766 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rawgrim wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

My character was simply against the Chantry. Defiling the ashes was in-character. Leliana attacked me, and she lost. I don`t see the evil in killing someone that attacks me.

I hate your religion, therefore I will do my utmost to insult it and you and destroy everything conncected to it.
If you attack me for that you're a douche!


Yeah..no evil there:whistle:

I mena, I ONLY killed you because you attacked me. Who cares why you did it, right? I mean - you could have just walked away while I was stabbing your mother. I am innocent here!

Now you are just twisting things around. There are several reasons why one might dislike the chantry. Being a mage, for example.

That doesn't excuse it.

If I hypotheticly dislike Islam, that doesn't excuse me if I walk into a mosque and start pissing over their religious items in full view of everyone present.
And then when they attack I can't claim "they started it".
Deliberately provking and insulting, deliberatly attacking other peopels beliefs and feelings - that is the way of a douche.

[Spicen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

My character was simply against the Chantry. Defiling the ashes was in-character. Leliana attacked me, and she lost. I don`t see the evil in killing someone that attacks me.

I hate your religion, therefore I will do my utmost to insult it and you and destroy everything conncected to it.
If you attack me for that you're a douche!


Yeah..no evil there:whistle:

I mena, I ONLY killed you because you attacked me. Who cares why you did it, right? I mean - you could have just walked away while I was stabbing your mother. I am innocent here!

Now you are just twisting things around. There are several reasons why one might dislike the chantry. Being a mage, for example.

That doesn't excuse it.

If I hypotheticly dislike Islam, that doesn't excuse me if I walk into a mosque and start pissing over their religious items in full view of everyone present.
And then when they attack I can't claim "they started it".
Deliberately provking and insulting, deliberatly attacking other peopels beliefs and feelings - that is the way of a douche.

Not to barge in here but if u do anything like that in a mosque you are not going to get out alive, no joke.

dont bring real world religion here if u want to discuss. Real world discussion will lead to racist comments and this thread will be locked, so dont continue.

Oh and Mr. Soronar please tell me what you did to Anders. And dont call others foolish or petty if their opinions are not your, it may be the other way around. Look at the latest comments, options in RPG are always respected.

I will repeat, the thread was made so that we can show we would like another option. I just am justifying it, i would not have reasoned with you L-fanboys and just gave replies like Cultist's.

Modifié par Spicen, 03 septembre 2012 - 04:11 .

[Spicen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Spicen wrote...

And oh yeah, dont defend leliana, if she had managed to kill the warden more than millions would have died in fereldan. You have to atleast judge her decision. She is no worse than anders, oh and by the way she does not have a spirit of vengeance in her head.

Erm..waht fraked up logic is that?
Leliana doesn't know (no one does) that the Warden will be central to stopping the Blight. When she attacks the Warden it is because he commits a horrible offense and she wants to stop him. There is no otehr motivation ot malice behind that.
What would have happened without the Warden is up for debate - maby Alistair and Riordan would have been enough. Who knows?

And if we follow that logic, how does your Warden not know that Leliana might be central to stopping the Templar/Mage war? Hell, she MIGHT be for all we know.


I mean really.
I find it redicolous how full of themselves some players are. Apaprently their character can insult everyone and everything, spit on the most important things in other peoples lives and then act shocked - SHOCKED - that said people turn on them.
Ironicly, they are at the same time ready to kill poeple at the drop of the hat, for petty reasons.


"I killed your brother, burned down your house and defiled your family graves. Also I'll insult you on every occasion. And your god sux.....How do you dare turn against me when we have more pressing matters to attend to (my vengace)?!?!?!   DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!"

"You know that joke about the priest and the chicken?"
"you told it already. It is old. you are boring me. DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!"

Alistair cud have been with the warden and we all know what happens to Riordan. And you are saying Leliana doesnt know that the warden is central to the blight.......how queer, didnt she say sth like "the maker sent me to help you in ur quest to defeat the blight."  And what crime does the warden commit? He destroys ashes of a long dead woman in order to get an egde in combat by reaver power. Very acceptable, sometimes heroes are led to desperation.

And yes we can insult anyone we want, thats what powerful men do, men always take advantage of power and DAO allowed us to use that unlike some other game i know (yeah u got it DA 2).

Oh and last time i checked a blight is way more destructive than a mage-templar massacre(mages always lose.....geee). If the darkspawn destroyed Fereldan they wud have abducted hundreds of women turned them to broodmothers, that is a worse fate than being a blood mage thrall. 
Then it wud have been million darkspwn vs Orlais.......that reminds me do u know how Germany defeated France in WW2, it will be 1000 times worse for Orlais.
We know the warden is important to the blight. FACT!!! Your assumption that leliana is important to the DA 3 plot is not fact.

Modifié par Spicen, 03 septembre 2012 - 04:01 .

[Spicen]

Orian Tabris wrote...

You hateful, tasteless, dumb, despicable people!

If you wanna kill Leliana, fine, but I hope it's an optional, lame, uninventive, way to die, that doesn't entirely make sense and was clearly just thrown in to please you, but in a displeasing way!

That sexy b-atch is awesome, inspite of her crazy religious beliefs. 'Sides, it's not like she's Chrisitian! And that voice is itself, sexy, even without that face and bod to go.

For shame, people! For shame!!!

Why a thread for this? *Goes off and has a cry.*

Why thank you, my good sir. I will be very happy with a optional, lame, uninventive, way to die, that doesn't entirely make sense and was clearly just thrown in to please you, but in a displeasing way! to kill her.

My pleasure. Sir.

[Spicen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Other than the crazy self-serving villan logic that no normal human being would ascribe too?

As I said - crazy people can justify anything. I can easily justify killing you. That doesn't make it reasonable.

Leliana is a willing follower who wants to help you. She is skilled and hasn't done anything that warrants death.
Unless disagreeing with you warrants death - which is "reasonable" only to crazy people.

You see, a smart person could have easily predict that Leliana will not support you on the whole "destroy ashes" thing. So the best course of action is to not taker her with you and lie to her afterwards.
That way you keep your party at full strength while at the same time fulfilling your objectives...A course of action which is infinitely more reasonable and logical.

No, Leliana does not react too much until you destroy the ashes, play again please or read the DA wiki.

[Cultist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Except murdering Leliana is not necessary to obtain power. And since it's not necessary it's puerly hate. Which you've proven time and time again.
I find it funny how anti-religious types are usually more hatefull and blood-thirsty then the supposed "religious fanatics"

And why do you think I'm not a religious type? Because I hate Chantry? That's just one organization, among other, simply very powerful one. And murdering Leliana is logical as you get power of the dragon's blood AND kill another chantry worshipper.

not reading well, are we?
All your attempts would auto-fail.

Plot-armored for DA3? No problem at all, I can live with that. That doesn't mean she will be immune after DA3 or spared from suffering during the game. I bet she still got something to lose, something to cherish we can burn and desecrate. After all, even Jesus cried "Father, why have you forsaken me?".

[Spicen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...
The issue isn't whether or not killing Leliana is "reasonable." The issue is that DA2 overrides an important aspect of roleplaying: decision making.

Actually it is the issue. That IS what we have been descusing.

The "player decision invalidated" aspect was dealt  with a few pages ago.
And we all agreed on that such things are best avoided by the developers. But then again, if developers think that makes for a better story...it IS their story.

If you don't understand that, it speaks to personal bias on your part. Would you be okay with a canon ruler of Orzamaar that contradicted the choice you made? And then having the developers go so far as to not bother explaining why they changed your story? I doubt it.

I wasn't much bothered because I never expected continuity to be mantained.
Save-game imports and takign everything into acount - and then writing a story for it - is a HUUUGE problem.
In other words, I expected something like that to happen.

Yes it is their story isn't it, let them canonize that loghain is alive, fenris is alive, or how about keep Anders alive even if you have killed him.

Oh i got a better one................DA 2 was just a lie by varric, the true game is going to be played in DA 3, where none of the choices you make in DA 2 is going to have importance. Its their story right.

[Spicen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Thank you for proving me right.
You basicly kill people because you don't tolerate them... in a "mwahahahaha" moustache-twirling fashion

Murder for murder sake is different from murder for power and might.

Except murdering Leliana is not necessary to obtain power. And since it's not necessary it's puerly hate. Which you've proven time and time again.
I find it funny how anti-religious types are usually more hatefull and blood-thirsty then the supposed "religious fanatics"

cogsandcurls wrote...
Wow, sure is bloodthirsty in here. I
sort of hope Leliana winds up being the Plot-Armoured 2nd-coming of
Andraste just to see how happy it would make you, Cultist

I would be very happy. That'll give us almost endless possabilities for story and overall improvement. Especially for us, anti-chantry types. So much more harm could be done to Chantry with prophet walking the among common people. Imagine second coming of Jesus and his assasination! Such blow would be devastating and magnificent.
And the best part - propthets rarely die in their beds...in fact they are lucky to die quickly)

not reading well, are we?
All your attempts would auto-fail.

No, no ofcourse not. The reaver power is useless,right?

[syllogi]

You can desecrate the ashes (and get the Reaver specialization) without Leliana in the party, so yeah, it's not necessary.

I'd like fewer NPC cameos from characters who were LIs in previous games, so we can use our imagination as to where they end up after the game ends, so I'm more concerned with the idea that Leliana could be back and not acknowledge a potential romance with the Warden.

Her potential death, like almost all of the killable party members in both games, isn't written in stone. In order to push the story forward, certain things have to be made "canon." It's not the biggest deal when I think about DA3.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Spicen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
That doesn't excuse it.

If I hypotheticly dislike Islam, that doesn't excuse me if I walk into a mosque and start pissing over their religious items in full view of everyone present.
And then when they attack I can't claim "they started it".
Deliberately provking and insulting, deliberatly attacking other peopels beliefs and feelings - that is the way of a douche.

Not to barge in here but if u do anything like that in a mosque you are not going to get out alive, no joke.

dont bring real world religion here if u want to discuss. Real world discussion will lead to racist comments and this thread will be locked, so dont continue.

I will bring in any example I want. Deal with it.

Oh and Mr. Soronar please tell me what you did to Anders. And dont call others foolish or petty if their opinions are not your, it may be the other way around. Look at the latest comments, options in RPG are always respected.

Killed him. He killed a whole bunch of peopel and isn't a least bit sorry for it.
He's clearly unstable with vengance in him, he started a war and he deserves to die. Not to mention the people will be (deservably) screaming for his death.
I'm still not glad I had to do it.

I will repeat, the thread was made so that we can show we would like another option. I just am justifying it, i would not have reasoned with you L-fanboys and just gave replies like Cultist's.

I like all of Biowares characters (more or less). Stop calling me L-fanboy just because you are murder-happy.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Spicen wrote...
Alistair cud have been with the warden and we all know what happens to Riordan.

Whats if's are pointless, since even a small change coudl lead to a MASSIVE change in events.
what makes oyu think that wihout hte Warden all hte other things would paly exactly the smae? How do you know Riordan would die? You don't.
Long-term what-it's are pointless.

And you are saying Leliana doesnt know that the warden is central to the blight.......how queer, didnt she say sth like "the maker sent me to help you in ur quest to defeat the blight."  And what crime does the warden commit? He destroys ashes of a long dead woman in order to get an egde in combat by reaver power. Very acceptable, sometimes heroes are led to desperation.

He destroys a sacred artifact with amazing healing properties. To 90% of TheDas that is a crime worse than murder.
The Warden is douche.

And yes we can insult anyone we want, thats what powerful men do, men always take advantage of power and DAO allowed us to use that unlike some other game i know (yeah u got it DA 2).

..... Not sure if serious....
I hope you arne't....Because if oyu are...Well I'm speechless.
Both for moral and intellectual implications this has on your persona.

We know the warden is important to the blight. FACT!!! Your assumption that leliana is important to the DA 3 plot is not fact.

Which no one know making it pointless.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Spicen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Other than the crazy self-serving villan logic that no normal human being would ascribe too?

As I said - crazy people can justify anything. I can easily justify killing you. That doesn't make it reasonable.

Leliana is a willing follower who wants to help you. She is skilled and hasn't done anything that warrants death.
Unless disagreeing with you warrants death - which is "reasonable" only to crazy people.

You see, a smart person could have easily predict that Leliana will not support you on the whole "destroy ashes" thing. So the best course of action is to not taker her with you and lie to her afterwards.
That way you keep your party at full strength while at the same time fulfilling your objectives...A course of action which is infinitely more reasonable and logical.

No, Leliana does not react too much until you destroy the ashes, play again please or read the DA wiki.

Dude, Leliana is devout and clearly believes in Andraste and the ashes.
If you really though she wouldn't object to you destroying one of the most holy and imporant thing in the universe...then...well...where the hell is your brain?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cultist wrote...
And why do you think I'm not a religious type? Because I hate Chantry? That's just one organization, among other, simply very powerful one. And murdering Leliana is logical as you get power of the dragon's blood AND kill another chantry worshipper.

As I said..motivated by pure hate...

Plot-armored for DA3? No problem at all, I can live with that. That doesn't mean she will be immune after DA3 or spared from suffering during the game. I bet she still got something to lose, something to cherish we can burn and desecrate. After all, even Jesus cried "Father, why have you forsaken me?".

And you prove me again. You express a desire to burn, desecrate and destroy. What is that if not hate?

No, no ofcourse not. The reaver power is useless,right?

In th grand scheem of things...yes.
Also, as I siad - you can get it wihout killing Leliana. Leave her at camp. Lie to her. Simple.

But you don't want to do that. You alread proven - by your own words - that you WANT to murder her. Everything else you say is just smokescreen...excuses.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 03 septembre 2012 - 06:07 .

[Fallstar]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Other than the crazy self-serving villan logic that no normal human being would ascribe too?

As I said - crazy people can justify anything. I can easily justify killing you. That doesn't make it reasonable.

Leliana is a willing follower who wants to help you. She is skilled and hasn't done anything that warrants death.
Unless disagreeing with you warrants death - which is "reasonable" only to crazy people.

You see, a smart person could have easily predict that Leliana will not support you on the whole "destroy ashes" thing. So the best course of action is to not taker her with you and lie to her afterwards.
That way you keep your party at full strength while at the same time fulfilling your objectives...A course of action which is infinitely more reasonable and logical.

No, Leliana does not react too much until you destroy the ashes, play again please or read the DA wiki.

Dude, Leliana is devout and clearly believes in Andraste and the ashes.
If you really though she wouldn't object to you destroying one of the most holy and imporant thing in the universe...then...well...where the hell is your brain?

But if she's not present, all it takes is a persuade check and a shiny necklace to make her forget the whole thing. Real devout.

[jackofalltrades456]

syllogi wrote...

I'd like fewer NPC cameos from characters who were LIs in previous games, so we can use our imagination as to where they end up after the game ends, so I'm more concerned with the idea that Leliana could be back and not acknowledge a potential romance with the Warden..

This was my prime issue with her sudden return in the sequel. I've notice a pattern with how Gaider handles choices importing over into the next game.  It seems that the more relevant the choice is to the plot, (Leliana, Anders, Mage Boon, Dalish boon...) seem to get ignored while choices had no impact (Alistair, Dwarven King, Sophia Dryden.) were fully acknowledged. That's why I have a bad feeling that Leliana is going to be victim to more handwaves in the Dragon age 3..

I hope I'm wrong....

[Lotion Soronarr]

DuskWarden wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Dude, Leliana is devout and clearly believes in Andraste and the ashes.
If you really though she wouldn't object to you destroying one of the most holy and imporant thing in the universe...then...well...where the hell is your brain?

But if she's not present, all it takes is a persuade check and a shiny necklace to make her forget the whole thing. Real devout.

You mean because you convinced her you didn't destroy it?
I fail to see the conncetion between that and being devout. Unless being devout makes one magicly able to read minds and detect truth....

[Rawgrim]

Truth be told: When I first did the Sacred Ashes quest, I had no idea I would get the chance to desecrate it. So no reason for me not to bring Leliana along. As a side-note: Leliana claims the maker speaks to her. She also kills people for her church. How many real life nutcases claims they killed people because Jesus told them to? She isn`t as bad as Anders, but she doesn`t scream of mental health either.

As an elven Mage, being supressed by the chantry and everything that comes with it, I felt it was in character to desecrate the ashes. I figured if I didn`t, the chantry would get more "ammo". Besides. Leliana attacked me; not the other way around. I only did this in my first playthrough, however.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rawgrim wrote...

Truth be told: When I first did the Sacred Ashes quest, I had no idea I would get the chance to desecrate it. So no reason for me not to bring Leliana along. As a side-note: Leliana claims the maker speaks to her. She also kills people for her church. How many real life nutcases claims they killed people because Jesus told them to? She isn`t as bad as Anders, but she doesn`t scream of mental health either.

Don't take that literal. she explains in better if you listen to her.
She is in no way extremist or crazy - she's actually what most religious folk should be like.
But I guess some people consider anyone who is religious crazy.

As for killing for the Church...when? Leli wasn't working for the Chantry in DA:O and we only see in her in DA2 when she helps the player defeat an ambush.

As an elven Mage, being supressed by the chantry and everything that
comes with it, I felt it was in character to desecrate the ashes. I
figured if I didn`t, the chantry would get more "ammo". Besides. Leliana
attacked me; not the other way around. I only did this in my first
playthrough, however.

Sounds like your mage has a very frail faith if he feels so thretened by Andraste.
Also, I can't say desecrating the remains of someone - especailly if that someone helped elves gain freedom - is anything BUT despicable.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 04 septembre 2012 - 06:30 .

[LobselVith8]

jackofalltrades456 wrote...

This was my prime issue with her sudden return in the sequel. I've notice a pattern with how Gaider handles choices importing over into the next game.  It seems that the more relevant the choice is to the plot, (Leliana, Anders, Mage Boon, Dalish boon...) seem to get ignored while choices had no impact (Alistair, Dwarven King, Sophia Dryden.) were fully acknowledged. That's why I have a bad feeling that Leliana is going to be victim to more handwaves in the Dragon age 3..

I hope I'm wrong....

Those decisions really make little sense, and I don't know why Gaider operates that way. It perplexes me.

[Rawgrim]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Truth be told: When I first did the Sacred Ashes quest, I had no idea I would get the chance to desecrate it. So no reason for me not to bring Leliana along. As a side-note: Leliana claims the maker speaks to her. She also kills people for her church. How many real life nutcases claims they killed people because Jesus told them to? She isn`t as bad as Anders, but she doesn`t scream of mental health either.

Don't take that literal. she explains in better if you listen to her.
She is in no way extremist or crazy - she's actually what most religious folk should be like.
But I guess some people consider anyone who is religious crazy.

As for killing for the Church...when? Leli wasn't working for the Chantry in DA:O and we only see in her in DA2 when she helps the player defeat an ambush.

As an elven Mage, being supressed by the chantry and everything that
comes with it, I felt it was in character to desecrate the ashes. I
figured if I didn`t, the chantry would get more "ammo". Besides. Leliana
attacked me; not the other way around. I only did this in my first
playthrough, however.

Sounds like your mage has a very frail faith if he feels so thretened by Andraste.
Also, I can't say desecrating the remains of someone - especailly if that someone helped elves gain freedom - is anything despicable.

She is working for the church in DA:O. When you first meet her, you can see she has a Seeker amulet in her inventory.

[Wulfram]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Those decisions really make little sense, and I don't know why Gaider operates that way. It perplexes me.

It's easier to add a little cameo than to rewrite the whole plot.

[jackofalltrades456]

Wulfram wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Those decisions really make little sense, and I don't know why Gaider operates that way. It perplexes me.

It's easier to add a little cameo than to rewrite the whole plot.

Translation: lazy writing...

[Cultist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
As I said..motivated by pure hate...
And you prove me again. You express a desire to burn, desecrate and destroy. What is that if not hate?

But you don't want to do that. You alread proven - by your own words - that you WANT to murder her. Everything else you say is just smokescreen...excuses.
Demonic spirits teach more than blood magic. Reavers terrorize their enemies, feast upon the souls of their slain opponents to heal their own flesh, and can unleash a blood frenzy that makes them more powerful as they come nearer to their own deaths.

Reaver is driven by hatred and malice. Of course there will be pure hate! Same goes for Blood Mage.
Excuses for what? That I want to murder her? I stated that at page 1 of this topic.

Modifié par Cultist, 04 septembre 2012 - 06:34 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rawgrim wrote...
She is working for the church in DA:O. When you first meet her, you can see she has a Seeker amulet in her inventory.

I don't recall any amulet. Even if there was any, it proves nothing other that she has an amulet with a known and pwoerfull symbolism.

And as I siad before - desecrating Andrastes remains is a vile act, especially for a elven mage.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
As I said..motivated by pure hate...
And you prove me again. You express a desire to burn, desecrate and destroy. What is that if not hate?

But you don't want to do that. You alread proven - by your own words - that you WANT to murder her. Everything else you say is just smokescreen...excuses.

Demonic spirits teach more than blood magic. Reavers terrorize their enemies, feast upon the souls of their slain opponents to heal their own flesh, and can unleash a blood frenzy that makes them more powerful as they come nearer to their own deaths.

Reaver is driven by hatred and malice. Of course there will be pure hate! Same goes for Blood Mage.
Excuses for what? That I want to murder her? I stated that at page 1 of this topic.

Again proving me right.
Only evil and despicable characters would kill her.
You hate Leliana, as it is obvious in the way you refer to her - with derogatory terms. Harpy. B***. Zealous nutcase.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 04 septembre 2012 - 06:37 .