883 réponses à ce sujet

[The Twilight God]

Zagardal wrote...

The ending isn't nonsensical, it's just goddamn depressing.

Refusal is just being too stubborn to accept the fact that what they did wasn't enough, even if they clearly stated that they couldn't win in a conventional confrontation waaaay beforehand.

Destroy is going for the original purpose we had, but sacrificing the geth in the process. If you went renegade and didn't give a crap about them to begin with, it shouldn't be a problem. If you went paragon, this clearly should be too steep a price to pay. While refusal is all about rejecting the next stage in evolution, this is supposed to be the less extreme refusal choice. It says "we don't believe in your logic, but by choosing this we don't have a back up argument either". The whole idea of sentient synthetical intelligence being as important as organic intelligence is supposed to stop you from doing this, which would be the racist choice. Geth holocaust, plain and simple.

You don't know that the geth were sacrificed. EDI actually has reaper parts. The geth are software. They have no bluebox (or any hardware) and are technically indistinquishable from any other piece of machinery. If the fleet ships are still running then the geth should be too.

Zagardal wrote...

Control is thinking you have the will to command the reapers, which is a gamble considering that by merging with them, you might eventually assume their logic too and finish what they started. It could be millions of years later, but it could happen anyway. You save every species, but in the really really really long term something could change. It's the "paragon" choice, but for Shepard, not for the overall scheme; you might save everything you know, but that's ultimatelly just a grain of sand.

Control is being Reaperfied. Not in a million years, but right then and there. The entire epilogues reads off like your conversation with TIM. "I will.." this, "I will..." that, but can he?

Zagardal wrote...

Synthesis makes you "one with the galaxy". Supposedly, it doesn't make you a reaper, a being with a great degree of conciousness but in the end still under the control of a higher form of intelligence. You could actually argue that we are the same in some way, bound to instinct and basic human logic: we are never told that the reapers are aware of starchild, they're just aware of what they must do in order to survive. Synthesis should preserve life as a whole, and while individuality suffers (but does not disappear entirely as we see in the EC),

 
The indoctrinated retain an individual persona. And there is nothing stating that every person is mentally linked. This is speculation. What is admitted, by the Kid is that “The cycle will end. The reapers will cease their harvest. And the civilizations preserved in their forms will be connected to all of us." At best they are all connected on in that they are all connected to the Reapers... like husks.

Zagardal wrote...

it merges everybody into a new plural entity. It's basically what every religious utopia offers to us, but because we also merge with "robots", part of which are the same that apparently brought all of this upon the unsuspecting masses, most people think it's too much even if it might be the better outcome; if jesus/budha/yoda/norris came to tell us he's going to save us all but not the way you though he would, a lot of people would be pissed. I see synthesis more as an organic-synthetic hybrid geth consensus than a reaper-like overtaking. It still kinda sucks that we can't get a ambiguous disney ending (we won the way we like/millions of years from now we're still screwed), or at least closer than what the destroy ending offers, but that would contradict a lot of what happens at the end. In a way, if synthesis was introduced as a possibility way before during the franchise (like a Saren 2.0), it wouldn't have felt so rape-like.

My take on synthesis: http://social.biowar...9372/1#13419454

"The epilogue slides are narrated by a reaper influenced EDI whose perceives the galaxy in the way the Reapers desire her to. Like the Control narrator, EDI speaks in terms of what will be; not what is. EDI seems sure that peace will reign across the galaxy. How does she arrive at this conclusion? She has to know something we don't, consciously or otherwise. I conclude that free will as we know it, the "petty freedoms" that Saren points out, are removed from the equation. This can be taken as a good or bad thing. One could argue that we never had free will. We act and react according to chemistry. Mother Nature dictates our motivations and the illusion of choice is merely our predispostion to identify with the will of nature. Instead of maintaining conscious objectivity and knowing "this form requires chemical energy", we are identified with the natural world and think, "I am hungry". But in nature there is the survival of the fittest. Traits designed to make us successful in a dog eat dog world. There is fear, selfishness and anger. These are things which result in conflict and suffering. Instead of mother nature to guide our supposed free will the Reapers guide it in a way that is more appropriate for our level of advancement. Synthesis is therefore not an abrogation of free will. As there was never any genuine free will to begin with. Synthesis is therefore the replacement of an outdated pre-industrial psychology for a newer, more appropriate, psychology for the modern age. And then of course, you will have people who are certain that they are special and different than every other creature in the natural order. They will insist they do, in fact, possess genuine free will and will view the Reaper modifications as an abrogation of their supposed right to self-determinate. I believe Synthesis disproves this assertion in the Mass Effect universe as everyone appears happy and unfazed by the changes. I doubt anyone even comprehends their new predispositions as anything other than a new understanding of things. They don't realize they are indoctrinated. Ignorance is bliss. But some people will insist that ignorance is immoral. As a moral relativist, it's all a matter of perspective to me. It is up to the player to decide if Synthesis is good or bad.

Is there a possibility that the Reapers don't truly desire this outcome and will work to reverse it so that life, and the cycles, can continue as it was? Conceivably, yes, but there is nothing in the ending to substantiate the claim. Everyone is simply indoctrinated and happy. However, it has been indicated in this very segment that synthesis is not the Reapers' preferred outcome. Synthesis does have some issues that could result in the Reapers doing just that. For one, ALL life is synthesized. Therefore, evolution has been stifled throughout the entire galaxy. The cavemen of our day will forever be cavemen. The toad lizards of Omocron Persei 8 may never evolve into the space faring Omicronian race as their DNA is "perfected" in huskification. Plants and beasts cease to adapt and change. The possible advent of immortality may result in a return to the cycles for the sake of population control. The only difference being that everyone agrees to become Reapers. That or all life is halted as is and no new life is ever allowed to come to fruition. Both are unappealing in my opinion."

[The Twilight God]

plfranke wrote...

I agree with you. My point was more along the lines of, either say it's true, or say it's not. However, saying, "It's a valid interperetation but we're not making any dlc for it" sounds to me like they're just milking the fans who see something cryptic in that. They're tarnishing Shepard's story.

DLC isn't required for it as it takes place just as you see it. However, the Reapers are attempting to indoctrinated Shepard. Rather or not they succeed is up to the player.

In Control the cycle continues with Shepard becoming a Reaper. He'll probably be the primary persona of the human reaper.

In Synthesis everyone is indoctrinated via molecular implants. The cycle may or may not continue. I have reasons to suspect it will, but minus the extinction part. I see the current races becoming a more approachable version of the collectors.Being used to literally steer new races into the reaper trap. Imagine if the Asari actually turned out to be from the last cycle and they suddenly betrayed everyone.
 
In Destroy you kill the Reapers, but the galactic civilization as you know it ends. People are cut off and rough times are ahead, but no Reapers. Now you have to worry about Leviathans.

None of the endings are "good". But one is definitely better than the rest imo. I don't think any of this requires DLC as each ending is valid and narratively consistent. Each ending is narrated from the perspective of the narrator. Rather that be indoctrinated Shepard who doesn't know he's indoctrinated, indoctrinated EDI or Hackett.

[THEE_DEATHMASTER]

Ithurael wrote...

In any and all events Bioware has stated that there will be no more future post-breath DLC for mass effect 3. We can clamor and moan but it wont happen.

The most we can expect is mid-game dlc to expand on the story.

Face it.

The reaper mythos was wrecked, the mass effect universe was upturned, and the game was as anit-climactic as Rage, Fable II, some M Night shamalonga ding dong ending.

I wonder if the reasoning for that would be a direct sequel. Maybe they don't even want dlc bridging it because it might start immediately after?

[Astralify]

The Twilight God wrote...

Zagardal wrote...

The ending isn't nonsensical, it's just goddamn depressing.

Refusal is just being too stubborn to accept the fact that what they did wasn't enough, even if they clearly stated that they couldn't win in a conventional confrontation waaaay beforehand.

Destroy is going for the original purpose we had, but sacrificing the geth in the process. If you went renegade and didn't give a crap about them to begin with, it shouldn't be a problem. If you went paragon, this clearly should be too steep a price to pay. While refusal is all about rejecting the next stage in evolution, this is supposed to be the less extreme refusal choice. It says "we don't believe in your logic, but by choosing this we don't have a back up argument either". The whole idea of sentient synthetical intelligence being as important as organic intelligence is supposed to stop you from doing this, which would be the racist choice. Geth holocaust, plain and simple.

You don't know that the geth were sacrificed. EDI actually has reaper parts. The geth are software. They have no bluebox (or any hardware) and are technically indistinquishable from any other piece of machinery. If the fleet ships are still running then the geth should be too.

Zagardal wrote...

Control is thinking you have the will to command the reapers, which is a gamble considering that by merging with them, you might eventually assume their logic too and finish what they started. It could be millions of years later, but it could happen anyway. You save every species, but in the really really really long term something could change. It's the "paragon" choice, but for Shepard, not for the overall scheme; you might save everything you know, but that's ultimatelly just a grain of sand.

Control is being Reaperfied. Not in a million years, but right then and there. The entire epilogues reads off like your conversation with TIM. "I will.." this, "I will..." that, but can he?

Zagardal wrote...

Synthesis makes you "one with the galaxy". Supposedly, it doesn't make you a reaper, a being with a great degree of conciousness but in the end still under the control of a higher form of intelligence. You could actually argue that we are the same in some way, bound to instinct and basic human logic: we are never told that the reapers are aware of starchild, they're just aware of what they must do in order to survive. Synthesis should preserve life as a whole, and while individuality suffers (but does not disappear entirely as we see in the EC),

 
The indoctrinated retain an individual persona. And there is nothing stating that every person is mentally linked. This is speculation. What is admitted, by the Kid is that “The cycle will end. The reapers will cease their harvest. And the civilizations preserved in their forms will be connected to all of us." At best they are all connected on in that they are all connected to the Reapers... like husks.

Zagardal wrote...

it merges everybody into a new plural entity. It's basically what every religious utopia offers to us, but because we also merge with "robots", part of which are the same that apparently brought all of this upon the unsuspecting masses, most people think it's too much even if it might be the better outcome; if jesus/budha/yoda/norris came to tell us he's going to save us all but not the way you though he would, a lot of people would be pissed. I see synthesis more as an organic-synthetic hybrid geth consensus than a reaper-like overtaking. It still kinda sucks that we can't get a ambiguous disney ending (we won the way we like/millions of years from now we're still screwed), or at least closer than what the destroy ending offers, but that would contradict a lot of what happens at the end. In a way, if synthesis was introduced as a possibility way before during the franchise (like a Saren 2.0), it wouldn't have felt so rape-like.

My take on synthesis: http://social.biowar...9372/1#13419454

"The epilogue slides are narrated by a reaper influenced EDI whose perceives the galaxy in the way the Reapers desire her to. Like the Control narrator, EDI speaks in terms of what will be; not what is. EDI seems sure that peace will reign across the galaxy. How does she arrive at this conclusion? She has to know something we don't, consciously or otherwise. I conclude that free will as we know it, the "petty freedoms" that Saren points out, are removed from the equation. This can be taken as a good or bad thing. One could argue that we never had free will. We act and react according to chemistry. Mother Nature dictates our motivations and the illusion of choice is merely our predispostion to identify with the will of nature. Instead of maintaining conscious objectivity and knowing "this form requires chemical energy", we are identified with the natural world and think, "I am hungry". But in nature there is the survival of the fittest. Traits designed to make us successful in a dog eat dog world. There is fear, selfishness and anger. These are things which result in conflict and suffering. Instead of mother nature to guide our supposed free will the Reapers guide it in a way that is more appropriate for our level of advancement. Synthesis is therefore not an abrogation of free will. As there was never any genuine free will to begin with. Synthesis is therefore the replacement of an outdated pre-industrial psychology for a newer, more appropriate, psychology for the modern age. And then of course, you will have people who are certain that they are special and different than every other creature in the natural order. They will insist they do, in fact, possess genuine free will and will view the Reaper modifications as an abrogation of their supposed right to self-determinate. I believe Synthesis disproves this assertion in the Mass Effect universe as everyone appears happy and unfazed by the changes. I doubt anyone even comprehends their new predispositions as anything other than a new understanding of things. They don't realize they are indoctrinated. Ignorance is bliss. But some people will insist that ignorance is immoral. As a moral relativist, it's all a matter of perspective to me. It is up to the player to decide if Synthesis is good or bad.

Is there a possibility that the Reapers don't truly desire this outcome and will work to reverse it so that life, and the cycles, can continue as it was? Conceivably, yes, but there is nothing in the ending to substantiate the claim. Everyone is simply indoctrinated and happy. However, it has been indicated in this very segment that synthesis is not the Reapers' preferred outcome. Synthesis does have some issues that could result in the Reapers doing just that. For one, ALL life is synthesized. Therefore, evolution has been stifled throughout the entire galaxy. The cavemen of our day will forever be cavemen. The toad lizards of Omocron Persei 8 may never evolve into the space faring Omicronian race as their DNA is "perfected" in huskification. Plants and beasts cease to adapt and change. The possible advent of immortality may result in a return to the cycles for the sake of population control. The only difference being that everyone agrees to become Reapers. That or all life is halted as is and no new life is ever allowed to come to fruition. Both are unappealing in my opinion."

I Couldn't agree more.

The chaos is adaptation and evolution. Whitout the ability to change and evolve, everything will go extinct eventually. So that's what synthesis is - inevitable extinction of all life. And I thought the reapers were preserving life. Someone needs to post the "you are doing it wrong" meme again. lol

[Zagardal]

[quote]The Twilight God wrote...
You don't know that the geth were sacrificed. EDI actually has reaper parts. The geth are software. They have no bluebox (or any hardware) and are technically indistinquishable from any other piece of machinery. If the fleet ships are still running then the geth should be too.
[/quote]

Geth software was upgraded by reaper code, which is enough evidence to sugest they could be victims of space magic. After all, the kid says synthetics will be destroyed, not just reapers (AI in particular, not every synthetic piece of hardware). I could be wrong, but I guess that's the the main counter argument to the destroy option, even more than what the kid says; you can say their logic is wrong, but if you sacrifice synthetics in order to prove it, you're contradicting yourself in a way. It's

quote]The Twilight God wrote...

Control is being Reaperfied. Not in a million years, but right then and there. The entire epilogues reads off like your conversation with TIM. "I will.." this, "I will..." that, but can he?
[/quote]
What I meant with control is that even if you transform yourself into the reaper boss and make them go away, you have bonded with them. If millions of years from that point you figure out that many civilizations have destroyed themselves even if you thought they could change, shep would go "oh, I guess I f*cked up. They were right, this cycle always happens" and eventually reach the same initial conclussion; that's assuming he/she has enough will to stay true to what he/she believes. Shep might have resisted indoctrination all those years, but fusing with them is a whole other game. On the other hand, perhaps shep goes complete reaper after a few days and ends up destroying anything anyway. As I said, I believe it's a pretty big gamble.

[quote]The Twilight God wrote...

The indoctrinated retain an individual persona. And there is nothing stating that every person is mentally linked. This is speculation. What is admitted, by the Kid is that “The cycle will end. The reapers will cease their harvest. And the civilizations preserved in their forms will be connected to all of us." At best they are all connected on in that they are all connected to the Reapers... like husks.
[/quote]
Husks are that, husks, walking carcasses, the ME zombies if you will. Synthesis is supossed to retain individuality to some extent or it wouldn't be "the new solution" as the kid states, it's just the same idea as before. Indoctrinated people eventually end up as husks, but I don't believe this has that same outcome.

I say they are supossedly linked to each other because they merge with synthetics and hybrids like geth and reapers respectively, which use higher forms of communication. Perhaps this solution doesn't bring them as close in the evolutionary ladder as I think; Sure, we are almost exactly like chimpanzees but we are still worlds away from them. Perhaps this it's like that, but I believe synthesis is supossed to be the new high order.

[quote]The Twilight God wrote...

My take on synthesis: http://social.biowar...9372/1#13419454

"The epilogue slides are narrated by a reaper influenced EDI whose perceives the galaxy in the way the Reapers desire her to. Like the Control narrator, EDI speaks in terms of what will be; not what is. EDI seems sure that peace will reign across the galaxy. How does she arrive at this conclusion? She has to know something we don't, consciously or otherwise. I conclude that free will as we know it, the "petty freedoms" that Saren points out, are removed from the equation. This can be taken as a good or bad thing. One could argue that we never had free will. We act and react according to chemistry. Mother Nature dictates our motivations and the illusion of choice is merely our predispostion to identify with the will of nature. Instead of maintaining conscious objectivity and knowing "this form requires chemical energy", we are identified with the natural world and think, "I am hungry". But in nature there is the survival of the fittest. Traits designed to make us successful in a dog eat dog world. There is fear, selfishness and anger. These are things which result in conflict and suffering. Instead of mother nature to guide our supposed free will the Reapers guide it in a way that is more appropriate for our level of advancement. Synthesis is therefore not an abrogation of free will. As there was never any genuine free will to begin with. Synthesis is therefore the replacement of an outdated pre-industrial psychology for a newer, more appropriate, psychology for the modern age. And then of course, you will have people who are certain that they are special and different than every other creature in the natural order. They will insist they do, in fact, possess genuine free will and will view the Reaper modifications as an abrogation of their supposed right to self-determinate. I believe Synthesis disproves this assertion in the Mass Effect universe as everyone appears happy and unfazed by the changes. I doubt anyone even comprehends their new predispositions as anything other than a new understanding of things. They don't realize they are indoctrinated. Ignorance is bliss. But some people will insist that ignorance is immoral. As a moral relativist, it's all a matter of perspective to me. It is up to the player to decide if Synthesis is good or bad.

Is there a possibility that the Reapers don't truly desire this outcome and will work to reverse it so that life, and the cycles, can continue as it was? Conceivably, yes, but there is nothing in the ending to substantiate the claim. Everyone is simply indoctrinated and happy. However, it has been indicated in this very segment that synthesis is not the Reapers' preferred outcome. Synthesis does have some issues that could result in the Reapers doing just that. For one, ALL life is synthesized. Therefore, evolution has been stifled throughout the entire galaxy. The cavemen of our day will forever be cavemen. The toad lizards of Omocron Persei 8 may never evolve into the space faring Omicronian race as their DNA is "perfected" in huskification. Plants and beasts cease to adapt and change. The possible advent of immortality may result in a return to the cycles for the sake of population control. The only difference being that everyone agrees to become Reapers. That or all life is halted as is and no new life is ever allowed to come to fruition. Both are unappealing in my opinion."

[/quote]

That's a very interesting take on synthesis; I hadn't considered an "indoctrinated" EDI telling the story from the reaper bias. As for the ethical ramifications of the merging of species, I totally agree: in the end it's up to the player to decide if it's best to rely on our own devices to survive through the ages and let life be life, or if "garanteed" survival is the better choice even if it implies sacrificing a big part of who we are in the process.

The thing is, synthesis as an idea is way to complex for a single life form to decide. It's millions of years in the evolutionary process brought down to one final solution, which is presented to a middle aged human that can't posibly grasp the whole idea and it's consecuences, even if they presented all the facts to him/her.

[Zagardal]

Modifié par Zagardal, 05 septembre 2012 - 04:47 .

[NovaBlastMarketing]

Chris Priestly wrote...

You can keep discussing this if you wish, but it is false. Sorry.

We have aid numerous times now, we have "ended the endings". While there is more DLC for both Single and Multiplayer still to come, there is no more "endings" DLC.

Bleh...   well Hopfully   some  of the dlc you are mentioning are  a few gigs  of pure romance enhancement and  character specific romance /adventerure dlc  hint  ASHLEY  ....unless the only one who gets one   is your  I don't want to even want to mention her name favorite blue person.

Modifié par NovaBlastMarketing, 04 septembre 2012 - 11:42 .

[NickG420]

Priestly can say that because if Project X is true and it leads to a ME4 it wouldn't "technically" change the endings and he "technically" would not be lying....

[Billyg3453]

I managed to find a LEAK of a potential ending DLC for Project X. The source seems to be just as reliable as the one from the documentary as well!!

Leak?

[MattFini]

Billyg3453 wrote...

I managed to find a LEAK of a potential ending DLC for Project X. The source seems to be just as reliable as the one from the documentary as well!!

Leak?

Wow. I knew that was going to be ****e when I clicked it and it was still worse than I expected.

0/10

[The Twilight God]

Zagardal wrote...

Geth software was upgraded by reaper code, which is enough evidence to sugest they could be victims of space magic. After all, the kid says synthetics will be destroyed, not just reapers (AI in particular, not every synthetic piece of hardware). I could be wrong, but I guess that's the the main counter argument to the destroy option, even more than what the kid says; you can say their logic is wrong, but if you sacrifice synthetics in order to prove it, you're contradicting yourself in a way.

No, the designers of the Crucible would be the ones who decided to end all synthetic life. You have no choice and with the fate of the galaxy on the line personal pride shouldn't even enter the equation. They fact that you are told what the Crucible doesn't doesn't matter. Everyone would have done it if not for the fact that the Reapers installed a contingency device to keep it from auto-firing. 

As far as "Reaper code" is concerned, it's a meaningless terminology which is commonly misunderstood. The Geth simply have a code that the Reapers designed to improve their efficiency, but it doesn't make them reaper-like. For instance, say a reaper was an architech and built a house. The house wouldn't blow up just because a reaper designed it. The Geth remain programs distinguished from the reapers. Any machinery is synthetic. There is no difference between a mech, an alliance cruiser or a geth destroyer platform. The fact that all synthetics, which would include all those ships cruising past that broken relay, were not destroyed or disabled indicates that the Kid may have been fibbing alittle. It's not that far fetched actually. It doesn't want you to choose Destroy.

Zagardal wrote...

Husks are that, husks, walking carcasses, the ME zombies if you will. Synthesis is supossed to retain individuality to some extent or it wouldn't be "the new solution" as the kid states, it's just the same idea as before. Indoctrinated people eventually end up as husks, but I don't believe this has that same outcome.

A husk is a dead body with reaper nanites. When the body is still alive it is called an avatar. Reaper tech is jammed into everything, even the plants and even peoples armor. Even Joker's cap. Call it an avatar, a husk or an avuskar. But it's something that the Reapers can control and influence. (i.e. not good for us) With Leviathan perhaps it's not so bad as the Leviathans will probably be able to control everything now so maybe they'll stop the Harvest and make the Reapers play nice. Tribute is better than Harvest in my book.

Zagardal wrote...

I say they are supossedly linked to each other because they merge with synthetics and hybrids like geth and reapers respectively, which use higher forms of communication. Perhaps this solution doesn't bring them as close in the evolutionary ladder as I think; Sure, we are almost exactly like chimpanzees but we are still worlds away from them. Perhaps this it's like that, but I believe synthesis is supossed to be the new high order.

Synthesis on our own terms? Yes. Synthesis on the Reapers' terms? No.

Thing about the Reapers is that they are already synthesized from "birth". Synthesis only effects their outer shell which is equivalent to Garrus's armor being synthesized (i.e. meaningless). Synthesis may change the Intelligence it it is located within the galaxy. It could be out in dark space at their "waiting point" for all we know.

[Mystiq6]

The only thing I really have to say about this thread is that there better be some truly epic DLC planned in light of "if the fans knew what was coming, the reaction would be different" and "[you would keep your saved games forever]".

I have a hard time getting my hopes up for anything concering making the ending more satisfying to me, though.

[Zagardal]

The Twilight God wrote...

No, the designers of the Crucible would be the ones who decided to end all synthetic life. You have no choice and with the fate of the galaxy on the line personal pride shouldn't even enter the equation. They fact that you are told
what the Crucible doesn't doesn't matter. Everyone would have done it if not for the fact that the Reapers installed a contingency device to keep it from auto-firing. 

As far as "Reaper code" is concerned, it's a meaningless terminology which is commonly misunderstood. The
Geth simply have a code that the Reapers designed to improve their efficiency, but it doesn't make them reaper-like. For instance, say a reaper was an architech and built a house. The house wouldn't blow up just because a reaper designed it. The Geth remain programs distinguished from the reapers. Any machinery is synthetic. There is no difference between a mech, an alliance cruiser or a geth destroyer platform. The fact that all synthetics, which would include all those ships cruising past that broken relay, were not destroyed or disabled indicates that the Kid may have been fibbing alittle. It's not that far fetched actually. It doesn't want you to choose Destroy.

Didn't understand why you said "no". And personal pride can be considered, that's the whole point of leaving the decision to one person: everything can be taken to account. In my opinion, that's where the refusal ending enters.

It is stated that geth reach the point of adquiring individuality, and that means hardware shouldn't be trivial anymore as each platform is modified to "have true intelligence". Legion explains that he wants the same for every geth, which is to "have a soul". Perhaps if a geth gets killed you can download him again to a different platform, making my arguement pointless, but as Legion says they "become alive" (unless you kill him during the upload) I don't believe they're just software anymore.

The Twilight God wrote...

A husk is a dead body with reaper nanites. When the body is still alive it is called an avatar. Reaper tech is jammed into everything, even the plants and even peoples armor. Even Joker's cap. Call it an avatar, a husk or an avuskar. But it's something that the Reapers can control and influence. (i.e. not good for us) With Leviathan perhaps it's not so bad as the Leviathans will probably be able to control everything now so maybe they'll stop the Harvest and make the Reapers play nice. Tribute is better than Harvest in my book.

Between having my mind enslaved by an organic or ar hybrid, I don't know which I would prefer. Obviously becoming a husk isn't something to look for, but perhaps its better to die.

The Twilight God wrote...

Synthesis on our own terms? Yes. Synthesis on the Reapers' terms? No.

Thing about the Reapers is that they are already synthesized from "birth". Synthesis only effects their outer shell which is equivalent to Garrus's armor being synthesized (i.e. meaningless). Synthesis may change the Intelligence it it is located within the galaxy. It could be out in dark space at their "waiting point" for all we know.

That whole "my way or the highway" doesn't strike you as the "personal pride" you dismissed earlier? again, you're just a human, and emotions affect your judgement. It's supossed to play a part in the final decision, as you are a human till your last breath.

Reaper synthesis requires harvesting, the kid's does not. And synthesis shouldn't be meaningless if it enhances your awareness, even if it means merging to a moth or your toilet seat. Again, I'm just conjecturing with what little evidence we have, but so is everyone else. The kid could be lying out of his ass, but it's not presented as such, and I doubt BW writers would be so deceiving in that regard (and not that I wouldn't like it. It would be brilliant, but I believe they're not that cynical to begin with).

Modifié par Zagardal, 05 septembre 2012 - 05:12 .

[Zagardal]

Sorry guys, don't know what's happening but my post seems to be reapeating itself and I don't know how to delete it

Modifié par Zagardal, 05 septembre 2012 - 04:49 .

[noobcannon]

IsaacShep wrote...

So to sum up. Clevernoob, a hardcore ITer desperate for IT DLC gets an information from another hardcore ITer who claims to have sources at Bioware that there's an IT DLC coming.

as much as i love IT and support it, this meme sums it up. you sir just won the internet.

[The Twilight God]

Zagardal wrote...

Didn't understand why you said "no". And personal pride can be considered, that's the whole point of leaving the decision to one person: everything can be taken to account. In my opinion, that's where the refusal ending enters.

What I'm saying is that it isn't Shepard's decision. He didn't design the Crucible so if it wipes out all organics indescriminately that it's not him agreeing with that outcome. He has no real choice in the matter. He either gets the Crucible started and possibly take the Geth out or he doesn't and everyone, including the Geth, get taken out. His personal views don't matter and the outcome isn't a reflection of his beliefs. The situation is what it is.

Refuse, Control and Synthesis are illogical, irrational and just plain stupid. Shepard has no reason to trust the Reapers (none whatsoever) and every reason to mistrust them. And nothing has occured to justify Shepards sudden trust and change of heart (from a mere 5 minutes earlier) save for indoctrination. It is the only plot device that makes any sense. The narrative, the enter story and the plot dictate that they are "bad" endings and cannot turn out well. It doesn't matter if Shepard doesn't like what the Crucible does. Doing anythiing save Destroy is foolish and downright retarded. For a player it doesn't matter because the player doesn't actually have an entire galaxy at stake. But for Shepard, there is simply no way he would take the risk. He has to be indoctrinated to make those decisions.

Zagardal wrote...

It is stated that geth reach the point of adquiring individuality, and that means hardware shouldn't be trivial anymore as each platform is modified to "have true intelligence". Legion explains that he wants the same for every geth, which is to "have a soul". Perhaps if a geth gets killed you can download him again to a different platform, making my arguement pointless, but as Legion says they "become alive" (unless you kill him during the upload) I don't believe they're just software anymore.

All geth were individuals before. However, individuality equated to non-sentience. The code allows many programs to effective become 1 program. It "normalizes" their gestalt status. They are still programs. Their platforms do not have blueboxs.Tali even says that Geth were loading into Quarian suits cybernetics to help them develop their immune system faster. They are still the same software-only lifeforms they have always been. Just like the epilogues, Bioware expected the player to make quick emotionally charged assumptions and ignore the plain facts. They needed to tempt players away from Destroy and it would be harder to do so if only EDI, a single individual, was the only thing at stake. Going back to the epilogue I think a mention of the geth sacrifice would be warranted. Hackett says nothing about any such loss.

Zagardal wrote...

Between having my mind enslaved by an organic or ar hybrid, I don't know which I would prefer. Obviously becoming a husk isn't something to look for, but perhaps its better to die.

I don't think they become husks as husks are dead. At least the person is dead. Everyone is more like TIM in the end. Indoctrinated with Reaper nanite implants. TIM was still TIM, but he was a servant of the Reapers. Knowing or unknowlingly. Now that everyone is indoctrinated there is no third parties to make them realize it.

Zagardal wrote...

Reaper synthesis requires harvesting, the kid's does not. And synthesis shouldn't be meaningless if it enhances your awareness, even if it means merging to a moth or your toilet seat. Again, I'm just conjecturing with what little evidence we have, but so is everyone else. The kid could be lying out of his ass, but it's not presented as such, and I doubt BW writers would be so deceiving in that regard (and not that I wouldn't like it. It would be brilliant, but I believe they're not that cynical to begin with).

The Kid is the Reapers. The Reapers are the Kid. Or the Kid is Harbinger. Regardless, the Harvest is the Kid's idea. He is the prime motivator. Trying to seperate the actions of the Kid from the Reapers is absurd. The Kid is presented as a a weaver of  lies, half-truths and truths. Not to mention lies of omission. It makes several blatant lies.

Deception was was their intent or they are the worst writers in the history of literature. I highly doubt the later is the case.  

Modifié par The Twilight God, 05 septembre 2012 - 07:13 .

[LeandroBraz]

RussianZombeh wrote...

So, Clevernoob's new Indoctrination Theory documentary came out about 2 hours ago..

as if one documentary wasn't enough, this theory got two documentaries? Holy mother of god, fanatism is a b*tch..

 This theory is based on the idea that Bioware writers are infallibles, and turn every mistake (and details that aren't there) in "evidence" of Shepard indocrination. 

 If I was them, I would add a easter egg, some dialogues making joke of the possibility of Shepard being indocrinated, after all, that's what this theory is, a sad joke about fans that can't accept that their amazing game ended being not so amazing as it should be. Bioware is crazy if they thought the end again, or if they decide to give an entire DLC to this theory..   

[The Angry One]

- Rumor debunked 12 days ago

- Still being argued about in thread it was debunked in

Never change, BSN.

[LeandroBraz]

Chris Priestly wrote...

You can keep discussing this if you wish, but it is false. Sorry.

We have aid numerous times now, we have "ended the endings". While there is more DLC for both Single and Multiplayer still to come, there is no more "endings" DLC.

I thought it was obvious for everyone by now, but here we are in a "change ending" thread...

[LeandroBraz]

CronoDragoon wrote...

RussianZombeh wrote...

Common sense would actually support the exact opposite.

It's common sense that Bioware would do this to create lots of speculation which is good for them, and even more money.

And Bioware hasn't made an official statement at all regarding the Indoctrination Theory or Project X. The most they've said is "it's a viable possibility for an ending" - or something along those lines.

No, common sense does not support the opposite. It makes no sense whatsoever to devote two months worth of time - pushing back other DLCs that supposedly would give clues to an IT DLC - towards making an Extended Cut of an ending that was going to be invalidated eventually. Instead, BioWare would have calmed the ****storm of the endings by saying more explicitly that they were not finished.

BioWare's stance on IT has always been, "We want to produce content that continues to allow that interpretation if fans want to believe it." Look at how they handed the Shepard breathing scene; it's clear they want to allow the possibility of as many ending interpetations as possible. Given that, they will never release a DLC that confirms IT at the expense of the other three endings. It doesn't make sense and is not consistent with their stance regarding the endings.

this.

[LeandroBraz]

StElmo wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

You can keep discussing this if you wish, but it is false. Sorry.

We have aid numerous times now, we have "ended the endings". While there is more DLC for both Single and Multiplayer still to come, there is no more "endings" DLC.

You say this, but you're yet to see how many customers you have lost.

didn't lost me..

[The Twilight God]

The Angry One wrote...

- Rumor debunked 12 days ago

- Still being argued about in thread it was debunked in

Never change, BSN.

Yeah, Just like Chris debunked the Kasumi DLC and that the ME3 day-1 DLC character was a prothean?

Bioware has a 100% record for denying leaked information. I'm not saying there is or isn't an expansion planned, but Bioware lacks the credibility to debunk anything. Their denial means absolutely nothing. So I completely understand why people could believe it's true.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 05 septembre 2012 - 08:00 .

[essarr71]

The Twilight God wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

- Rumor debunked 12 days ago

- Still being argued about in thread it was debunked in

Never change, BSN.

Yeah, Just like Chris debunked the Kasumi DLC and that the ME3 day-1 DLC character was a prothean?

Bioware has a 100% record for denying leaked information. I'm not saying there is or isn't an expansion planned, but Bioware lacks the credibility to debunk anything. Their denial means absolutely nothing. So I completely understand why people could believe it's true.

Really have no reason to believe Project X is legit except for the fact that Bioware has denied it.

[Ithurael]

The Twilight God wrote...

Yeah, Just like Chris debunked the Kasumi DLC and that the ME3 day-1 DLC character was a prothean?

Bioware has a 100% record for denying leaked information. I'm not saying there is or isn't an expansion planned, but Bioware lacks the credibility to debunk anything. Their denial means absolutely nothing. So I completely understand why people could believe it's true.

Yeah, but all of that was before the sh*t storm. What have they lied about since? I can get the lying and hype before a massive sh*tstorm, but after? I think bioware learned that they need to be a bit more up front and direct with the fanbase.

[The Angry One]

I don't think they're being very direct, there's a lot of stringing along and being vague about things.
But outright lying after this whole ending fiasco? Haven't seen it.