317 réponses à ce sujet

[Rocktel]

Someone probably is seeing this and thinking "Guess there wasn't enough sad music and diabolus ex machina."

But I agree. The Reapers were underwhelming compared to Mass Effect 1 and Sovereign.

[Clayless]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Feeling that it's not impossible to defeat the Reapers conventionally doesn't change the the reality of the situation, which is that it was impossible.

There is exactly one EDI, and only she was capable of co-ordinating the quarian fleet's firepower to help destroy the Reaper on Rannoch. Ditto on EDI being the one saving grace on Earth that allowed Shepard to make the final push. As I recall from the final battle, we were having our butts handed to us by the Reapers while making a rather desperate last stand. Unless someone suddenly pulls a couple thousand friendly unshackled AIs out of nowhere, we're effectively doomed.

A happy little Codex entry about the Miracle on Palaven and plucky kakliosaur-riding krogans or seeing how all our species have pulled together means nothing. Thessia's complete and utter destruction is a LOT more indicative of what happens if you try to fight the Reapers conventionally.

The Protheans couldn't do it, and they ruled a galactic empire with access to advanced technlogies beyond those of the current cycle. Based on what Javik said, the Protheans managed to hold out for a fair amount of time, but eventually they fell. I fully expect that if we tried it, we'd be destroyed even faster - exactly like the Refuse ending.

*checks the failure in the Refuse ending*

Yep, just like that.

[Grub Killer8016]

Angry One, you come up with so many points that I have to agree with After seeing the Normandy in ME1 kill Sovereign with one shot, I knew we had a chance.

[3DandBeyond]

Jayleia wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

I like complaining about the endings as much as the next guy, but here's a question for CV'ers: What makes you think our cycle has a better chance than all the others in terms of beating the Reapers conventionally?

By "conventional" we do not mean lining up in wall of battle formations and pounding away like morons.  We know the Reapers are powerful and have significant advantages.  But we seem to know more about the Reapers than even the Protheans, and they fought Reapers for centuries.

But our victories, by normal standards have been unconventional.  However, the Crucible was choosing what conditions the Reapers would ALLOW us to have our galaxy back...or they keep killing us.  That's not a victory.

Exactly.  It's the difference between lining up and fighting in formation in say the American Revolution, and employing guerilla tactics of hiding and shooting from behind obstacles.  You know shooting at exploding tubes from a safe distance or walking toward them like a moron because you need to be 2 feet away from the tube for your shots to hit it.

The trailers for the game should have been changed to reflect the true nature of this.  Not Take Earth Back with lots of fighting, but Ask For Earth Back (Nicely) with shots of the Boss Conversation between Shepard and the kid.  I can see it now-the drama as Shepard hobbles toward the kid, the pathos of the kid saying, "No" to Shepard.  The anticipation and adrenaline rush as the kid excitedly explains just how Shepard can help him.  Truth in advertising.

[The Twilight God]

Jayleia wrote...

Starkid:  We brought you up to use this machine, you can use it to destroy us if you want, but it will kill all synthetics, and even you are part synthetic.

Shepard: How about you just stop shooting us and let us shoot you?

Starkid: NO!  If you want to destroy us, you do it the way WE tell you to, or we harvest you.

Shepard:  That's so stupid I don't know where to begin...

Holo-Reaper:  SO BE IT.

So, yes, we were allowed to have our galaxy back in destroy.

It did not bring him up there. In low EMs situations it asks him why he is even there.

You are disabling whatever is preventing it from firing. The Crucible would have done the same thing automatically if the Reapers hadn't set up a device to stop it from firing.

How can the Crucible doing what it was made to do killing them in the way they tell you? There is no way except orange explosion that kills all synthetics. Nothing the Kid does effects that fact.

[The Twilight God]

Grub Killer8016 wrote...

Angry One, you come up with so many points that I have to agree with After seeing the Normandy in ME1 kill Sovereign with one shot, I knew we had a chance.

So the rest of those ships all shooting at it didn't count?

http://www.youtube.c...bwtY6ROo#t=225s

[ZerebusPrime]

The Twilight God wrote...

Grub Killer8016 wrote...

Angry One, you come up with so many points that I have to agree with After seeing the Normandy in ME1 kill Sovereign with one shot, I knew we had a chance.

So the rest of those ships all shooting at it didn't count?

http://www.youtube.c...bwtY6ROo#t=225s

Of course not.  They were scenery ships. :happy:

[Jamie9]

Unfortunately, that's how sci-fi has always worked. The time to get between planets? Varies depending on what works for the plot.

Shield strength? Varies depending on what works for the plot.

Fleet strength? Varies depending on what works for the plot.

In the end, sci-fi sets up rules, but they almost never fully adhere to them.

[AlanC9]

Not just sci-fi. Fantasy works that way too, most of he time.

[InvincibleHero]

Choose the refuse ending and you have your answer.

To some other points

1. How soon people forget ILos relay was one way only. So a functioning Earth relay would still send it to its actual destination.

2. The protheans built said relay. The protheans could never master the crucible yet this cycle did. That means they have enough tech no how to replicate what they did.

3. Seriously look at your collection of forces just a few dreadnaughts and bits and pieces of the whole armadas of every major race that was already mostly defeated. Their fleets are left defending what little they have left with what they have left. You do not have these ships gifted to Hackett and Shepard. Other than the quarians ships held together with duct tape and bailing wire there is no substantial number. The geth it is questionable what use they'd be in any protracted battle anyways. They could be against you since they have reaper code.

4. The purpose of that fleet was to protect the crucible period. There isn't enough to engage the reapers on any front and win. If the reapers consolidated their forces then they would rofl stomp the remaining forces of the allies.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Angry One wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

More like:

Do Something!
Shoot? Move? Who cares? Just do something!

That too. This has been a problem since ME1. Who can forget the Destiny Ascension being built up in it's every appearance only to wallow around like a beached whale and do absolutely nothing in the final battle.
You'd think that several years later after many had pointed this out we'd get that fixed, but nope.

One thing they forgot to mention about the Destiny Ascension.... you know the main gun?  Firing it causes the power to the entire ship to go down. Do you know how long it takes to power up that ship? That's why they never fire it. (my thoughts. I can't think of any other rational reason)

And on most ships they installed the Thanix cannons but forgot to connect the firing buttons. That's why you never see them fire. They're only on Frigates and Fighters. They didn't think to put them on anything larger. Good for "get in close and finish them off" moves. It's in the ME wiki.

The entire purpose of Arrival was to demonstrate what happens when a mass relay is destroyed to set up the original ending so when Mac destroyed the relays: "It's a wasteland."

[LanceSolous13]

It was never said to be impossible til Mass Effect 3.

Vigil in Mass Effect 1 outright states that, had Sorvign just outright attacked the Citadel, the galaxy would have united to kill him and he would die instantly. This gave the theme of the series; Uniting everyone despite their differences to overcome an obsticle.

Mass Effect 2 features a multi-xeno species Crew with everyone uniting together defite their differences and bonds between them (Jack/Miranda, Tali/Legion, Mordin/Wrex) to defeat a comon enemy; The Collectors. The Theme was still there.

Mass Effect 3, We're told in the first hour of the game that the six months we paid for with the Batarians in ME2: Arrival went to waste as nothing happened in those six months and we're also putting our faith in a 'Prothean Super Weapon' which we apparently don't know what it does (somehow. This makes no sense at all) and then, the next second, everyone thinks it'll kill the Reapers. Conventional Victory and the Theme are suddenly gone from Mass Effect entirely.

[Clayless]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

It was never said to be impossible til Mass Effect 3.

Vigil in Mass Effect 1 outright states that, had Sorvign just outright attacked the Citadel, the galaxy would have united to kill him and he would die instantly. This gave the theme of the series; Uniting everyone despite their differences to overcome an obsticle.

Mass Effect 2 features a multi-xeno species Crew with everyone uniting together defite their differences and bonds between them (Jack/Miranda, Tali/Legion, Mordin/Wrex) to defeat a comon enemy; The Collectors. The Theme was still there.

Mass Effect 3, We're told in the first hour of the game that the six months we paid for with the Batarians in ME2: Arrival went to waste as nothing happened in those six months and we're also putting our faith in a 'Prothean Super Weapon' which we apparently don't know what it does (somehow. This makes no sense at all) and then, the next second, everyone thinks it'll kill the Reapers. Conventional Victory and the Theme are suddenly gone from Mass Effect entirely.

Pretty sure "combining to kill 1 Reaper, and things that aren't Reapers" doesn't equal "killing all the Reapers that vastly outnumber us".

[KiwiQuiche]

True, they got knocked down in ME3. In ME1 and 2 I felt like they could hand their asses to us without a problem. Sovereign was gigantic and kicked some ass on the Alliance while he was preoccupied with controlling Saren and he took out quite a few ships. Harbinger was capable of controlling an entire drone unit even though he was all the way out in Dark Space.

Then it was just stupid in ME3 where you manage to get one killed by a giant worm and another who couldn't even shoot a human who was right in front of it. Leave conduit beam on. Don't shoot Normandy even though it's hovering right in Harbinger's face. They are so retarded, it did seem like you could eventually beat them. But then pretty much everyone was in ME3 so...

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Choose the refuse ending and you have your answer.

To some other points

1. How soon people forget ILos relay was one way only. So a functioning Earth relay would still send it to its actual destination. 

2. The protheans built said relay. The protheans could never master the crucible yet this cycle did. That means they have enough tech no how to replicate what they did.

3. Seriously look at your collection of forces just a few dreadnaughts and bits and pieces of the whole armadas of every major race that was already mostly defeated. Their fleets are left defending what little they have left with what they have left. You do not have these ships gifted to Hackett and Shepard. Other than the quarians ships held together with duct tape and bailing wire there is no substantial number. The geth it is questionable what use they'd be in any protracted battle anyways. They could be against you since they have reaper code.

4. The purpose of that fleet was to protect the crucible period. There isn't enough to engage the reapers on any front and win. If the reapers consolidated their forces then they would rofl stomp the remaining forces of the allies.

The problem was the ROTFLMAO Retcon of the Council, all Scientists, Engineers, Metallurgists, etc., immediately after ME1 ended whose IQs dropped to Chimpanzee levels and couldn't tell the difference between Sovereign and the Geth debris. "Ah, yes, 'reapers'. We've dismissed that myth." And even the idea that none of your team, including your prothean expert would even think of not turning their omnitool on to record the conversation with Vigil, I mean how many megabytes would that take up? maybe 5MB at most? I think the thing has more than sufficient memory for audio and video. Or even that Shepard didn't bother to record it. For f*** sake it was a goddam PROTHEAN VI that was still functioning!!!!

No, that was just an excuse used to hang Shepard out to dry for ME2, and set up everything for the big fail.

It's such bull**** bad writing I just can't take the story line as a serious story after that. The Council becomes the comic relief in the story. Shepard is a bad ass action hero. If you play this as a serious goody two shoes paragon who is helping everyone out you're not doing it right. This is a serious renegon type. It's fun time. This is Arnold time whether you're femShep or manShep.

You get to ME3 you try to have fun despite the dreams about vent boy. The galaxy is being invaded by pests and Shepard is taking out the trash.

Then the stupid ending comes up. The last 10 minutes.... OMG.... this one does not sacrifice to become a god. This one does not sacrifice to make everyone green. This one sends the reapers to Hell. If there was a way to do it without shooting a goddam red tube all the better.

[AlanC9]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The entire purpose of Arrival was to demonstrate what happens when a mass relay is destroyed to set up the original ending so when Mac destroyed the relays: "It's a wasteland."

Really? If (pre-EC) Bio really meant us to think that the relays destroyed every system with a relay, where did you figure the Normandy crashed?

And are you actually saying you believed that was what happened pre-EC? Nobody's been admitting that lately.

[LanceSolous13]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...
Pretty sure "combining to kill 1 Reaper, and things that aren't Reapers" doesn't equal "killing all the Reapers that vastly outnumber us".

He was talking about the Reaper Threat; not just Sovrign. The Reapers win by taking out the Citadel first and shutting off the Relays making every divided and confused with no form of government or supply lines.

The Reapers can't do that this time. They have to use the back BACK door to get into the galaxy. We have a HUGE advantage over their usual plan. They're (cuttle)fish out of water here.

[AlanC9]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Pretty sure "combining to kill 1 Reaper, and things that aren't Reapers" doesn't equal "killing all the Reapers that vastly outnumber us".

But Lance is talking about themes, not the realities of the universe. Which Bio could have made differently.

I agree that killing one Reaper doesn't say much about defeating all of them, but that wasn't the point of the argument.

Unless I misread him, that is.

Modifié par AlanC9, 25 août 2012 - 03:44 .

[Clayless]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...
Pretty sure "combining to kill 1 Reaper, and things that aren't Reapers" doesn't equal "killing all the Reapers that vastly outnumber us".

He was talking about the Reaper Threat; not just Sovrign. The Reapers win by taking out the Citadel first and shutting off the Relays making every divided and confused with no form of government or supply lines.

The Reapers can't do that this time. They have to use the back BACK door to get into the galaxy. We have a HUGE advantage over their usual plan. They're (cuttle)fish out of water here.

Except nobody listened to Shepard, so the advantage was minimal at best.

[palician]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

"Conventional victory being impossible is a thematic betrayal in of itself. Up until this point, the player was meant to believe that they could defeat the Reapers on their own terms. Conventional Victory = Impossible was only [arguably] established in the third game.

Prior, we are given the sense of "Our cycle is different." The Reapers' effectiveness at 'reaping' comes not from their firepower or military capabilities, it comes from their patience and ruthless calculus. In the previous cycles, the Reapers would pour through the Citadel, killing the galaxy's leaders and obtaining all the necessary information on advanced organic life. More importantly, they gain total control of the Mass Relays. The Reapers then proceed shut down all the relays, only opening one at a time to systematically wipe out its respective local civilization(s). This is what Sovereign meant when it said "We are legion. Our numbers will darken the skies of every world." Sovereign didn't mean this would occur simultaneously, they don't have the numbers for that. The Reapers' success is the result of cutting off a system's communication, then swarming it, planet by planet.

The Reapers have already lost this critical advantage. I'm curious to know how they learned anything about this galaxy, they didn't capture the Citadel until the end of the game. How did they ascertain which planets were colonies, homeworlds, the location of Arcturus Station, each race's level of technology and capabilities (they obviously prepared for the Turians). There are the Collectors, but they operated in the Terminus systems, and only collected genetic information.

With the destruction of Sovereign, the Turians developed Thanix technology. Commander Shepard retrieved information and Reaper tech from the derelict dreadnought and the Collector base. What about Arrival? What the hell was the point of that DLC? Give the Alliance and Council another 6 months to sit on their asses doing nothing? You think the Reapers would've been weakened from having to make a journey spanning thousands of light years from dark space to the milky way.

Javik comments that this cycle might have a chance, that the reason the Prothean Empire failed was due to its hegemony, and even then, the Protheans came close to defeating the Reapers.
Remember the end of Mass Effect 2?

www.youtube.com/watch

The music is not menacing or depressing, there isn't some long fixation on the Reapers to get the point across to the player "Yeah, look at how huge their fleet is, they are unstoppable." The music is at first subtle, but it is upbeat, optimistic, and hopeful. We then see Shepard glance out into space, with composed look on their face, as if to say "Bring it on." Then the camera switches switches to show the Reaper fleet in dark space, descending upon the Milky Way, but keep in mind the music, it is epic, upbeat, optimistic. It is foreshadowing what an epic and grand scale ME3 would be for the player (one of the best executed endings to get someone excited for a sequel IMO).

ME3 could have been so much more, there was no need for a super weapon, because the antagonists weren't established as invincible (which is poor writing). If done correctly, conventional victory wouldn't have broken Mass Effect's lore or made the Reapers look like pushovers. It was only in the third game that they writers decided "Nope. They're unstoppable, there's no way you can beat the Reapers." Even then, you can still make the argument that we didn't need the Crucible to win in ME3, there wasn't enough information on the Reapers to disprove it."

Pretty much sums up my feelings, even if it is a bit unrefined looking back.

This

[The Twilight God]

AlanC9 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The entire purpose of Arrival was to demonstrate what happens when a mass relay is destroyed to set up the original ending so when Mac destroyed the relays: "It's a wasteland."

Really? If (pre-EC) Bio really meant us to think that the relays destroyed every system with a relay, where did you figure the Normandy crashed?

And are you actually saying you believed that was what happened pre-EC? Nobody's been admitting that lately.

Mac Walters said there would be no post game DLC because "It's a wasteland". His own words in an interview.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

AlanC9 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The entire purpose of Arrival was to demonstrate what happens when a mass relay is destroyed to set up the original ending so when Mac destroyed the relays: "It's a wasteland."

Really? If (pre-EC) Bio really meant us to think that the relays destroyed every system with a relay, where did you figure the Normandy crashed?

And are you actually saying you believed that was what happened pre-EC? Nobody's been admitting that lately.

I quoted Mac Walters from his interview in February 2012 where he remarked about the state of the galaxy when asked about post ending DLC and when on about there's no point. "It's a wasteland."

That was the original intent. 10,000 year dark age. The Normandy crash landed on some planet Gilligan in some goddess knows where and everyone died eventually because insufficient numbers on the Normandy to sustain a population. This was the sequel.

[Katosu]

The reason why a conventional victory is impossible is because only in ME3 do they establish it as impossible. In otherwords, the way they wrote it is the only thing that made it impossible.

Talented writing could have made for a great war of attrition with sacrifice / heroism / artistic integrity, but instead we recieved a war of convenience.

EDITED** Some coherence issues. 

Modifié par Katosu, 25 août 2012 - 03:56 .

[Ranger1337]

In Mass Effect 1, nearly the entire Alliance fleet present at the Citadel was wiped out by Sovereign, a single Reaper. How do you think the rest of the galaxy will fair against billions of those? If you do the Math, Sovereign destroyed around 8-10 Alliance ships (the ones mentioned by Shepard to Khalisah Al-Jilani in Mass Effect 2) . So if there were lets say 10 billion Reapers in total, the galactic fleet would have suffered 100 billion losses .

Also, there may be several cycles before the humans where the galaxy might have also attempted to unite themselves against the Reapers without the Crucible at the time. But what happened? They failed. What makes you so sure that they did not do what Shepard has done in the trilogy? Reinforcing the Citadel, Uniting Ships, War Assets, Upgrading Weapons, Studying Reaper Tech, even an ancient Cerberus organisation? That's the catch. You never know if someone like Shepard did all these before in previous cycles (or even better) but they failed ultimately.

And everyone did not just "roll over and give up". It's shown throughout the game. Look at the Quarian fleets, look at Palaven, look at Sur'Kesh and Thessia . They all sustained devastating losses during the Reaper war. Not to mention how the Qwib-Qwib went down fighting to destroy one AA gun on Rannoch. The fact is, the different races were fighting to the death. It's just shown off-screen. It all happens while you eat Turkey Sandwiches with Kaidan on the Citadel.

[LanceSolous13]

AlanC9 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Pretty sure "combining to kill 1 Reaper, and things that aren't Reapers" doesn't equal "killing all the Reapers that vastly outnumber us".

But Lance is talking about themes, not the realities of the universe. Which Bio could have made differently.

I agree that killing one Reaper doesn't say much about defeating all of them, but that wasn't the point of the argument.

Unless I misread him, that is.

I was sort of talking about both.

Vigil was talking about the Reapers being discovered (Their main advantage was a surprise attack) and everyone uniting to take down the Reaper THREAT. Not just Sovrign.