Aller au contenu

Photo

I didn't feel the Reapers were impossible to defeat conventionally.


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
317 réponses à ce sujet

#1
The Angry One

The Angry One
  • Members
  • 22 246 messages
No this isn't actually a topic about conventional victory, but rather how Me3 completely failed to give me the impression that we were facing a hopeless battle.

Let's look at War of the Worlds, since ME3 tries to pay homage to it in a few ways.
Specifically, the musical. Because the music is funky: War of the Worlds, Thunderchild

If you're too lazy to listen, the gist of it is that in a naval battle against the Martian tripods, the warship Thunderchild charges at them cannons blazing. It takes down a tripod before being instantly sunk by the others.
The impression I get from this scene is that the Thunderchild and her crew went down fighting. They tried. They took one of the bad guys with them.

How does this compare to ME3? ME3's battles all give me the same impression - nobody's trying. From the opening, to Palaven, to the battles over and on Earth at the end. I see the same thing. Lethargic fools rolling over and giving up before the battle has even begun. Ridiculous tactics and random flailing about. Failure to use the technology and weapons they're supposed to have. All when the codex outright says they can do better.
We have chararacters declare the Reapers undefeatable to the point it almost becomes an informed ability. While ME1 portrayed prevailing against the odds with Sovereign well enough, ME3 seems almost apathetic about what it's supposed to portray.

With the Thunderchild, I sensed that they did their best. The might of the British Empire did everything it could - and it just wasn't enough. With ME3, all I sense is that everybody gave up before the fact, and if I want an actual sense of proper resistance I have to read the codex. I didn't feel it.

Modifié par The Angry One, 24 août 2012 - 03:31 .


#2
Mike 9987

Mike 9987
  • Members
  • 2 097 messages
It's not impossible, i agree. Just have every cycle kill an amount of reapers that is one more reaper than is created during that harvesting cycle in a full frontal assault. Eventually, they will be wiped out.

Modifié par Mike 9987, 24 août 2012 - 03:36 .


#3
CronoDragoon

CronoDragoon
  • Members
  • 10 408 messages
I am not sure how people gave up. Palaven, Earth, and Thessia all show bloody wars of attrition being fought on the ground. And they are losing troops by the millions day by day. That's how they know they can't win.

Tactics I can agree with since no one seemed to try anything except "fight trench battles." The Miracle at Palaven codex is the one example of our side doing something clever.

#4
Conniving_Eagle

Conniving_Eagle
  • Members
  • 6 013 messages
"Conventional victory being impossible is a thematic betrayal in of itself. Up until this point, the player was meant to believe that they could defeat the Reapers on their own terms. Conventional Victory = Impossible was only [arguably] established in the third game.

Prior, we are given the sense of "Our cycle is different." The Reapers' effectiveness at 'reaping' comes not from their firepower or military capabilities, it comes from their patience and ruthless calculus. In the previous cycles, the Reapers would pour through the Citadel, killing the galaxy's leaders and obtaining all the necessary information on advanced organic life. More importantly, they gain total control of the Mass Relays. The Reapers then proceed shut down all the relays, only opening one at a time to systematically wipe out its respective local civilization(s). This is what Sovereign meant when it said "We are legion. Our numbers will darken the skies of every world." Sovereign didn't mean this would occur simultaneously, they don't have the numbers for that. The Reapers' success is the result of cutting off a system's communication, then swarming it, planet by planet.

The Reapers have already lost this critical advantage. I'm curious to know how they learned anything about this galaxy, they didn't capture the Citadel until the end of the game. How did they ascertain which planets were colonies, homeworlds, the location of Arcturus Station, each race's level of technology and capabilities (they obviously prepared for the Turians). There are the Collectors, but they operated in the Terminus systems, and only collected genetic information.

With the destruction of Sovereign, the Turians developed Thanix technology. Commander Shepard retrieved information and Reaper tech from the derelict dreadnought and the Collector base. What about Arrival? What the hell was the point of that DLC? Give the Alliance and Council another 6 months to sit on their asses doing nothing? You think the Reapers would've been weakened from having to make a journey spanning thousands of light years from dark space to the milky way.

Javik comments that this cycle might have a chance, that the reason the Prothean Empire failed was due to its hegemony, and even then, the Protheans came close to defeating the Reapers.
Remember the end of Mass Effect 2?

www.youtube.com/watch

The music is not menacing or depressing, there isn't some long fixation on the Reapers to get the point across to the player "Yeah, look at how huge their fleet is, they are unstoppable." The music is at first subtle, but it is upbeat, optimistic, and hopeful. We then see Shepard glance out into space, with composed look on their face, as if to say "Bring it on." Then the camera switches switches to show the Reaper fleet in dark space, descending upon the Milky Way, but keep in mind the music, it is epic, upbeat, optimistic. It is foreshadowing what an epic and grand scale ME3 would be for the player (one of the best executed endings to get someone excited for a sequel IMO).

ME3 could have been so much more, there was no need for a super weapon, because the antagonists weren't established as invincible (which is poor writing). If done correctly, conventional victory wouldn't have broken Mass Effect's lore or made the Reapers look like pushovers. It was only in the third game that they writers decided "Nope. They're unstoppable, there's no way you can beat the Reapers." Even then, you can still make the argument that we didn't need the Crucible to win in ME3, there wasn't enough information on the Reapers to disprove it."

Pretty much sums up my feelings, even if it is a bit unrefined looking back.

Modifié par Conniving_Eagle, 24 août 2012 - 03:41 .


#5
MegaSovereign

MegaSovereign
  • Members
  • 10 794 messages

Mike 9987 wrote...

It's not impossible, i agree. Just have every cycle kill an amount of reapers that is one more reaper than is created during that harvesting cycle in a full frontal assault. Eventually, they will be wiped out.


They create more than one.

They make one capital ship and then turn the rest into destroyers.

#6
Memnon

Memnon
  • Members
  • 1 405 messages
Again, we keep getting hung up on the term "conventional" - as a Spectre, Shepard is supposed to excel at finding unconventional means to overcoming hardships. If it was established since ME1 that we would never be able overcome the Reaper threat using our own ingenuity, grit, hard work, determination, etc. then that's a failing of the writers ...

Modifié par Stornskar, 24 août 2012 - 03:40 .


#7
The Angry One

The Angry One
  • Members
  • 22 246 messages

CronoDragoon wrote...

I am not sure how people gave up. Palaven, Earth, and Thessia all show bloody wars of attrition being fought on the ground. And they are losing troops by the millions day by day. That's how they know they can't win.

Tactics I can agree with since no one seemed to try anything except "fight trench battles." The Miracle at Palaven codex is the one example of our side doing something clever.


That's all part of my point. Show, don't tell.
The Miracle at Palaven? It's all in the codex. 100% of it.
Now I'm not saying I don't like reading the codex, because I do. But this still relegates these events to the sideline.

The fact is every battle we SEE is lethargic.

#8
garrusfan1

garrusfan1
  • Members
  • 8 047 messages
I kinda agree on that about earth but the Turians were destroying a lot of the reapers. But some stuff was ridiculous like how FTL will make it impossible to ram a reaper

#9
Tealjaker94

Tealjaker94
  • Members
  • 2 947 messages

garrusfan1 wrote...

I kinda agree on that about earth but the Turians were destroying a lot of the reapers. But some stuff was ridiculous like how FTL will make it impossible to ram a reaper

Their explanation was BS, but it makes sense that you can't hit anything at FTL speeds. Technically, if you're traveling at FTL or even just the speed of light, your mass is 0 or less. J=Ft. F=ma. m=0. F=0a=0. J=0t=0. You would cause no impulse just like light causes none to us.

#10
The Angry One

The Angry One
  • Members
  • 22 246 messages
Everyone, while I totally agree that conventional victory (even through unconventional means) should be possible.
This thread is about how, even though BioWare wanted a sense of hopelessness, they completely failed to sell the idea.

garrusfan1 wrote...

I kinda agree on that about earth but the Turians were destroying a lot of the reapers.


Again, that was offscreen.
How many Sovereigns do we actually see get destroyed on screen? One. In a scene so messy it looks like it just got bored and self-destructed, and it cuts away before it's completely destroyed.

But some stuff was ridiculous like how FTL will make it impossible to ram a reaper


That was in-universe speculation of something that works in theory but not in practice.

#11
garrusfan1

garrusfan1
  • Members
  • 8 047 messages
The angry on I agree I would liked to have seen it

#12
Conniving_Eagle

Conniving_Eagle
  • Members
  • 6 013 messages
But how would FTL collisions even work? When ships travel at FTL they have zero (or negative?) mass.

#13
rex285

rex285
  • Members
  • 195 messages
I feel everyone forgets that this cycle has the ability to see every reaper's location in the milky way in real time. That is a unimaginable advantage that this cycle has over the previous.

Source: http://masseffect.wi...erometric_Array
"Installing the interferometric array into the Crucible's systems results in a real-time map of the entire galaxy, including the position of each and every Reaper in the Milky Way."

#14
Ticonderoga117

Ticonderoga117
  • Members
  • 6 751 messages
Of course, because if every soldier and general and admiral didn't hold the stupid ball the need for the Crucible would feel even more contrived and the whole Catalyst bit would feel even worse, and remember, that is the entire point of ME3.

To crush Shepard's personality and get him to the Catalyst.

#15
CronoDragoon

CronoDragoon
  • Members
  • 10 408 messages

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Prior, we are given the sense of "Our cycle is different."


Our cycle was different. We won. The diversity that Javik comments on pays off in a final battle where the galaxy's strength is enough to dock the Crucible and thus win the war. We were the first cycle to unite completely, and that's why we won the battle at Earth.

ME3 could have been so much more, there was no need for a super weapon, because the antagonists weren't established as invincible (which is poor writing). If done correctly, conventional victory wouldn't have broken Mass Effect's lore or made the Reapers look like pushovers. It was only in the third game that they writers decided "Nope. They're unstoppable, there's no way you can beat the Reapers." Even then, you can still make the argument that we didn't need the Crucible to win in ME3, there wasn't enough information on the Reapers to disprove it."


Most games could have been so much more. ME1 and 2 could have been so much more. Doesn't mean they aren't great games.

Anyway, I think the Crucible is a better way to defeat the Reapers than conventional victory because it gives the previous cycles a more active role in the destruction of the Reapers and shows that their struggles were not in vain.

#16
Tealjaker94

Tealjaker94
  • Members
  • 2 947 messages

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

But how would FTL collisions even work? When ships travel at FTL they have zero (or negative?) mass.

That's what I just posted about. You would technically generate zero force at light speed and cause zero impulse.

#17
AresKeith

AresKeith
  • Members
  • 34 128 messages
and wasn't the Geth preparing to fight the Reapers since the end of ME2?

#18
Taboo

Taboo
  • Members
  • 20 234 messages
Mac Walters just wanted you to use the giant phallus to fire one of three beams when stimulated accordingly.

All end with a mess everywhere, just like real life.

Except that everyone's hair is hit in Synthesis.

#19
Fixers0

Fixers0
  • Members
  • 4 434 messages
Here's a simple question

If logical, conventional tactics aren't even tried then how do we immediately discount their feasibility against the Reapers?

#20
Conniving_Eagle

Conniving_Eagle
  • Members
  • 6 013 messages
This was Bioware's method of selling the idea of a hopeless war (which was a bad idea):

-A few capital ships land planetside-

-ZOMFG WE LOST THESSIA! NO! NOW WE'RE ****ED!-

OOC Shepard: FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU. NOW I'M GONNA HAVE TO BE A DOUCHE TO EVERYBODY FOR A WHILE.

Modifié par Conniving_Eagle, 24 août 2012 - 03:51 .


#21
Baronesa

Baronesa
  • Members
  • 1 934 messages

Fixers0 wrote...

Here's a simple question

If logical, conventional tactics aren't even tried then how do we immediately discount their feasibility against the Reapers?


Because ART

and SPACE MAGIC

#22
Tealjaker94

Tealjaker94
  • Members
  • 2 947 messages

AresKeith wrote...

and wasn't the Geth preparing to fight the Reapers since the end of ME2?

Yeah, but they got ****ed up by the quarians. Even after I told the quarians to leave them the hell alone.

#23
Conniving_Eagle

Conniving_Eagle
  • Members
  • 6 013 messages
Winning implies victory, and victory implies defeating your opponent.

Control: Nope.
Synthesis: Nope.
Refuse: Nope.
Destroy: About as much as the Cold War was a victory for the U.S. even then, destroying the Reapers sends the galaxy back into the dark age.

#24
MegaSovereign

MegaSovereign
  • Members
  • 10 794 messages
-Turian conventional tactics is to overwhelm their enemy with brute force. That's not really that relevant against the Reapers.

-Krogan and Vorcha are ground forces. Reapers have infinite supply of ground forces.

-Asari are good at infiltration. Pretty irrelevant against the Reapers.

-Salarians want to win battles by avoiding them. Irrelevant against the Reapers.

-Volus, Elcor, and Hanar. Lol nuff said.

#25
The Angry One

The Angry One
  • Members
  • 22 246 messages

Fixers0 wrote...

Here's a simple question

If logical, conventional tactics aren't even tried then how do we immediately discount their feasibility against the Reapers?


And here is the crux of the issue.

People say they're sick of us going on about thanix cannons for instance.
Here's an idea. Show ships using thanix cannons. Take down a few Reapers. Then show how that doesn't matter.

Let me make this clear again I don't like the idea of no conventional victory, but if you're going to make it hopeless, then SHOW ME it's hopeless. Let's see thanix cannons left and right. Let's see the Destiny Ascension chew up a Sovereign class or two before being taken down. Don't just tell me conventional warfare won't win.