766 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

The chantry's goodwill is worth a pile of wyvern droppings. Never during the game will they offer you anything more than a worthless blessing, with the exception of Redcliffe, which I'm not counting. The Cultists offer you the reaver spec and a place as Andraste's new champion...okay that's equally worthless. So neither is really more beneficial to the warden's mission, and both are, therefore, valid options.

How do you come to that conclusion? You make no sense whatsoever.

The Chantry is pretty much the most powerfull organization in Thedas.
By what broken logic is having their protection useless? Being backed up by their word, their clout, their influence - that is nothing?

During the game they don't offer you anything because you never did have their full support. The Devs never went that route (since I guess it would make the game too easy...or they just didn't think of that).

So no. Not equally valid, no matter what abortion of logic you attempt to use.

If the protagonist doesn't trust or like the Andrastian Chantry - possibly the Surana Warden, for instance - then they might not want to get involved with the Chantry.

[Suspire]

I want to play evil aligned characters sometimes, being able to kill people for whatever reason would be cool. But that's very rarily possible in rpgs sadly, specially nowadays. Fallout 1/2 you could kill anyone you wanted, it was a blast to kill every living thing in every town sometimes hahah.

[Heimdall]

Destroying or saving the ashes are equally valid choices, but it you destroy them you shouldn't be surprised that it might tick off a few people.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

The chantry's goodwill is worth a pile of wyvern droppings. Never during the game will they offer you anything more than a worthless blessing, with the exception of Redcliffe, which I'm not counting. The Cultists offer you the reaver spec and a place as Andraste's new champion...okay that's equally worthless. So neither is really more beneficial to the warden's mission, and both are, therefore, valid options.

How do you come to that conclusion? You make no sense whatsoever.

The Chantry is pretty much the most powerfull organization in Thedas.
By what broken logic is having their protection useless? Being backed up by their word, their clout, their influence - that is nothing?

During the game they don't offer you anything because you never did have their full support. The Devs never went that route (since I guess it would make the game too easy...or they just didn't think of that).

So no. Not equally valid, no matter what abortion of logic you attempt to use.

If the protagonist doesn't trust or like the Andrastian Chantry - possibly the Surana Warden, for instance - then they might not want to get involved with the Chantry.

Which is pretty stupid because there's a Blight knocking. Soemthing that can frak up the entire world. You need all the help you can get.
Why do you think the Warden goes on recruiting the help of everyone he can find - elves, dwarves, warevols, whomever?

Refusing to ask for help from the Chantry because of a petty dislike is a utter faliure to be a Warden.
It's putting ones own biases in front of the interests and survival of the world. It's petty it's short-sighted.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I asked for assistance of any kind, they say that since Loghain's got a price on my head, they can't associate with me. I know enough of the history of the catholic church to know that, if it's the same thing, they are as corrupt and material as any nobleman
I never said to turn away help, I never said to not help anyone. I
simply said that they refused to associate with me on the grounds of
being a warden, a goddamn hero. That is enough to earn my ire. Even that
templar in Lothering did more for me than any of the official chantry
folks.

Again - you asked a Reverend Mother of Lothering, who CANNOT help you. She simply doesn't have the clout or resources. What part of "entire village full of refugees" did you miss? The entire village is full of injured and hungry people - and there isn't enough to go around. And everyone looks to her for ansers. She's snappy and asks you for a donation - but in her place, wouldn't you be the same?

One Reverend Mother does not the Chantry make.

The question isn't if there is corruption - there's always some in large organizations. The question is - can the Chantry help you in teh fight against the Blight. And do you have a leverage.
The answer to both is a big, fat yes.

And while you call yourself a hero, there's no way for her to know. You ARE called a traitor. What, do you think just because you're a Warden everoyne should kiss your feet? Like Warden aren't just humans - thus also corruptable and full of rotten apples? You might be a good guy or you might be a king-slayer and traitor.
You should consider yourself lucky that she lets you go unmolested given the circumstances. After all, the Wardens aren't the most beloved in Ferelden given their history, and Lohgain is much beloved. When the king dies and he sez you did it, 99% will believe him.

EDIT: I said "most any" Lothering she won't even talk to you, in Redcliffe you have to coerce her into telling a little white lie.

So? She doesn't see much value in lying to people, especially if she promises something she can't deliver upon. You think her a bad person for that?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 septembre 2012 - 06:30 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Destroying or saving the ashes are equally valid choices, but it you destroy them you shouldn't be surprised that it might tick off a few people.

Valid in what context?

As a roleplaying option? Yes.

As helping you get rid of the Blight? Not really. Quite the opposite.

But as you said - BioWare dropped the ball wiht the ashes, as there are absolutely no consequences worthy of mention.

Imagine if you had the option to kill Cailan early on (in front of witnesses), and that having no impact on the game whatsoever.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 septembre 2012 - 12:00 .

[SpunkyMonkey]

There's something wrong with you if you want to kill a sexy, bi-sexual red-head

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I asked for assistance of any kind, they say that since Loghain's got a price on my head, they can't associate with me. I know enough of the history of the catholic church to know that, if it's the same thing, they are as corrupt and material as any nobleman
I never said to turn away help, I never said to not help anyone. I
simply said that they refused to associate with me on the grounds of
being a warden, a goddamn hero. That is enough to earn my ire. Even that
templar in Lothering did more for me than any of the official chantry
folks.

Again - you asked a Reverend Mother of Lothering, who CANNOT help you. She simply doesn't have the clout or resources. What part of "entire village full of refugees" did you miss? The entire village is full of injured and hungry people - and there isn't enough to go around. And everyone looks to her for ansers. She's snappy and asks you for a donation - but in her place, wouldn't you be the same?

One Reverend Mother does not the Chantry make.

The question isn't if there is corruption - there's always some in large organizations. The question is - can the Chantry help you in teh fight against the Blight. And do you have a leverage.
The answer to both is a big, fat yes.

And while you call yourself a hero, there's no way for her to know. You ARE called a traitor. What, do you think just because you're a Warden everoyne should kiss your feet? Like Warden aren't just humans - thus also corruptable and full of rotten apples? You might be a good guy or you might be a king-slayer and traitor.
You should consider yourself lucky that she lets you go unmolested given the circumstances. After all, the Wardens aren't the most beloved in Ferelden given their history, and Lohgain is much beloved. When the king dies and he sez you did it, 99% will believe him.

EDIT: I said "most any" Lothering she won't even talk to you, in Redcliffe you have to coerce her into telling a little white lie.

So? She doesn't see much value in lying to people, especially if she promises something she can't deliver upon. You think her a bad person for that?

She(Lothering) could've given me the goddamn key without me threatening her life.
The chantry could help with the Blight, I'll admit. The point is that they don't, ever. I just finished "The Stolen Throne" and have even moe reason to hate the chantry.
As for Redcliffe, there is a time to act on your morals. When your trying to keeping a village full of scared, undertrained citizens alive is not the time. She is a bad person for being unwilling to do everything in her power to help, deceitful or no.

Modifié par Auintus, 11 septembre 2012 - 01:03 .

[Auintus]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

There's something wrong with you if you want to kill a sexy, bi-sexual red-head

That depends entirely on your priorities.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Destroying or saving the ashes are equally valid choices, but it you destroy them you shouldn't be surprised that it might tick off a few people.

Valid in what context?

As a roleplaying option? Yes.

As helping you get rid of the Blight? Not really. Quite the opposite.

But as you said - BioWare dropped the ball wiht the ashes, as there are absolutely no consequences worthy of mention.

Imagine if you had the option to kill Cailan early on (in front of witnesses), and that having no impact on the game whatsoever.

You recall that you are almost completely alone on this mountaintop? And that nobody could possibly know that you corrupted something that is still considered a myth?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...
She(Lothering) could've given me the goddamn key without me threatening her life.

Which begs the question - why should she?
You are a traitor and a kingslayer who has done absolutely nothing to earn her trust.

Seriously, why do peoeel expect anyone to kiss the ground on which the PC walks and act compeltely out of character?

The chantry could help with the Blight, I'll admit. The point is that they don't, ever. I just finished "The Stolen Throne" and have even moe reason to hate the chantry.

Which is beside the point. The point is that they COULD help. It is logical to assume they would.

Again, nothing comes out of it, but that's Biows slip-up and not something the Warden can know.

Hypotheticly, you ran across a gang who kidnapped a dukes son.
By your logic, saving the duke son is a stupid course of action, because the duke doesn't reward you in the end.

As for Redcliffe, there is a time to act on your morals. When your trying to keeping a village full of scared, undertrained citizens alive is not the time. She is a bad person for being unwilling to do everything in her power to help, deceitful or no.

No.
What actualy help would that lie provide? None. If anything the knights might act more carelesly, believing to be protected - and thus more would die, even further thinning the defenses. Really, what makes you think she believes the lie would hlep at all?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Destroying or saving the ashes are equally valid choices, but it you destroy them you shouldn't be surprised that it might tick off a few people.

Valid in what context?

As a roleplaying option? Yes.

As helping you get rid of the Blight? Not really. Quite the opposite.

But as you said - BioWare dropped the ball wiht the ashes, as there are absolutely no consequences worthy of mention.

Imagine if you had the option to kill Cailan early on (in front of witnesses), and that having no impact on the game whatsoever.

You recall that you are almost completely alone on this mountaintop? And that nobody could possibly know that you corrupted something that is still considered a myth?

ALMOST compeltely.
What guarantee you have that someone from your party won't spill the beans? Maybe one night at the tavern one of them drinks too much and tells too much.
Also, Genitivi is there. You have to kill him to keep things quiet - meaning MORE murder.

[Spicen]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

There's something wrong with you if you want to kill a sexy, bi-sexual red-head

Did i ever tell you that i hate sexy, bi-sexual red-heads.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If the protagonist doesn't trust or like the Andrastian Chantry - possibly the Surana Warden, for instance - then they might not want to get involved with the Chantry.

Which is pretty stupid because there's a Blight knocking. Soemthing that can frak up the entire world. You need all the help you can get.

The Warden could imagine that Kolgrim might be able to use his Cultists - and the Dragon Andraste - to aid in the war effort against the darkspawn. In fact, The Warden can bring this up to Kolgrim, suggesting it was a possibility in The Warden's mind when he (or she) made the choice about the ashes.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Why do you think the Warden goes on recruiting the help of everyone he can find - elves, dwarves, warevols, whomever?

Refusing to ask for help from the Chantry because of a petty dislike is a utter faliure to be a Warden.
It's putting ones own biases in front of the interests and survival of the world. It's petty it's short-sighted.

Considering their military are the templars, the events at the Circle Tower would already cement whether the Chantry's military will work with The Warden or not.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Which is pretty stupid because there's a Blight knocking. Soemthing that can frak up the entire world. You need all the help you can get.

The Warden could imagine that Kolgrim might be able to use his Cultists - and the Dragon Andraste - to aid in the war effort against the darkspawn. In fact, The Warden can bring this up to Kolgrim, suggesting it was a possibility in The Warden's mind when he (or she) made the choice about the ashes.

Which is pretty insignificant.
For one, Kolgrim doesn't control the dragon. He pleads, begs and offers it sacrifice to apease it, but it is a beast.

For another a dozen cultists won't make any difference. The goal of the Warden is to UNITE FERELDEN and gather an army to fight the Blight.
And being in the company of cultists who murder people AND spit on the main relegion in the county is not gonna win you any love.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Why do you think the Warden goes on recruiting the help of everyone he can find - elves, dwarves, warevols, whomever?
Refusing to ask for help from the Chantry because of a petty dislike is a utter faliure to be a Warden.
It's putting ones own biases in front of the interests and survival of the world. It's petty it's short-sighted.

Considering their military are the templars, the events at the Circle Tower would already cement whether the Chantry's military will work with The Warden or not.

What?
What are you blathering about?

First of all, no. Finding the ashes is a BIG thing and the Blight is a BIG thing. And I don't anyone even knows what the Warden did in the tower. Even moreso because Gregoir can be easily persuaded to spare the mages.

Secondly, help of the Chantry doesn't entail only an entire army of templars (and basicly mages), but also all the clout and political influence it has among the nobles, and influence it has among the people. Which is a BIG thing given the overall mistrust and the events at Landsmeet.

Mind you, this wouln't be just the endorsment from a reverend mother. It would be from the Divine herself.

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ALMOST compeltely.
What guarantee you have that someone from your party won't spill the beans? Maybe one night at the tavern one of them drinks too much and tells too much.
Also, Genitivi is there. You have to kill him to keep things quiet - meaning MORE murder.

I didn't kill Genetivi. No one ever proved that the ashes were there. Genetivi published his thing, then committed suicide later. No one ever proved anything about the ashes.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Which is something you cannot know in advance.
Whats stoping Genitivi from reaching the ashes and finiding freash dragon blood sprinkled on it? It doesn't take a genius to figure out who did it, as the Warden was the only one else in there.

Just because Bioware ignored perfectly plausible and logical outcomes, doesn't mean your Warden knows they won't happen.

[Cultist]

I'm getting bored, so back into the fray.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Which you could know beforehand. So your entire reasoning is flawed.
He's not the kind of personal a rational human being would trust.

There's not such thing as rational human being. I decided to trust Kolgrim in my playthrough. Everything else does not matter. He turned to be a trustworthy fellow which just added to my sympathy toward him.

Actually no. Reason doesn't cease to exist just because it's a game.
How I would act in real life is dictated by reason, not by gameplay mechanics.
What an example? In real life you'd never charge a group of a dizen heaviyl armed men alone. It's too risky. Suicide.
You can do it in a game because oyu can save/load and you know you can beat them, but from a CHARACTERS perspective, that is a stupid decision.

For a game charater - it's a correct and good decision. So you may try to aplly game real-life reason to a game - but I guess you'll have to wait another 100 years for absolutely correct life simulator. In the meantime, I prefer to play RPG where berserk charge by my Berserker is an effective course of action.

Also, the point isn't to act liek you never would in RL. The point is to act like the world is real and you are in the characters shoes.
If we follow your logic, in real life I would never eat s*** or drink poison. So that would make it perfectly reasonable to do it in teh game?

Really? Because I can easily find a situation where it is reasonable to drink poison and even eat sh**. If I can imagine such situation in real life, what makes it wrokg to have it in the game?
And let's look at my supposed character's perspective. A Blood Mage who hates Chantry and spits on the Maker. And my character' most reasonable act is to use the perfect opportunity to eliminate Chantry agent and defile the relic I don't care about, but that is of great value for my enemies.

Pot calling the kettle black much?
If anyone desplays a cultist-like behavior, it would be you. And Spicen.

It is not me, who acts derogatory towards everyone, who shares different opinion. It is not me, who can't tolerate the existence of various solutions to the quests we have in Dragon Age. I will readly accept all opinions and will discuss them without insulting my opponents. So who is acting more like cultist here?

Modifié par Cultist, 12 septembre 2012 - 09:06 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cultist wrote...

I'm getting bored, so back into the fray.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Which you could know beforehand. So your entire reasoning is flawed.
He's not the kind of personal a rational human being would trust.

There's not such thing as rational human being. I decided to trust Kolgrim in my playthrough. Everything else does not matter. He turned to be a trustworthy fellow which just added to my sympathy toward him.

If you think everyone has to be like you, then yes, I can see how you can believe that.
However, it's is bollocks. Like the underlined.

Actually no. Reason doesn't cease to exist just because it's a game.
How I would act in real life is dictated by reason, not by gameplay mechanics.
What an example? In real life you'd never charge a group of a dizen heaviyl armed men alone. It's too risky. Suicide.
You can do it in a game because oyu can save/load and you know you can beat them, but from a CHARACTERS perspective, that is a stupid decision.

For a game charater - it's a correct and good decision. So you may try to aplly game real-life reason to a game - but I guess you'll have to wait another 100 years for absolutely correct life simulator. In the meantime, I prefer to play RPG where berserk charge by my Berserker is an effective course of action.

You again attempt to justify the validity of decision by metagaming.
Within the context of the game settings and options given, the action one can take can be analyzed and rated as more, or less logical.
People have been doing that kind of roleplaying for years.

Face it - game characters often act in ways they never would if they were living people, as players often do not reason like their characters are real people. They cannot escape from the "game-y" mentality that games often reewad too much.

Any normal human being wouldn't be quick to run into the filth-and-desease infested sewers unprepared, just because he heard rumors of a magical sword lost there. Do you want to wade trough s***? Risk almost certain deseases and afflcitions that are hard to cure? Risk having your equpment rust and stink to high-heavens (untill you have to buy new one).
Would you go attack a high dragon the second you hear rumors of his existence?

Also, the point isn't to act liek you never would in RL. The point is to act like the world is real and you are in the characters shoes.
If we follow your logic, in real life I would never eat s*** or drink poison. So that would make it perfectly reasonable to do it in teh game?

Really? Because I can easily find a situation where it is reasonable to drink poison and even eat sh**. If I can imagine such situation in real life, what makes it wrokg to have it in the game?

Well, show me one such situation in the games. Because in games, there's usually nothing extraordinary.
And you're missing my point because you're fixated on the example insted of the actual point.

And let's look at my supposed character's perspective. A Blood Mage who hates Chantry and spits on the Maker. And my character' most reasonable act is to use the perfect opportunity to eliminate Chantry agent and defile the relic I don't care about, but that is of great value for my enemies.

A Blood Mage who is a faliure as a Warden - as I pointed out, since his action hurt his chances to defeat the Blight.  Which is what I was talking about. The Chatnrys support in gathering an army would be invalubale.

So yes, a hatefull and short-sighted character.

It is not me, who acts derogatory towards everyone, who shares different opinion. It is not me, who can't tolerate the existence of various solutions to the quests we have in Dragon Age. I will readly accept all opinions and will discuss them without insulting my opponents. So who is acting more like cultist here?

You.
Since you obviously like to lie about your opposition..as you are doing now.
Me who can't tolerate the existence of various solutions? LOl... where did you get that? Just because a solution is contrary to the wardens goal and stupid, doesn't mean I want it removed from the game. Find me a quote where I said that. I dare you.
Derogatory? Yes, because judging the actions of your PC is a horrible insult.....<_<

Sheesh...get off the high horse Shirley

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 12 septembre 2012 - 10:49 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

*grabs a microphone* Cultist doesn't seem an honorable member and he wants to justify his in-game decisions with psychopathic excuses!

[Cultist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
If you think everyone has to be like you, then yes, I can see how you can believe that.
However, it's is bollocks. Like the underlined.

Every person have their own definition of "reasonable". Well, unless you apsire to know the One-And-Only-Truly-Reasonable-Behaviour-of-a-Human-Being.

You again attempt to justify the validity of decision by metagaming.
Within the context of the game settings and options given, the action one can take can be analyzed and rated as more, or less logical.
People have been doing that kind of roleplaying for years.

Of course. Kolgrim is an enemy of my enemy, plus, he promises me great power in reward, why shouldn't I accept his deal or mistrust him?

Any normal human being wouldn't be quick to run into the filth-and-desease infested sewers unprepared, just because he heard rumors of a magical sword lost there. Do you want to wade trough s***? Risk almost certain deseases and afflcitions that are hard to cure? Risk having your equpment rust and stink to high-heavens (untill you have to buy new one).
Would you go attack a high dragon the second you hear rumors of his existence?

All you described here is rreverent, because we are talking about the game. And your "normal human being" argument have no meaning in the game. Because computer game characters could do it and it is interesting for players.
In fact you are using method of discussion, described by Karel Capek as "Quousque..." using "every child knows", "every normal human being", "like we all know" and such left and right.

Well, show me one such situation in the games. Because in games, there's usually nothing extraordinary.
And you're missing my point because you're fixated on the example insted of the actual point.

Fallout 3 sacrifice. Mass Effect sacrifice. Dragon Age sacrifice. Left 4 Dead Sacrifice. That was only first what came into my mind.  I suggest you should try other games, than those, that "usually offer nothing extraordinary".

A Blood Mage who is a faliure as a Warden - as I pointed out, since his action hurt his chances to defeat the Blight.  Which is what I was talking about. The Chatnrys support in gathering an army would be invalubale.
So yes, a hatefull and short-sighted character.

Blood Mage was a pretty nice Warden if judged, who slaughtered darkspawn by the droves with Blood Magic. His effectiveness in what Wardens should do - eliminating darkspawn, was very high. His deeds empowered him. And his actions resulted in killing the Archdemon. During my playthrough as a Blood Mage, I bet on those, who opposed the Chantry and won.
Now, let's see - my argument is based on the actual game lore, and yours on assumptions about some Chantry support we never saw. It's kind of practice vs theory.

You.
Since you obviously like to lie about your opposition..as you are doing now.
Me who can't tolerate the existence of various solutions? LOl... where did you get that? Just because a solution is contrary to the wardens goal and stupid, doesn't mean I want it removed from the game. Find me a quote where I said that. I dare you.
Derogatory? Yes, because judging the actions of your PC is a horrible insult.....<_<

Point me at my lies, please.
I never said you want it to be removed, you just can't accept its existence.
And I'm too lazy to point every insult you threw at people. Just use Search in previous pages for "idiot", "stupid", "douchebag", "retard" or just look at your post history.
Decisions are made by players, and calling that decisions like you did insults them as well.

Modifié par Cultist, 12 septembre 2012 - 07:49 .

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Warden could imagine that Kolgrim might be able to use his Cultists - and the Dragon Andraste - to aid in the war effort against the darkspawn. In fact, The Warden can bring this up to Kolgrim, suggesting it was a possibility in The Warden's mind when he (or she) made the choice about the ashes.

Which is pretty insignificant.
For one, Kolgrim doesn't control the dragon. He pleads, begs and offers it sacrifice to apease it, but it is a beast.

For another a dozen cultists won't make any difference. The goal of the Warden is to UNITE FERELDEN and gather an army to fight the Blight.
And being in the company of cultists who murder people AND spit on the main relegion in the county is not gonna win you any love.

Considering the Dalish and dwarves are "heathens," and the mages are villified, I don't see your point.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


Considering their military are the templars, the events at the Circle Tower would already cement whether the Chantry's military will work with The Warden or not.

What?
What are you blathering about?

First of all, no. Finding the ashes is a BIG thing and the Blight is a BIG thing. And I don't anyone even knows what the Warden did in the tower. Even moreso because Gregoir can be easily persuaded to spare the mages.

Secondly, help of the Chantry doesn't entail only an entire army of templars (and basicly mages), but also all the clout and political influence it has among the nobles, and influence it has among the people. Which is a BIG thing given the overall mistrust and the events at Landsmeet.

Mind you, this wouln't be just the endorsment from a reverend mother. It would be from the Divine herself.

My point was that Greagoir sides with The Warden as a result of the events at the Circle Tower, so why focus on the Divine in Orlais?

Modifié par LobselVith8, 13 septembre 2012 - 02:23 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
If you think everyone has to be like you, then yes, I can see how you can believe that.
However, it's is bollocks. Like the underlined.

Every person have their own definition of "reasonable". Well, unless you apsire to know the One-And-Only-Truly-Reasonable-Behaviour-of-a-Human-Being.

Not really.
A reasonable position can be easily defended..because it's logical

You again attempt to justify the validity of decision by metagaming.
Within the context of the game settings and options given, the action one can take can be analyzed and rated as more, or less logical.
People have been doing that kind of roleplaying for years.

Of course. Kolgrim is an enemy of my enemy, plus, he promises me great power in reward, why shouldn't I accept his deal or mistrust him?

Because he kills people for kicks?
Because he's a crazed cultists, and such people aren't known for their rationality?
Because the Darkspawn are the true enemy, not the Chantry?

Any normal human being wouldn't be quick to run into the filth-and-desease infested sewers unprepared, just because he heard rumors of a magical sword lost there. Do you want to wade trough s***? Risk almost certain deseases and afflcitions that are hard to cure? Risk having your equpment rust and stink to high-heavens (untill you have to buy new one).
Would you go attack a high dragon the second you hear rumors of his existence?

All you described here is rreverent, because we are talking about the game. And your "normal human being" argument have no meaning in the game. Because computer game characters could do it and it is interesting for players.
In fact you are using method of discussion, described by Karel Capek as "Quousque..." using "every child knows", "every normal human being", "like we all know" and such left and right.

No, it's not irrelevant. Because we are talking about rolepalying.
IF you play a character you should also think like that character. And assumign that character has a ounce of brains and a sense of self-perservation, then he wouldn't be quick to do stupid things.

Imagine a party in a PnP session visiting the king.
Player 1: I bow
Player 2: I bow
Player 3: I draw my sword and attack the king!

What player 3 did is stupid, irrational and something no sane human being would do. But he did it anyway because "it's a game" and he was bored. Or wanted to troll the other players by causing a TPK.

A Blood Mage who is a faliure as a Warden - as I pointed out, since his action hurt his chances to defeat the Blight.  Which is what I was talking about. The Chatnrys support in gathering an army would be invalubale.
So yes, a hatefull and short-sighted character.

Blood Mage was a pretty nice Warden if judged, who slaughtered darkspawn by the droves with Blood Magic. His effectiveness in what Wardens should do - eliminating darkspawn, was very high. His deeds empowered him. And his actions resulted in killing the Archdemon. During my playthrough as a Blood Mage, I bet on those, who opposed the Chantry and won.
Now, let's see - my argument is based on the actual game lore, and yours on assumptions about some Chantry support we never saw. It's kind of practice vs theory.

No, it's stupidity vs. brains.
The goal of the Warden was to unitle the lands. No matter how good a darkspawn-killingmachien you are, it's is insignificant. There's too many darkspawn.

Your Warden didn't suceed because he defiled the ashes - he suceeded DESPITE it. Which is a MASSIVE difference.
Just becasue I kill off half of my army before the battle  and still suceed to win the following battle, doesnt' make my decision to kill off half of my forces a smart move or a move that caused victory.

And yes, my arguments are based on the lore. The Lore that sez how theChantry operates and how important ashes are. Bioware did nothing with the ashes, which is a huge oversight, but understandable. After all, it would be too easy to win if you got the Divine at your side.

Point me at my lies, please.
I never said you want it to be removed, you just can't accept its existence.

Eh? If I don't want it removed that I'm accepting it's existence.
Options are always good. After all, there are people who want to rolepaly evil, insane or characters where INT is a dump stat.

What I AM saying is that defilign the ashes is a move that hurts what should be the Wardens main goal - stopping the blight.

And I'm too lazy to point every insult you threw at people. Just use Search in previous pages for "idiot", "stupid", "douchebag", "retard" or just look at your post history.

Decisions are made by players, and calling that decisions like you did insults them as well.

The "stupid decision" and "idiot" refer to characters.
If a player feels insulted because of that it's their problem. Just as you are free to roleplay an evil character, youre also free to roleplay a stupid one. I'm not stopign you from doing either, but I wont' shy away from pointing it out either.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 13 septembre 2012 - 07:22 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
For another a dozen cultists won't make any difference. The goal of the Warden is to UNITE FERELDEN and gather an army to fight the Blight.
And being in the company of cultists who murder people AND spit on the main relegion in the county is not gonna win you any love.

Considering the Dalish and dwarves are "heathens," and the mages are villified, I don't see your point.

You never do.
If you want to unite Ferelden you have to win people over.
Elves are looked down on, but are considered usefull. Dwarves are present and repsected enough.
Kolgrim and his cultists are murderes and nutjobs who make it their buisness to proclem to everyone the Divine is fake. That's not gonna go well.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Mind you, this wouln't be just the endorsment from a reverend mother. It would be from the Divine herself.

My point was that Greagoir sides with The Warden as a result of the events at the Circle Tower, so why focus on the Divine in Orlais?

Because it's the DIVINE.
It's like an endorsment from the Pope during the middle ages. It carries a MASSIVE amount of clout.

Unlike Gregoir, the Divines word is almost law. It will get you more than just Gregoirs troops. IF you are made a saint of the Chantry, every believer everywhere will support you unconditionaly.

Loghain wouldn't dare touch you, lest he finds the entire world against him.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 13 septembre 2012 - 07:23 .

[Cultist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Not really.
A reasonable position can be easily defended..because it's logical

Good to know, because killing Leliana and desecration of the Ashes is logical by Blood Mage character standarts.

Because he kills people for kicks?
Because he's a crazed cultists, and such people aren't known for their rationality?
Because the Darkspawn are the true enemy, not the Chantry?

He kills chantry people or people Blood Mage or opportunist would not care about.
Crazed cultists promise me power as a reward, Chantry promise nothing.
And if I can harm Chantry a the same time obtaining power to deal with the Darkspawn - all the better.

No, it's not irrelevant. Because we are talking about rolepalying.
IF you play a character you should also think like that character. And assumign that character has a ounce of brains and a sense of self-perservation, then he wouldn't be quick to do stupid things.

Imagine a party in a PnP session visiting the king.
Player 1: I bow
Player 2: I bow
Player 3: I draw my sword and attack the king!

What player 3 did is stupid, irrational and something no sane human being would do. But he did it anyway because "it's a game" and he was bored. Or wanted to troll the other players by causing a TPK.

So, someone is roleplaying a Berserker.
And Player 3 could kill a king because he thinks that should be correct. In Skyrim you have a quest to kill an Empeor, for example, Witcher 2: Assassin of Kings - place yourself at Leto's position and here we go - Player 3's decision to kill the king is logical.

No, it's stupidity vs. brains.
The goal of the Warden was to unitle the lands. No matter how good a darkspawn-killingmachien you are, it's is insignificant. There's too many darkspawn.
Your Warden didn't suceed because he defiled the ashes - he suceeded DESPITE it. Which is a MASSIVE difference.

I got more powerful => more able to unite the land => PROFIT!!!

Just becasue I kill off half of my army before the battle  and still suceed to win the following battle, doesnt' make my decision to kill off half of my forces a smart move or a move that caused victory.

I sacrifice half my army for blood in some Blood Magic ritual and then i won against all odds. Killing half your army, then is reasonable as it is preferrable to losing all your army.

And yes, my arguments are based on the lore. The Lore that sez how theChantry operates and how important ashes are. Bioware did nothing with the ashes, which is a huge oversight, but understandable. After all, it would be too easy to win if you got the Divine at your side.

You argments are based on Chantry may, Chantry could. Asssumptions and theories. It's like a theory that after saving Mage Circle, all mages will kill 99% of darkspawn and you fought only minor fraction in Denerim.

Eh? If I don't want it removed that I'm accepting it's existence.
Options are always good. After all, there are people who want to rolepaly evil, insane or characters where INT is a dump stat.

Not removing it does not mean accepting it. Otherwise you won't be acting so agressive when talking about simple different playthrough option.

What I AM saying is that defilign the ashes is a move that hurts what should be the Wardens main goal - stopping the blight.

As I said before, saving the Ashes helps you not. Defiling the Ashes makes you more powerful and closer to your goal - stopping the Blight.