766 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

Cultist wrote...

Of course. Kolgrim is an enemy of my enemy, plus, he promises me great power in reward, why shouldn't I accept his deal or mistrust him?

I don't really want to get back into this thread, but I will say that you have been slaughtering his followers for the past hour or so.  So the real question is, why should Kolgrim not want you dead?

[Sylvianus]

To begin with, I love Leliana, so I give my opinion regardless of that debate.

Kolgrim is more insane than a cautious man with a cold ruthless logic. If you choose sentences that go in his direction, he is much more enthusiastic.

If you say he's wrong or you don't believe him, he becomes angry. Worse, if you dare saying that Andraste is dead and he is mad, then he decides to attack you immediately. To be honest I didn't want to fight with him, but he didn't let me that choice after I made that mistake.

To sum up, I think it is quite possible that Kolgrim could decide not to attack the warden, as long as you agreed with his opinion or if you pretend to do so. You simply need to prove that you're not a heretic and especially avoid blaspheming the true faith..

Modifié par Sylvianus, 13 septembre 2012 - 08:51 .

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

For another a dozen cultists won't make any difference. The goal of the Warden is to UNITE FERELDEN and gather an army to fight the Blight.
And being in the company of cultists who murder people AND spit on the main relegion in the county is not gonna win you any love.

Considering the Dalish and dwarves are "heathens," and the mages are vilified, I don't see your point.

You never do.
If you want to unite Ferelden you have to win people over.
Elves are looked down on, but are considered usefull. Dwarves are present and repsected enough.
Kolgrim and his cultists are murderes and nutjobs who make it their buisness to proclem to everyone the Divine is fake. That's not gonna go well.

Mages are seen as "cursed" and people attack them irrationally, which is why Mother Hannah assures the Amell Warden that a mob won't attack him. The idea that you can't have a vilified group among the armies doesn't make sense when the mages are marching for The Warden, and they have been vilified for nearly a millennia.

Also, the Dalish don't believe in the Maker, and worship the Creators.

Furthermore, the members of the Cult of Andraste are clandestine about their views at first, so the idea that the Cultists are incapable of keeping their views a secret doesn't actually gel with what we encounter in the story.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mind you, this wouln't be just the endorsment from a reverend mother. It would be from the Divine herself.

My point was that Greagoir sides with The Warden as a result of the events at the Circle Tower, so why focus on the Divine in Orlais?

Because it's the DIVINE.
It's like an endorsment from the Pope during the middle ages. It carries a MASSIVE amount of clout.

Unlike Gregoir, the Divines word is almost law. It will get you more than just Gregoirs troops. IF you are made a saint of the Chantry, every believer everywhere will support you unconditionaly.

Loghain wouldn't dare touch you, lest he finds the entire world against him.

Considering what Loghain and Maric contemplated to do about the Chantry in "The Stolen Throne," I respectfully disagree.

[Spicen]

Sylvianus wrote...

To begin with, I love Leliana, so I give my opinion regardless of that debate.

Kolgrim is more insane than a cautious man with a cold ruthless logic. If you choose sentences that go in his direction, he is much more enthusiastic.

If you say he's wrong or you don't believe him, he becomes angry. Worse, if you dare saying that Andraste is dead and he is mad, then he decides to attack you immediately. To be honest I didn't want to fight with him, but he didn't let me that choice after I made that mistake.

To sum up, I think it is quite possible that Kolgrim could decide not to attack the warden, as long as you agreed with his opinion or if you pretend to do so. You simply need to prove that you're not a heretic and especially avoid blaspheming the true faith..

And your point is....................

[Shadow Fox]

The reason mages are seen as cursed has more to do with Tevinter's atrocities then anything else and considering how destructively powerful they are and how easily a mage can become an abomination I'd say the fear of them is justified even if the hate isn't.

And I'm suprised this hasn't been locked considering it's a troll thread that's sole purpose is to bash a character and antagonize her fans.

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 14 septembre 2012 - 05:59 .

[Shadow Fox]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Even in-game, an inteligent warden can see that the chantry refuses to help. Most any revered mother turns you away once she hears you are a warden. The Kolgrim outright promises the cultist's support, although they fail to deliver afterwards.

WRONG.
A idiot Warden you mean.

What "many revered mothers" do you refer to? What have you done up untill then that warrants their help?

Lothering? The Reverend mother there had her hands full with all the refugees.
There's no much she could do anyway given the circumstances - even less as she is only a Reverend Mother of Lothering.

Now, getting the ashes is something entirely different. It's a big thing. A huge event for the Chantry. Bound to get the Divines attention.

Think about the Catholic Church during the middle ages. A regular village priest has little clout outside the village. The Pope? He was a major mover in the world.

Your logic is just baffling.
By your logic we should have ignored Redcliffe....and help from any lords or nobles, because up untill that point none has done anything to help you.

Watch the insults.
I asked for assistance of any kind, they say that since Loghain's got a price on my head, they can't associate with me. I know enough of the history of the catholic church to know that, if it's the same thing, they are as corrupt and material as any nobleman.
I never said to turn away help, I never said to not help anyone. I simply said that they refused to associate with me on the grounds of being a warden, a goddamn hero. That is enough to earn my ire. Even that templar in Lothering did more for me than any of the official chantry folks.
EDIT: I said "most any" Lothering she won't even talk to you, in Redcliffe you have to coerce her into telling a little white lie.

He's not insulting you he's insulting a hypothectical Warden.

The Wardens are hardly "goddamn heroes" as you put it And Loghain a local hero,the queen's father and known friend of the king's father says your order betrayed and killed their king who do you think they'll believe?

You haven't met most devout religous folk have you? Most don't take  kindly to taking their god's name in vain considering it blasphemy.

[Cultist]

In fact no, the nature of this thread is that Leliana's most durely won't like it, but it all started with asking for one option for those, who just don't like her or want to fix that retcon issue.
Our little floodfest about how evil-reasonable-debased-logical people who want Leliana dead is irrevelent and just for fun.

[Spicen]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...


And I'm suprised this hasn't been locked considering it's a troll thread that's sole purpose is to bash a character and antagonize her fans.

Excuse me who the hell are you to judge which thread should be locked and which shudn't. You are the one who is trolling. And the moderators arent as biased as you are that they will delete an argumentative thread which has shown clearly that 80% of the people posting here that they hate Leliana.
If you want to defend her, you are most welcomed but trolling around here isnt going to help you.

Modifié par Spicen, 14 septembre 2012 - 06:58 .

[Shadow Fox]

Spicen wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...


And I'm suprised this hasn't been locked considering it's a troll thread that's sole purpose is to bash a character and antagonize her fans.

Excuse me who the F are you to judge which thread should be locked and which shudn't. You are the one who is trolling. And the moderators arent as biased as you are that they will delete an argumentative thread which has shown clearly that 80% og the people posting here that they hate Leliana.
If you want to defend her, you are most welcomed but trolling around here isnt going to help you. PERIOD.

And you just proved my point well done.

[Spicen]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Even in-game, an inteligent warden can see that the chantry refuses to help. Most any revered mother turns you away once she hears you are a warden. The Kolgrim outright promises the cultist's support, although they fail to deliver afterwards.

WRONG.
A idiot Warden you mean.

What "many revered mothers" do you refer to? What have you done up untill then that warrants their help?

Lothering? The Reverend mother there had her hands full with all the refugees.
There's no much she could do anyway given the circumstances - even less as she is only a Reverend Mother of Lothering.

Now, getting the ashes is something entirely different. It's a big thing. A huge event for the Chantry. Bound to get the Divines attention.

Think about the Catholic Church during the middle ages. A regular village priest has little clout outside the village. The Pope? He was a major mover in the world.

Your logic is just baffling.
By your logic we should have ignored Redcliffe....and help from any lords or nobles, because up untill that point none has done anything to help you.

Watch the insults.
I asked for assistance of any kind, they say that since Loghain's got a price on my head, they can't associate with me. I know enough of the history of the catholic church to know that, if it's the same thing, they are as corrupt and material as any nobleman.
I never said to turn away help, I never said to not help anyone. I simply said that they refused to associate with me on the grounds of being a warden, a goddamn hero. That is enough to earn my ire. Even that templar in Lothering did more for me than any of the official chantry folks.
EDIT: I said "most any" Lothering she won't even talk to you, in Redcliffe you have to coerce her into telling a little white lie.

He's not insulting you he's insulting a hypothectical Warden.

You haven't met most devout religous folk have you? Most don't take  kindly to taking their god's name in vain considering it blasphemy.

Thats rich coming from a person of the same country which started making films insulting holy men.

[Cultist]

Spicen, I think you should stop inlusting and derogatory attitude. because THAT is surely will see the thread locked, not to say it's immature as well.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Mages are seen as "cursed" and people attack them irrationally, which is why Mother Hannah assures the Amell Warden that a mob won't attack him. The idea that you can't have a vilified group among the armies doesn't make sense when the mages are marching for The Warden, and they have been vilified for nearly a millennia.

Also, the Dalish don't believe in the Maker, and worship the Creators.

Furthermore, the members of the Cult of Andraste are clandestine about their views at first, so the idea that the Cultists are incapable of keeping their views a secret doesn't actually gel with what we encounter in the story.

1) People can tolerate mages - especially if they are part of the war effort. We've seen that already
2) Mages aren't actively trying to bring down the Divine. They aren't cultists. It's a big difference (completely lost on you)
3) No one cares about the Dalish really
4) The cultists killed and sacrificed anyone who came into their village. They arne't exactly usbtle about their convictions..at all.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Because it's the DIVINE.
It's like an endorsment from the Pope during the middle ages. It carries a MASSIVE amount of clout.

Unlike Gregoir, the Divines word is almost law. It will get you more than just Gregoirs troops. IF you are made a saint of the Chantry, every believer everywhere will support you unconditionaly.

Loghain wouldn't dare touch you, lest he finds the entire world against him.

Considering what Loghain and Maric contemplated to do about the Chantry in "The Stolen Throne," I respectfully disagree.

Contemplated. But they knew better.
I can "contemplate" killing the president, but it amounts to nothing..because it's a stupid move.

Ferelden is a small country. It can barely afford to fight a weakened Orlais, let alone other countries.
You don't pi** off the Divine. That's just asking for an Exhalted March.


Again, the Divine gives you more clout and influence than ANYONE else in theDas.
If you continue to insist that that isn't important when gathering support to fightthe Blight, then we have nothing to discuss.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Cultist wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Not really.
A reasonable position can be easily defended..because it's logical[/quote]
Good to know, because killing Leliana and desecration of the Ashes is logical by Blood Mage character standarts.
[/quote]

Yes...for a Blood Mage that is a complete faliure as a Warden because he cannot think


[quote][quote]
Because he kills people for kicks?
Because he's a crazed cultists, and such people aren't known for their rationality?
Because the Darkspawn are the true enemy, not the Chantry?[/quote]

He kills chantry people or people Blood Mage or opportunist would not care about.
Crazed cultists promise me power as a reward, Chantry promise nothing.
And if I can harm Chantry a the same time obtaining power to deal with the Darkspawn - all the better.[/quote]

You just keep provining me right with every post.

You take the word of a CRAZED (your own acknowledgment) cultist over a VERY real possiblity of a greater reward from the Chantry.

Again - a blinded character that doesn't take his duties as a Warden seriously. He is more concerned with hurting the Chantry then stoppingthe Blight. That makes him a faliure as a Warden.



[quote][quote]
No, it's not irrelevant. Because we are talking about rolepalying.
IF you play a character you should also think like that character. And assumign that character has a ounce of brains and a sense of self-perservation, then he wouldn't be quick to do stupid things.

Imagine a party in a PnP session visiting the king.
Player 1: I bow
Player 2: I bow
Player 3: I draw my sword and attack the king!

What player 3 did is stupid, irrational and something no sane human being would do. But he did it anyway because "it's a game" and he was bored. Or wanted to troll the other players by causing a TPK.[/quote]

So, someone is roleplaying a Berserker.
And Player 3 could kill a king because he thinks that should be correct. In Skyrim you have a quest to kill an Empeor, for example, Witcher 2: Assassin of Kings - place yourself at Leto's position and here we go - Player 3's decision to kill the king is logical.[/quote]

Berserkers are triggered by sometihng..they dont' jstu go berserk willy-nilly.
And attacking the king is suicidal. Not only will the attacker die, but also his companions.

no, attacking the king in his throne room sorounded by his gard, wihout any actual plot reasons...... stupid.

But I see that no matter what example I use you'll just harp on the details endlessly. That is your default strategy to keep avoiding the point I make.


[quote][quote]
No, it's stupidity vs. brains.
The goal of the Warden was to unitle the lands. No matter how good a darkspawn-killingmachien you are, it's is insignificant. There's too many darkspawn.
Your Warden didn't suceed because he defiled the ashes - he suceeded DESPITE it. Which is a MASSIVE difference.[/quote]

I got more powerful => more able to unite the land => PROFIT!!![/quote]

Nope.
Being a stronger warrior doesn't help you as much as having support from a undeniable authority figure.



[quote]
[quote]Just becasue I kill off half of my army before the battle  and still suceed to win the following battle, doesnt' make my decision to kill off half of my forces a smart move or a move that caused victory.[/quote]
I sacrifice half my army for blood in some Blood Magic ritual and then i won against all odds. Killing half your army, then is reasonable as it is preferrable to losing all your army. [/quote]

Except the sacrifice of half of the army was pointless and didn't net you anything really.
Stop trying to turn my examples around by adding your own cavetats.


[quote]
[quote]And yes, my arguments are based on the lore. The Lore that sez how theChantry operates and how important ashes are. Bioware did nothing with the ashes, which is a huge oversight, but understandable. After all, it would be too easy to win if you got the Divine at your side.[/quote]
You argments are based on Chantry may, Chantry could. Asssumptions and theories. It's like a theory that after saving Mage Circle, all mages will kill 99% of darkspawn and you fought only minor fraction in Denerim.[/quote]

Bollocks. Stop trying to reduce everything to absurdity in a pathetic atempt to defend your crumbling position.
The difference between the two examples is so big and obvious, I don't even have to say anything.
Blights destroy entire nations and oyu think a dozen manges will destroy the entire blight? Seriously?

You're grasping for straws so desperately it's funny.


[quote]
Not removing it does not mean accepting it. Otherwise you won't be acting so agressive when talking about simple different playthrough option. [/quote]

Oh? So  now you can read my mind?
I know very well what I am accepting and how.
Don't assume to lecture me about things you know nothing about.

I can easly say that you cannot accept Leliala living. Otherwise you would argue so agressively. If oyu say otherwise, you're merely lying.
See? Evenry one can use thsis BS strategy. But it remains a BS strategy. So don't use it.



[quote]
[quote]What I AM saying is that defilign the ashes is a move that hurts what should be the Wardens main goal - stopping the blight.[/quote]
As I said before, saving the Ashes helps you not. Defiling the Ashes makes you more powerful and closer to your goal - stopping the Blight.
[/quote]

No. Illogical conclusion. Illogical outcome.
Sorry, but that doens't justify it.

For decison making the MOST PROBABLE outcomes at the time of decision making are what matters and make the decision sound or not. Hindsight is irrelevant. And game limitations are too.


At the time of decision making the Warden still has no clout. He doesn't know if Eamon will survive. He's still considered a traitor. And yet he has to unite the land and gather support.

Being a buddy with crazed cultists who work against 99% of the populace won't help you. Swining a sword a bit harder won't help you much either. Spiting on the main religion in the country wont help you either.

Chantry support would help you A LOT. Being a living legend for 90% of the populace would help. Being endorsed by hte Divine would help.

That is logical, but it doesn't end up happening. Becasue it's a game and there's limited resources and there has to be a challenge.
In the same vein, you can't really fail the game. No matter what choice you take, you'll never loose. You can ****** off EVERYONE and you can still fight your way to victory. Kill the nobles during parlay, I'm sure the poepel won't care. I'm sure the army will you jsut JUMP to follow a double traitor.
Which is stupid as hell, but the player can't fail.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 14 septembre 2012 - 07:48 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Blood magic...



Anyone wants to justify it?

Modifié par Imperial Sentinel Arian, 14 septembre 2012 - 08:07 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Let's not start THAT discussion again Arian....there's plenty of threads for that already.


EDIT:
That said, I'm amazed how people are deliberately blind to some stuff.

All this refusal to accept that Chantry help should be worth it's weight in gold.

It's like claiming that that crazed drug addict that promised me a rocket launcher if I rob a pharmacy for him is more helpfull to my goal of getting into high politics than support from the president.

[ObserverStatus]

Imperial Sentinel Arian wrote...

Blood magic...



Anyone wants to justify it?

It cannot be justified, why do you think the Maker sends abominations to punish its users?

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

The Cycle of Mages has been cooperating with Templars before and after this event despite that horrible things happened in the tower (Or canonically this cooperation happened).
But blood magic has no purpose except satisfying anarchic tendencies and insanity.

[ObserverStatus]

Imperial Sentinel Arian wrote...

The Cycle of Mages has been cooperating with Templars before and after this event despite that horrible things happened in the tower (Or canonically this cooperation happened).
But blood magic has no purpose except satisfying anarchic tendencies and insanity.

Blood Magic happens, because the Templar had allowed the mages far too much freedom.  If they had all be tranquilized as the Maker intended, this never would have happened.

[Inquisitor Recon]

bobobo878 wrote...
Blood Magic happens, because the Templar had allowed the mages far too much freedom.  If they had all be tranquilized as the Maker intended, this never would have happened.

The tranquil offer such limited benefit however. Surely the Maker intended some mages to be used as weapons under the watchful eye of Templar badasses.

[ObserverStatus]

ReconTeam wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...
Blood Magic happens, because the Templar had allowed the mages far too much freedom.  If they had all be tranquilized as the Maker intended, this never would have happened.

The tranquil offer such limited benefit however. Surely the Maker intended some mages to be used as weapons under the watchful eye of Templar badasses.

Nope, they are far more useful for creating enchanted goods for decent, non-magic folks.  The maker intended for Mages to serve man, not rule over him, and enchanting is the one service they can provide better than the mundane.

[Inquisitor Recon]

bobobo878 wrote...
Nope, they are far more useful for creating enchanted goods for decent, non-magic folks.  The maker intended for Mages to serve man, not rule over him, and enchanting is the one service they can provide better than the mundane.

But do they not serve if used as a weapon against vile heretics like those of the Tevinter Imperium? They could be used in a manner much similar to warhounds. Perhaps they could be kept in a state on the edge of madness, then released from their cages to wildly attack the enemies ranks, damaging and demoralizing them until slain.

[Spicen]

Whoa there people this is not a mage-templar war thread!!

[Spicen]

Couldn't help myself i have to get into this discussion.

@bobowhatever- So blood magic cannot be justified because of abominations- your wrong, a powerful mage like anders, flemeth and the Teviter magisters can control demons, so yes blood magic can be justified if its user is a master of magic.

[Lotion Soronarr]

OH MY GAWD...

NOT THIS DISCUSSION AGAIN.

There is a 100 mage-tempar threads.Go take that discission there.

EDIT: Anders can control demons? Since when? (answer in the other thread if you feel you must)

[Costin_Razvan]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EDIT: Anders can control demons? Since when? (answer in the other thread if you feel you must)

Legacy.