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[Kaiser Arian XVII]

OK fellows, we get back to the cruelty and intentions of killing Leliana.

One may have a reason not to spare Zevran. He was going to kill you for a contract after all.
But Why killing Leliana?! Just because you don't like her belief and comments, it doesn't justify killing her. This is egoism and savagery combined.

I use Wynne and Morrigan sometimes, despite I don't like all their beliefs and conversations. I don't execute them.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EDIT: Anders can control demons? Since when? (answer in the other thread if you feel you must)

Legacy.

Wow...if that is true than that is..bad. Really bad.
Still...Anders isn't a blood mage, so  Ifail to see the connection.

[ObserverStatus]

Spicen wrote...
Couldn't help myself i have to get into this discussion.
@bobowhatever- So blood magic cannot be justified because of abominations- your wrong, a powerful mage like anders, flemeth and the Teviter magisters can control demons, so yes blood magic can be justified if its user is a master of magic.

Funny you should mention Anders.  You may think he's in control of demons, but as an abomination, the Maker is in control of him.  He may claim to hate the templar, but by blowing up the Chantry in Kirkwall, he did the maker's will. By executing the blasphemous appeaser Grand Cleric Elthina, he helped the Templar see that the Maker would no longer tolerate their lazy approach to Mage control.

[Spicen]

bobobo878 wrote...

Spicen wrote...
Couldn't help myself i have to get into this discussion.
@bobowhatever- So blood magic cannot be justified because of abominations- your wrong, a powerful mage like anders, flemeth and the Teviter magisters can control demons, so yes blood magic can be justified if its user is a master of magic.

Funny you should mention Anders.  You may think he's in control of demons, but as an abomination, the Maker is in control of him.  He may claim to hate the templar, but by blowing up the Chantry in Kirkwall, he did the maker's will. By executing the blasphemous appeaser Grand Cleric Elthina, he helped the Templar see that the Maker would no longer tolerate their lazy approach to Mage control.

Okay i laughed at this. Pretty funny.

[Spicen]

bobobo878 wrote...

Spicen wrote...
Couldn't help myself i have to get into this discussion.
@bobowhatever- So blood magic cannot be justified because of abominations- your wrong, a powerful mage like anders, flemeth and the Teviter magisters can control demons, so yes blood magic can be justified if its user is a master of magic.

Funny you should mention Anders.  You may think he's in control of demons, but as an abomination, the Maker is in control of him.  He may claim to hate the templar, but by blowing up the Chantry in Kirkwall, he did the maker's will. By executing the blasphemous appeaser Grand Cleric Elthina, he helped the Templar see that the Maker would no longer tolerate their lazy approach to Mage control.

Double Post.

Modifié par Spicen, 14 septembre 2012 - 03:50 .

[Spicen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EDIT: Anders can control demons? Since when? (answer in the other thread if you feel you must)

Legacy.

Wow...if that is true than that is..bad. Really bad.
Still...Anders isn't a blood mage, so  Ifail to see the connection.

Well Anders inherited a mostly harmless spirit namely, Justice, that warped into a demon of Vengeance. Pretty simple and again it proves that it doesnt take blood magic to control a demon.

[Spicen]

Imperial Sentinel Arian wrote...

OK fellows, we get back to the cruelty and intentions of killing Leliana.

One may have a reason not to spare Zevran. He was going to kill you for a contract after all.
But Why killing Leliana?! Just because you don't like her belief and comments, it doesn't justify killing her. This is egoism and savagery combined.

I use Wynne and Morrigan sometimes, despite I don't like all their beliefs and conversations. I don't execute them.

It depends on person to person. I will compose a list of the reasons to kill her tomorrow, i feel too lazy today, sorry.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Mages are seen as "cursed" and people attack them irrationally, which is why Mother Hannah assures the Amell Warden that a mob won't attack him. The idea that you can't have a vilified group among the armies doesn't make sense when the mages are marching for The Warden, and they have been vilified for nearly a millennia.

Also, the Dalish don't believe in the Maker, and worship the Creators.

Furthermore, the members of the Cult of Andraste are clandestine about their views at first, so the idea that the Cultists are incapable of keeping their views a secret doesn't actually gel with what we encounter in the story.

1) People can tolerate mages - especially if they are part of the war effort. We've seen that already
2) Mages aren't actively trying to bring down the Divine. They aren't cultists. It's a big difference (completely lost on you)
3) No one cares about the Dalish really
4) The cultists killed and sacrificed anyone who came into their village. They arne't exactly usbtle about their convictions..at all.

I disagree, respectfully:

1) Mother Hannah's dialogue with the Amell Warden suggests otherwise
2) The Cultists have different views than mainstream Andrastians, and aren't actively trying to depose the Divine
3) People care enough about the Dalish for Andrastians and templars to threaten them and torture them
4) The Cultists only attempt to kill The Warden and his moiety crew if he uncovers their secrets

Again, none of these arguments change the fact that The Warden can consider the possibility that Kolgrim and his people could be an asset to the war effort. Whether you agree with it or not, it's a sincere possibility when The Warden can ask Kolgrim for his aid against the Blight. You and I can go back and forth on the validity of this course of action, but it's still a possibility for The Warden to consider.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering what Loghain and Maric contemplated to do about the Chantry in "The Stolen Throne," I respectfully disagree.

Contemplated. But they knew better.
I can "contemplate" killing the president, but it amounts to nothing..because it's a stupid move.

Ferelden is a small country. It can barely afford to fight a weakened Orlais, let alone other countries.
You don't pi** off the Divine. That's just asking for an Exhalted March.


Again, the Divine gives you more clout and influence than ANYONE else in theDas.
If you continue to insist that that isn't important when gathering support to fightthe Blight, then we have nothing to discuss.

The Divine's support doesn't mean anything during the events of the Fifth Blight, when the Divine is in Orlais and Ferelden is actively trying to deal with the Archdemon on its own.

[LobselVith8]

Imperial Sentinel Arian wrote...

Blood magic...



Anyone wants to justify it?

So in a world where blood magic is used by some Grey Wardens to defeat darkspawn, where some mages use blood magic to survive against templars who hunt them down because templars can nullify ordinary magic, and where the phylacteries and the Joining are blood magic, you're vilifying blood magic because Uldred became an abomination due to demonology? In an incident where he summoned too many demons, and was unable to control them?

Imperial Sentinel Arian wrote...

The Cycle of Mages has been cooperating with Templars before and after this event despite that horrible things happened in the tower (Or canonically this cooperation happened).
But blood magic has no purpose except satisfying anarchic tendencies and insanity.

The Wardens who use blood magic to protect people from the darkspawn invalidate this line of thought. So does the existance of Merrill.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Spicen wrote...
Well Anders inherited a mostly harmless spirit namely, Justice, that warped into a demon of Vengeance. Pretty simple and again it proves that it doesnt take blood magic to control a demon.

Wait..are you implying Anders controls Justive/Vengance?

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
1) Mother Hannah's dialogue with the Amell Warden suggests otherwise
2) The Cultists have different views than mainstream Andrastians, and aren't actively trying to depose the Divine
3) People care enough about the Dalish for Andrastians and templars to threaten them and torture them
4) The Cultists only attempt to kill The Warden and his moiety crew if he uncovers their secrets

1) No it doesn't. Mother Hannah does not everyone make. Mages are often used in war efforts and no one complains.
2) To the cultists the mainstream are heretics. And tehyve killed everyone who isnt' them. They are the opposite of subtle. Fanatics have a tendacy to not be subtle.
3) Not really.
4) The Cultists killed everyone visiting their city. They are also bat**** crazy.

Again, none of these arguments change the fact that The Warden can consider the possibility that Kolgrim and his people could be an asset to the war effort. Whether you agree with it or not, it's a sincere possibility when The Warden can ask Kolgrim for his aid against the Blight. You and I can go back and forth on the validity of this course of action, but it's still a possibility for The Warden to consider.

It is a possibility /assuming he doesn't cause an uproar), but Kolgrims usefulness pales in comparison to the Chatnry/Ashes.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Ferelden is a small country. It can barely afford to fight a weakened Orlais, let alone other countries.
You don't pi** off the Divine. That's just asking for an Exhalted March.


Again, the Divine gives you more clout and influence than ANYONE else in theDas.
If you continue to insist that that isn't important when gathering support to fightthe Blight, then we have nothing to discuss.

The Divine's support doesn't mean anything during the events of the Fifth Blight, when the Divine is in Orlais and Ferelden is actively trying to deal with the Archdemon on its own.

* headdesk*

You just don't get it, do you? What part of "99% of Ferelden is Andrastian" do you fail to realize? That includes nobles.
The Divines support means EVERYTHING.

If the Divine sez "this is my direct agent and chosen champion of Andraste herself" no one would friggin dare to oppose you.
Not only would that go agaisnt their faith AND the orders from the highest earthly authority, but would also mean angering the Chantry. Which is a BAD move. One that Loghain can't possibly afford.

And at this point the Warden has little to show. Eamon is still out, he doesn't have support from Fereldens nobles or populace. The dwarves and elves a drop in the bucket.

[ImperatorMortis]

It was annoying that she came back to life even though she died by one of my characters.

But man some of you guys are a bit too eager to try, and kill a character.

Its creepy.

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 14 septembre 2012 - 11:31 .

[Spicen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Spicen wrote...
Well Anders inherited a mostly harmless spirit namely, Justice, that warped into a demon of Vengeance. Pretty simple and again it proves that it doesnt take blood magic to control a demon.

Wait..are you implying Anders controls Justive/Vengance?

For the first 7 years-yes.

[Spicen]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

It was annoying that she came back to life even though she died by one of my characters.

But man some of you guys are a bit too eager to try, and kill a character.

Its creepy.

Relax man, first it was only about getting an option to kill her. But due to good support for killing her, we upped the tempo and so our repies were a little cruel.

[Shadow Fox]

Spicen wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

It was annoying that she came back to life even though she died by one of my characters.

But man some of you guys are a bit too eager to try, and kill a character.

Its creepy.

Relax man, first it was only about getting an option to kill her. But due to good support for killing her, we upped the tempo and so our repies were a little cruel.

You can already kill her in Origins...

[Spicen]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Spicen wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

It was annoying that she came back to life even though she died by one of my characters.

But man some of you guys are a bit too eager to try, and kill a character.

Its creepy.

Relax man, first it was only about getting an option to kill her. But due to good support for killing her, we upped the tempo and so our repies were a little cruel.

You can already kill her in Origins...

And she gets retconned- the main reason to starting this thread.

[Spicen]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
1) Mother Hannah's dialogue with the Amell Warden suggests otherwise
2) The Cultists have different views than mainstream Andrastians, and aren't actively trying to depose the Divine
3) People care enough about the Dalish for Andrastians and templars to threaten them and torture them
4) The Cultists only attempt to kill The Warden and his moiety crew if he uncovers their secrets[/quote]

1) No it doesn't. Mother Hannah does not everyone make. Mages are often used in war efforts and no one complains.
2) To the cultists the mainstream are heretics. And tehyve killed everyone who isnt' them. They are the opposite of subtle. Fanatics have a tendacy to not be subtle.
3) Not really.
4) The Cultists killed everyone visiting their city. They are also bat**** crazy.


[quote]
Again, none of these arguments change the fact that The Warden can consider the possibility that Kolgrim and his people could be an asset to the war effort. Whether you agree with it or not, it's a sincere possibility when The Warden can ask Kolgrim for his aid against the Blight. You and I can go back and forth on the validity of this course of action, but it's still a possibility for The Warden to consider.[/quote]

It is a possibility /assuming he doesn't cause an uproar), but Kolgrims usefulness pales in comparison to the Chatnry/Ashes.



[/quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Divine's support doesn't mean anything during the events of the Fifth Blight, when the Divine is in Orlais and Ferelden is actively trying to deal with the Archdemon on its own.[/quote]

* headdesk*

You just don't get it, do you? What part of "99% of Ferelden is Andrastian" do you fail to realize? That includes nobles.
The Divines support means EVERYTHING.

If the Divine sez "this is my direct agent and chosen champion of Andraste herself" no one would friggin dare to oppose you.
Not only would that go agaisnt their faith AND the orders from the highest earthly authority, but would also mean angering the Chantry. Which is a BAD move. One that Loghain can't possibly afford.

And at this point the Warden has little to show. Eamon is still out, he doesn't have support from Fereldens nobles or populace. The dwarves and elves a drop in the bucket.
[/quote]








Well if u dont know about it, let me give u a news- the chantry is broken, the lord seeker has declared that the divine is useless and doesnt know how to catch mages and so he declared the templar and seeker order independent from the chantry.

"One that Loghain cannot afford"-I swear i remember him and Howe caging a templar to release a blood mage in order to kill a certain Redcliff nobleman. Ofcourse the chantry cant get angry if someone decides to release blood mages, do they?

Modifié par Spicen, 15 septembre 2012 - 03:14 .

[Shadow Fox]

Spicen wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Spicen wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

It was annoying that she came back to life even though she died by one of my characters.

But man some of you guys are a bit too eager to try, and kill a character.

Its creepy.

Relax man, first it was only about getting an option to kill her. But due to good support for killing her, we upped the tempo and so our repies were a little cruel.

You can already kill her in Origins...

And she gets retconned- the main reason to starting this thread.

And what's to stop her death from being retconned again?

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 15 septembre 2012 - 07:24 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Spicen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Spicen wrote...
Well Anders inherited a mostly harmless spirit namely, Justice, that warped into a demon of Vengeance. Pretty simple and again it proves that it doesnt take blood magic to control a demon.

Wait..are you implying Anders controls Justive/Vengance?

For the first 7 years-yes.

No, not really. Justice didn't posses Anders. It's was more of a symbiosis.
Demons possses. Spirits kinda hitch a ride.

Well if u dont know about it, let me give u a news- the chantry is
broken, the lord seeker has declared that the divine is useless and
doesnt know how to catch mages and so he declared the templar and seeker
order independent from the chantry.

Dude...That's future unkown (and uncertain) events.
They do not apply - especially since at the time of Origins the situation is different.
Also, the Divine still carries a lot of political clout - especially among the common folk.

"One that Loghain cannot
afford"-I swear i remember him and Howe caging a templar to release a
blood mage in order to kill a certain Redcliff nobleman. Ofcourse the
chantry cant get angry if someone decides to release blood mages, do
they?

You also recall that they tried to keep that hidden precisely because they feared angering the Chantry.
And the reverend mother certanly did carry a lot of clout during the Landsmeet. All because of a single, unimportant templar.
Now immagine what would happen if Loghain murdered a hero/saint of the chantry?

Immainge what the Pope would do if during the middle ages, an ill-reputed king of a small backwater country decided to kill a great saint chosen by Jesus himself? Can you say excomminication and an open invitation to all countries to invade?

[Cultist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Yes...for a Blood Mage that is a complete faliure as a Warden because he cannot think

In your theory. In existing BioWare practice Blood Mage Wardens succeeded.

You take the word of a CRAZED (your own acknowledgment) cultist over a VERY real possiblity of a greater reward from the Chantry.
Again - a blinded character that doesn't take his duties as a Warden seriously. He is more concerned with hurting the Chantry then stoppingthe Blight. That makes him a faliure as a Warden.

In your imaginary version of DA:O - yes, in real version of Origins you get nothing from Chantry and a reward from cultists. and you stop the Blight. What a failure of a Warden, yes? Even at the moment of talking with cultists Chantry have done nothing to you, promised nothing.

Berserkers are triggered by sometihng..they dont' jstu go berserk willy-nilly.
And attacking the king is suicidal. Not only will the attacker die, but also his companions.

no, attacking the king in his throne room sorounded by his gard, wihout any actual plot reasons...... stupid.

But I see that no matter what example I use you'll just harp on the details endlessly. That is your default strategy to keep avoiding the point I make.

You keep ignoring the conditions presenting most unimaginable examples, where my examples are stripped of any plot or planning - just plain attack. Should we adjust conditions a little, end every your example will be proving me right. Warcraft 3  - Arthas killing the king and once again - Skyrim. You and your party can kill the king if they have a plan of escape and think they can hold royal guard. Berserker can charge a mob if he thinks he can win.

Nope.
Being a stronger warrior doesn't help you as much as having support from a undeniable authority figure.

Dragon Age: Origins proves me right, because being stronger means more able to complete the main quest - uniting the lands and killing the Archdemon.

Except the sacrifice of half of the army was pointless and didn't net you anything really.Stop trying to turn my examples around by adding your own cavetats.

Oh, pot calling a cettle black, eh? Once again ignoring the conditions? But no, now, YOU are setting the conditions for MY examples? That's rich. Sacrifice of an army was worth it because the result was a success. And conditions were either to lose a battle, or sacrifice 50% and win.

Bollocks. Stop trying to reduce everything to absurdity in a pathetic atempt to defend your crumbling position.
The difference between the two examples is so big and obvious, I don't even have to say anything.
Blights destroy entire nations and oyu think a dozen manges will destroy the entire blight? Seriously?
You're grasping for straws so desperately it's funny.

Ad absurdum is a common method of discussion from classical Greek philosophy. You don't have to say anything because you have nothing to say - your theories are based on assumption what Chantry may do, and I tell what actually happened in the game.

Don't assume to lecture me about things you know nothing about.

Well, you tell us what will your imaginary Chantry will do, so you are used to talking about things you know nothing about.

No. Illogical conclusion. Illogical outcome.
Sorry, but that doens't justify it.

For decison making the MOST PROBABLE outcomes at the time of decision making are what matters and make the decision sound or not. Hindsight is irrelevant. And game limitations are too.
At the time of decision making the Warden still has no clout. He doesn't know if Eamon will survive. He's still considered a traitor. And yet he has to unite the land and gather support.

Being a buddy with crazed cultists who work against 99% of the populace won't help you. Swining a sword a bit harder won't help you much either. Spiting on the main religion in the country wont help you either.

Cultists promised to help me to get inside - closer to my goal. I decide to defile the Ashed after i get a piece of them to heal Arl - desecration is reasonable. noone will know about the Ashes - your argument about splitting is invalid.

Chantry support would help you A LOT. Being a living legend for 90% of the populace would help. Being endorsed by hte Divine would help.

Give me an exmple of Chantry suppoprt in Dragon Age: Origins. Not imaginary support that they maybe give you, but actual material support. Examples.

That is logical, but it doesn't end up happening. Becasue it's a game and there's limited resources and there has to be a challenge.
In the same vein, you can't really fail the game. No matter what choice you take, you'll never loose. You can ****** off EVERYONE and you can still fight your way to victory. Kill the nobles during parlay, I'm sure the poepel won't care. I'm sure the army will you jsut JUMP to follow a double traitor.
Which is stupid as hell, but the player can't fail.

You can fail in the game - your Warden may die after killing the Archdemon.
And anyway, the outcome of the game - stopping the blight - making your arguments invalid, as we, with every decision we made, no matter how anti-Chantry they may be, succeed after all. In other words, all you said could be true...but only in a fanfiction about how Chantry supported and reacted to certain actions. But with no relation to real Dragon Age: Origins.

[Cultist]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
And what's to stop her death from being retconned again?

Maybe this thread)

[Auintus]

I accept the retcon. They at least explained it. Doesn't mean I enjoy the Maker messing up what I've done, or that I won't correct it given the chance, but, for now, Leliana lives. The whole point of this thread is hoping for the chance to fix that, right? Not bickering about the morality of the choice.

[Cultist]

Auintus wrote...
The whole point of this thread is hoping for the chance to fix that, right? Not bickering about the morality of the choice.

Exactly that. Our bickering about morality is just for fun.

[InfinitePaths]

No way I'm killing her

[InfinitePaths]

DarkGlaber wrote...

The only thing I don't like about Leliana is her religious believes, but it's not a reason to kill her o.O

I like her fun personallity