317 réponses à ce sujet

[Tom1029]

The Angry One wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

If it wasn't clear to me after the beginning, it was clear to me at Palaven that we couldn't win. If you talk about seeing, I was staring slack-jawed at the visual of a burning Palaven, Garrus talking about millions dead in the first few days, and all the gigantic Reapers walking around unfazed by our ground troops.

So I disagree. I think the game did a good job of portraying the overwhelming force of the Reapers.They don't have to be portrayed as invincible, just like a basketball team doesn't have to win 100-0. 100-10 still means the other team never had a chance.

You know what else we saw at Palaven?



If I see the Reapers win, it should be because they demonstrate they're an overwhelming force.
Not because our side demonstrates that they have all the combat capabilities of an ostrich.

Yes, this. The Thanix cannon is the best we can do to replicate reaper guns and it is used a total of TWICE to beat the living crap out of a collector ship that we saw tank through everything else we threw at it.

[CronoDragoon]

The Angry One wrote...

Well honestly you shouldn't be doing that. You shouldn't be doing the writer's work for them.
I'm sure it was their intent to show a hopeless battle, but that's not how it appears.

It appears like that to me, so we'll just disagree on that. But I don't really think I was doing any of the writers' work for them. The scenes are just quick 10 second cutscenes to show you "the Reapers are winning." They aren't meant to portray an actual beginning, middle, or end of a particular battle, or to convey any message beyond that.

[AresKeith]

CronoDragoon wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

that also goes with what I told him about the Council being retconned into Idiots about the Reapers, even though the Turians were already building Thanix cannons after ME1

The Council were always idiots. It's not a retcon that once the threat had passed they sought to downplay the events and handwave the Reaper fears to the general public.

As for the Turians building Thanix Cannons, yeah they could have shown those Thanix Cannons in action on Palaven. Didn't mean they weren't in fact using them or that it's a retcon, unless ME3 makes explicit that nobody has Thanix Cannons. If they do, then I agree.

it was still a retcon when they talk to Shepard about it in ME2 and completely acts like it never happened like that, after they already knew it was a Reaper

[JBPBRC]

silentassassin264 wrote...

If you saw the Sovereign fight in ME1 when Sovereign was completely invincible to everything thrown at it until a fluke that would most definitely not happen when all the Reapers were here and thought you could beat them conventionally, you are crazy.

The thread isn't about conventional victory.

[jumpingkaede]

 If Bioware showed thanix cannons taking out reapers new gamers would be confused.  "Wait, if we have thanix cannons why are we scared of Reapers?"

That's why you can't have your precious thanix cannons.  That's also why there's no real mention of Harbinger.  "Why is there a glowy-eyed Reaper?"

(Ignore that one of the other Reapers does talk about Harbinger, lol.)

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 24 août 2012 - 07:52 .

[CronoDragoon]

JBPBRC wrote...
Again this is only because as TAO said, the galaxy is shown to have the combat capabilties of an ostrich. The final battle in particular is horrendous, with Hackett just sending everyone in a giant cavalry line a-chargin' at the Reapers.

Those random Star Destroyers in Empire Strikes Back that were chasing after the Falcon showed more sense, and they were tricked into almost ramming each other at the speed of snail.

That's not why. If the galaxy had employed clever tactics and used Thanix cannons, it would not have made any difference except an aesthetic one during minor 10-20 second battle cutscenes meant to set the mood for the war.

[chemiclord]

The big issue I have with a conventional victory over the Reapers is that... shockingly... it would kinda reject a lot of themes from the previous two games.

It renders the consequences of galactic leaders ignoring Shepard's warnings irrelevant, it takes any ramifications of the railroading and burying their heads in the sand out of the picture. To me, part of the reason that conventional victory is impossible is BECAUSE the galaxy didn't want to face the threat and focused on their petty "personal" issues.

And that's kinda kinda a problem with the narrative as a whole from start to finish... there are SO MANY themes that run through this trilogy, many of which kinda contradict each other, and I'm not sure there IS any way to reconcile them.

[JBPBRC]

jumpingkaede wrote...

 If Bioware showed thanix cannons taking out reapers new gamers would be confused.  "Wait, if we have thanix cannons why are we scared of Reapers?"

That's why you can't have your precious thanix cannons.  That's also why there's no real mention of Harbinger.  "Why is there a glowy-eyed Reaper?"

(Ignore that one of the other Reapers does talk about Harbinger, lol.)

Ah yes. We all keep forgetting that ME3 is the best entry point in the series, one need not pay attention to the frivilous things like previous events or lore! Haha! Silly franchise gamers. :wizard:

[CronoDragoon]

AresKeith wrote...

it was still a retcon when they talk to Shepard about it in ME2 and completely acts like it never happened like that, after they already knew it was a Reaper

That's not a retcon. It was scumbag politics.

[JBPBRC]

CronoDragoon wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...
Again this is only because as TAO said, the galaxy is shown to have the combat capabilties of an ostrich. The final battle in particular is horrendous, with Hackett just sending everyone in a giant cavalry line a-chargin' at the Reapers.

Those random Star Destroyers in Empire Strikes Back that were chasing after the Falcon showed more sense, and they were tricked into almost ramming each other at the speed of snail.

That's not why. If the galaxy had employed clever tactics and used Thanix cannons, it would not have made any difference except an aesthetic one during minor 10-20 second battle cutscenes meant to set the mood for the war.

I agree. But as TAO said, show that. Show more of that. Acknowledge that the galaxy has made progress and then crush it under a Reaper's heel (tentacle). Less offscreen Codex gibberish that looks like a different parallel universe than the game we're playing.

[jumpingkaede]

The other problem is a gaming mechanics problem.

That is: Shepard is a POWERHOUSE ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

When you're on the Turian moon, Shepard basically shrugs off every Reaper. Even on Thessia, Shepard basically defeats everyone besides Kai Leng and we can all agree that was bogus.

There needed to be a battle where there was a countdown or a background timer where Shepard and team gets worn down by infinite Reaper troops and has to retreat, but done in an organic way so it's not a Kai Leng copout. (Something similar to Vrmire).

Otherwise, EVERY FIGHT Shepard gets involved in he wins. How can you convey "hopelessness" when Shepard is unstoppable?  The Reapers send everything they have on Earth at Shepard to keep him from firing those thanix missiles (...) or whatever.  How many waves of Reapers was that?  And not a single fatality was taken by Shepard or his team.

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 24 août 2012 - 07:53 .

[3DandBeyond]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...
The war scenes in the game are meant to accent the extent to which the Reapers are winning. You think that using Thanix Cannons and such in these scenes but still having Reapers winning overwhelmingly would have created a better illusion of power. That makes sense. But the purpose of these scenes was enough to tell me that the writers thought Thanix cannons ultimately did not matter in the degree to which the Reapers would destroy us. 

They are handicapped though in that it seems everyone uses the tactic of "Just move forward and occasionally shoot them" and has the survival instincts of a lemming.

The final battle cutscene shows this quite well.

This is it exactly.  This is the only tactic they use.

[CronoDragoon]

JBPBRC wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...
Again this is only because as TAO said, the galaxy is shown to have the combat capabilties of an ostrich. The final battle in particular is horrendous, with Hackett just sending everyone in a giant cavalry line a-chargin' at the Reapers.

Those random Star Destroyers in Empire Strikes Back that were chasing after the Falcon showed more sense, and they were tricked into almost ramming each other at the speed of snail.

That's not why. If the galaxy had employed clever tactics and used Thanix cannons, it would not have made any difference except an aesthetic one during minor 10-20 second battle cutscenes meant to set the mood for the war.

I agree. But as TAO said, show that. Show more of that. Acknowledge that the galaxy has made progress and then crush it under a Reaper's heel (tentacle). Less offscreen Codex gibberish that looks like a different parallel universe than the game we're playing.

Well, I agree with the "I wanted cooler, more thought-out cutscenes" thing (who wouldn't?) but I don't think the cutscenes failed to convince me of the overwhelming power of the Reaper threat. I suppose that is where I disagree.

[CronoDragoon]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...
The war scenes in the game are meant to accent the extent to which the Reapers are winning. You think that using Thanix Cannons and such in these scenes but still having Reapers winning overwhelmingly would have created a better illusion of power. That makes sense. But the purpose of these scenes was enough to tell me that the writers thought Thanix cannons ultimately did not matter in the degree to which the Reapers would destroy us. 

They are handicapped though in that it seems everyone uses the tactic of "Just move forward and occasionally shoot them" and has the survival instincts of a lemming.

The final battle cutscene shows this quite well.

This is it exactly.  This is the only tactic they use.

Most tactics would look the same given the length of the cutscenes. All those scenes really show is clips of stuff getting destroyed.

[The Angry One]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Well, I agree with the "I wanted cooler, more thought-out cutscenes" thing (who wouldn't?) but I don't think the cutscenes failed to convince me of the overwhelming power of the Reaper threat. I suppose that is where I disagree.

Let me put it this way, the cutscenes show Reaper power and their threat.
The problem is it doesn't show the galaxy doing their best to resist this threat. It comes across as if they've already given up, which is what diminishes the entire premise.
Again if you show our side doing everything they can, using every tactic, every weapon, every conventional and unconventional tactic available to them and still losing - that is powerful.

[CronoDragoon]

The Angry One wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Well, I agree with the "I wanted cooler, more thought-out cutscenes" thing (who wouldn't?) but I don't think the cutscenes failed to convince me of the overwhelming power of the Reaper threat. I suppose that is where I disagree.

Let me put it this way, the cutscenes show Reaper power and their threat.
The problem is it doesn't show the galaxy doing their best to resist this threat. It comes across as if they've already given up, which is what diminishes the entire premise.
Again if you show our side doing everything they can, using every tactic, every weapon, every conventional and unconventional tactic available to them and still losing - that is powerful.

It would also be a lot more expensive. The current cutscenes would only be able to show a portion of that because overall they are pretty short. Long enough to show a few ships flying and getting destroyed by Reapers.

Of course, the final battle cutscene I agree, because all the time they devoted to showing some worthless fighter pilot chasing a zit could have been used for other stuff.

[CitizenThom]

Tealjaker94 wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

I kinda agree on that about earth but the Turians were destroying a lot of the reapers. But some stuff was ridiculous like how FTL will make it impossible to ram a reaper

Their explanation was BS, but it makes sense that you can't hit anything at FTL speeds. Technically, if you're traveling at FTL or even just the speed of light, your mass is 0 or less. J=Ft. F=ma. m=0. F=0a=0. J=0t=0. You would cause no impulse just like light causes none to us.

However, the mass effect fields are moving at the speed of light, the ship's just kind of being towed by the vaccum based on my recollection of the lore... so basically the ship would be pulled along at faster than light speed, maintaining it's actual mass. None the less, let's say that a ship at light speed rammed a reaper at a mass of zero, but decellerated(sp?) in such a way as to acquire mass the moment the ship occupied the same position in space as that of the reaper? Wouldn't that be just as effective at punching a big hole in a Reaper?

[3DandBeyond]

JBPBRC wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...
Again this is only because as TAO said, the galaxy is shown to have the combat capabilties of an ostrich. The final battle in particular is horrendous, with Hackett just sending everyone in a giant cavalry line a-chargin' at the Reapers.

Those random Star Destroyers in Empire Strikes Back that were chasing after the Falcon showed more sense, and they were tricked into almost ramming each other at the speed of snail.

That's not why. If the galaxy had employed clever tactics and used Thanix cannons, it would not have made any difference except an aesthetic one during minor 10-20 second battle cutscenes meant to set the mood for the war.

I agree. But as TAO said, show that. Show more of that. Acknowledge that the galaxy has made progress and then crush it under a Reaper's heel (tentacle). Less offscreen Codex gibberish that looks like a different parallel universe than the game we're playing.

That's exactly it.  Words didn't convey that it was impossible.  Words were meant to be ignored.  We needed to see that everything we tried was futile so that the only conclusion was to use the crucible.  But even there I have to say that refusing the kid didn't have to be seen as a rejection of the crucible.  Why not have the kid say, it you don't make a choice, the work your galaxy did on the crucible will have been for nothing and you will be left to try and fight without it.  Or something like this.  Why the great but all too brief attempt to show discontent with, "so be it", which really belatedly shows he wanted Shepard to make a choice.  If he didn't like destroy or control, then why not have that with some equal, but more subtle resistance?

[JBPBRC]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Well, I agree with the "I wanted cooler, more thought-out cutscenes" thing (who wouldn't?) but I don't think the cutscenes failed to convince me of the overwhelming power of the Reaper threat. I suppose that is where I disagree.

Let me put it this way, the cutscenes show Reaper power and their threat.
The problem is it doesn't show the galaxy doing their best to resist this threat. It comes across as if they've already given up, which is what diminishes the entire premise.
Again if you show our side doing everything they can, using every tactic, every weapon, every conventional and unconventional tactic available to them and still losing - that is powerful.

It would also be a lot more expensive. The current cutscenes would only be able to show a portion of that because overall they are pretty short. Long enough to show a few ships flying and getting destroyed by Reapers.

Of course, the final battle cutscene I agree, because all the time they devoted to showing some worthless fighter pilot chasing a zit could have been used for other stuff.

This is unfortunately the blame for alot of things. Giving Diana Allers a model but not even bothering with one for Tali's face being an infamous one.

[CronoDragoon]

JBPBRC wrote...

This is unfortunately the blame for alot of things. Giving Diana Allers a model but not even bothering with one for Tali's face being an infamous one.

Don't get me started on that B.S.

[AresKeith]

CronoDragoon wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

it was still a retcon when they talk to Shepard about it in ME2 and completely acts like it never happened like that, after they already knew it was a Reaper

That's not a retcon. It was scumbag politics.

that is a retcon, whether they wanna believe it or not they knew the Reapers were real at the end of ME1, then in ME2 they randomly claim it wasn't, and even if they did that for the general public they would have still prepared.

[saracen16]

Quething wrote...

This sort of goes hand-in-hand with my continuing despair at the complete lack of comprehension from some parties that "unconventional" is not a synonym for "Crucible." Throwing a thresher maw at a Reaper is unconventional. Having a completely mobile population center that isn't forced to defend a specific planet and can freely focus all its attention on single isolated targets and then retreat is unconventional. Dropping an asteroid on a mass relay is unconventional. Sending civilians with bombs into enemy resource production centers is unconventional.

All of those tactics are completely available to the allied organic & geth forces at their current tech level. All are proven successful against Reapers.

The Crucible is the only method that you speak of that results in the least loss of life and property compared to the other methods. It is the only method that does the greater good for the greater number of people. The others sacrifice populations, planets, and entire systems and barely leave a home for the others to return to.

[JBPBRC]

AresKeith wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

it was still a retcon when they talk to Shepard about it in ME2 and completely acts like it never happened like that, after they already knew it was a Reaper

That's not a retcon. It was scumbag politics.

that is a retcon, whether they wanna believe it or not they knew the Reapers were real at the end of ME1, then in ME2 they randomly claim it wasn't, and even if they did that for the general public they would have still prepared.

Would've been easy enough to prepare too. Just say you're building up forces in retaliation for the "Geth" attack on the Citadel. Hell, this would even reign in the clanless thiev--Quarians, who would be super gung-ho for anything to do with killing Geth. Minus those in the Terminus Systems, this would've united the galaxy fairly well to a known threat.

[CronoDragoon]

AresKeith wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

it was still a retcon when they talk to Shepard about it in ME2 and completely acts like it never happened like that, after they already knew it was a Reaper

That's not a retcon. It was scumbag politics.

that is a retcon, whether they wanna believe it or not they knew the Reapers were real at the end of ME1, then in ME2 they randomly claim it wasn't, and even if they did that for the general public they would have still prepared.

They believed it at the time, just like people in graveyards at midnight tend to start believing in ghosts. Afterwards, it seems silly.

In ME2 they claim that Sovereign was simply a really advanced geth ship or something. In any case, they blame the geth.

[jumpingkaede]

CronoDragoon wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

it was still a retcon when they talk to Shepard about it in ME2 and completely acts like it never happened like that, after they already knew it was a Reaper

That's not a retcon. It was scumbag politics.

that is a retcon, whether they wanna believe it or not they knew the Reapers were real at the end of ME1, then in ME2 they randomly claim it wasn't, and even if they did that for the general public they would have still prepared.

They believed it at the time, just like people in graveyards at midnight tend to start believing in ghosts. Afterwards, it seems silly.

In ME2 they claim that Sovereign was simply a really advanced geth ship or something. In any case, they blame the geth.

You'd think with advanced omnitool technology available Shepard would have thought to record some of his conversations with Sovereign or whatever.

Because omnitool audio recordings can't be faked.  And the Council considers that indisputable evidence.