766 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Cultist wrote...
Your example of knife and gun means nothing because BM actually helps Warden in the game. Not theoretically, like Chantry, but in practice.
No matter how many times you'll call my argument wrongwrongwrong, it'll not be less important. Chantry never provided me with at the moment of making decision, should I help Chantry or oppose it. So no metagaming here.[/quote]

It means something. Because Chantry support is more conductive to the goal of stopping the Blight and there is NOTHING to indicate you won't get it. Neither is there anything to support your belief that Kolgrim will keep his word.




[quote][quote]
Also, if we want ot argue your logic, then if a rich Duke loses his soon, and you find him - according to you it is ILLOGICAL to assume the duke will reward you...based on...well, the duke never giving you anything before?
Yeah, your logic is flawles...[/quote]
Warden don't need control over dragon, he just needs to pass to the temple. Thus, cultists proved to be useful. If the Duke never promised anything as a reward, I won't care much about son. And if that Duke hates my kind, then I will blackmail or slay his son. Same goes if I hate the Duke.[/quote]

1) So you assume parents hate their children? Again ,waht reason is there to believe you won't get rewarded?
2) Saving Ferelden should take precedence over hatered for the Chantry. If your Warden cannot set his priorities straight, he's a poor Warden.


[quote]
[quote]Again with the metagame, unaplicable arguments. This is really frustrating.
YOU CANNOT USE THAT AS AN ARGUMNET.
When making decision you calculate what you CAN get (pros and cons) of every choice. You do not know what you WILL get. Even the most logical of decisions can sometimes not yield the desired result, HOWEVER, that doesn't make them any less logical. (and again, I'll point out the Bioware slip up ghere)

You know what - from this point on, every time you bring forth this argument I'm jsut gonan ignore it. Stupidity of this caliber isn't not worth even quoting.[/quote]

I can and I will because that is logical. I calculate and take in account my previous experience with different organizations, and Chantry stands in a disadvantage here. I KNOW that cultists promised me power, I DON'T know that Chantry will reward me, and not strangle in a backyard to keep their secret. and that's assuming Warden is neutral or pro-chantry.
Of course you will ignore it, because you cannot counter it. Except for your fanfiction.[/quote]

It is not logical.
Knowledge of future events cannot be used to justify past choices. Period.

And what past experience? There is no past experience other than Lothering. And they did help you a bit - DESPITE YOU BEING A WANTED TRAITOR. And you didn't offer nothing in return.
And the cultists promissed you? The same cultists that have been trying to kill you for hours and whos' many memebrs you killed?

Yeah, you bet your ass I will ignore it, because it's grade A garbage.





[quote]
Really? In roman society it was normal to have slaves. and if you decided to free them peopel looked at you and said "There's something wrong with this one.". Roleplayers can do whatever they want - and fictional world must respond to their abnormal behaviour. People are not playing GTA to drive by the rules you know.[/quote]

Thank you for proving me right - people in games act like they wouldn't in the real world and make illogical/Stupid choices and actions.



[quote]
[quote]Which is a faliure from Bioware. You arne't given any alternatives (so much for roleplaying..everythnig is decided by the sword)

And no. This does not stand. You are again, using metagame thinking.
So if you have an option for your Warden to commit suicide - which should logicly end the game - but insted this awakens a spirit that  wins you the game - your'e saying that the warden deciding to kill himself was a logical decision on his part (even tough he didn't know about the spirit)?[/quote]

So you basically say that because you think BioWare's story is flawed you know how should it be done? That is exactly fanfiction. You eithe can deal with BioWare's plot, or go look for another game...or make a mod.[/quote]

Nope. I say that Bioware didn't incproporate the logical consequences of an action. Never explained it. Maybe it was oversght. Maybe they deliberately did nothing. It happens. It happen before - in movies, games and books.

You know, if there's a logical consequence/reaction for an action, and it doesn't happen, you have to ask yourself why. You rescuing the ashes should have had a BIG impact on the world.

Immagine if you were to find the original manuscript written by Mohhamed. Do you think it would go unnoticed in the middle east?





[quote][quote]
Just because you CAN manage to do something isn the gmae (either trough cheats, exploits OR the game being just too easy or silly) doesn't make it smart or logical.
Skyrim? In any REAL town there would be a LOT more guards and you would be dead. The entire town being populated by 4 guards and the PC being overpowered at higher levels is completely irreelvant I suppose?[/quote]

Make up your mind. Either you use real-world examples to prove your position in the game, or not. Want to use real town example? Ok, then take in account population, crowds among which you can hide and miriad other factors. Otherwise - use game examples we have. We are talking about GAMES. Not "how this situation would look in real life". And in the games, if you do something, that leads you to victory it is fundamentally logical.[/quote]

You fail again.
If you are in the castle you would be sorounded by gaurds. You wouldn't make it to the streets. And peopel would know how oyu look, because castles are notoriously not empy.
Walking in the castle and killing the king makes as much sense as walking into the White House and killing the president.



[quote][quote]
your logic sucks and is broken as hell.
I'm taking as a logical choices for a WARDEN. WARDEN. As in - job descritpion: stop Blight.
You Blood mage doesn't interest me. If he does things to futher his agendas, but which hurt his chances agaisnt hte Blight, then he is a ******-poor Warden (regardless if those move make sense for him). Which IS what I have been saying.[/quote]
Warden cannot be a Blood Mage? Warden uses BM to stop the Blight - he fulfills his agenda as a Warden, so no problem here. If Warden BM harms Chantry in a process -all the better.[/quote]

Warden can be a BM, but again - priorities.
Sub-optimal solutions for personal gain. You warden sucks. Deal with it.



[quote][quote]
No, they are not.

For one, it's not my tactic. Abysmal debating techinques are your signature move, not mine.
For another, if you realyl think the probabily is equal for both ofhte events, you are beyond redicolous.

Really...a singel mage killing all of darkspawn? REALLY?
That is equally likely as the Chantry rewarding you for recovering their most holy artifact AND being indorsed by the Gaurdian?[/quote]

Both examples never happened. Both are a work of fiction.[/quote]

Your mind is a work of fiction.



[quote][quote]
It is you who must prove that atypical behavior will happen. Not the other way around.

And no, I don't have to prove that the Chantry WILL do it, I have to prove that it is LIKELY they will do it and that they CAN do it. And both of those are easy.

Your statement reamins IRRELEVANT, as again - you cannot use future knowledge to justify the logic of decisions made in the past.[/quote]

It is you, who appeals to future logic. Chantry will, Chantry may, Chantry should. My examples were based on what actually happened. So if you remember we started all this on desecration ofthe Ashes and if this desecration is logical and reasonable. I got real, backed by actual in-game lines, promise of cultists you, on the other hand, imagined some chantry reward. Promise made is more than promise imagined. Power - here and now. Chantry reward - later....maybe...probably.[/quote]

.....<_<

If you say your choices are based on what actually happened, then you freely admit that you ARE using future knowledge - which your Warden doesn't have.
By saying someone can and probably will do something, it is not future knowledge. It is probabiltiy and knowedge of capabiltiy of someone to do something.
The Warden KNOWS that the Chantry is capable of helping him. It has he military and political AND social clout.
It is also reasonable to assume a reward for the THE MOST IMPORTANT FIND IN HISTORY.
You are assuming that Kolgrim will keep his word, and you don't seem to have a problem with that.

You got nothing. Just a "promise" from a fantical cultists that isnt' any more solid than the probable chantry reward. Kolgrims reward... - later (after you defile the ashes)...maybe...probably



[quote]
You mean when Warden have to threaten revered mother into giving up her key? Great help indeed![/quote]

I was reffernig to the supplies you get. (some healing pots and  boots I believe)
And again - Lothering was in dire straits. And you are a wanted traitor (and a blood mage apparently).
So really...You are claming some redicolous hostility given the situation.



[quote]
Acheving victory at all costs is a flawed logic? Well, I guess you have a hard time with walkthroughs.[/quote]

Achiving victory at a greater cost than necessary.


[quote]
[quote]No.
Personal justification DOES NOT equal logic[/quote]
Of course it does. if I can back my decision by reasons then it is logical. [/quote]

Nope. Reasons don't have to be logical.


[quote]
[quote]Wrong. I don't agree with you and never will.
Your statement that saving them gives you nothing is utterly false in the context of decision making. You make a projected payoff based on nothing but your own hatered of Chantry. That's it.
At the same time, you over-inflate the importance and probability of the cultists payoff.
Seriously. I'm getting sick of you and your abysmal debating and your immunity to common sense.
If I hear that "chantry gives you nothing" un-argument just one more time - I'm putting you on my ignore list.[/quote]
Chantry gave you nothing before meeting the cultists. Chantry give(or promised) you nothing at the moment of meeting. Chantry will not give you nothing for the rest of the game. It's a fact. You can't deny them as they are written in Dragon Age: Origins plot.

See, you can ignore me now and not embarass yourself further with proving your arguments by your own fantasies.
it's like god exists because bible says so. And bible is true because god says so.
[/quote]

Ignore list it is.

And don't kid yourself.
The only one embarassing himself here is you. Because your inabiltiy to grasp even the simplest of concepts, and total refusal to abandon your metagame knowledge is enough to doom you a thousand times over.

You use plot to retroactively try to jsutify your in-game decisions. You claim facts that arne't facts.
It is a practice that cannot stand in any serious debate.

I'm begining to suspect that you deliberately repeated the un-argument just to get me to ignore you. Cause that's the only way you can "win".

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 18 septembre 2012 - 10:34 .

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

If it had a soul, that soul would have come into conflict with Urthemiel's. That's what destroys the Grey warden. Since there was no conflict and the child still lives, the ritual must've worked.

How woudl oyu nkow that?

Everything you think you know about souls is told to you by Morrigan.
Absolutley no one else knows anything about it.
Even circle mages don't have magis that deals with souls.

So all you have to go on with is Morrigans theory. Unconfirmed. How would oyu know what happens with the baby and it's soul?
For all you know the Archdemon might gobble it's tiny soul and take over the body.

No, the "conflict between the souls" bit is explained by Riordan. The grey warden's are neccesary because they can draw the archdemon soul into an inhabited vessel. A darkspawn is a souless, tainted vessel, thus the archdemon returns.
Morrigan's bit draws the soul into a currently-souless, untainted vessel, resulting in the untainted birth of a being with the soul of an old god.

[Spicen]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]Cultist wrote...
Your example of knife and gun means nothing because BM actually helps Warden in the game. Not theoretically, like Chantry, but in practice.
No matter how many times you'll call my argument wrongwrongwrong, it'll not be less important. Chantry never provided me with at the moment of making decision, should I help Chantry or oppose it. So no metagaming here.[/quote]

It means something. Because Chantry support is more conductive to the goal of stopping the Blight and there is NOTHING to indicate you won't get it. Neither is there anything to support your belief that Kolgrim will keep his word.




[quote][quote]
Also, if we want ot argue your logic, then if a rich Duke loses his soon, and you find him - according to you it is ILLOGICAL to assume the duke will reward you...based on...well, the duke never giving you anything before?
Yeah, your logic is flawles...[/quote]
Warden don't need control over dragon, he just needs to pass to the temple. Thus, cultists proved to be useful. If the Duke never promised anything as a reward, I won't care much about son. And if that Duke hates my kind, then I will blackmail or slay his son. Same goes if I hate the Duke.[/quote]

1) So you assume parents hate their children? Again ,waht reason is there to believe you won't get rewarded?
2) Saving Ferelden should take precedence over hatered for the Chantry. If your Warden cannot set his priorities straight, he's a poor Warden.


[quote]
[quote]Again with the metagame, unaplicable arguments. This is really frustrating.
YOU CANNOT USE THAT AS AN ARGUMNET.
When making decision you calculate what you CAN get (pros and cons) of every choice. You do not know what you WILL get. Even the most logical of decisions can sometimes not yield the desired result, HOWEVER, that doesn't make them any less logical. (and again, I'll point out the Bioware slip up ghere)

You know what - from this point on, every time you bring forth this argument I'm jsut gonan ignore it. Stupidity of this caliber isn't not worth even quoting.[/quote]

I can and I will because that is logical. I calculate and take in account my previous experience with different organizations, and Chantry stands in a disadvantage here. I KNOW that cultists promised me power, I DON'T know that Chantry will reward me, and not strangle in a backyard to keep their secret. and that's assuming Warden is neutral or pro-chantry.
Of course you will ignore it, because you cannot counter it. Except for your fanfiction.[/quote]

It is not logical.
Knowledge of future events cannot be used to justify past choices. Period.

And what past experience? There is no past experience other than Lothering. And they did help you a bit - DESPITE YOU BEING A WANTED TRAITOR. And you didn't offer nothing in return.
And the cultists promissed you? The same cultists that have been trying to kill you for hours and whos' many memebrs you killed?

Yeah, you bet your ass I will ignore it, because it's grade A garbage.





[quote]
Really? In roman society it was normal to have slaves. and if you decided to free them peopel looked at you and said "There's something wrong with this one.". Roleplayers can do whatever they want - and fictional world must respond to their abnormal behaviour. People are not playing GTA to drive by the rules you know.[/quote]

Thank you for proving me right - people in games act like they wouldn't in the real world and make illogical/Stupid choices and actions.



[quote]
[quote]Which is a faliure from Bioware. You arne't given any alternatives (so much for roleplaying..everythnig is decided by the sword)

And no. This does not stand. You are again, using metagame thinking.
So if you have an option for your Warden to commit suicide - which should logicly end the game - but insted this awakens a spirit that  wins you the game - your'e saying that the warden deciding to kill himself was a logical decision on his part (even tough he didn't know about the spirit)?[/quote]

So you basically say that because you think BioWare's story is flawed you know how should it be done? That is exactly fanfiction. You eithe can deal with BioWare's plot, or go look for another game...or make a mod.[/quote]

Nope. I say that Bioware didn't incproporate the logical consequences of an action. Never explained it. Maybe it was oversght. Maybe they deliberately did nothing. It happens. It happen before - in movies, games and books.

You know, if there's a logical consequence/reaction for an action, and it doesn't happen, you have to ask yourself why. You rescuing the ashes should have had a BIG impact on the world.

Immagine if you were to find the original manuscript written by Mohhamed. Do you think it would go unnoticed in the middle east?





[quote][quote]
Just because you CAN manage to do something isn the gmae (either trough cheats, exploits OR the game being just too easy or silly) doesn't make it smart or logical.
Skyrim? In any REAL town there would be a LOT more guards and you would be dead. The entire town being populated by 4 guards and the PC being overpowered at higher levels is completely irreelvant I suppose?[/quote]

Make up your mind. Either you use real-world examples to prove your position in the game, or not. Want to use real town example? Ok, then take in account population, crowds among which you can hide and miriad other factors. Otherwise - use game examples we have. We are talking about GAMES. Not "how this situation would look in real life". And in the games, if you do something, that leads you to victory it is fundamentally logical.[/quote]

You fail again.
If you are in the castle you would be sorounded by gaurds. You wouldn't make it to the streets. And peopel would know how oyu look, because castles are notoriously not empy.
Walking in the castle and killing the king makes as much sense as walking into the White House and killing the president.



[quote][quote]
your logic sucks and is broken as hell.
I'm taking as a logical choices for a WARDEN. WARDEN. As in - job descritpion: stop Blight.
You Blood mage doesn't interest me. If he does things to futher his agendas, but which hurt his chances agaisnt hte Blight, then he is a ******-poor Warden (regardless if those move make sense for him). Which IS what I have been saying.[/quote]
Warden cannot be a Blood Mage? Warden uses BM to stop the Blight - he fulfills his agenda as a Warden, so no problem here. If Warden BM harms Chantry in a process -all the better.[/quote]

Warden can be a BM, but again - priorities.
Sub-optimal solutions for personal gain. You warden sucks. Deal with it.



[quote][quote]
No, they are not.

For one, it's not my tactic. Abysmal debating techinques are your signature move, not mine.
For another, if you realyl think the probabily is equal for both ofhte events, you are beyond redicolous.

Really...a singel mage killing all of darkspawn? REALLY?
That is equally likely as the Chantry rewarding you for recovering their most holy artifact AND being indorsed by the Gaurdian?[/quote]

Both examples never happened. Both are a work of fiction.[/quote]

Your mind is a work of fiction.



[quote][quote]
It is you who must prove that atypical behavior will happen. Not the other way around.

And no, I don't have to prove that the Chantry WILL do it, I have to prove that it is LIKELY they will do it and that they CAN do it. And both of those are easy.

Your statement reamins IRRELEVANT, as again - you cannot use future knowledge to justify the logic of decisions made in the past.[/quote]

It is you, who appeals to future logic. Chantry will, Chantry may, Chantry should. My examples were based on what actually happened. So if you remember we started all this on desecration ofthe Ashes and if this desecration is logical and reasonable. I got real, backed by actual in-game lines, promise of cultists you, on the other hand, imagined some chantry reward. Promise made is more than promise imagined. Power - here and now. Chantry reward - later....maybe...probably.[/quote]

.....<_<

If you say your choices are based on what actually happened, then you freely admit that you ARE using future knowledge - which your Warden doesn't have.
By saying someone can and probably will do something, it is not future knowledge. It is probabiltiy and knowedge of capabiltiy of someone to do something.
The Warden KNOWS that the Chantry is capable of helping him. It has he military and political AND social clout.
It is also reasonable to assume a reward for the THE MOST IMPORTANT FIND IN HISTORY.
You are assuming that Kolgrim will keep his word, and you don't seem to have a problem with that.

You got nothing. Just a "promise" from a fantical cultists that isnt' any more solid than the probable chantry reward. Kolgrims reward... - later (after you defile the ashes)...maybe...probably



[quote]
You mean when Warden have to threaten revered mother into giving up her key? Great help indeed![/quote]

I was reffernig to the supplies you get. (some healing pots and  boots I believe)
And again - Lothering was in dire straits. And you are a wanted traitor (and a blood mage apparently).
So really...You are claming some redicolous hostility given the situation.



[quote]
Acheving victory at all costs is a flawed logic? Well, I guess you have a hard time with walkthroughs.[/quote]

Achiving victory at a greater cost than necessary.


[quote]
[quote]No.
Personal justification DOES NOT equal logic[/quote]
Of course it does. if I can back my decision by reasons then it is logical. [/quote]

Nope. Reasons don't have to be logical.


[quote]
[quote]Wrong. I don't agree with you and never will.
Your statement that saving them gives you nothing is utterly false in the context of decision making. You make a projected payoff based on nothing but your own hatered of Chantry. That's it.
At the same time, you over-inflate the importance and probability of the cultists payoff.
Seriously. I'm getting sick of you and your abysmal debating and your immunity to common sense.
If I hear that "chantry gives you nothing" un-argument just one more time - I'm putting you on my ignore list.[/quote]
Chantry gave you nothing before meeting the cultists. Chantry give(or promised) you nothing at the moment of meeting. Chantry will not give you nothing for the rest of the game. It's a fact. You can't deny them as they are written in Dragon Age: Origins plot.

See, you can ignore me now and not embarass yourself further with proving your arguments by your own fantasies.
it's like god exists because bible says so. And bible is true because god says so.
[/quote]

Ignore list it is.

And don't kid yourself.
The only one embarassing himself here is you. Because your inabiltiy to grasp even the simplest of concepts, and total refusal to abandon your metagame knowledge is enough to doom you a thousand times over.

You use plot to retroactively try to jsutify your in-game decisions. You claim facts that arne't facts.
It is a practice that cannot stand in any serious debate.

I'm begining to suspect that you deliberately repeated the un-argument just to get me to ignore you. Cause that's the only way you can "win".
[/quote]

Okay jumped in to say,

Ofcourse the chantry wants the bight to stop. Common sense. But what cultist asked was did the chantry actually do anything about it? Absolutely nothing, apart from blesseings.

[Auintus]

Y'know, all the time people are pointing out that you need to find the ashes to heal Eamon, does anybody ever mention what the discovery would mean for the chantry? Nobody ever suggests that they would help you. No one ever even mentions the impact it would have on chantry doctrine. No one ever suggests that it means anything more to them then to anything else.

[Uglybandit]

Spicen wrote...

So yeah, i killed leliana in my DAO playthrough however that hary queen was kept alive by bioware(possibly pinches of andraste's ashes were dropped on leliana accidentally) becoz of canon. Please BW give the fans a chance to finally put the harpy queen to bed?!?

Did you say "take her to bed"? Like along with Morrigan, Isabella, Merril, and Cassandra at the same time? My friend we think alike.


Bonus if we have Wynne in a black leather servants outfit bringing us breakfast the next morning, and telling us stories on the many times she took on the entire womens gymnastics squad.


Folks are going to now tell me that game would get an "X" rating. Yeah whats the problem?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

If it had a soul, that soul would have come into conflict with Urthemiel's. That's what destroys the Grey warden. Since there was no conflict and the child still lives, the ritual must've worked.

How woudl oyu nkow that?

Everything you think you know about souls is told to you by Morrigan.
Absolutley no one else knows anything about it.
Even circle mages don't have magis that deals with souls.

So all you have to go on with is Morrigans theory. Unconfirmed. How would oyu know what happens with the baby and it's soul?
For all you know the Archdemon might gobble it's tiny soul and take over the body.

No, the "conflict between the souls" bit is explained by Riordan. The grey warden's are neccesary because they can draw the archdemon soul into an inhabited vessel. A darkspawn is a souless, tainted vessel, thus the archdemon returns.
Morrigan's bit draws the soul into a currently-souless, untainted vessel, resulting in the untainted birth of a being with the soul of an old god.

I would like to remind you that there isn't magic ot detect or manipulate souls.
What Riordan knows is pretty much what he is told. It makes kinda sense, but what would happen with a childs soul - how would he know? When did the Warden ever do something like a Dark Ritual?
How would anyone even know that a child IS soulless? Why would a child be soulless?

Face it - it's all a risk. One big uncertanty. Playing dice with the soul (and life) of your child.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Spicen wrote...
Okay jumped in to say,

Ofcourse the chantry wants the bight to stop. Common sense. But what cultist asked was did the chantry actually do anything about it? Absolutely nothing, apart from blesseings.

What? What about Lothering? The Chantry and the tempalrs were the only defense left.
Helping an guarding people, feeding them, giving them shelter - that's nothing?

Don't forget - Ferelden is isolated and news doesn't travel fast.
And few believed it was a real Blight to begin with. By the time the Dive calls for an Exhalted March, Ferelden would be lost.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Y'know, all the time people are pointing out that you need to find the ashes to heal Eamon, does anybody ever mention what the discovery would mean for the chantry? Nobody ever suggests that they would help you. No one ever even mentions the impact it would have on chantry doctrine. No one ever suggests that it means anything more to them then to anything else.

And this is what I was reffering to with BioWare overlooking something obvious.

[Spicen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

If it had a soul, that soul would have come into conflict with Urthemiel's. That's what destroys the Grey warden. Since there was no conflict and the child still lives, the ritual must've worked.

How woudl oyu nkow that?

Everything you think you know about souls is told to you by Morrigan.
Absolutley no one else knows anything about it.
Even circle mages don't have magis that deals with souls.

So all you have to go on with is Morrigans theory. Unconfirmed. How would oyu know what happens with the baby and it's soul?
For all you know the Archdemon might gobble it's tiny soul and take over the body.

No, the "conflict between the souls" bit is explained by Riordan. The grey warden's are neccesary because they can draw the archdemon soul into an inhabited vessel. A darkspawn is a souless, tainted vessel, thus the archdemon returns.
Morrigan's bit draws the soul into a currently-souless, untainted vessel, resulting in the untainted birth of a being with the soul of an old god.

Face it - it's all a risk. One big uncertanty. Playing dice with the soul (and life) of your child.

The options are play the dice or not play at all. So for me its a no brainer. And about child, cmon man that "child" is not even an embryo by the time the archdemon dies.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Spicen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Face it - it's all a risk. One big uncertanty. Playing dice with the soul (and life) of your child

The options are play the dice or not play at all. So for me its a no brainer. And about child, cmon man that "child" is not even an embryo by the time the archdemon dies.

Ye abortion dillema. Lets not get into it....

And no, I wouldn't play dice. Not only am I risking the soul of my child, but also the future of the world.

All we have to go on off is Morrigans world. Her word that the child dorsn't have a soul. Her word that the OGB will be harmless, and not the anti-christ. Her word that she knows what she's doing...when she never done anything like this before.
When all she knows about this ritual comes form Flemeths decyphered book... the book Flementh knew she was after (and knowing Flemeth it might not even be the right book).
For all the Warden knows, bumping uglies with Morrigan can kill him.

Too many unknowns, too many risks.

[ImperatorMortis]

Nevermind. Don't want to get in a abortion debate. 

Also for the record. I doubt it really counts a "child". 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 19 septembre 2012 - 10:50 .

[Auintus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I would like to remind you that there isn't magic ot detect or manipulate souls.
What Riordan knows is pretty much what he is told. It makes kinda sense, but what would happen with a childs soul - how would he know? When did the Warden ever do something like a Dark Ritual?
How would anyone even know that a child IS soulless? Why would a child be soulless?

Face it - it's all a risk. One big uncertanty. Playing dice with the soul (and life) of your child.

He said that Wardens were able to sense the archdemon's soul jump from darkspawn to darkspawn, so they can detect it. The child apparently starts off souless because there was no conflict between its soul and Urthemiel's soul after the ritual.

Modifié par Auintus, 19 septembre 2012 - 12:59 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Auintus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I would like to remind you that there isn't magic ot detect or manipulate souls.
What Riordan knows is pretty much what he is told. It makes kinda sense, but what would happen with a childs soul - how would he know? When did the Warden ever do something like a Dark Ritual?
How would anyone even know that a child IS soulless? Why would a child be soulless?

Face it - it's all a risk. One big uncertanty. Playing dice with the soul (and life) of your child.

He said that Wardens were able to sense the archdemon's soul jump from darkspawn to darkspawn, so they can detect it. The child apparently starts off souless because there was no conflict between its soul and Urthemiel's soul after the ritual.

1) I don't recall spacificly saying they were "sensing" the soul.
2) Apparently. Again, just because the baby was born doesn't mean anything. Maybe a baby soul is too weak to the archdemon soul just gobbles it up? That explanation makes just as much sense.

[King Dragonlord]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Y'know, all the time people are pointing out that you need to find the ashes to heal Eamon, does anybody ever mention what the discovery would mean for the chantry? Nobody ever suggests that they would help you. No one ever even mentions the impact it would have on chantry doctrine. No one ever suggests that it means anything more to them then to anything else.

And this is what I was reffering to with BioWare overlooking something obvious.

I think this is a minor point for the Chantry. Nobody seems to be disputing that the Ashes exist but that they would be in Fereldan. Its unlikely that the location of a saints remains would cause any major upheval compared, proving or disproving the EXISTENCE of remains or the NATURE of remains and neither of the latter two were ever in question. Everyone seems to believe that Andraste left remains and that those remains were ashes. Having those Ashes turn up in an unexpected location would be nothing more than a minor mystery at best for pretty much any religion especially after centuries have passed. 

Its nothing compared to the controversy that would be stirred in the Chantry if Lelianna's vision received validation. The idea that the Maker loves us all and is not simply punishing most of us while favoring a few would be highly controversial if it wasn't so easily written off as the silly dream of some lay sister. 

[TheGoddess0fWar]

I just found this in the Dragon Age wiki for Awakening Epilogues:

If left to defend the Keep without enough upgrades to it, he is found dead with an arrow through his neck with hundreds of darkspawn dead in a circle around him; none were touched with a blade, but all were felled by magic.

Interesting. Either way, love Anders.

[LobselVith8]

TheGoddess0fWar wrote...

I just found this in the Dragon Age wiki for Awakening Epilogues:

If left to defend the Keep without enough upgrades to it, he is found dead with an arrow through his neck with hundreds of darkspawn dead in a circle around him; none were touched with a blade, but all were felled by magic.

Interesting. Either way, love Anders.

Yeah, the developers rectonned some things after Origins, which is part of the reason behind the OP - another chance to kill Leliana, since she was brought back in Dragon Age II to life if The Warden killed her in Origins.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 18 janvier 2013 - 06:21 .

[perfect_victime]

King Dragonlord wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Y'know, all the time people are pointing out that you need to find the ashes to heal Eamon, does anybody ever mention what the discovery would mean for the chantry? Nobody ever suggests that they would help you. No one ever even mentions the impact it would have on chantry doctrine. No one ever suggests that it means anything more to them then to anything else.

And this is what I was reffering to with BioWare overlooking something obvious.

I think this is a minor point for the Chantry. Nobody seems to be disputing that the Ashes exist but that they would be in Fereldan. Its unlikely that the location of a saints remains would cause any major upheval compared, proving or disproving the EXISTENCE of remains or the NATURE of remains and neither of the latter two were ever in question. Everyone seems to believe that Andraste left remains and that those remains were ashes. Having those Ashes turn up in an unexpected location would be nothing more than a minor mystery at best for pretty much any religion especially after centuries have passed. 

Its nothing compared to the controversy that would be stirred in the Chantry if Lelianna's vision received validation. The idea that the Maker loves us all and is not simply punishing most of us while favoring a few would be highly controversial if it wasn't so easily written off as the silly dream of some lay sister. 

Also the ashes could be used to cure a Warden. Thus King Alistar whould be able to have children/heirs.  Also meaning, no Grey Warden on the thrown.  No one even suggested it in game, which begs the question, Why wouldn't they? Also it was sometime before the seekers removed the urn so it isn't a case of it not available.