, mentioning it once and then dropping the subject.

I didn't see her go around harassing Hanar...

The religion in scifi I despised the most is stargate. Their (Earths) justification for their faith being canon consisting mainly of "our god does not manifest itself, thus it is real and better than what you believe, fools!". Translation: since it does not manifest itself in any tangible way, our faith is correct.

If the Abrahamic faiths, at least Judaism and Islam, worship the perfect infinite God, then yes, He can't be seen by human eyes, nor can His creation, which is finite, ever represent Him. The logic behind it is if God shows himself in His creation, that means He is bound by the laws of His own creation (including time and space), which would be illogical, for an infinite being cannot be bound by anything. The Abrahamic God is not bound to any law, thus the finite universe cannot accomodate or represent Him.

The logic is coherent and flawless. The premise of whether that God does exst or not will remain a question fo faith. But if one believes that God to exist, then believing that He cannot be seen is coherent.
Of course one could very reasonably argue that Christianity completely forsakes this logic and coherence. But the other two religions do not.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 décembre 2009 - 07:49 .

[ckriley]

Well, from my point of view, Ashley came off as a Republican and Leliana came off as a religious Democrat. That's the most basic way I can explain it.

[Xandurpein]

There are a couple of defining characteristics about Ashley, that also sets her apart from Leliana. Ashley is a soldier and an officer. I have met quite a few officers, but I am very much a civilian myself, so I think I am in a reasonably good position to say what that means.



A defining characteristic of almost any military establishment is that to function they depend on drill. I use the term "drill" quite loosely here. To me it means that you have a set of standard solutions to many situations. You know who is expected to do what and don't discuss it. This is in some way a limitiation in that they do things without thinking, but it's necessary to make a huge colossus, like a moving army work under the stress of combat. In that narrow sense officers can seem simpleminded. However, my own experience is that the vast majority of officers only really apply this thinking to their work. They are just as prone to read poetry, muse on the nature of the universe or whatever else we civilians do as the next one. It's only within the framework of their profession that they can seem like "unquestioning simpletons" for those of us who don't understand why they are acting so.



Closely related to her military experience, is the fact that she has a strong sense of duty, sometimes bordering on pigheadedness. She truly belive in the service of the Alliance even if the Alliance doesn't seem to reward her. She has a very strong sense of duty towards her family.



Another defining quality of Ashley is that I believe her to be a very shy person. She has little confidence in dealing with other people, outside the framework of her military life. She admits to not being good with words, but her quotes of poetry really speaks differently. I think she just hides behind those quotes, like an actor because she is to shy to say it in her own words.



I think the moment where she really reveals her true self is just prior to the sex scene, when she says she has been trying so hard in her military career, but not until now does she feel she is worthy of the uniform. She doesn't believe she is worthy of being part of the Alliance Marines even though she tries so hard. That in my mind speaks volumes about her true self.

[ozenglish]

Heheheh she wasn't that shy on one playthrough where she basically jumped me in the bedroom lol.

[Xandurpein]

ozenglish wrote...

Heheheh she wasn't that shy on one playthrough where she basically jumped me in the bedroom lol.

The fact that she is kind of "take charge" in the sex scene doesn't really clash with the fact that she is also shy in the sense, that she really doesn't have great faith in her ability to communicate with people, at least not in my mind. You are making the assumption that shy means sexually passive, which I think is a misunderstanding.

[Chairchucker]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

First off you used the term 'British' instead of English, the 'enslaving, invasion and slaughtering' did not occur during the last two centuries except for Ireland, who actually have a real reason to be upset.  Scotland invaded England just as much, and the union was brought about by the marriage of the Scottish King to the English Queen, and the Union Flag was created under the orders of the Scottish King for the benefit of the Scottish people.  It's all just an excuse for their hate, just as English use it as an excuse to be hateful back, and is pathetic considering the actual history of it all.

Yeah OK, I didn't exactly research the conflicts beforehand, it was a hastily slapped together analogy to illustrate that 'I hate group X because historically that people group have caused violence to my own' is idealogically much different to 'I hate group X because they are different to my own people group.'

FlintlockJazz wrote...
And as for 'hating' someone for their nationality, that is indeed bigotry no matter how you paint it, simple fact, which is sad considering that any injustices and crimes committed upon Scotland or Wales by the English government was first practiced and refined upon it's own people first (tyranny begins at home). 

So, in essence, you have proven Ashley of being a xenophobe with your comparison. 

I have to disagree. If one's only experience of an alien race is that race killing you, it is prudent to take the default stance that they're going to continue to do so. In Aliens, Alien 3 and Alien: Resurrection, Ripley was already relatively confident that any diplomatic relationships with the aliens was going to involve the aliens attempting to kill her and lay eggs in her stomach (not necessarily in that order) so I'm satisfied that it was not 'bigoted' or 'xenophobic' of her to distrust aliens and attempt to terminate them on sight.

[dirtywick]

Chairchucker wrote...
Yeah OK, I didn't exactly research the conflicts beforehand, it was a hastily slapped together analogy to illustrate that 'I hate group X because historically that people group have caused violence to my own' is idealogically much different to 'I hate group X because they are different to my own people group.'

Try Koreans and Japanese.

Anyone who wouldn't be somewhat wary of aliens in her situation would be foolish considering she lost her whole squad to a race of aliens created by aliens on account of a alien traitor and the council of aliens stood united behind him.  

[SilkyChicken]

Xandurpein wrote...

SilkyChicken wrote...

I 'ed Ashley. We killed lots of xenos together. I hate xenos.

It's a shame that DAO didn't reeeally let you kill off the Dalish elves. I tried it once because I didn't want a band of separatists, with their non-integrating fundamentalist ways, running around my (future) kingdom. That's a recipe for disaster. But after I sided with the werewolves, and wiped the camp out, I realized that the 'wolves were a bigger problem. Talk about non-integrating! One drop of their spit and now everyone's a werewolf. At least with the elves they can be bred out of existence.

I suppose the "we hate Ashley" faction don't have the monopoly on narrowminded discussion...

Yes.  Narrow like a rapier.

[guitarbard]

As much as I like Leliana, her faith can get annoying sometimes, as it seems to interfere with everything she talks about and the choices she makes throughout the game. Ashley mentions God only once, and her explanation for believing in a higher power is one I find valid ("Hello, I mean, have you looked out the window? How can you see that and not believe in a higher power?"), and she still kicks total ass in the game, her religion not seeming to have a huge influence at all. If I had a game crossover party and my last choice was down to Ashley or Leliana, I'd pick Ashley. She believes, but she doesn't let her faith take complete control over her life; instead, she makes her own decision, choosing free will over fate. Leliana, on the other hand, lets the Maker guide her fate, or so she believes.

Modifié par AndrastesGrace, 28 décembre 2009 - 06:11 .

[Chairchucker]

AndrastesGrace wrote...

As much as I like Leliana, her faith can get annoying sometimes, as it seems to interfere with everything she talks about and the choices she makes throughout the game. Ashley mentions God only once, and her explanation for believing in a higher power is one I find valid ("Hello, I mean, have you looked out the window? How can you see that and not believe in a higher power?"), and she still kicks total ass in the game, her religion not seeming to have a huge influence at all. If I had a game crossover party and my last choice was down to Ashley or Leliana, I'd pick Ashley. She believes, but she doesn't let her faith take complete control over her life; instead, she makes her own decision, choosing free will over fate. Leliana, on the other hand, lets the Maker guide her fate, or so she believes.

Interesting you should say that; I would take the position that if one's faith does not in some way shape your actions, chances are you don't actually have faith.

[Ryngard]

Let me start by saying I'm an Atheist. Very open to others believing what they want though.



I absolutely adore Leliana. I'm fine with people who look at religion as she does (I wish more in OUR world did so). If I lived in a world with proof of a Deity (as in Thedas/fantasy RPGs) then I could see myself being a lot like her. She trusts herself and her beliefs and I'd be happy to be with her.



Ash is a tough one. I was a little put off at first with her religious beliefs, and as many others on the boards her xenophobia. However, you realize that her religious beliefs are very similar to Leliana's (they are for her, she doesnt push on anyone) and through dialog you can genuinely get her to see her xenophobia is wrong and in the end she becomes a VERY likable character.

[FlintlockJazz]

Chairchucker wrote...

Yeah OK, I didn't exactly research the conflicts beforehand, it was a hastily slapped together analogy to illustrate that 'I hate group X because historically that people group have caused violence to my own' is idealogically much different to 'I hate group X because they are different to my own people group.'

Just be glad that you didn't refer to the whole of Britain as England, as that would really get some people going, especially the Scots!  It's like refering to the Netherlands as Holland: there's gonna be a lot of Dutch people getting very very angry with you, I have seen it with my own eyes and it ain't pretty.

Chairchucker wrote...

I have to disagree. If one's only experience of an alien race is that race killing you, it is prudent to take the default stance that they're going to continue to do so. In Aliens, Alien 3 and Alien: Resurrection, Ripley was already relatively confident that any diplomatic relationships with the aliens was going to involve the aliens attempting to kill her and lay eggs in her stomach (not necessarily in that order) so I'm satisfied that it was not 'bigoted' or 'xenophobic' of her to distrust aliens and attempt to terminate them on sight.

But then it's not really a good comparison, as the relationship between those real-world examples have been more complicated than just killing each other like in the aliens films.  And they are able to reason with races like Turians, though I do agree with Ashley's suspicions of them due to the fact that they are indeed primarily interested in themselves just as we are, and isn't advocating genocide.

And those poor Aliens Ripley kills!  There they are, minding their own business just trying to get by and lay eggs in people and along she comes and starts massacring them all!  Someone should take her to court!