86 réponses à ce sujet

[FlintlockJazz]

In regards to the walking speed of an elf, they do actually walk faster than the equivalent human, it's just that since they're also shorter their strides are shorter, therefore it equals out, hence why they walk at the same speed as humans despite being shorter than them. 

[OBoile]

Dark83 wrote...

What does being slim have to do with being fast? Usain Bolt. the current world record holder:
Being short will have more of an impact - it's your stride. You don't see any short sprinters/runners holding records. Being lean and cut is a side effect of having really good cardio, not the cause.

Actually, I'd be willing to bet Bolt does virtually no "cardio" (which is incredibaly counter-productive for sprinting performance). You certainly don't have to do that to be lean. Tempo runs of up to maybe 200-300m would be pretty much all he does in terms of "cardio".

[OBoile]

F-C wrote...

Tonya777 wrote...

Speaking of which its a daunting task to attempt to look like Brad Pitt there.... because gym equipment or memberships actually cost money

If I could somehow just get an entire gym full of equipment for free I'd go for that superb fitness level

Technically a gym membership is relativley affordable for most people , but working out in public seems embarassing to me lol

this is just you trying to justify being lazy.

you can work out at home without any expensive equipment if you are the least bit inclined to.

it is easy to come up with excuses though.

Agreed.

[OBoile]

Tonya777 wrote...

@F-C , well I suppose maybe you're right

But I kind of think that to do Calesthinics on a regular basis? That takes more than simply "not lazy" , I think one has to be truly DRIVEN to go to those lengths seeing as that is the most uncomfortable and painful way to work out , which is also discouraging when you see **** on TV that works alot more comfortably and effectivley but then you can't buy it

And no I really can't buy it , I currently have no job so any purchases would have to be coming from my parents , and they are broke as hell too... we are actually having a quite meager Christmas really

But anyway I think this is getting off topic now

The following is pretty much a rule:
Exercise cannot be both comfortable and effective. The stuff you see "on TV" is just as "painful".

Edit: or more likely: the stuff on TV doesn't really work.

Modifié par OBoile, 23 décembre 2009 - 09:10 .

[Dark83]

OBoile wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

What does being slim have to do with being fast? Usain Bolt. the current world record holder:
Being short will have more of an impact - it's your stride. You don't see any short sprinters/runners holding records. Being lean and cut is a side effect of having really good cardio, not the cause.

Actually, I'd be willing to bet Bolt does virtually no "cardio" (which is incredibaly counter-productive for sprinting performance). You certainly don't have to do that to be lean. Tempo runs of up to maybe 200-300m would be pretty much all he does in terms of "cardio".

Well of course sprinters need explosive force, but I didn't say he "did cardio" (as in the exercises). I said he wasn't slim.

He obviously has good cardio (as in a strong cardio-vascular system, which is strong heart and lungs). You don't get those just doing strength exercises, and you tend to end up having a high BMR in the midst of developing it. However, as far as I know sprinters still need to run (ie. a cardio exercise). See here: http://www.brianmac....rints/index.htm

I can handle the circuit training fine, but that running schedule would kill me.

It depends on your definition of lean, however. I meant lean as in Fight Club Brad Pitt, not skinny/scrawny without definition or muscle. Being lean is just having a low fat %, and that's next to impossible without actually either cardio exercises or a controlled diet. You have to burn more than you consume in order to shed the fat, and then keep up the exercise to ensure you have muscle.

Modifié par Dark83, 23 décembre 2009 - 08:21 .

[OBoile]

Dark83 wrote...

OBoile wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

What does being slim have to do with being fast? Usain Bolt. the current world record holder:
Being short will have more of an impact - it's your stride. You don't see any short sprinters/runners holding records. Being lean and cut is a side effect of having really good cardio, not the cause.

Actually, I'd be willing to bet Bolt does virtually no "cardio" (which is incredibaly counter-productive for sprinting performance). You certainly don't have to do that to be lean. Tempo runs of up to maybe 200-300m would be pretty much all he does in terms of "cardio".

Well of course sprinters need explosive force, but I didn't say he "did cardio" (as in the exercises). I said he wasn't slim.

He obviously has good cardio (as in a strong cardio-vascular system, which is strong heart and lungs). You don't get those just doing strength exercises, and you tend to end up having a high BMR in the midst of developing it. However, as far as I know sprinters still need to run (ie. a cardio exercise). See here: http://www.brianmac....rints/index.htm

I can handle the circuit training fine, but that running schedule would kill me.

It depends on your definition of lean, however. I meant lean as in Fight Club Brad Pitt, not skinny/scrawny without definition or muscle. Being lean is just having a low fat %, and that's next to impossible without actually either cardio exercises or a controlled diet. You have to burn more than you consume in order to shed the fat, and then keep up the exercise to ensure you have muscle.

No,  No, 1000 times No!

Without getting overly techinical (in which case ever movement - even typing this post - is cardio) I don't see you you can equate that running schedule with traditional "cardio".  The MAXIMUM total distance in any one of those workouts (you do realise they aren't all done at once right?) is 3000m and that would be done by a 400m runner over the course of >1/2 hour, not by Bolt. In fact, while the weight training routines listed are very flawed (who does 10 reps of olympic lifts?) that running schedule is pretty much exactly what I said! If/when you gain an understaning of muscle fibre types you'll learn that endurance work is counter-productive when trying to increase power.

Sprinters (particularly 100m sprinters) pretty much only do three things:
1. Sprint
2. Lift weights
3. Recovery work - which can include some low intensity tempo runs. This is really the only thing resembling cardio that Bolt would do.

Bolt does far less "cardio" than your typical housewife.

What makes you so sure Bolt has a strong cardio vascular system? I'm sure he does compared to the typical sedentry individual reading this thread, but I'd be willing to bet he wouldn't be able to do a 10k in 40 minutes - hardly a world class time.

If you wish to be lean - by your definition, then lifting weights is of far greater benefit than cardio. It preserves muscle mass while dieting and keeps the base metabolic rate high. Cardio can help - and is certainly good for your health, but isn't really necessary in order to be lean. Traditional cardio does nothing retain muscle mass and burns relatively few calories when compared to the amount of calories saved through dietary modifications.

Sprinters like Bolt are evidence of this. He simply does not ever go for a 1/2 hour jog or spend an hour on the eliptical... yet look at him.

For further reading on the training of sprinters (and speed development in general) I suggest you look the following web sites:
charliefrancis.com
defrancostraining.com
elitefts.com
higher-faster-sports.com
ericcressey.com

For further reading on body composition, I'd suggest:
t-nation.com
tonygentilcore.com
forums.jpfitness.com

[Baalzie]

Are all You people illiterate or stupid? *If You feel attacked, You feel guilty of one of those I presume*

Dextrous and agile is NOT thin, slim or skinny it is uhm let's see?

Dextrous and Agile!

Sumowrestlers are fat as hell, but DAMN agile and dextrous!

Pick out a frigging dictionary and read what the words mean!



The elves are stated in many places to be lean *Meaning slim and all that* nimble and agile...

Doesn't mean You are one because you are the other!

Pffft!

Big and strong folks aren't strong because they're big, they're just simply big and strong!

I way 79 kg's, I'm 185 cm's high... Kinda lean.... But I can lift over 150 kg's without a problem...

Wait, I'm both Lean *skinny the BB idiots would say* but strong?

Impossible! I break the laws of bodybuilders nature!

Realitycheck: Bodybuilders are huge but comparatively weak and frail...

Guess why almost all weightlifter champions look like barrels not bodybuilders?



So Elves SHOULD have a + in Dex... And dwarves shouldn't... Why get a + in something You're not known in excelling at?

OR the view of elves should be changed throughout DA:O's universe...

And the DWARVES be known as the nimble ones...



And sorry if anyone feels attacked, just so weary of so many people talking outta their behinds so much on these forums...

[Dark83]

@OBoile :

Looking at: http://www.brianmac....lans/sprint.htm
"400m athletes - their repetition runs are 1-2 x 3-6 x 300-400m on Sunday"
1 to 2 sets of 3-6 reps of 300-400m.
That's 900m to 4800m. Taking the average numbers, over 2.3 km, with about 30 minutes of rest sprinkled in. That's not cardio? Sprinting 100m a dozen times over the course of your workout isn't working your heart? Jeez, are you Lance Armstrong or something? If you can run 10km non-stop, I'd think you've already got a fine cardio-vascular system. You think the average guy on the street can even jog that?

(The only one of your links I visit regularly is t-nation. Tossing links to entire sites is hardly helpful.)

Actually, I have no idea what you're even addressing. I've said primarily one thing: Slim != Fast. Then I said that simply having good cardio would make you lean. I did not say that it is the only way - however, you've basically argued that they're not related, by taking the opposite approach?

"Do cardio" vs "proper diet" is exactly the same basic principle - burn more than you consume keeps your weight down. Build muscle while losing fat, and bam. It's the same thing everybody in the world knows.

My friend is an ectomorph, I'm endomorphic. He weight trains 6 days a week, and controls his diet. He's kinda lean - but the difference in his on and off season is the cardio he does, and it makes a huge difference in how cut he can get. It's exactly the same for the other guys at the gym.

Perhaps the difference is that you consider constant sprinting to not be cardio. Fine. But just "eat less" + "weight training" will not get you lean. I did that for about 6 months once (5/week weight training, 1600 calories a day). Pales in comparison to the results from running every other day, and swimming once a week (with 2/week weight training) with a 2000 cal diet.

Modifié par Dark83, 23 décembre 2009 - 10:06 .

[Bibdy]

Baalzie wrote...


So Elves SHOULD have a + in Dex... And dwarves shouldn't... Why get a + in something You're not known in excelling at?
OR the view of elves should be changed throughout DA:O's universe...
And the DWARVES be known as the nimble ones...

And sorry if anyone feels attacked, just so weary of so many people talking outta their behinds so much on these forums...

That's the crux of it. Elves in this universe really don't have anything special about them. They have lost their immortality and don't exist for very long, so they're just weak, frail versions of humans who are more in-tune with magic.

Your stereotypical Elf in other fantasy settings has existed for thousands of years and honed their skills with bows, their dexterity, agility, stealth etc. Elves in DA:O have not.

[Dark83]

Actually, I'm curious. Sten says "the elves are a lithe, pointy-eared people who excel at poverty."
Where else are elves described by others?

(Lithe = bending readily; pliant; limber; supple; flexible)

Modifié par Dark83, 23 décembre 2009 - 10:23 .

[addiction21]

Dark83 wrote...

Actually, I'm curious. Sten says "the elves are a lithe, pointy-eared people who excel at poverty."
Where else are elves described by others?

(Lithe = bending readily; pliant; limber; supple; flexible)

Without trying to cut to many hairs. That could be taken at least two ways.
1. They are a dexterous people physically.
2. They are a people that bend to others wills easily.
(or only one way and my weird reading comprehension is kicking in)

Now I have witnessed members of all the races easily leap onto a large and rather pissed off monster then bounding into the air doing some twists and flips to easily land back on the same monsters head to then impale them.

Modifié par addiction21, 23 décembre 2009 - 10:54 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Dark83 wrote...

Actually, I'm curious. Sten says "the elves are a lithe, pointy-eared people who excel at poverty."
Where else are elves described by others?

(Lithe = bending readily; pliant; limber; supple; flexible)

So if Sten has worked out that elves bend more easily does this mean he knows the breaking points of the typical elf?  How many elves did he bend to find that out?!

[Sibelius1]

Dark83 wrote...

Actually, I'm curious. Sten says "the elves are a lithe, pointy-eared people who excel at poverty."
Where else are elves described by others?

If you have an elven PC and talk to Leliana, she points uot that the elves are renowned in her country for being "nimble" and "pleasant to look at"

Modifié par Sibelius1, 24 décembre 2009 - 12:52 .

[Sibelius1]

F-C wrote...

Sibelius1 wrote...

F-C wrote...

i think too many people are taking their impression of elves from other games and trying to imprint it onto dao.

When one the DAO companions comments on how the elves are renowned for being nimble, I believe that that is how they should be in this universe. So either the writing or the attribute allocation is wrong. Which is it?

so one companion has this disposition that elves are nimble so thats how it should be in the universe, huh?

with the same logic there is one companion that thinks pigeons are the greatest evil in all of ferelden so apparently pigeons need to start replacing darkspawn for the enemy of choice.

When Leliana says that elves are 'renowned in her country for being nimble and pleasant to look at', keyword being 'renowned', it generally means that the majority of people recognise and accept their nimbleness, not just one person. 

You should really know the facts, and read other peoples posts properly before blindly defending the game's inconsistencies

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

Shouldn't elves racial stat bonuses include DEX?

No.

Also , shouldn't they be able to run faster since they are slim?

No.

[Tirigon]

No race should get any bonuses at all.

First, because you choose the race you like the most (or, in my case, elves because they look best), not the race with the best stats for your class.

Second, because it´s a racist prejudice that your race influences your skill at anything. What matters is what you do, how often and what you practice, etc, not of which race you are.

Third, because elves in fantasy are also great swordsmen and magicians and have strong wills and are immune to illnesses (= high constitution) and are intelligent etc.. So if you follow your propositions, elves would get +100 all attributes, and that would break the game.







To make it short:



NO!

[Rav2C]

Tirigon wrote...

No race should get any bonuses at all.
First, because you choose the race you like the most (or, in my case, elves because they look best), not the race with the best stats for your class.
Second, because it´s a racist prejudice that your race influences your skill at anything. What matters is what you do, how often and what you practice, etc, not of which race you are.
Third, because elves in fantasy are also great swordsmen and magicians and have strong wills and are immune to illnesses (= high constitution) and are intelligent etc.. So if you follow your propositions, elves would get +100 all attributes, and that would break the game.



To make it short:

NO!

Ah yes, the hyperbole police are out in force. Can't just be content with saying no, but have to do it in an explosive manner too.

 As for the original question, I would suggest looking at the design doc for the races and determine from there if the intended form/function of the Elf race would suggest or otherwise support a bonus to Dexterity. Then look at the design discussions over what bonuses to give / were given (if they are available).

Barring that, I suppose one could ask the Devs... Nah, that'd be too easy. Much better for everyone to flame each other.

Modifié par Rav2C, 24 décembre 2009 - 03:05 .

[Dark83]

Wouldn't hyperbole police guard against hyperbole?

[EvilIguana966]

Both humans and elves are missing something stat wise when compared with Dwarves, who get that awesome 10% magic resistance. I don't know precisely what the right bonus for elves would be, but balance wise they ought to get something.

[Norman Ellis]

my suggestion is this:



give Dalish Elves something like +3 to Dexterity, since lorewise, they are great archers and all that time in the wild has taught trained them to be agile, dextrous and whatnot



give the City Elves +3 to Cunning. all that time in the city must have robbed them of whatever agility they had, plus the fact they aren't allowed to carry weapons. they are however, poor, and will do anything to survive, hence the boost to cunning

[Erucolindo]

I think the racial stats in general are kinds of skewed. Right now, it favors Elves as being mages, everyone else as warriors/rogues. If you try and make a human mage, you are at a very slight disadvantage willpower wise when compared to an elf. So I definately agree that elves should at least get some dex bonus.



A human mage can have, at best (with the collector's addition Book) 19 magic, 18 willpower at lvl one I think. An elf can have 20 and 20 after using the book.



And the reverse becomes true basically for warriors in terms of humans have better starting strength, dex, and con.

[Tyrax Lightning]

If I remember correctly, City Elves & Dalish Elves have been divided & lived seperately for over a millenium. I think in video game physics, that'll be long enough to have seperated into two different evolutionary paths. So I propose this idea:



City Elves: They're not gonna get agile on a life of poverty & oppression. Such conditions will logically dull their hand-eye coordination & stunt their flexibility. On the other hand, the determination to survive & endure will exercise the Willpower, & self-discipline & focus will exercise their Magic. Leave the +2 Magic, +2 Will. This makes sense for them.



Dalish Elves: They roam the wild, untamed lands. To survive, they'll need to be quick, nimble, & cunning. I think in light of this, Dalish Elves should have the stat bonuses of +2 Dex, +2 Cunning.



It's logical for City Elves to be the best mages & struggle at the warrior & rogue paths with the plight of their people's situation they're stuck with, & it doesn't make any sense for the Dalish to have as much magic when they have no chance to keep it exercised. (Barring the handful of Dalish Keepers that are not available for player play.) Dalish would logically make awesome rogues, great dual-wield warriors, & ok non dual-wield warriors, & they wouldn't be the best of choices for mage, but that doesn't matter since they don't have the option anyway.



How does this idea sound?

[Tyrax Lightning]

Oh, almost forgot, a point about dwarves many are overlooking. Their Magic resistance racial bonus is NOT free like many say, their Magic resistance is given to them at a price for their lack of ability to take the Mage path. Combine this with how highly rated Mage power is, & that starts lookin like quite a trade-off for their Magic resistance, right?

[Forumtroll]

I have a feeling 'renowned in her country for being nimble and pleasant to look at' is more hinting that elves are good at sex and are valued for being good at sex.