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#376
Cultist

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No it ain't.
Either you don't understand the dillema, or your moral compass is so broken that it cannot be fixed.
And from what I recall from my previous interaction with you, it is.

Something
is either reasonable or it's not. Justifiable? Thats a different issue
and in the end pointless, since everything - EVERYTHING - can be
justified by applying a sufficiently fraked up mindset/logic.

It serves my purposes, thus, commiting it is reasonable. Pretty simple.
I absolutely agree that everything could be justified by different kind of logic and that is the reason RPGs have different kind of playstyle. Good, evil, neutral. We have to take in account those people for whom killing Leliana is reasonable, and those, tho think it is unacceptable, with the result is - option to kill her and spare her in times of crisis. The point of this topic is just adding one more option, not removing others.

Modifié par Cultist, 01 septembre 2012 - 07:59 .


#377
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Spicen wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
C'mon..We both know you have not a shread of actual evidence to support your claims. Just conjectures.

And if all of this is just an act or joke on your part...well, it ain't funny.


Why coz its your favourite character Leliana and not anders?


Actually she isn't. You can try to guess who is my favorite DA:O character tough.


And what are you talking about evidence, think for a while seriouly please:
1)She never took the initiation
2)When the warden slew the archdemon she started telling everyone about the ashes, and soon becomes very important in the chantry.
3) Its your love for the character that is making you immune to facts and logic.


1) so what? She sleft with the warden before she took it. She way a lay sister
2) So? She is religious and ashes are important to her...and to most of TheDas. You might as well ask a sceintists to not mention discovering Higgs soson.
3) go ahead an prove it.

You have yet to prive any concrete fact.


1) She stayed for years at the chantry and still forgot to take a single vow, oh my how stupid of her.
2)Or she wants to become famous.
3)I already proved it.

ALERT: The lawyer in defense of Ms. Leliana has a problem with understanding simple English. Should i bring a translator Mr. as slippy as a  "Lotion" Soronnar


"Or's" and "if's" aren't facts, they are possibilities from a wide range of outcomes.

1) People are religious but do not want to be restrained by the red-lines of religion. She wants to worship the maker her own way? So be it.

2) A Bard on the run and she wants to publicize herself? Everything about her character points to a big fat no. First, her wicked side, her bard side. Being a bard means manipulating people, it means hiding in the shadows, playing false. Wanting to become famous is the last thing a bard should want. Second, her good side. A generous soul, who sticks to the Maker, and yet she wants fame? That's the opposite of pious.

3) You haven't proven anything. You're dislike for the character will have similar effects to his fondness of the character. You're restricted to one side of the coin.

Me? I prefer Shale and Sten.


Well if my accusations are wrong why didnt a moderator lock this thread despite the number of times Leliana fans reported this thread. Leliana will be in DA 3, and will we have an option to kill her, probably in a battle where we have to choose which side the inquisitor takes.
1) The mages
2)The Templars
3)The Chantry(aka Leliana)

Just dont get angry at biooware for giving us the option to have Leliana as a boss. The time they tried that the BSN cracked down.*coughs*TIM*coughs


What?! :lol: sorry I don't see how that corresponds with my reply.

#378
Lotion Soronarr

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Cultist wrote...
It serves my purposes, thus, commiting it is reasonable. Pretty simple.


What purpose? Not liking her?
Nope. It isn't reasonable.
It don't work that way.

I absolutely agree that everything could be justified by different kind of logic and that is the reason RPGs have different kind of playstyle. Good, evil, neutral. We have to take in account those people for whom killing Leliana is reasonable, and those, tho think it is unacceptable, with the result is - option to kill her and spare her in times of crisis. The point of this topic is just adding one more option, not removing others.


And I'm not arguing against the option to kill her, I'm arguing against the redicolous reasoning some take behind taking that option.

#379
Toki

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Yeah, I have to agree with some people here. For instance, I dislike Liara. There's no reasoning in the game for me to want to kill her, and no good situation where I would and I'm fine with that. It depends on the character I suppose, but you're taking it overboard, honestly.

I think that if you killed her in Origins she should have died, but I never did so I'm sure that they could think of a way (for instance, if you killed her at the Urn, maybe she used the ashes or something?). Just a thought, but I'm sure they have good reasoning for keeping her alive. A second chance? I guess it really depends on the story and situation, but I don't really care either way. If they make her a really important character, they might not even let you kill her off.

#380
Spicen

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Vulsamee wrote...

Yeah, I have to agree with some people here. For instance, I dislike Liara. There's no reasoning in the game for me to want to kill her, and no good situation where I would and I'm fine with that. It depends on the character I suppose, but you're taking it overboard, honestly.

I think that if you killed her in Origins she should have died, but I never did so I'm sure that they could think of a way (for instance, if you killed her at the Urn, maybe she used the ashes or something?). Just a thought, but I'm sure they have good reasoning for keeping her alive. A second chance? I guess it really depends on the story and situation, but I don't really care either way. If they make her a really important character, they might not even let you kill her off.


A very interesting comment.About the storyline, i said there will probably be 3 chioces:

1)Support Chantry (leliana lives)
2)Support Mages (leliana can die/live, for her to live the PC needs to have high persuasion)
3) Support Templars (leliana lives/dies, for her to live small persuasion perk will be enough).

I think the scenario will be like this. Most probably BW kept Lil alive to give the chantry a good face. And yes considering the leak the game will probably give the chance to kill her if we support mages.

And oh yeah, dont defend leliana, if she had managed to kill the warden more than millions would have died in fereldan. You have to atleast judge her decision. She is no worse than anders, oh and by the way she does not have a spirit of vengeance in her head.

It is for you to judge.  I dont know what your stance with Anders is, but if you killed him, Leliana deserves no more.

#381
Emzamination

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RinjiRenee wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Listen my man, if bioware continues to ignore player decisions thats the knid of response they will get. Leliana was supposed to be dead, Bioware did not allow me to import this choice. Tell me how you will feel if somebody you hate and killed gets retconned. Maybe Loghain and Fenris. BW ignoring player choices is a big signal of what we are going to see in the future. You will say that the choice i made is insignificant, but slowly more control will be taken from us slowly. As u said, baby steps.

Oh and the thousands of comments from people who enjoyed gutting Anders was very healthy and tasty too.


Ok so this is where I point out the difference between you and me.

I don't actively hate fictional characters, even if their personality is grating, or if they're evil, or murderers, or whatever.  My character is not me.  Sure, I may have my own personal feelings about the story in general, but they are separate from my character's feelings.  That is roleplaying.

Anyway.  I'm just not seeing this whole BIG SCARY BW TAKING AWAY OUR CHOICES thing that you're getting at.  Dragon Age has never been that reactive to my "choices."  Sure, I can flip a few plot flags here and there, but I'm always headed towards the vaguely same destination.  That's not being critical, as I still enjoy the heck out of the story. If they feel like a character I "killed" is important to progress the story along, then that's their decision to make.  Whether or not they explain how the character revived is not up to me, either.  I can surely judge, but you're blowing the issue way out of proportion, and frankly, I think you could benefit from backing away and calming down a little.  If the issue matters that much to you, I really don't think the Dragon Age series is for you.

inb4 BIOWARE APOLOGIST


No, that's one way to roleplay.Some people self-insert with their character and some draw what we call the 'line' between the two.You shouldn't state such things as an absolute without checking your facts, no matter how strongly you feel about it.

Also love the 'Bioware apologist' disclaimer on a bioware forum.I'd facepalm but quite frankly, not worth it.

#382
Cultist

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...
What purpose? Not liking her?
Nope. It isn't reasonable.
It don't work that way.

For me it is reasonable. Look. If I will desecrate the Ashes, I will get power of the dragon blood, knowledge of Reaver specialization and will harm organisation that I don't like. At the same time, if at the same time some annoying party member, and member of that very organisation, don't like it and ready to attack me for desecration, my decision is obvious - kill Leliana, desecrate Ashes, get all power and knowledge.

And I'm not arguing against the option to kill her, I'm arguing against the redicolous reasoning some take behind taking that option.

It is ridiculous because you think that only your reasoning is correct. Which is normal, but not in computer RPG. We have to take in account different kind of resoning, even the most repulsive and horrible.
For me, for example, the logical course of action is to deal peacefully with Tevinter slaver and sell him Fenris, because, once again, it will serve my purposes and this decision will not gave me any unease feelings. Yet killing Anders after he blows up cleric is unacceptable for me. But I will hate the idea of making Anders immortal\\resurrected in similar way as Leliana.

#383
Lotion Soronarr

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Spicen wrote...

And oh yeah, dont defend leliana, if she had managed to kill the warden more than millions would have died in fereldan. You have to atleast judge her decision. She is no worse than anders, oh and by the way she does not have a spirit of vengeance in her head.


Erm..waht fraked up logic is that?
Leliana doesn't know (no one does) that the Warden will be central to stopping the Blight. When she attacks the Warden it is because he commits a horrible offense and she wants to stop him. There is no otehr motivation ot malice behind that.
What would have happened without the Warden is up for debate - maby Alistair and Riordan would have been enough. Who knows?

And if we follow that logic, how does your Warden not know that Leliana might be central to stopping the Templar/Mage war? Hell, she MIGHT be for all we know.


I mean really.
I find it redicolous how full of themselves some players are. Apaprently their character can insult everyone and everything, spit on the most important things in other peoples lives and then act shocked - SHOCKED - that said people turn on them.
Ironicly, they are at the same time ready to kill poeple at the drop of the hat, for petty reasons.


"I killed your brother, burned down your house and defiled your family graves. Also I'll insult you on every occasion. And your god sux.....How do you dare turn against me when we have more pressing matters to attend to (my vengace)?!?!?!   DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!"

"You know that joke about the priest and the chicken?"
"you told it already. It is old. you are boring me. DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!"

#384
Lotion Soronarr

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Cultist wrote...
For me it is reasonable.


But you are not reasonalbe in general, so your "reasonable" does not conform to the general usage of the world.

Killing off your own party memebers is not reasonable.


It is ridiculous because you think that only your reasoning is correct.


It is redicolous because it's stupid and petty.

#385
Orian Tabris

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You hateful, tasteless, dumb, despicable people! :pinched:

If you wanna kill Leliana, fine, but I hope it's an optional, lame, uninventive, way to die, that doesn't entirely make sense and was clearly just thrown in to please you, but in a displeasing way!

That sexy b-atch is awesome, inspite of her crazy religious beliefs. 'Sides, it's not like she's Chrisitian! And that voice is itself, sexy, even without that face and bod to go.

For shame, people! For shame!!!

Why a thread for this? *Goes off and has a cry.*
:crying:

#386
Cultist

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It is redicolous because it's stupid and petty.

So it is ridiculous because you don't like it?

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
But you are not reasonalbe in general, so your "reasonable" does not conform to the general usage of the world.
Killing off your own party memebers is not reasonable.

Ah, so we get to subjectivism as you refuse to admit that "logics", different than your own, may be correct and viable.

And can you please explain  why it is not reasonable to kill your party members? I can state my reasons to kill them. Can you tell me why can't I do it?

#387
Lotion Soronarr

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Other than the crazy self-serving villan logic that no normal human being would ascribe too?

As I said - crazy people can justify anything. I can easily justify killing you. That doesn't make it reasonable.

Leliana is a willing follower who wants to help you. She is skilled and hasn't done anything that warrants death.
Unless disagreeing with you warrants death - which is "reasonable" only to crazy people.

You see, a smart person could have easily predict that Leliana will not support you on the whole "destroy ashes" thing. So the best course of action is to not taker her with you and lie to her afterwards.
That way you keep your party at full strength while at the same time fulfilling your objectives...A course of action which is infinitely more reasonable and logical.

#388
Icy Magebane

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The issue isn't whether or not killing Leliana is "reasonable." The issue is that DA2 overrides an important aspect of roleplaying: decision making. By allowing players to roleplay and then later altering their stories, they did those players a disservice. Now, whether you agree with Leliana's execution isn't the issue... I've only done this in a few games myself, but the fact is that for no reason that we're privy to as players, a person we killed rose from the dead as if it never happened. There isn't even an explanation for exactly what transpired, it's just a simple case of the game designers not taking the prequel into account so that they could bring back this character. The rationale is inconsequential and shouldn't need to be explained. I only ask that my decision not be undone out of what I believe to be laziness on the part of the writers (keeping her alive prevents the need to create a new character that's only present in certain games, etc...).

If you don't understand that, it speaks to personal bias on your part. Would you be okay with a canon ruler of Orzamaar that contradicted the choice you made? And then having the developers go so far as to not bother explaining why they changed your story? I doubt it.

Now personally, I'd favor a system where there was either no option to kill Leliana in the first place, or a removal of the import feature... but we're past that point. Right now, it's best to take things with a grain of salt. On thing DA2 did right is prevent Hawke from doing anything too crazy, so that this situation is unlikely in the future.

Also, I shouldn't HAVE to do this, but if you aren't a rogue and have already killed or simply dislike Zevran, then you need somebody to open treasure chests, simple as that.  You find out that you can become more powerful by tainting the Ashes, and the rogue on hand happens to object... I mean really, it's not that diffiult to come up with a situation where you, Leliana, and an urn of tainted holy ashes wind up in the same room.  But as I said, I don't expect that much influence on the story in the future... even though a dead character not being alive doesn't seem like asking very much.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 03 septembre 2012 - 10:10 .


#389
Cultist

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Other than the crazy self-serving villan logic that no normal human being would ascribe too?
As I said - crazy people can justify anything. I can easily justify killing you. That doesn't make it reasonable.

Leliana is a willing follower who wants to help you. She is skilled and hasn't done anything that warrants death.
Unless disagreeing with you warrants death - which is "reasonable" only to crazy people.

You see, a smart person could have easily predict that Leliana will not support you on the whole "destroy ashes" thing. So the best course of action is to not taker her with you and lie to her afterwards.
That way you keep your party at full strength while at the same time fulfilling your objectives...A course of action which is infinitely more reasonable and logical.

A Blood Mage, who struck a deal with demon, bargaining child's soul for power, should care for chantry whiner? Or warior, aspiring to become a Reaver? It's not ME2, party does not require to be at full strength. And logical solution is to keep only necessary companions you can like or at least tolarate. Others are expendable.
So, a smart person could have easily predict that Leliana will not support you on the whole "destroy ashes" thing, and thus, prepare well for such a great chance to murder her.

#390
Rawgrim

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My character was simply against the Chantry. Defiling the ashes was in-character. Leliana attacked me, and she lost. I don`t see the evil in killing someone that attacks me.

#391
Lord Gremlin

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Actually, I find idea of killing her again very, very appeasing.
A proper fatality cutscene would be good, bring on murder knife!
"Shh, hush... There, good girl"
I know - creepy, yeah. Still, would be a major selling point.

After all, choice is the only thing good about Bioware game. Look at Dragon's Dogma - better than Dragon Age in every way except - yeah, story. Your character is an idiot who can't affect anything and is constantly played for a fool or ignored. I do hope Bioware comes to senses...
Because their cutscenes suck too. You know what game has good cutscens? Final Fantasy. Dragon Age cutscenes are rubbish, it's the story content in them and choice that makes em awesome.

#392
Lotion Soronarr

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Icy Magebane wrote...
The issue isn't whether or not killing Leliana is "reasonable." The issue is that DA2 overrides an important aspect of roleplaying: decision making.


Actually it is the issue. That IS what we have been descusing.

The "player decision invalidated" aspect was dealt  with a few pages ago.
And we all agreed on that such things are best avoided by the developers. But then again, if developers think that makes for a better story...it IS their story.


If you don't understand that, it speaks to personal bias on your part. Would you be okay with a canon ruler of Orzamaar that contradicted the choice you made? And then having the developers go so far as to not bother explaining why they changed your story? I doubt it.


I wasn't much bothered because I never expected continuity to be mantained.
Save-game imports and takign everything into acount - and then writing a story for it - is a HUUUGE problem.
In other words, I expected something like that to happen.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 03 septembre 2012 - 11:29 .


#393
Lotion Soronarr

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Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Other than the crazy self-serving villan logic that no normal human being would ascribe too?
As I said - crazy people can justify anything. I can easily justify killing you. That doesn't make it reasonable.

Leliana is a willing follower who wants to help you. She is skilled and hasn't done anything that warrants death.
Unless disagreeing with you warrants death - which is "reasonable" only to crazy people.

You see, a smart person could have easily predict that Leliana will not support you on the whole "destroy ashes" thing. So the best course of action is to not taker her with you and lie to her afterwards.
That way you keep your party at full strength while at the same time fulfilling your objectives...A course of action which is infinitely more reasonable and logical.


A Blood Mage, who struck a deal with demon, bargaining child's soul for power, should care for chantry whiner? Or warior, aspiring to become a Reaver? It's not ME2, party does not require to be at full strength. And logical solution is to keep only necessary companions you can like or at least tolarate. Others are expendable.
So, a smart person could have easily predict that Leliana will not support you on the whole "destroy ashes" thing, and thus, prepare well for such a great chance to murder her.


Thank you for proving me right.
You basicly kill people because you don't tolerate them... in a "mwahahahaha" moustache-twirling fashion

#394
Lotion Soronarr

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Rawgrim wrote...

My character was simply against the Chantry. Defiling the ashes was in-character. Leliana attacked me, and she lost. I don`t see the evil in killing someone that attacks me.


I hate your religion, therefore I will do my utmost to insult it and you and destroy everything conncected to it.
If you attack me for that you're a douche!


Yeah..no evil there:whistle:

I mena, I ONLY killed you because you attacked me. Who cares why you did it, right? I mean - you could have just walked away while I was stabbing your mother. I am innocent here!

#395
cogsandcurls

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Wow, sure is bloodthirsty in here. I sort of hope Leliana winds up being the Plot-Armoured 2nd-coming of Andraste just to see how happy it would make you, Cultist :)

#396
whykikyouwhy

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***Some inevitable spoilers in my response, so please handle accordingly***

With regard to this:

Icy Magebane wrote...

The issue isn't whether or not killing Leliana is "reasonable." The issue is that DA2 overrides an important aspect of roleplaying: decision making. By allowing players to roleplay and then later altering their stories, they did those players a disservice. Now, whether you agree with Leliana's execution isn't the issue... I've only done this in a few games myself, but the fact is that for no reason that we're privy to as players, a person we killed rose from the dead as if it never happened. There isn't even an explanation for exactly what transpired, it's just a simple case of the game designers not taking the prequel into account so that they could bring back this character. The rationale is inconsequential and shouldn't need to be explained. I only ask that my decision not be undone out of what I believe to be laziness on the part of the writers (keeping her alive prevents the need to create a new character that's only present in certain games, etc...).


The thing is, we really don't know what the devs had in mind for Leliana from the get-go. Some folks think she was "kept alive" because of the fans, or because the devs favored the character. Some folks think that she appears again due to poor consistency, or lack of, between the first and second games. But do any of us know for certain? A lot of assumptions are being made. 

It's possible that Leliana's story and how it will play out for several chapters (games, books, etc) of Dragon Age was mapped out to a broad degree. The same might be said for Alistair. We only get bits and pieces however, as they are relevant to the current and present format. It's possible that Leliana was always meant to live (or be in some semblence of a natural life) up until a certain yet-to-be-seen point in the overall narrative. The choice/option to kill her for defiling the ashes is presented to the player because it has to do with how a player may want to role-play their Warden.  It seems to be, at least, that it's less about what happens to the bard, as it is about what how the Warden makes his/her way through the journey to the battle with the Archdemon.

At this juncture, we don't know if the young Chantry sister in Lothering was mortal, if she wasn't an avatar of some sort, a reincarnation of a myriad of entities, someone chosen for greater things, or just someone who, upon her "death" was in a place of mystical power. If she was intended to be alive somehow all along, sure, it would have been nice to have an explanation...however, it's possible that an explanation is still forthcoming. It may not be the proper time in the narrative for that revelation.

I understand how some players may perceive this as their choices being negated, but death has already been shown to be less than concrete and final in the DA-verse, often for reasons tied to magic. So too, DA:O is the Warden's story - a Leliana killed by the Warden is essentially dead, to the Warden, and in his/her understanding. DA2 is Hawke's story, and a Leliana that appears before Hawke (and who was said to have died) is a person of legend, possibly saved by the Maker or some other happenstance. The character serves different functions in each game, and is in unique to the experience of the PC, though not necessarily the player. 

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 03 septembre 2012 - 12:25 .


#397
Lotion Soronarr

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Technicly, we can't even be sure if she was really dead.
I mean you can say "I decapitated her", but that's just a combat animation that for most people never played. So mabybe she was left on the floor knocked out, but not dead.
You mgiht say "my Warden would make sure she died", but then again you might also say "my Warnden would leve Ferelden".
We just have to accept that our control over the protagonist is limited.


Choice consistency over several games is night impossible anyway.

#398
Rawgrim

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

My character was simply against the Chantry. Defiling the ashes was in-character. Leliana attacked me, and she lost. I don`t see the evil in killing someone that attacks me.


I hate your religion, therefore I will do my utmost to insult it and you and destroy everything conncected to it.
If you attack me for that you're a douche!


Yeah..no evil there:whistle:

I mena, I ONLY killed you because you attacked me. Who cares why you did it, right? I mean - you could have just walked away while I was stabbing your mother. I am innocent here!


Now you are just twisting things around. There are several reasons why one might dislike the chantry. Being a mage, for example.

#399
Cultist

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Thank you for proving me right.
You basicly kill people because you don't tolerate them... in a "mwahahahaha" moustache-twirling fashion

Murder for murder sake is different from murder for power and might.

cogsandcurls wrote...
Wow, sure is bloodthirsty in here. I
sort of hope Leliana winds up being the Plot-Armoured 2nd-coming of
Andraste just to see how happy it would make you, Cultist :)

I would be very happy. That'll give us almost endless possabilities for story and overall improvement. Especially for us, anti-chantry types. So much more harm could be done to Chantry with prophet walking the among common people. Imagine second coming of Jesus and his assasination! Such blow would be devastating and magnificent.
And the best part - propthets rarely die in their beds...in fact they are lucky to die quickly)

#400
Lotion Soronarr

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Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Thank you for proving me right.
You basicly kill people because you don't tolerate them... in a "mwahahahaha" moustache-twirling fashion

Murder for murder sake is different from murder for power and might.


Except murdering Leliana is not necessary to obtain power. And since it's not necessary it's puerly hate. Which you've proven time and time again.
I find it funny how anti-religious types are usually more hatefull and blood-thirsty then the supposed "religious fanatics"


cogsandcurls wrote...
Wow, sure is bloodthirsty in here. I
sort of hope Leliana winds up being the Plot-Armoured 2nd-coming of
Andraste just to see how happy it would make you, Cultist :)

I would be very happy. That'll give us almost endless possabilities for story and overall improvement. Especially for us, anti-chantry types. So much more harm could be done to Chantry with prophet walking the among common people. Imagine second coming of Jesus and his assasination! Such blow would be devastating and magnificent.
And the best part - propthets rarely die in their beds...in fact they are lucky to die quickly)


not reading well, are we?
All your attempts would auto-fail.