766 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

Spicen wrote...

Did you forget what Marjolaine said, never trust Leliana, never trust one word. Although the idea that she is a chantry agent is a theory, there are elements which makes sense.

Moreover she goes on to say that she discovered Andraste's ashes, if you let her and the ashes leave. The truth is that like every real world religious followers(not the religion itself) the Chantry will take advantage and run the place like a business firm. Just think, ten sovereigns per head and soon they will be richer than the Royal family of Orlais.

Moreover, she goes on to kill the warden, the very person she chose to follow because the maker "told" her that the warden was the key to the blight problem. She would have killed a man/woman who will save millions of lives in Fereldan- for what, some ashes of a long dead women. The height of her crime crosses the "crime" of Anders by ten folds. And i have to say she is worse than Anders. Atleast Anders has a demon in his head, and he is trying to control it, but as for Leliana, she has no demons but yet goes on to cause a crime that would have crippled Thedas.

My Verdict: Due to her ignorance of the crime she almost caused, she will be hanged until death.....................oh wait she is still alive but as the verdict goes, hanged until DEATH.

Ah, yes, sure, I'll just take the paranoid bardmaster's word for it. <_<

Your cynicism towards real world religious organizations is noted and discarded as irrelevant.

She will only try to kill the Warden if you do something that, to her, damns all of Thedas in the eyes of the Maker.  Will you next tell me that she has omniscient foresight that allows her to know the Warden will succeed in even slowing down the Blight?  Besides, even with your Warden gone, Alistair still can finish the job and the rest of the Wardens in Orlais are on their way.  Her only crime is defending her beliefs from a jerk that thinks it fun to defile other people's holy relics.

[Rawgrim]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
Given that she shows up as a Seeker in DA2, its a pretty clear indication that she has been working for the church for a long time. Unless they hand out seeker amulets to everyone. Its kind of a smoking gun that she has that amulet in her inventory...

You means just like anyone who has a cross symbol somewhere on their person works for the Catholic Church?
Oh wait.....

Yeah...because there is no difference between a chantry amulet and a seeker amulet...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rawgrim wrote...
Yeah...because there is no difference between a chantry amulet and a seeker amulet...

Not  much actually. Both are representative of the same religion.

You'd be surprised how man different symbols ther are for the Catholic Church and it's many orders for example, and how many people use such symbols often.
Regardless, it's been confirmed by word of God that you are wrong in that regard, so what's the point of continuing this?

[Rogue Unit]

thats1evildude wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...

No, if you agree to hear Kolgrim out, he summons and soothes and high dragon that they claim to worship. I'd be wary of attacking him and the remainder of his allies in the presence of this "reborn Andaste".

The high dragon ignores you even if you kill Kolgrim. You have to actually alert the beast to your presence with a for it to attack you. That's not a persuasive argument.

You wouldn't know that until after you attack him or through metagaming.

And once again, you wouldn't know what the Chantry woul do with the Ashes unless you're metagaming. Given how they collar mages, illegally control the leadership of Kirkwall, and turn their own templars into pseudo-slaves, I'd be reluctant to give them anymore power than they aready possess. Plus, the guardian flat-out tells you that Kolgrim and his group are misguided in their worship of Andaste. Destroying the Ashes doesn't return any power at all to the dragon, they're still at square one.

They don't have the numbers or firepower to pose a legitimate threat to Ferelden at the moment, they can be dealt with later. They do have the numbers and power to deal with a four-man team thats being doing nothing but fighting since they arrived in Haven.

Modifié par Rogue Unit, 05 septembre 2012 - 07:13 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rogue Unit wrote...
And once again, you wouldn't know what the Chantry woul do with the Ashes unless you're metagaming.

What CAN they do? It's an ancient temple with an artifiact with amazing healing properties.
There's not much you can do with it.
And even secular organizations would turn into a shrine/museum/tourist location rather than bulldoze it.
After all, it provides a source of income and prosperity for the region.

Given how they collar mages, illegally control the leadership of Kirkwall, and turn their own templars into pseudo-slaves, I'd be reluctant to give them anymore power than they aready possess.

Yes, lets ignore everything good the Chantry does. Like being a patron for arts and science, providing succor, shelter and food, preserving knowledge, etc, etc..
Because clearly a few mages are more important than 95% of the population.

Plus, the guardian flat-out tells you that Kolgrim and his group are
misguided in their worship of Andaste. Destroying the Ashes doesn't
return any power at all to the dragon, they're still at square one.

Them being misguided doesn't mean nothing negative can come from it.
Clearly the ashes bother them.
Clearly the ashes have potent healing properties.  At the very least you rob the world of a potent heling agent, and rob thousands of hope.

They don't have the numbers or firepower to pose a legitimate threat to Ferelden at the moment, they can be dealt with later. They do have the numbers and power to deal with a four-man team thats being doing nothing but fighting since they arrived in Haven.

I dunno. Them being insane and killing everyone who comes in the village in crazy rituals doens't bode well for the countryside once they start their expansion.
They may not be a threat to Ferelden (unless they get a large cult following), but all the peopel killed by them would disagree with them being harmless.

[Rawgrim]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
Yeah...because there is no difference between a chantry amulet and a seeker amulet...

Not  much actually. Both are representative of the same religion.

You'd be surprised how man different symbols ther are for the Catholic Church and it's many orders for example, and how many people use such symbols often.
Regardless, it's been confirmed by word of God that you are wrong in that regard, so what's the point of continuing this?

Where exactly has this been confirmed?

[Lotion Soronarr]

I think in he Leliana thread.
Not really sure anymore.

But the point is that even without WoG, there's plenty of holes in that theory andit remains nothing but a conjecture.

[whykikyouwhy]

Rawgrim wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
Yeah...because there is no difference between a chantry amulet and a seeker amulet...

Not  much actually. Both are representative of the same religion.

You'd be surprised how man different symbols ther are for the Catholic Church and it's many orders for example, and how many people use such symbols often.
Regardless, it's been confirmed by word of God that you are wrong in that regard, so what's the point of continuing this?

Where exactly has this been confirmed?

I don't think there has been confirmation, but the description of the item itself is pretty innocuous:

"A wheel representing the Maker's unending patience and Andraste's unquenchable passion. Simple and inspirational, though uncommon outside the Chantry. A gift meant to be given without conditions." (wiki page)

I read that as it being symbolic of the act of seeking - seeking the way, seeking the path/light/etc of the Maker. So "seeker" lower-case, as a role someone of faith takes on, versus "Seeker" upper-case, as a title bestowed upon someone of the Order.

[Spicen]

Well what Leliana truly is, will be found in DA 3. I am getting excited. Cant wait for Dec 2013.

[Spicen]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Did you forget what Marjolaine said, never trust Leliana, never trust one word. Although the idea that she is a chantry agent is a theory, there are elements which makes sense.

Moreover she goes on to say that she discovered Andraste's ashes, if you let her and the ashes leave. The truth is that like every real world religious followers(not the religion itself) the Chantry will take advantage and run the place like a business firm. Just think, ten sovereigns per head and soon they will be richer than the Royal family of Orlais.

Moreover, she goes on to kill the warden, the very person she chose to follow because the maker "told" her that the warden was the key to the blight problem. She would have killed a man/woman who will save millions of lives in Fereldan- for what, some ashes of a long dead women. The height of her crime crosses the "crime" of Anders by ten folds. And i have to say she is worse than Anders. Atleast Anders has a demon in his head, and he is trying to control it, but as for Leliana, she has no demons but yet goes on to cause a crime that would have crippled Thedas.

My Verdict: Due to her ignorance of the crime she almost caused, she will be hanged until death.....................oh wait she is still alive but as the verdict goes, hanged until DEATH.

Ah, yes, sure, I'll just take the paranoid bardmaster's word for it. <_<

Your cynicism towards real world religious organizations is noted and discarded as irrelevant.

She will only try to kill the Warden if you do something that, to her, damns all of Thedas in the eyes of the Maker.  Will you next tell me that she has omniscient foresight that allows her to know the Warden will succeed in even slowing down the Blight?  Besides, even with your Warden gone, Alistair still can finish the job and the rest of the Wardens in Orlais are on their way.  Her only crime is defending her beliefs from a jerk that thinks it fun to defile other people's holy relics.

Bioware tends to give info like this, usually in dialogues or phrases. Like Morrigan said that a certain change was coming to the world, in the same way BW used Marjolaine to tell the players, what Leliana truly is.

As for real world religion, you dint know me, i dont know you. Discussion about this point is over.(And if u want to know what i am read pg 1-10 of this thread. You will find i am no atheist,.)

The thing is that in my first playthrough, i made decisions i would make if i was in the warden's shoes. I at that time did not know the power of the blight, so i thought if anything was available to give me an edge id take it, so i did. I NEVER expected her to attck me, bear in mind she protested little(even had no approval change) when Kolgrim offered me. I felt betrayed, and i DO NOT like getting betrayed. When i was done with her i was disappointed there was no cutscene. But i enjoyed killing her, nonetheless. She BETRAYED the Warden for some Ashes, an act that would have crippled the entire nation, had she been successful. Millions of people would have died.

Let me see your morality- if you were in Leliana's shoes, would you have killed the warden for destroying some ashes that will probably at the very least destroy Fereldan. Thousands of women would hav been turned into broodmothers while thousands more would have been massacred, then the Darkspawn force would have been too large to stop solely by Orlais.

It is your choice Lord Aesir, would you have chosen the ashes of one women over the lives of millions?

[Cultist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Neither did I.
I did said that killing Leleiana and desecrating the ashes is evil. Ruthless, merciless and selfish - kinda fits the domain of evil, no?
I also said that trusting Kolgrim is stupid.

It kinds fits the domain of effectiveness and pragmatism. And Kolgrim kept to his word in the end.

Not the same thing, but lets suppose it is the same thing.
So what?
Your'e saing I'm not allowed to point out stupid decisions?

And of course it is obvious that killing Anders and siding with templars and the Chantry is a stupid decision.

Except that is a catch phrase and not proof.
Do we have to get back to the whole "justifying" argument? I thought we were pass it.
Look, I can justify to myself skinning you alive, that doesn't make it right.

Yes it does. If you can justify it - it does make it right for you. There is no universal Good or universal Evil, only points of view. If I can justify killing someone it makes it right for me. Society can render me criminal but for me it is right.
So for some players, if action X will harm and help destroy the Chantry, then X is a viable course of action.

[Spicen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...
And once again, you wouldn't know what the Chantry woul do with the Ashes unless you're metagaming.

What CAN they do? It's an ancient temple with an artifiact with amazing healing properties.
There's not much you can do with it.
And even secular organizations would turn into a shrine/museum/tourist location rather than bulldoze it.
After all, it provides a source of income and prosperity for the region.

Given how they collar mages, illegally control the leadership of Kirkwall, and turn their own templars into pseudo-slaves, I'd be reluctant to give them anymore power than they aready possess.

Yes, lets ignore everything good the Chantry does. Like being a patron for arts and science, providing succor, shelter and food, preserving knowledge, etc, etc..
Because clearly a few mages are more important than 95% of the population.

Plus, the guardian flat-out tells you that Kolgrim and his group are
misguided in their worship of Andaste. Destroying the Ashes doesn't
return any power at all to the dragon, they're still at square one.

Them being misguided doesn't mean nothing negative can come from it.
Clearly the ashes bother them.
Clearly the ashes have potent healing properties.  At the very least you rob the world of a potent heling agent, and rob thousands of hope.

They don't have the numbers or firepower to pose a legitimate threat to Ferelden at the moment, they can be dealt with later. They do have the numbers and power to deal with a four-man team thats being doing nothing but fighting since they arrived in Haven.

I dunno. Them being insane and killing everyone who comes in the village in crazy rituals doens't bode well for the countryside once they start their expansion.
They may not be a threat to Ferelden (unless they get a large cult following), but all the peopel killed by them would disagree with them being harmless.

1) So you think it is good to profiteer from pilgrims? THIS is the very reason why the Catholic church fell. They started selling fortune cookies for 100 golds. Not a very positive direction for the religion. And i dont think that the Maker will enjoy seeing people profiteer from his bride's corpse. It is better to be never found or better be destroyed. Do you think Christ, Muhammad, or Moses said, "hey im a prophet and have miraculous powers, 1000 golds per display?"
2) Yes you for once are right the chantry does good things. I support the chantry but their inability to manage the templars is a threat to the religion. And for me, the Exalted March on the Dalish was utterly rubbish.
3)There are plenty things that can heal people. +Didnt u hear duncan, there is sth called, "for the greater good." It is better to destroy the ashes then let the Chantry abuse the power of the ashes. This is the same reason why i will destroy time machine if it is ever created, it can be used for bad purposes and potentially destroy the balance of nature. There are certain powers in the world that should not fall in the hands of men.
4)Oh, come on if the warden can outright kill the whole village do you think they will pose threats, if any? By the way i destroyed the ashes and attacked Kolgrim and killed the dragon too, 3-in-1.

[Spicen]

Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Neither did I.
I did said that killing Leleiana and desecrating the ashes is evil. Ruthless, merciless and selfish - kinda fits the domain of evil, no?
I also said that trusting Kolgrim is stupid.

It kinds fits the domain of effectiveness and pragmatism. And Kolgrim kept to his word in the end.

Not the same thing, but lets suppose it is the same thing.
So what?
Your'e saing I'm not allowed to point out stupid decisions?

And of course it is obvious that killing Anders and siding with templars and the Chantry is a stupid decision.

Except that is a catch phrase and not proof.
Do we have to get back to the whole "justifying" argument? I thought we were pass it.
Look, I can justify to myself skinning you alive, that doesn't make it right.

Yes it does. If you can justify it - it does make it right for you. There is no universal Good or universal Evil, only points of view. If I can justify killing someone it makes it right for me. Society can render me criminal but for me it is right.
So for some players, if action X will harm and help destroy the Chantry, then X is a viable course of action.

While i dont support killing evryone i have to say bioware giving us an option to kill liliana was a good call. It is choices like these which makes DAO a better game than the Chantry blesses Hawke of DA 2.

And it is not only about the chantry you also have to question leliana's decision to turn on the warden. If all the chantry sisters are like leliana, the chantry is going to go" "

Modifié par Spicen, 06 septembre 2012 - 11:04 .

[Heimdall]

Spicen wrote...

Bioware tends to give info like this, usually in dialogues or phrases. Like Morrigan said that a certain change was coming to the world, in the same way BW used Marjolaine to tell the players, what Leliana truly is.

As for real world religion, you dint know me, i dont know you. Discussion about this point is over.(And if u want to know what i am read pg 1-10 of this thread. You will find i am no atheist,.)

The thing is that in my first playthrough, i made decisions i would make if i was in the warden's shoes. I at that time did not know the power of the blight, so i thought if anything was available to give me an edge id take it, so i did. I NEVER expected her to attck me, bear in mind she protested little(even had no approval change) when Kolgrim offered me. I felt betrayed, and i DO NOT like getting betrayed. When i was done with her i was disappointed there was no cutscene. But i enjoyed killing her, nonetheless. She BETRAYED the Warden for some Ashes, an act that would have crippled the entire nation, had she been successful. Millions of people would have died.

Let me see your morality- if you were in Leliana's shoes, would you have killed the warden for destroying some ashes that will probably at the very least destroy Fereldan. Thousands of women would hav been turned into broodmothers while thousands more would have been massacred, then the Darkspawn force would have been too large to stop solely by Orlais.

It is your choice Lord Aesir, would you have chosen the ashes of one women over the lives of millions?

therefore everything Marjolaine says is true but everything Leliana says is a lie?  Be a little consistent would you.

I don't care about your opinions on real world religion, so I have no desire to read up on them.  You were the one that brought them up.

You betrayed her, can't you see that?  If someone I trusted violated my own deeply held religious beliefs and desecrated the Ashes of a very important figure to my faith, I would consider it a betrayal.  Don't be so dramatic.  You once again act as if Leliana has some sort of omniscience regarding the Warden's role.  Remember, nobody in the party knows that a Warden is needed to kill the Archdemon at that point.  So tell me why she couldn't believe Alistair perfectly capable of carrying the Warden's treaties to the elves dwarves, and mages?

If that were the choice, you may be right.  The choice Leliana faced was letting a vile man profit from destroying a sacred relic with the power to save countless lives in the future or not.

[Spicen]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Bioware tends to give info like this, usually in dialogues or phrases. Like Morrigan said that a certain change was coming to the world, in the same way BW used Marjolaine to tell the players, what Leliana truly is.

As for real world religion, you dint know me, i dont know you. Discussion about this point is over.(And if u want to know what i am read pg 1-10 of this thread. You will find i am no atheist,.)

The thing is that in my first playthrough, i made decisions i would make if i was in the warden's shoes. I at that time did not know the power of the blight, so i thought if anything was available to give me an edge id take it, so i did. I NEVER expected her to attck me, bear in mind she protested little(even had no approval change) when Kolgrim offered me. I felt betrayed, and i DO NOT like getting betrayed. When i was done with her i was disappointed there was no cutscene. But i enjoyed killing her, nonetheless. She BETRAYED the Warden for some Ashes, an act that would have crippled the entire nation, had she been successful. Millions of people would have died.

Let me see your morality- if you were in Leliana's shoes, would you have killed the warden for destroying some ashes that will probably at the very least destroy Fereldan. Thousands of women would hav been turned into broodmothers while thousands more would have been massacred, then the Darkspawn force would have been too large to stop solely by Orlais.

It is your choice Lord Aesir, would you have chosen the ashes of one women over the lives of millions?

therefore everything Marjolaine says is true but everything Leliana says is a lie?  Be a little consistent would you.

I don't care about your opinions on real world religion, so I have no desire to read up on them.  You were the one that brought them up.

You betrayed her, can't you see that?  If someone I trusted violated my own deeply held religious beliefs and desecrated the Ashes of a very important figure to my faith, I would consider it a betrayal.  Don't be so dramatic.  You once again act as if Leliana has some sort of omniscience regarding the Warden's role.  Remember, nobody in the party knows that a Warden is needed to kill the Archdemon at that point.  So tell me why she couldn't believe Alistair perfectly capable of carrying the Warden's treaties to the elves dwarves, and mages?

If that were the choice, you may be right.  The choice Leliana faced was letting a vile man profit from destroying a sacred relic with the power to save countless lives in the future or not.

I never brought up anything regarding real world religion get ur facts right.

I did not know i would betray her, didnt you read, there was little reaction from her when Kolgrim gave an offer to the warden. The warden IS important to stop the blight, it is an establish fact. Alistair tells again and again that they are the key to stopping the bight. And if Lelina did not know that the warden is the key for stopping the blight why did she  pull out all the stops to join the warden. Alistair could be dead at the tower and many places. If he was the one who had the potential to stop the blight BW wud have made him the protagonist. Moreover, Darkspawn chronicles show how badly alistair wud have failed. Moreover, Alistair could have been in the party and likely he might have tried to confront Leliana for killing the warden.

By the way, it is an established fact in thedas that wardens are the only ones that can defeat an archdemon, they only dont know why. Again check your facts, check the wiki for dialogues of leliana, she continuously reiterated her belief that warden was the only solution to the blight.

As for the ashes i already told why i destroyed it there were too many unknowns. anything and everything that could help was welcomed, i hardly expected her to betray me. Kolgrim's choice was an act of DESPERATION for my warden. He hardly knew the power of the blight, so he tried to use any help possible.

Again, i ask the question, what would you have done in leliana's shoes? I await your answer, and dont be emotional, think for one second how many lives will die if you kill the warden.



P.S Atleast you have provided a constructive reply, most L-fanboys seemed like emotional crybabies.

[Heimdall]

Spicen wrote...

I never brought up anything regarding real world religion get ur facts right.

Oh really?

Spicen wrote...
Moreover
she goes on to say that she discovered Andraste's ashes, if you let her
and the ashes leave. The truth is that like every real world religious
followers(not the religion itself) the Chantry will take advantage and
run the place like a business firm. Just think, ten sovereigns per head
and soon they will be richer than the Royal family of Orlais.

  I didn't bring it up, I just told you it was irrelevant.

I did not know i would betray her, didnt you read, there was little reaction from her when Kolgrim gave an offer to the warden. The warden IS important to stop the blight, it is an establish fact. Alistair tells again and again that they are the key to stopping the bight. And if Lelina did not know that the warden is the key for stopping the blight why did she  pull out all the stops to join the warden. Alistair could be dead at the tower and many places. If he was the one who had the potential to stop the blight BW wud have made him the protagonist. Moreover, Darkspawn chronicles show how badly alistair wud have failed. Moreover, Alistair could have been in the party and likely he might have tried to confront Leliana for killing the warden.

  Given her religious views, was it really hard to figre out that she would be angry about desecrating Andraste's remains?  Once again, you are crediting Leliana with an impossible degree of foresight.  She knows that the past Blights have always needed the help of the Wardens to defeat, though as my Warden professed after meeting Riordan, she may have believed need to be an exageration.  The Wardens are the only ones around focused solely on defeating the Blight, for that, wanting the Blight defeated herself, Leliana joined them.  What Bioware didn't do doesn't matter. what matters is that Alistair is a Warden, how would Leliana know how the Darkspawn Chronicles end (Alistair actually didn't do too bad, he got all the way to Denerim at any rate)?  If she had killed the Warden and Alistair was too angry at her to allow her help, I suspect Leliana would have simply left and looked for something else to do to help stop the Blight.

By the way, it is an established fact in thedas that wardens are the only ones that can defeat an archdemon, they only dont know why. Again check your facts, check the wiki for dialogues of leliana, she continuously reiterated her belief that warden was the only solution to the blight.

  It's established that Wardens have always been needed to unite the lands against the Blights, but their necessity in killing an Archdemon is hardly well known.  Good thing the party has a spare Warden, then.  Consider that, in her religious beliefs, on the grand scale of things, the Ashes are probably more significant than the Fifth Blight.  The Blight will be stopped, whether by Alistair or the armies of Wardens and Chevalier coming from Orlais.  I'm not saying it was a perfectly rational decision for her to attack the Warden, in fact I tend to consider it an emotional outburst, but it was a justified one considering what was done.

As for the ashes i already told why i destroyed it there were too many unknowns. anything and everything that could help was welcomed, i hardly expected her to betray me. Kolgrim's choice was an act of DESPERATION for my warden. He hardly knew the power of the blight, so he tried to use any help possible.

Again, i ask the question, what would you have done in leliana's shoes? I await your answer, and dont be emotional, think for one second how many lives will die if you kill the warden.

  What would I have done?  I probably would have hated the Warden with every fiber of my being but probably still helped him fight the Blight.  After the Blight, however, I couldn't guarantee not sliding a dagger between his ribs.  Like I said, I don't think Leliana made a fully rational decision.  Justified, but not entirely rational.

P.S Atleast you have provided a constructive reply, most L-fanboys seemed like emotional crybabies.

Well, thank you.  I'd like to compliment your last few posts as well.  I'm getting a much better picture of why you did what you did.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Spicen wrote...
Bioware tends to give info like this, usually in dialogues or phrases. Like Morrigan said that a certain change was coming to the world, in the same way BW used Marjolaine to tell the players, what Leliana truly is.

Oh? Got any proof of that "hidden truth"?
I mean other than "it must be the truth, even if devs say otehrwise, because I say so"?

As for real world religion, you dint know me, i dont know you. Discussion about this point is over.(And if u want to know what i am read pg 1-10 of this thread. You will find i am no atheist,.)

I don't know wha you are, only what you claim to be and how you act.
And you act like someone who doesn't understand or even try to understand religious people.

The thing is that in my first playthrough, i made decisions i would make if i was in the warden's shoes. I at that time did not know the power of the blight, so i thought if anything was available to give me an edge id take it, so i did. I NEVER expected her to attck me, bear in mind she protested little(even had no approval change) when Kolgrim offered me. I felt betrayed, and i DO NOT like getting betrayed. When i was done with her i was disappointed there was no cutscene. But i enjoyed killing her, nonetheless. She BETRAYED the Warden for some Ashes, an act that would have crippled the entire nation, had she been successful. Millions of people would have died.

There. Right there is a trait I DESPISE in people.
Unlimited arrogance. Not caring.

You never expected her to flip out? ITs like taking a ****** on the grave of Jesus and then acting surprised when your devout christian friends flips out. You're either blind or a terrible frind. OR both.

You felt betrayed? Well, I guess when you betray people everyone should feel good and happy. It is you who betrayed her..who betrayd the world by doing something so sacreligious. And why?
Because some nutjob who kills poeple (and whom no sane person would trust) offered you some hidden power?

You enjoyed killing her? Then you suck. As a human being. Because good people don't enjoy murder,

Just some ashes? We're back to you not understanding their importance OR the feelings of people sorounding you.

Millions would have died? No. Unusable argument and unfounded, since hte future is not etermined and hte Warden wasn't the only one.

Let me see your morality- if you were in Leliana's shoes, would you have killed the warden for destroying some ashes that will probably at the very least destroy Fereldan.

Yes.
Sacred ashes beloving to the chosen bride of the Maker. Ashes with AMAZING HEALING PROPERTIES.
How the frak would they destroy Ferelden?
If anything, desecrating them would p*** the Maker off - if that isn't courting armageddon, nothing is.
And destroying them at the behest of a murdering cultist madman for promises of dark powers.

It is your choice Lord Aesir, would you have chosen the ashes of one women over the lives of millions?

It's a false choice, since saving the ashes doesn't doom milions.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cultist wrote...
It kinds fits the domain of effectiveness and pragmatism. And Kolgrim kept to his word in the end.

Nope it doesn't.
And you're lucky Kolgrim did kep his word. But what made you think he is trustworthy?

If a real-life cultist walked in, would you trust him?

I know games distort the decision-mkaingprocess, because it's game. You can save and re-load. and you are curios.
But when analyzing decision from a realistic perspective...many action peopel normally take in games are downright stupid and would NEVER take them i nreal life.

Except that is a catch phrase and not proof.
Do we have to get back to the whole "justifying" argument? I thought we were pass it.
Look, I can justify to myself skinning you alive, that doesn't make it right.

Yes it does. If you can justify it - it does make it right for you. There is no universal Good or universal Evil, only points of view. If I can justify killing someone it makes it right for me. Society can render me criminal but for me it is right.
So for some players, if action X will harm and help destroy the Chantry, then X is a viable course of action.

No, it doesn't make it right. It makes it twised. Especialyl with flimsy and flawed justifications, based on preconceptions and bias. Extreeme subjectivism leads to nothing but anarchy and chaos.
As proven by your own words.

[RobRam10]

I comepletly agree if you've killed a character they should stay dead! Dunno why Bioware didn't make a replacement for Leliana if she died.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Spicen wrote...
1) So you think it is good to profiteer from pilgrims? THIS is the very reason why the Catholic church fell. They started selling fortune cookies for 100 golds. Not a very positive direction for the religion. And i dont think that the Maker will enjoy seeing people profiteer from his bride's corpse. It is better to be never found or better be destroyed. Do you think Christ, Muhammad, or Moses said, "hey im a prophet and have miraculous powers, 1000 golds per display?"

Spicen, do you even THINK before you post? Fortune cookies?
What do you think that Church has a monopoly on mercantilism? That every merchant near a shrine is in the employ of religion? I've been aroun holy sites and I can tell you that 99% of those have nothing to do with the religious organization in question.

Where poeple flock, merchants follow. You can't ban or forbid it.
If they can't place a stand right next to the church/shrine, the'll place it a bit further away. And poeple who want will buy stuff. And regardless if I find it tastless/tacky or not, it is not within my right to stop it.
Those merchants have to eat too. And who are those merchants? Where do they come from? The countryside.
so yes..apparently increased traffic and income for the region is a bad thing...because you find it tacky!

And even mroe important - who or what gives the Warden the right to decide such thing?

2) Yes you for once are right the chantry does good things. I support the chantry but their inability to manage the templars is a threat to the religion. And for me, the Exalted March on the Dalish was utterly rubbish.

Threat to religion? I don't see how.
Also, the whole thing with the dalish is a big unknown so casting judgment with such fragmented and conflicting information is premature at best.

3)There are plenty things that can heal people. +Didnt u hear duncan, there is sth called, "for the greater good." It is better to destroy the ashes then let the Chantry abuse the power of the ashes. This is the same reason why i will destroy time machine if it is ever created, it can be used for bad purposes and potentially destroy the balance of nature. There are certain powers in the world that should not fall in the hands of men.

How will the Cahtnry abuse it?
And why is it better to destroy it? What "greater good" is achieved by it?

I can cite concrete, specific good things that can come from the ashes.
I can also cite specific bad things that could come from destroying it.
I've yet to see you specify anything about the bad things other than the blanket term "abuse of power"

You talk rubbish without thinking it trough.

4)Oh, come on if the warden can outright kill the whole village do you think they will pose threats, if any? By the way i destroyed the ashes and attacked Kolgrim and killed the dragon too, 3-in-1.

Yes. Becasue not everyone is the Warden.. And since this is a game, the Warden can kill anyone - even if realisticy the Warden should be a stain on the floor.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 06 septembre 2012 - 03:10 .

[Rawgrim]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Spicen wrote...
Bioware tends to give info like this, usually in dialogues or phrases. Like Morrigan said that a certain change was coming to the world, in the same way BW used Marjolaine to tell the players, what Leliana truly is.

Oh? Got any proof of that "hidden truth"?
I mean other than "it must be the truth, even if devs say otehrwise, because I say so"?

As for real world religion, you dint know me, i dont know you. Discussion about this point is over.(And if u want to know what i am read pg 1-10 of this thread. You will find i am no atheist,.)

I don't know wha you are, only what you claim to be and how you act.
And you act like someone who doesn't understand or even try to understand religious people.

The thing is that in my first playthrough, i made decisions i would make if i was in the warden's shoes. I at that time did not know the power of the blight, so i thought if anything was available to give me an edge id take it, so i did. I NEVER expected her to attck me, bear in mind she protested little(even had no approval change) when Kolgrim offered me. I felt betrayed, and i DO NOT like getting betrayed. When i was done with her i was disappointed there was no cutscene. But i enjoyed killing her, nonetheless. She BETRAYED the Warden for some Ashes, an act that would have crippled the entire nation, had she been successful. Millions of people would have died.

There. Right there is a trait I DESPISE in people.
Unlimited arrogance. Not caring.

You never expected her to flip out? ITs like taking a ****** on the grave of Jesus and then acting surprised when your devout christian friends flips out. You're either blind or a terrible frind. OR both.

You felt betrayed? Well, I guess when you betray people everyone should feel good and happy. It is you who betrayed her..who betrayd the world by doing something so sacreligious. And why?
Because some nutjob who kills poeple (and whom no sane person would trust) offered you some hidden power?

You enjoyed killing her? Then you suck. As a human being. Because good people don't enjoy murder,

Just some ashes? We're back to you not understanding their importance OR the feelings of people sorounding you.

Millions would have died? No. Unusable argument and unfounded, since hte future is not etermined and hte Warden wasn't the only one.

Let me see your morality- if you were in Leliana's shoes, would you have killed the warden for destroying some ashes that will probably at the very least destroy Fereldan.

Yes.
Sacred ashes beloving to the chosen bride of the Maker. Ashes with AMAZING HEALING PROPERTIES.
How the frak would they destroy Ferelden?
If anything, desecrating them would p*** the Maker off - if that isn't courting armageddon, nothing is.
And destroying them at the behest of a murdering cultist madman for promises of dark powers.

It is your choice Lord Aesir, would you have chosen the ashes of one women over the lives of millions?

It's a false choice, since saving the ashes doesn't doom milions.

Having fun killing a videogame character isn`t the same as having fun killing a real human. Just saying it. I have had alot of fun shooting my friends in fps games. I guess that makes be a downright bad person, and evil.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rawgrim wrote...
Having fun killing a videogame character isn`t the same as having fun killing a real human. Just saying it. I have had alot of fun shooting my friends in fps games. I guess that makes be a downright bad person, and evil.

It isn't the same, but it does show a level of bloodlust and hate.

Also FPS shootout and character in a world who have personality and a history- not the same.

[Spicen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Spicen wrote...
Bioware tends to give info like this, usually in dialogues or phrases. Like Morrigan said that a certain change was coming to the world, in the same way BW used Marjolaine to tell the players, what Leliana truly is.

Oh? Got any proof of that "hidden truth"?
I mean other than "it must be the truth, even if devs say otehrwise, because I say so"?

As for real world religion, you dint know me, i dont know you. Discussion about this point is over.(And if u want to know what i am read pg 1-10 of this thread. You will find i am no atheist,.)

I don't know wha you are, only what you claim to be and how you act.
And you act like someone who doesn't understand or even try to understand religious people.

The thing is that in my first playthrough, i made decisions i would make if i was in the warden's shoes. I at that time did not know the power of the blight, so i thought if anything was available to give me an edge id take it, so i did. I NEVER expected her to attck me, bear in mind she protested little(even had no approval change) when Kolgrim offered me. I felt betrayed, and i DO NOT like getting betrayed. When i was done with her i was disappointed there was no cutscene. But i enjoyed killing her, nonetheless. She BETRAYED the Warden for some Ashes, an act that would have crippled the entire nation, had she been successful. Millions of people would have died.

There. Right there is a trait I DESPISE in people.
Unlimited arrogance. Not caring.

You never expected her to flip out? ITs like taking a ****** on the grave of Jesus and then acting surprised when your devout christian friends flips out. You're either blind or a terrible frind. OR both.

You felt betrayed? Well, I guess when you betray people everyone should feel good and happy. It is you who betrayed her..who betrayd the world by doing something so sacreligious. And why?
Because some nutjob who kills poeple (and whom no sane person would trust) offered you some hidden power?

You enjoyed killing her? Then you suck. As a human being. Because good people don't enjoy murder,

Just some ashes? We're back to you not understanding their importance OR the feelings of people sorounding you.

Millions would have died? No. Unusable argument and unfounded, since hte future is not etermined and hte Warden wasn't the only one.

Let me see your morality- if you were in Leliana's shoes, would you have killed the warden for destroying some ashes that will probably at the very least destroy Fereldan.

Yes.
Sacred ashes beloving to the chosen bride of the Maker. Ashes with AMAZING HEALING PROPERTIES.
How the frak would they destroy Ferelden?
If anything, desecrating them would p*** the Maker off - if that isn't courting armageddon, nothing is.
And destroying them at the behest of a murdering cultist madman for promises of dark powers.

It is your choice Lord Aesir, would you have chosen the ashes of one women over the lives of millions?

It's a false choice, since saving the ashes doesn't doom milions.

No, considering she hardly reacted when kolgrim gave the warden the offer, i thought she really knew how desperate the situation is. But then i defile the ashes and lo, she says" How dare you defile the ashes, time to die." Atleast when kolgrim gave the offer she should have said, "Mr. Warden Andraste is the maker's bride, dont destroy her last pieces, please, i am religious and i need to defend it if need be." But NO, that arrogant bi*ch said,"i dont think this is a good idea."

Unusable argument, eh? How long havnt you played DAO. There was Alistair, Eamon and etc, etc who told that the warden was the last hope. Gaming lore specifies 100 times that the Warden is the only key. Do you think Flemeth saved the warden out of charity? Oh, she saved Alistair because she knows that it is important for Alistair to be the king of fereldan. So yees, killing the warden would have resulted into the fall of Fereldan.
If you do not believe the FACTS then i have nothing more to say to you.

Here i point out that you do not read properly. I said that it was a time of desperation- you know DESPERATION, Lothering has fallen, the army at Ostagar has fallen, the whole Fereldan in civil war, in such a situation the warden would have been in serious doubt that he can save Fereldan, if it happend in real time. If i was in his shoes i would have taken the offer of Kolgrim, because i would have been in a situation of disarray. Desperation would force me to take the option. Sacrifices have to be made. Leliana should have been ready to sacrifice too. But instead she went on the attack and got what she deserved. As i said it was my 1st playthrough, where i usually make decisions which i would have made in real life. In my canon, everybody including Leliana survives, even though it was very difficult to do it. In my pshyco playthrough i killed everyone including myself.

Saving the ashes does not doom anyone, killing the warden dooms everyone.

[Spicen]

double post

Modifié par Spicen, 06 septembre 2012 - 04:03 .