317 réponses à ce sujet

[JBPBRC]

The Angry One wrote...

No this isn't actually a topic about conventional victory, but rather how Me3 completely failed to give me the impression that we were facing a hopeless battle.

Pretty much this. They could've done a much better job portraying how hopeless it was. More than just saying "Oh noes, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE" they could've actually shown it happening. Take a page out of Javik's book and have mass indoctrinated slaves rise up against the Citadel, with your EMS determing how well or how poorly C-Sec handles the situation. (EMS doing something? Shock! Gasp!)

Better yet, make that the start of the game, with the Reapers sticking to their usual "take out the heart of galactic civilization" plan. Have the Reapers succeed in poisoining Tuchanka. Make the Quarians take massive casualties while the Geth still remain firmly under Reaper control. Forcibly indoctrinate Anderson and even a few squadmates and have you fight against them. WH40k this thing, make it grimdark!

If they had done even a few of these things, it would've created the impression that the Reapers are serious business. Well, that and giving Cerberus less screentime. And not introducing Star Kid. And--

*goes on and on and on about Reaper failings*

[Ticonderoga117]

maaaze wrote...
generic?..the a whole fleet is raining down on earth is not generic for me...it is an image of incredible loss.

That's more applicable to the ground scenery since that's in EVERY game about war, but yeah, it's still generic.
Quake 4
Warhammer 40K: Space Marine
Starship Troopers
Star Trek
Star Wars

I mean, yeah it shows loss, but its not "You are doomed, kiss your butts goodbye!"
It's more "Yeah, the hard part is here, time to get to work Shepard and save the Galaxy again."

[Jayleia]

maaaze wrote...

generic?..the a whole fleet is raining down on earth is not generic for me...it is an image of incredible loss.

Yeah, but there's no attachment to it.  It's a bunch of ships, its generic...now...if you'd shown the Normandy broken in half, THAT would have a lot more emotional pull, or the Destiny Ascension

[Ticonderoga117]

Jayleia wrote...
Yeah, but there's no attachment to it.  It's a bunch of ships, its generic...now...if you'd shown the Normandy broken in half, THAT would have a lot more emotional pull, or the Destiny Ascension

Another good way to put it. I know I would've felt more if they showed the ship my Spacer's mom was on.
Alas... random pieces of ships.

[JBPBRC]

Jayleia wrote...

maaaze wrote...

generic?..the a whole fleet is raining down on earth is not generic for me...it is an image of incredible loss.

Yeah, but there's no attachment to it.  It's a bunch of ships, its generic...now...if you'd shown the Normandy broken in half, THAT would have a lot more emotional pull, or the Destiny Ascension

Not even those would have a pull. We see the Normandy (SR-1) get completely obliterated in ME2, and some players already saw the Destiny Ascension get blown to bits in ME1.

Kill off Anderson instead. That'll send a message. Have the Citadel taken as well, with the mass relays shut off.

[Tom1029]

Guerrilla Tactics don't exist in the ME universe unless it is to prolong a fight they will lose anyway.
****** goddam future marine bastards

[The Angry One]

CronoDragoon wrote...

If it wasn't clear to me after the beginning, it was clear to me at Palaven that we couldn't win. If you talk about seeing, I was staring slack-jawed at the visual of a burning Palaven, Garrus talking about millions dead in the first few days, and all the gigantic Reapers walking around unfazed by our ground troops.

So I disagree. I think the game did a good job of portraying the overwhelming force of the Reapers.They don't have to be portrayed as invincible, just like a basketball team doesn't have to win 100-0. 100-10 still means the other team never had a chance.

You know what else we saw at Palaven?



If I see the Reapers win, it should be because they demonstrate they're an overwhelming force.
Not because our side demonstrates that they have all the combat capabilities of an ostrich.

[CronoDragoon]

The Twilight God wrote...


The slides are narrated by a single entity who talks about what they think, hope or plan will happen. None of the events in the slides actually occur in game. It's just wishful thinking. That is why they insist on keeping the relays fubar no matter what. Everyone is cut off. Galactic civilization as we know it is over. It is a "dark age". There are whole worlds in ruin and you think their first priority is sending repair fleets via FTL to fix thousands of relays? Imagine how much time it will take to FTL to just the short distance secondary relays. The primary relays will take decades or centuries to reach. They'd have to make liveships like the Quarians to get people out there and tech their children how to fix them becaus the initial crews would probably die off before they get there.

What? The slides are clearly meant to provide closure for the characters as BioWare said they would in the EC. Those slides are all canon for their endings.

Communication still works. Once the Sol scientists figure out how to fix their relay, they can put out the plans to whoever is closest to each respective relay. Not much of the relay gets destroyed, either, so we aren't talking about a massive undertaking to repair them (they don't have to rebuild them).

And yes, fixing relays would be extremely high priority for everyone involved, since the only planets capable of sustaining themselves are colony planets. Everyone else will die of starvation without help, meaning the relay economy is essential to their recovery.

[CronoDragoon]

The Angry One wrote...

If I see the Reapers win, it should be because they demonstrate they're an overwhelming force.
Not because our side demonstrates that they have all the combat capabilities of an ostrich.

Thanix Cannons would somehow even the odds? Not even close.

[JBPBRC]

AresKeith wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

No this isn't actually a topic about conventional victory, but rather how Me3 completely failed to give me the impression that we were facing a hopeless battle.

Let's look at War of the Worlds, since ME3 tries to pay homage to it in a few ways.
Specifically, the musical. Because the music is funky: War of the Worlds, Thunderchild

If you're too lazy to listen, the gist of it is that in a naval battle against the Martian tripods, the warship Thunderchild charges at them cannons blazing. It takes down a tripod before being instantly sunk by the others.
The impression I get from this scene is that the Thunderchild and her crew went down fighting. They tried. They took one of the bad guys with them.

How does this compare to ME3? ME3's battles all give me the same impression - nobody's trying. From the opening, to Palaven, to the battles over and on Earth at the end. I see the same thing. Lethargic fools rolling over and giving up before the battle has even begun. Ridiculous tactics and random flailing about. Failure to use the technology and weapons they're supposed to have. All when the codex outright says they can do better.
We have chararacters declare the Reapers undefeatable to the point it almost becomes an informed ability. While ME1 portrayed prevailing against the odds with Sovereign well enough, ME3 seems almost apathetic about what it's supposed to portray.

With the Thunderchild, I sensed that they did their best. The might of the British Empire did everything it could - and it just wasn't enough. With ME3, all I sense is that everybody gave up before the fact, and if I want an actual sense of proper resistance I have to read the codex. I didn't feel it.

Yea, great analysis, but you're forgetting one thing which makes this whole OP obselete.

"This isn't a time for strategy or tactics. We fight or we die."

Because of Shepard's leadership qualities presented here, instead of everyone working as a team and getting the upper hand on isolated Reapers. They all individually tried to take on the Reapers with predator pistols in a passionate rage.

haven't you heard the predator pistols are like the Halo 1 pistol lol

What blasphemy is this?

[The Angry One]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

If I see the Reapers win, it should be because they demonstrate they're an overwhelming force.
Not because our side demonstrates that they have all the combat capabilities of an ostrich.

Thanix Cannons would somehow even the odds? Not even close.

How do we know? They're never used. That's my point.

If the Thunderchild had suddenly forgot it had guns and tried to ram a tripod, that would've been a pretty crappy scene and we'd have to assume they were a bunch of twits. Same thing here. Forgetting the main weapon that both ME2 and ME3 say they have just makes them look like idiots.

[Harorrd]

Took like what? 3 capital ships to kill Sovereign in Mass effect 1? And thats because they where forced into close combat. Sheppard unites the galaxy, 10 000 ships,

[3DandBeyond]

Zulufoxtrot wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

I agree with this. If they wanted to say it was impossible then show that really being so. Don't put crap in the game that says, hey stupid reapers are vulnerable and then ignore it. Don't tell me when I see the loading screen that I'm winning against them. Don't just have Shepard from the start run around screaming, "it's hopeless, hold me, er let's hold hands and stand together". Don't have Anderson act like getting to the council will make a good darned bit of difference. It's death by a thousand cuts. Why the frack would Anderson think they should just pull forces away from Palaven or Thessia to help Earth? Why not abandon Earth, send all forces to make a stand at Palaven?

If it was impossible then show some real tactics (oh yeah it wasn't about that) that is not working. Don't show morons running straight at reapers with their pistols blazing being cut down.

I mean why the heck was everyone just running straight at Harbinger at the Conduit? No one thought to maybe distract him, especially after Joker made the pick up. Hmmm, "hey Commander. He's not shooting at me, want me to circle around him and make him pay attention to me?" Yeah, if he shot down the Normandy that would hurt, but the idea was to get Shepard or somebody up the conduit.

They didn't clearly make the case that impossible meant that-my war asset screen (with over 9000EMS) says my chances of victory are even. Sounds doable. But, noooooo.

That and pretty much every pre-release trailer made it seem like you would be retaking Earth using conventional forces, so I don't think it's something they had really ruled out until someone got hooked on hardcore drugs and decided to give us the Catalyst. I know Trailers aren't representative of what should be expected in-game all that much, but you'd think the general idea would've related more. 

It's all about taking back Earth which boils down to asking glow boy to give it back, puh lease.

What is the real conundrum here is you say conventional victory and everyone gets hung up on the word conventional-some of the same people will tell you to imagine your own ending-but imagination seemed to stop the first time the word impossible was implied.  Conventional is merely a word being used to state non-magical-space-fantasy tactics.  It means thinking and applying unique methods and all the compiled knowledge of the reapers against them to at least try.  But, mention conventional and you are told, "nooooo, it's impossible."  Even worse you are told it's silly or ridiculous or unrealistic and I have to laugh.  What do you call the space imp?  Yeah, that's reality.  It's more like a bad LSD trip. 

But, guns and the use of imaginative, innovative techniques are fantasy and fantasy is now reality.  Tell me again exactly how does the kid (a crazy AI) impart full knowledge of organics to synthetics?  Explain to me how that is reality and shooting guns is fantasy.  Explain to me how the whole galaxy of trillions of people just instantly signed on to making the big unknown space gizmo with an unknown function without one solitary protest and that's reality, yet trying to use one single item within the Reaper Vulnerabilities codex is fantasy.

I'm not saying that shooting guns at reapers wouldn't be like spitting into a hurricane, but I'm saying don't tell me that the use of known weapons is not reality and act like the crucible, the kid, and the choices (oh my) are.  One is real reality, even if futile.  The other is pure fantasy and futile in another way-partly because it is so unreal.

[Ticonderoga117]

The Angry One wrote...
You know what else we saw at Palaven?



If I see the Reapers win, it should be because they demonstrate they're an overwhelming force.
Not because our side demonstrates that they have all the combat capabilities of an ostrich.

More like:

Do Something!
Shoot? Move? Who cares? Just do something!

[Ticonderoga117]

Harorrd wrote...

Took like what? 3 capital ships to kill Sovereign in Mass effect 1? And thats because they where forced into close combat. Sheppard unites the galaxy, 10 000 ships,

I think you're missing quite a few. Remember, the Quarian flotilla numbered about 50,000 before the war, and Shepard can get the vast majority of it.

[The Angry One]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

More like:

Do Something!
Shoot? Move? Who cares? Just do something!

That too. This has been a problem since ME1. Who can forget the Destiny Ascension being built up in it's every appearance only to wallow around like a beached whale and do absolutely nothing in the final battle.
You'd think that several years later after many had pointed this out we'd get that fixed, but nope.

[AresKeith]

The Angry One wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

If I see the Reapers win, it should be because they demonstrate they're an overwhelming force.
Not because our side demonstrates that they have all the combat capabilities of an ostrich.

Thanix Cannons would somehow even the odds? Not even close.

How do we know? They're never used. That's my point.

If the Thunderchild had suddenly forgot it had guns and tried to ram a tripod, that would've been a pretty crappy scene and we'd have to assume they were a bunch of twits. Same thing here. Forgetting the main weapon that both ME2 and ME3 say they have just makes them look like idiots.

that also goes with what I told him about the Council being retconned into Idiots about the Reapers, even though the Turians were already building Thanix cannons after ME1

[CronoDragoon]

The Angry One wrote...

How do we know? They're never used. That's my point.

If the Thunderchild had suddenly forgot it had guns and tried to ram a tripod, that would've been a pretty crappy scene and we'd have to assume they were a bunch of twits. Same thing here. Forgetting the main weapon that both ME2 and ME3 say they have just makes them look like idiots.

The war scenes in the game are meant to accent the extent to which the Reapers are winning. You think that using Thanix Cannons and such in these scenes but still having Reapers winning overwhelmingly would have created a better illusion of power. That makes sense. But the purpose of these scenes was enough to tell me that the writers thought Thanix cannons ultimately did not matter in the degree to which the Reapers would destroy us. 

[Ticonderoga117]

The Angry One wrote...
That too. This has been a problem since ME1. Who can forget the Destiny Ascension being built up in it's every appearance only to wallow around like a beached whale and do absolutely nothing in the final battle.
You'd think that several years later after many had pointed this out we'd get that fixed, but nope.

It would be fine if it was only the Ascension or that one random Turian ship, but every, single, person and ship in the war completely forgets common sense. It's sad.

[3DandBeyond]

The Angry One wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

More like:

Do Something!
Shoot? Move? Who cares? Just do something!

That too. This has been a problem since ME1. Who can forget the Destiny Ascension being built up in it's every appearance only to wallow around like a beached whale and do absolutely nothing in the final battle.
You'd think that several years later after many had pointed this out we'd get that fixed, but nope.

And all capital ships have been outfitted with Javelin Missiles.

That picture of them not shooting is precisely the problem.  Run head on into a reaper and do nothing.  Where'd they train for this, Barney's Burgers?

[CronoDragoon]

AresKeith wrote...

that also goes with what I told him about the Council being retconned into Idiots about the Reapers, even though the Turians were already building Thanix cannons after ME1

The Council were always idiots. It's not a retcon that once the threat had passed they sought to downplay the events and handwave the Reaper fears to the general public.

As for the Turians building Thanix Cannons, yeah they could have shown those Thanix Cannons in action on Palaven. Didn't mean they weren't in fact using them or that it's a retcon, unless ME3 makes explicit that nobody has Thanix Cannons. If they do, then I agree.

[Ticonderoga117]

CronoDragoon wrote...
The war scenes in the game are meant to accent the extent to which the Reapers are winning. You think that using Thanix Cannons and such in these scenes but still having Reapers winning overwhelmingly would have created a better illusion of power. That makes sense. But the purpose of these scenes was enough to tell me that the writers thought Thanix cannons ultimately did not matter in the degree to which the Reapers would destroy us. 

They are handicapped though in that it seems everyone uses the tactic of "Just move forward and occasionally shoot them" and has the survival instincts of a lemming.

The final battle cutscene shows this quite well.

[The Angry One]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The war scenes in the game are meant to accent the extent to which the Reapers are winning. You think that using Thanix Cannons and such in these scenes but still having Reapers winning overwhelmingly would have created a better illusion of power. That makes sense. But the purpose of these scenes was enough to tell me that the writers thought Thanix cannons ultimately did not matter in the degree to which the Reapers would destroy us. 

Well honestly you shouldn't be doing that. You shouldn't be doing the writer's work for them.
I'm sure it was their intent to show a hopeless battle, but that's not how it appears.

3DandBeyond wrote...

And all capital ships have been outfitted with Javelin Missiles.

That
picture of them not shooting is precisely the problem.  Run head on
into a reaper and do nothing.  Where'd they train for this, Barney's
Burgers?

The absolute worst one is the scene they added in the EC, where both an Alliance cruiser and a Reaper decide shooting things is for cowards and engage in a macho wrestling match.

Modifié par The Angry One, 24 août 2012 - 07:46 .

[JBPBRC]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

How do we know? They're never used. That's my point.

If the Thunderchild had suddenly forgot it had guns and tried to ram a tripod, that would've been a pretty crappy scene and we'd have to assume they were a bunch of twits. Same thing here. Forgetting the main weapon that both ME2 and ME3 say they have just makes them look like idiots.

The war scenes in the game are meant to accent the extent to which the Reapers are winning. You think that using Thanix Cannons and such in these scenes but still having Reapers winning overwhelmingly would have created a better illusion of power. That makes sense. But the purpose of these scenes was enough to tell me that the writers thought Thanix cannons ultimately did not matter in the degree to which the Reapers would destroy us. 

Again this is only because as TAO said, the galaxy is shown to have the combat capabilties of an ostrich. The final battle in particular is horrendous, with Hackett just sending everyone in a giant cavalry line a-chargin' at the Reapers.

Those random Star Destroyers in Empire Strikes Back that were chasing after the Falcon showed more sense, and they were tricked into almost ramming each other at the speed of snail.

[silentassassin264]

If you saw the Sovereign fight in ME1 when Sovereign was completely invincible to everything thrown at it until a fluke that would most definitely not happen when all the Reapers were here and thought you could beat them conventionally, you are crazy.