317 réponses à ce sujet

[Bobby Peru]

There's no conclusion to the battle, really. You spend all your time amassing a huge fleet and building all that momentum ... I don't see how you go into priority earth thinking that's all just something to throw into the meat grinder. Showing the last fatal blows to the fleet would've been a big opportunity for added drama, but most importantly for closure.

Great to see the WotW musical getting a shoutout btw. Still listen to Spirit of Man every now and then

Modifié par Bobby Peru, 24 août 2012 - 03:56 .

[Taboo]

We don't go back to the Dark Age in Destroy.

Everything can be repaired and easily. The Catalyst states this. The epilogue slides also dismiss this.

They retconned a lot of ****. So much for not changing things.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 24 août 2012 - 03:56 .

[WarGriffin]

The Angry One wrote...

No this isn't actually a topic about conventional victory, but rather how Me3 completely failed to give me the impression that we were facing a hopeless battle.

Let's look at War of the Worlds, since ME3 tries to pay homage to it in a few ways.
Specifically, the musical. Because the music is funky: War of the Worlds, Thunderchild

If you're too lazy to listen, the gist of it is that in a naval battle against the Martian tripods, the warship Thunderchild charges at them cannons blazing. It takes down a tripod before being instantly sunk by the others.
The impression I get from this scene is that the Thunderchild and her crew went down fighting. They tried. They took one of the bad guys with them.

How does this compare to ME3? ME3's battles all give me the same impression - nobody's trying. From the opening, to Palaven, to the battles over and on Earth at the end. I see the same thing. Lethargic fools rolling over and giving up before the battle has even begun. Ridiculous tactics and random flailing about. Failure to use the technology and weapons they're supposed to have. All when the codex outright says they can do better.
We have chararacters declare the Reapers undefeatable to the point it almost becomes an informed ability. While ME1 portrayed prevailing against the odds with Sovereign well enough, ME3 seems almost apathetic about what it's supposed to portray.

With the Thunderchild, I sensed that they did their best. The might of the British Empire did everything it could - and it just wasn't enough. With ME3, all I sense is that everybody gave up before the fact, and if I want an actual sense of proper resistance I have to read the codex. I didn't feel it.

...Because they didn't want to do a War Story. A Grim tale of War, Struggle, Death and Hope against a powerful but not invincble enemy. They did the star wars route, Yeah you have everybody fighting like hell but the real action is away from these massive battles.... except Star wars still had it's hero fight in those major battles. The only major fight Shepard gets involved in is Earth and Maybe thessia since that one that felt like they wee trying to make a bleak battle.

The Reaper War is on the back burner. They Make the Reapers straight up unbeatable so Shepard can run around doing fetch quests instead of doing that depressing fighting through the trenches thing and earning real victories... Gotta keep the Reapers aura of menace... without making Shepard lose all the time. Hence why Cerberus is pretty much the main bad guy for 80% of the game. It give Shepard someone he can triumph over and deliver corny one liners too.

The invasion of Earth isn't built up too, it just happens so you have Prolouge level
Mars fall
Palaven is burning... except your on a Moon,... why are the Turian's trying to hold the moon when the Reapers have already gotten to palaven?
Sur'Kesh... did the Reapers ever get around to fighting there?
Tuchanka... Reaper killed by a worm... actaully scratch that Why the **** didn't the Reaper just destroy the Shroud? Cause that's the only reason it be Parked RIGHT THERE... It be different if it was a random scout that just happen to land there... but it isn't It's stated to be guarding the Shroud... why the **** would the Reapers bother guarding something they most likely themselve can build anew. Destroy the Shroud, rob Shepard and the Krogan of the Genophage cure... cause The Reapers would have to know that, if Cerberus knows it -Yeah the whole Cerberus is indoctrinated from the start. is really coming back to bite you in the ass now-

Rannoch pretty much spells out that the only Reason the Reaper wasn't pulverized by the Quarian fleets first volley was they weren't trying to vaporize Shepard.

The Reaper's strength varies to to the point of inconsistency

Cause apparently if a Reaper dies Shepard in some way must be connected to it's death

That's why in the Big battle over earth you See Reapers gets thier tendrils blow off but not destroyed

[Ledgend1221]

MegaSovereign wrote...
Reapers are too stong! I give up and eagrly await my death.

[Conniving_Eagle]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Prior, we are given the sense of "Our cycle is different."

Our cycle was different. We won. The diversity that Javik comments on pays off in a final battle where the galaxy's strength is enough to dock the Crucible and thus win the war. We were the first cycle to unite completely, and that's why we won the battle at Earth.

ME3 could have been so much more, there was no need for a super weapon, because the antagonists weren't established as invincible (which is poor writing). If done correctly, conventional victory wouldn't have broken Mass Effect's lore or made the Reapers look like pushovers. It was only in the third game that they writers decided "Nope. They're unstoppable, there's no way you can beat the Reapers." Even then, you can still make the argument that we didn't need the Crucible to win in ME3, there wasn't enough information on the Reapers to disprove it."

Most games could have been so much more. ME1 and 2 could have been so much more. Doesn't mean they aren't great games.

Anyway, I think the Crucible is a better way to defeat the Reapers than conventional victory because it gives the previous cycles a more active role in the destruction of the Reapers and shows that their struggles were not in vain.

ME1 already honored the previous cycles. If it wasn't for the Protheans everybody would've been dead a long time ago.

[MegaSovereign]

Ledgend1221 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...
Reapers are too stong! I give up and eagrly await my death.

Was that suppose to be funny? 

[Ticonderoga117]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...
ME1 already honored the previous cycles. If it wasn't for the Protheans everybody would've been dead a long time ago.

Actually, we (humans) wouldn't for a few thousand years yet, but then when the time comes again, yeah, screwed.

[Ledgend1221]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...
Reapers are too stong! I give up and eagrly await my death.

Was that suppose to be funny? 

Did you laugh?

[The Angry One]

WarGriffin wrote...

...Because they didn't want to do a War Story. A Grim tale of War, Struggle, Death and Hope against a powerful but not invincble enemy. They did the star wars route, Yeah you have everybody fighting like hell but the real action is away from these massive battles.... except Star wars still had it's hero fight in those major battles. The only major fight Shepard gets involved in is Earth and Maybe thessia since that one that felt like they wee trying to make a bleak battle.

The problem is you can either have a Star Wars victorious battle against the odds, or a War of the Worlds grim story of inevitable and total defeat.
Not both. These things are incompatible. No, Empire Strikes Back doesn't count as it's the middle of the story that leads to total victory in the finale.

[CronoDragoon]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Winning implies victory, and victory implies defeating your opponent.

Control: Nope.
Synthesis: Nope.
Refuse: Nope.
Destroy: About as much as the Cold War was a victory for the U.S. even then, destroying the Reapers sends the galaxy back into the dark age.

lol @ Destroy sending the galaxy into the dark age. No, it doesn't. Did you remember to download the EC?

Control you defeat your opponent. Synthesis it is unclear because you just end up doing what he wanted but was never able to do. Refuse you lose.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Taboo-XX wrote...

We don't go back to the Dark Age in Destroy.

Everything can be repaired and easily. The Catalyst states this. The epilogue slides also dismiss this.

They retconned a lot of ****. So much for not changing things.

Yet Destroy doesn't show the Relays getting rebuilt like in Control and Synthesis. The two most knowledgable races on the Relays (Reapers and the Geth) are gone. No one understands Relay technology. How are they going to fix them? How are they going to re-link them when relays are hundreds (and thousands) of lightyears apart?

[MegaSovereign]

Ledgend1221 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...
Reapers are too stong! I give up and eagrly await my death.

Was that suppose to be funny? 

Did you laugh?

No.

I did find it amusing that instead of countering my post you changed it entirely to what you would have liked it to be.

[CronoDragoon]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

ME1 already honored the previous cycles. If it wasn't for the Protheans everybody would've been dead a long time ago.

ME1 had the Protheans helping delay the Reapers. ME3 has every previous cycle directly contribute towards ending the Reaper threat. It's different.

[shepdog77]

Taboo-XX wrote...

We don't go back to the Dark Age in Destroy.

Everything can be repaired and easily. The Catalyst states this. The epilogue slides also dismiss this.

They retconned a lot of ****. So much for not changing things.

I'm pretty sure they never intended to send the galaxy back to the dark ages, they just weren't thinking/were rushed when putting in the "relays blowing up" scene.  Hell, they might have even reused the exact animation from Arrival, just with tweaks.  

I think we the fans were just "speculating" the Dark Age thing because of how bland the OE's were, coupled with the relays blowing up.  

So glad they fixed that in the EC.

[Taboo]

That was the intention. Walters intended for everything to be a "wasteland". He stated this in either an interview or tweet.

So yeah, we got out of a rut.

[MegaSovereign]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

We don't go back to the Dark Age in Destroy.

Everything can be repaired and easily. The Catalyst states this. The epilogue slides also dismiss this.

They retconned a lot of ****. So much for not changing things.

Yet Destroy doesn't show the Relays getting rebuilt like in Control and Synthesis. The two most knowledgable races on the Relays (Reapers and the Geth) are gone. No one understands Relay technology. How are they going to fix them? How are they going to re-link them when relays are hundreds (and thousands) of lightyears apart?

Ductape and hope.

In all seriousness,  the relays are still largely intact in the Destroy EC ending. They won't have to rebuild everything from scratch.

They rebuilt the Citadel, which is basically a big Mass Relay.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 24 août 2012 - 04:05 .

[The Angry One]

Yes, I'm sure that Mac Walters wasn't intending for destroy to trigger a galactic dark age when he wrote "galactic dark age".

Edit: Actually all the endings were supposed to. It seems the intention was to put symbolism ahead of the world and characters for reasons known only to Walters and Hudson, with the Normandy crew starting again in the garden of eden.

Modifié par The Angry One, 24 août 2012 - 04:06 .

[CronoDragoon]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

We don't go back to the Dark Age in Destroy.

Everything can be repaired and easily. The Catalyst states this. The epilogue slides also dismiss this.

They retconned a lot of ****. So much for not changing things.

Yet Destroy doesn't show the Relays getting rebuilt like in Control and Synthesis. The two most knowledgable races on the Relays (Reapers and the Geth) are gone. No one understands Relay technology. How are they going to fix them? How are they going to re-link them when relays are hundreds (and thousands) of lightyears apart?

What makes you think they need to be relinked? In Destroy all that is gone is the ring and a piece at the back of the relay. And the Catalyst tells you that anything affected by the Destroy wave can be easily rebuilt. That was an EC line added to assure Destroyers that the relays wouldn't be a problem.

[Conniving_Eagle]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Winning implies victory, and victory implies defeating your opponent.

Control: Nope.
Synthesis: Nope.
Refuse: Nope.
Destroy: About as much as the Cold War was a victory for the U.S. even then, destroying the Reapers sends the galaxy back into the dark age.

lol @ Destroy sending the galaxy into the dark age. No, it doesn't. Did you remember to download the EC?

Control you defeat your opponent. Synthesis it is unclear because you just end up doing what he wanted but was never able to do. Refuse you lose.

Did you remember your lore?

Imagine this: I make contact with a tribe in the jungle, and I give them a Jeep (with a lot of gas) as a gift, then teach them how to drive. One day in the jungle, I catch a parasite, I spend the next week ill and then I die. Do you think that tribe will have any clue what to do when the engine breaks down? Will they know where to go to buy more gas? No, they won't, because they're cut-off from the rest of the world and the only person who had competent knowledge about the Jeep is dead.

[AresKeith]

shepdog77 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

We don't go back to the Dark Age in Destroy.

Everything can be repaired and easily. The Catalyst states this. The epilogue slides also dismiss this.

They retconned a lot of ****. So much for not changing things.

I'm pretty sure they never intended to send the galaxy back to the dark ages, they just weren't thinking/were rushed when putting in the "relays blowing up" scene.  Hell, they might have even reused the exact animation from Arrival, just with tweaks.  

I think we the fans were just "speculating" the Dark Age thing because of how bland the OE's were, coupled with the relays blowing up.  

So glad they fixed that in the EC.

actually Mac intended to make the Galaxy a Wasteland by destroying the Relays

[CronoDragoon]

The Angry One wrote...

Yes, I'm sure that Mac Walters wasn't intending for destroy to trigger a galactic dark age when he wrote "galactic dark age".

Mac Walters also said that it was bad times for everyone on the Citadel, which was later retconned by BioWare. Pretty much everything head-scratching said or implied by Mac has been handwaved or retconned since.

[WarGriffin]

AresKeith wrote...

shepdog77 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

We don't go back to the Dark Age in Destroy.

Everything can be repaired and easily. The Catalyst states this. The epilogue slides also dismiss this.

They retconned a lot of ****. So much for not changing things.

I'm pretty sure they never intended to send the galaxy back to the dark ages, they just weren't thinking/were rushed when putting in the "relays blowing up" scene.  Hell, they might have even reused the exact animation from Arrival, just with tweaks.  

I think we the fans were just "speculating" the Dark Age thing because of how bland the OE's were, coupled with the relays blowing up.  

So glad they fixed that in the EC.

actually Mac intended to make the Galaxy a Wasteland by destroying the Relays

Why

Cause he wanted to make Dragon Age in Space!

[The Angry One]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Yes, I'm sure that Mac Walters wasn't intending for destroy to trigger a galactic dark age when he wrote "galactic dark age".

Mac Walters also said that it was bad times for everyone on the Citadel, which was later retconned by BioWare. Pretty much everything head-scratching said or implied by Mac has been handwaved or retconned since.

Clearly. I was just responding to the point about original intent.

[Ticonderoga117]

AresKeith wrote...
actually Mac intended to make the Galaxy a Wasteland by destroying the Relays

Can you have a wasteland if everything effected by the relay destruction is completely destroyed?

[Conniving_Eagle]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

We don't go back to the Dark Age in Destroy.

Everything can be repaired and easily. The Catalyst states this. The epilogue slides also dismiss this.

They retconned a lot of ****. So much for not changing things.

Yet Destroy doesn't show the Relays getting rebuilt like in Control and Synthesis. The two most knowledgable races on the Relays (Reapers and the Geth) are gone. No one understands Relay technology. How are they going to fix them? How are they going to re-link them when relays are hundreds (and thousands) of lightyears apart?

Ductape and hope.

In all seriousness,  the relays are still largely intact in the Destroy EC ending. They won't have to rebuild everything from scratch.

They rebuilt the Citadel, which is basically a big Mass Relay.

Do you see them using the Citadel as a Mass Relay? They repaired the superstructure. Even fully intact they don't know how to activate the Citadel, which is now stuck in Sol, not that they would want to.

Are they going to move it back to the Serpent Nebula eventually, too?