766 réponses à ce sujet

[InfinitePaths]

But i definitly want the option to kill her,becouse it is an RPG and it needs to have choices and concequences.In DAO i think you could recruit/kill/reject Leliana.If you kill she's dead(oh i forgot,the maker tought it was not her time and decided to make her head grow out of her body),If you recriut her,well she's Recruited,and if you reject her,she is so persistent that she askes you again later,and you get more funny dialouge you wouldn't have gotten otherwise,this is was made DAO so special,replayability...

[jackofalltrades456]

Excuse me, sir!?

Did you kill Leliana in Origins?

You did!?

Well too bad because she got retconned in the sequel!

WA-HA-WA-HA-WA-HA!!!

[jackofalltrades456]

Really though....

As I've said, I love Leliana to death, but retconning her fate in Origins then cramming her back into the sequel just because is a bad move. It gives me a bad image of how they're going to handle choices in the future games. I mean what if they decide that Alistair should be king no matter since it would fit better with the plot? Even if you watched him die fighting the Arch-Demon? If you want to bring Leliana back I support it, but not if it contradicts our outcomes from the previous games.

[Cultist]

jackofalltrades456 wrote...
I mean what if they decide that Alistair should be king no matter since it would fit better with the plot? Even if you watched him die fighting the Arch-Demon?

Ehhh, hmm...how should I put it...

Modifié par Cultist, 15 septembre 2012 - 02:51 .

[LobselVith8]

Auintus wrote...

I accept the retcon. They at least explained it. Doesn't mean I enjoy the Maker messing up what I've done, or that I won't correct it given the chance, but, for now, Leliana lives. The whole point of this thread is hoping for the chance to fix that, right? Not bickering about the morality of the choice.

It's still unexplained how Leliana was ressurected from the dead. I doubt the developers even know how Leliana came back from the dead. And the direction of the franchise leaves me to believe the protagonist won't be able to kill Leliana in the future.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's still unexplained how Leliana was ressurected from the dead. I doubt the developers even know how Leliana came back from the dead. And the direction of the franchise leaves me to believe the protagonist won't be able to kill Leliana in the future.

I assume they went with the standard "the PC didnt' check if he/she was really dead".

Note that comabt animations don't count to establish the status of "deadness"

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Cultist wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Yes...for a Blood Mage that is a complete faliure as a Warden because he cannot think[/quote]
In your theory. In existing BioWare practice Blood Mage Wardens succeeded.[/quote]

Irrelevant.
He suceeded despite his flaws, not because.

I can play a person that wants ot destroy Ferelden and doign EVERYTHING in my power to destroy it - it won't work.




[quote][quote]
You take the word of a CRAZED (your own acknowledgment) cultist over a VERY real possiblity of a greater reward from the Chantry.
Again - a blinded character that doesn't take his duties as a Warden seriously. He is more concerned with hurting the Chantry then stoppingthe Blight. That makes him a faliure as a Warden.[/quote]

In your imaginary version of DA:O - yes, in real version of Origins you get nothing from Chantry and a reward from cultists. and you stop the Blight. What a failure of a Warden, yes? Even at the moment of talking with cultists Chantry have done nothing to you, promised nothing. [/quote]

IRRELEVANT. How many times do we have to go over this? You cannot retroacticely justify decisions.

BioWare can give you the option to jump from a cliff  on the rocks head first.
Just because oyu end up surviving doesn't make it a sensible or good decision.

And yes. Warden is a faliure because he's talking steps that logicly hurt what should be his goal.



[quote][quote]
But I see that no matter what example I use you'll just harp on the details endlessly. That is your default strategy to keep avoiding the point I make.[/quote]

You keep ignoring the conditions presenting most unimaginable examples, where my examples are stripped of any plot or planning - just plain attack. Should we adjust conditions a little, end every your example will be proving me right. Warcraft 3  - Arthas killing the king and once again - Skyrim. You and your party can kill the king if they have a plan of escape and think they can hold royal guard. Berserker can charge a mob if he thinks he can win.[/quote]

No, you won't be proven right, because you are wrong.
On such a fundamental level that it's stunning. You keep insisting that game mentality (like bursting into every house and robbing everything that isn't nailed, talking to everyone, etc...) is somethingthat wouldbe considered "normal behavior".




[quote][quote]
Nope.
Being a stronger warrior doesn't help you as much as having support from a undeniable authority figure.[/quote]

Dragon Age: Origins proves me right, because being stronger means more able to complete the main quest - uniting the lands and killing the Archdemon.[/quote]

Nope again.
For one, the Warden doesn't know he must fight the Archdemon.
For another, the Warden doesn't have to fight him - he just has to be there when the Archdemoin dies.
And third - the Warden won't even reach the arhdemon wihout an army and united Ferelden
And 4th (since you cna't help but go meta, then so will I) you cna get the Chapoin specialization.


[quote]
Oh, pot calling a cettle black, eh? Once again ignoring the conditions? But no, now, YOU are setting the conditions for MY examples? That's rich. Sacrifice of an army was worth it because the result was a success. And conditions were either to lose a battle, or sacrifice 50% and win.[/quote]

You know, taking my example, and then compeltey changing what I was saiyng is NOT proper debating.
Anyone can do that and it makes everything pointless.

I see giving exampels is utterly lsot on you, sinceyou can't accept anythnig and will change scenarios to something that has no semblance to events in DAO.




[quote]
[quote]Bollocks. Stop trying to reduce everything to absurdity in a pathetic atempt to defend your crumbling position.
The difference between the two examples is so big and obvious, I don't even have to say anything.
Blights destroy entire nations and oyu think a dozen manges will destroy the entire blight? Seriously?
You're grasping for straws so desperately it's funny.[/quote]

Ad absurdum is a common method of discussion from classical Greek philosophy. You don't have to say anything because you have nothing to say - your theories are based on assumption what Chantry may do, and I tell what actually happened in the game.[/quote]

AdAbsurdum is considered BAD DEBATING. Altough what you are doing is closer to a Straw Man, since you tend to arge skewed things. Examples I never made.





[quote]
No. Illogical conclusion. Illogical outcome.
Sorry, but that doens't justify it.

For decison making the MOST PROBABLE outcomes at the time of decision making are what matters and make the decision sound or not. Hindsight is irrelevant. And game limitations are too.
At the time of decision making the Warden still has no clout. He doesn't know if Eamon will survive. He's still considered a traitor. And yet he has to unite the land and gather support.

Being a buddy with crazed cultists who work against 99% of the populace won't help you. Swining a sword a bit harder won't help you much either. Spiting on the main religion in the country wont help you either.[/quote]

Cultists promised to help me to get inside - closer to my goal. I decide to defile the Ashed after i get a piece of them to heal Arl - desecration is reasonable. noone will know about the Ashes - your argument about splitting is invalid.


[quote]
Give me an exmple of Chantry suppoprt in Dragon Age: Origins. Not imaginary support that they maybe give you, but actual material support. Examples.[/quote]

Irrelevant.
What support did hte elves giveyou before?
Or the cultist?


[quote]
[quote]That is logical, but it doesn't end up happening. Becasue it's a game and there's limited resources and there has to be a challenge.
In the same vein, you can't really fail the game. No matter what choice you take, you'll never loose. You can ****** off EVERYONE and you can still fight your way to victory. Kill the nobles during parlay, I'm sure the poepel won't care. I'm sure the army will you jsut JUMP to follow a double traitor.
Which is stupid as hell, but the player can't fail.[/quote]

You can fail in the game - your Warden may die after killing the Archdemon.[/qutoe]

That's not a faliure. The goal of a Warden is to stop the blight.


[quote]
And anyway, the outcome of the game - stopping the blight - making your arguments invalid, as we, with every decision we made, no matter how anti-Chantry they may be, succeed after all. In other words, all you said could be true...but only in a fanfiction about how Chantry supported and reacted to certain actions. But with no relation to real Dragon Age: Origins.
[/quote]

No, in realtaion to actual arguments of weather a action is logical or not.
But you cannot help but metagame, even when trying to reason the validity of actions as a character.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's still unexplained how Leliana was ressurected from the dead. I doubt the developers even know how Leliana came back from the dead. And the direction of the franchise leaves me to believe the protagonist won't be able to kill Leliana in the future.

I assume they went with the standard "the PC didnt' check if he/she was really dead".

Note that comabt animations don't count to establish the status of "deadness"

I went with "the developers are too lazy to properly explain this handwave" explanation.

[Auintus]

The Maker brought her back. She's undead, just very cleverly disguised. Or she was never alive to begin with.

Unrelated question: Why didn't Leliana try to stop me before I defiled the ashes?

Modifié par Auintus, 16 septembre 2012 - 12:06 .

[Shadow Fox]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's still unexplained how Leliana was ressurected from the dead. I doubt the developers even know how Leliana came back from the dead. And the direction of the franchise leaves me to believe the protagonist won't be able to kill Leliana in the future.

I assume they went with the standard "the PC didnt' check if he/she was really dead".

Note that comabt animations don't count to establish the status of "deadness"

Even ignoring the ashes being able to cure anything she'sa Rogue/Bard/Thief/Spy so I'd say she knows how to act dead convincenly.

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 16 septembre 2012 - 05:46 .

[Spicen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

I accept the retcon. They at least explained it. Doesn't mean I enjoy the Maker messing up what I've done, or that I won't correct it given the chance, but, for now, Leliana lives. The whole point of this thread is hoping for the chance to fix that, right? Not bickering about the morality of the choice.

It's still unexplained how Leliana was ressurected from the dead. I doubt the developers even know how Leliana came back from the dead. And the direction of the franchise leaves me to believe the protagonist won't be able to kill Leliana in the future.

I disagree with that. The chantry is in ruins and Bioware will most definitely give us the option to bury it, considering most people hate the chantry. And knowing Leliana, she will most definitely kill the protagonist if he tries to destroy the chantry(side with mages;hardcore). So yeah im sure BW will allow us to kill her.

[Spicen]

Auintus wrote...


Unrelated question: Why didn't Leliana try to stop me before I defiled the ashes?

Trust me i asked the same question to Lotion Soronnar and a gay guy(BSN "Apologist" poster).

Lotion soronnar insulted me as he does to everyone. And the gay guy told that its Bioware's story they can do whatever they wish. Wheter its resurrecting dead bards or brothel ****s or dead Loghains or Fenrises. It's Bioware's story,right? they can do whatever they want.






                                                                        ................................Just dont complain if nobody buys the game

[Spicen]

jackofalltrades456 wrote...

Really though....

As I've said, I love Leliana to death, but retconning her fate in Origins then cramming her back into the sequel just because is a bad move. It gives me a bad image of how they're going to handle choices in the future games. I mean what if they decide that Alistair should be king no matter since it would fit better with the plot? Even if you watched him die fighting the Arch-Demon? If you want to bring Leliana back I support it, but not if it contradicts our outcomes from the previous games.

Absolutely correct.

It was one of the reasons of this thread. And the gay guy told me, "Its BW's game, let them do what the F they want. Im a bioware apologist."  Really some hypocrisy from these kind of people amaze me. And im sure these are the same people that detonated Bioware for ME 3.

[thats1evildude]

They didn't contradict MY choice.

[Spicen]

Auintus wrote...

The Maker brought her back. She's undead, just very cleverly disguised. Or she was never alive to begin with.

OR

Was the killing of Leliana a hallucination? Dragon Age Indoctrination Theory Mark 4!!!


Taking this as a fact she could be Reaper for all we know.

[Spicen]

thats1evildude wrote...

They didn't contradict MY choice.

DA 3 hasnt been released yet, has it now? When its released and some of your choices gets hallucinated, remember my name- S-p-i-c-e-n. Maybe your choice wasnt, but whose to say it never will be changed.

It is the opinion of many, not one that is important.

[Spicen]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's still unexplained how Leliana was ressurected from the dead. I doubt the developers even know how Leliana came back from the dead. And the direction of the franchise leaves me to believe the protagonist won't be able to kill Leliana in the future.

I assume they went with the standard "the PC didnt' check if he/she was really dead".

Note that comabt animations don't count to establish the status of "deadness"

Even ignoring the ashes being able to cure anything she'sa Rogue/Bard/Thief/Spy so I'd say she knows how to act dead convincenly.

Then why did she say, " Maker called me on my phone and told me that it was not my time."

[thats1evildude]

Spicen wrote...

It is the opinion of many, not one that is important.

Nevertheless, my choices are being respected. As far as I'm concerned, the system works.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 16 septembre 2012 - 09:57 .

[Spicen]

thats1evildude wrote...

Spicen wrote...

It is the opinion of many, not one that is important.

Nevertheless, my choices are being respected. As far as I'm concerned, the system works.

Thats like saying to a poor guy regarding charity," Nevertheless, its you who is poor not me why should i give even one cent as a charity."

You are an adult guy and its not my business to tell you whats right and whats left, but this kind of attitude isnt good, man. Because when a certain choice you made was changed and nobody else was effected, nobody will support your claim that time.

And about what system? The system that unless there is a cutscene killing a NPC wont work. And no, the system as a whole(im talking about all the systems in DA 2) flopped badly. Many killed anders in DA A but got themselves "offside" when DA 2 retconned Anders, so no the system is a total failure.

[Spicen]

thats1evildude wrote...

Spicen wrote...

It is the opinion of many, not one that is important.

So what if you were in the minority and the majority of players either didn't care or were glad to see Leliana back in DA2 regardless of what some players decided?

From what I can tell, there's five people spamming this thread over and over again.

The 90% people in this who supported for having the option to kill does not agree with your statement.

So far only the following people have opposed the idea of having the option: Lotion Soronnar, Chris, The Gay guy, You.

[thats1evildude]

I'm not giving money to the poor, I'm arguing about imported decisions in a video game. I wouldn't equate one with the other.

Here's what I don't like about this whole thing: you making noise about killing Leliana sends the message to the devs that a portion of the fanbase doesn't like her. And unfortunately, because you whine a lot louder than I praise, someone at Bioware gets the idea that a majority of the fanbase doesn't like Leliana, or at least a sizeable enough portion that they shouldn't bring her back. I like Leliana and want to see her in future games.

Why should I care about your desires when they're in direct conflict with my own? Because of a decision the company MIGHT make?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 16 septembre 2012 - 10:04 .

[Spicen]

thats1evildude wrote...

I'm not giving money to the poor, I'm arguing about imported decisions in a video game. I wouldn't equate one with the other.

Here's what I don't like about this whole thing: you making noise about killing Leliana sends the message to the devs that a portion of the fanbase doesn't like her. And unfortunately, because you whine a lot louder than I praise, someone at Bioware gets the idea that a majority of the fanbase doesn't like Leliana, or at least a sizeable enough portion that they shouldn't bring her back. I like Leliana and want to see her in future games.

Why should I care about your desires when they're in direct conflict with my own? Because of a decision the company MIGHT make?

Well theres a lot of people who likes the "whole thing."

Now, how do i reply? I could insult you like your fellow Leliana- fanboy Lotion Soronnar or i could be polite like myself. I want to be myself so i will be polite.

Am i saying Leliana should be blocked from the future sequels? Have you even read my comments. I want her back so that she can be killed . My desires are irrelevant, i am voicing my opinion that the option to kill her should be there. And about whining, let me tell you that 90% of the people here supported to have the OPTION to kill her. So tell how does that conflict with you? You can keep her alive, i can throw her in a scorpion's den. Everyone's happy.

                                                                              ..........................unless you do not know the meaning of "OPTION"

Modifié par Spicen, 16 septembre 2012 - 10:41 .

[Auintus]

thats1evildude wrote...

Here's what I don't like about this whole thing: you making noise about killing Leliana sends the message to the devs that a portion of the fanbase doesn't like her.

Nonsense, I like her. I romanced her on my first playthrough. But one of my wardens killed her and she didn't stay that way. I just want to be able to reaffirm that choice. On the one version of my "canon."

[Lotion Soronarr]

Spicen wrote...

Auintus wrote...


Unrelated question: Why didn't Leliana try to stop me before I defiled the ashes?

Trust me i asked the same question to Lotion Soronnar and a gay guy(BSN "Apologist" poster).

Lotion soronnar insulted me as he does to everyone. And the gay guy told that its Bioware's story they can do whatever they wish. Wheter its resurrecting dead bards or brothel ****s or dead Loghains or Fenrises. It's Bioware's story,right? they can do whatever they want.

And do you recall my response?
Here it is again.

I don't know.
I suspect it's because she didn't think you would go trough with it and were only bluffing Kolgrim. Sound plausible enough.
Also, deliberatly using such strong languge IS trying to goad Leliana fans.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 16 septembre 2012 - 02:42 .

[Spicen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Auintus wrote...


Unrelated question: Why didn't Leliana try to stop me before I defiled the ashes?

Trust me i asked the same question to Lotion Soronnar and a gay guy(BSN "Apologist" poster).

Lotion soronnar insulted me as he does to everyone. And the gay guy told that its Bioware's story they can do whatever they wish. Wheter its resurrecting dead bards or brothel ****s or dead Loghains or Fenrises. It's Bioware's story,right? they can do whatever they want.

And do you recall my response?
Here it is again.

I don't know.
I suspect it's because she didn't think you would go trough with it and were only bluffing Kolgrim. Sound plausible enough.
Also, deliberatly using such strong languge IS trying to goad Leliana fans.

The language was not my own words.

It was the kinds words from that gay guy.