766 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

Spicen wrote...

Anvos wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

So too, who's to say that there isn't anyone else in Thedas who has had a similar experience. We may not have met them yet, or uncovered their journals and records. Just because we haven't heard of any other Maker-mortal conversations doesn't mean that they haven't happened. 

Even if you accept the maker talked to andraste and not the other leading theory on andraste there is the other option where there have been many others with visions from the maker and their accountings like the books providing the evidence andraste was just an apostate abomination ended up being barbqued by the chantry or used as an alternate fuel source for burning hertics and blood mages.

Not to mention that its really the guardian who is the hypocrit (and overly judgemental) when he thinks Andraste could hear the maker yet nobody else ever has been as special of a flower as her.  In the end he is just a fanatical guardian of the chantry who realizes that if the maker interacts with more than one person then their whole claim of the maker turning his back on the world falls apart, which in return shatters one of the core beliefs of the chantry that tries to give their worship of an apostate abomination validity.

The guardian is a hypocrite..........oh i get it ur an atheist. Well then lets dance

• Can u explain why he is surviving for thousands of years and no dont use oghren's theory as excuse. There is a tev. statue who says that the maker will come to light the fires......clearly proves that the maker exists it was the maker and not lyrium that gave the ashes powerful attribute.
  
• The chantry is not a lie, if u played legacy ull find the darkspawn saying that they went to the golden city but suddenly found that it got black. This explains the chantry theory.
  
• The guardian's power to see through the people's minds and reflect their pasts shows that he is no normal chantry "hypocrite" he really has maker-given powers and no he is no blood mage or he wuda used it in his fight.
  
• The spirits in the gaunlet tells some of the war scene and show that Andraste was really an important figure to the maker and not some hypocrite like Leliana.
  
• The guardian didnt think he knew that andraste spoke with the maker and on the other hand he cud easily see that Leliana wanted to make herself important by saying that she had visions of the maker. Leliana was unable to reply.
  
• If andraste was an abomination the last thing she wud do is rebel against the Tevinter.
  
• By the way, the chantry is also right about blood mages, coz these guys have the power to tear the veils.

I am patiently waiting for ur reply.

[*] The guardian is a spirit, amongst all the other spirits in the gauntlet. They do not grow old and die.A tevinter statue prove nothing at all. It is not objective.
[*]
[*]Or Cory and the Architecht were the first awakened Darkspawn, not the first darkspawn, besides he says the the city was black when they arrived, disproving that the magister tainted it.
[*]Any powerfull enough demon and spirit can sense people emotion and their mind. Just see both da:o and da2 when we are in the Fade, the demon/spirits knows exactly what makes your companions tick.
[*]
[*]They are spirits, upholding a illussion. They have a fancy story they tell you, it proves nothing.
[*]
[*]Leliana being tounge tied proves... what? That the guardian can see people weaknesses?
[*]
[*]Why should an aborimination not wish to rebel against Tevinter. Tevinter are not heaven for demons, the demons are enslaved, bound via blood magic as much as anyone else, plus if a demon got stuck in a non-magister babarian such as Andraste it didn't have so much power, why should it not wish more? Not mention she could have been a spirit abormination such as Anders and Wynne, which means that it might have been impossible for her to see the injustices in tevinter stand.
[*]Death and suffering tears the veil, blood magic can do that, but what has that to do with Andraste?

[Spicen]

esper wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Anvos wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

So too, who's to say that there isn't anyone else in Thedas who has had a similar experience. We may not have met them yet, or uncovered their journals and records. Just because we haven't heard of any other Maker-mortal conversations doesn't mean that they haven't happened. 

Even if you accept the maker talked to andraste and not the other leading theory on andraste there is the other option where there have been many others with visions from the maker and their accountings like the books providing the evidence andraste was just an apostate abomination ended up being barbqued by the chantry or used as an alternate fuel source for burning hertics and blood mages.

Not to mention that its really the guardian who is the hypocrit (and overly judgemental) when he thinks Andraste could hear the maker yet nobody else ever has been as special of a flower as her.  In the end he is just a fanatical guardian of the chantry who realizes that if the maker interacts with more than one person then their whole claim of the maker turning his back on the world falls apart, which in return shatters one of the core beliefs of the chantry that tries to give their worship of an apostate abomination validity.

The guardian is a hypocrite..........oh i get it ur an atheist. Well then lets dance

• Can u explain why he is surviving for thousands of years and no dont use oghren's theory as excuse. There is a tev. statue who says that the maker will come to light the fires......clearly proves that the maker exists it was the maker and not lyrium that gave the ashes powerful attribute.
  
  
• The chantry is not a lie, if u played legacy ull find the darkspawn saying that they went to the golden city but suddenly found that it got black. This explains the chantry theory.
  
  
• The guardian's power to see through the people's minds and reflect their pasts shows that he is no normal chantry "hypocrite" he really has maker-given powers and no he is no blood mage or he wuda used it in his fight.
  
  
• The spirits in the gaunlet tells some of the war scene and show that Andraste was really an important figure to the maker and not some hypocrite like Leliana.
  
  
• The guardian didnt think he knew that andraste spoke with the maker and on the other hand he cud easily see that Leliana wanted to make herself important by saying that she had visions of the maker. Leliana was unable to reply.
  
  
• If andraste was an abomination the last thing she wud do is rebel against the Tevinter.
  
  
• By the way, the chantry is also right about blood mages, coz these guys have the power to tear the veils.

I am patiently waiting for ur reply.

[*] The guardian is a spirit, amongst all the other spirits in the gauntlet. They do not grow old and die.A tevinter statue prove nothing at all. It is not objective.

[*]

[*]Or Cory and the Architecht were the first awakened Darkspawn, not the first darkspawn, besides he says the the city was black when they arrived, disproving that the magister tainted it.

[*]Any powerfull enough demon and spirit can sense people emotion and their mind. Just see both da:o and da2 when we are in the Fade, the demon/spirits knows exactly what makes your companions tick.

[*]

[*]They are spirits, upholding a illussion. They have a fancy story they tell you, it proves nothing.

[*]

[*]Leliana being tounge tied proves... what? That the guardian can see people weaknesses?

[*]

[*]Why should an aborimination not wish to rebel against Tevinter. Tevinter are not heaven for demons, the demons are enslaved, bound via blood magic as much as anyone else, plus if a demon got stuck in a non-magister babarian such as Andraste it didn't have so much power, why should it not wish more? Not mention she could have been a spirit abormination such as Anders and Wynne, which means that it might have been impossible for her to see the injustices in tevinter stand.

[*]Death and suffering tears the veil, blood magic can do that, but what has that to do with Andraste?

[*]no the guardian is a powerful man. As u said demons do not grow old. Remember that the guardian said that his friends who also guarded the gaunlet died. Proving that once agian the guardian has maker given powers and moreover i doubt spirits would enjoy staying in a damned gaunlet for thousands of years. And demons or spirits have no real desire to help pilgrims to take ashes to heal old nobles. about the tevinter statue i wont repeat, but ill say that she has power beyond the apparent and knows about a lot of thingsof the eluvian, she prophesised in mage origins that the maker will come to light the fires again, this proves that the maker is real and andraste is ultimately real.
[*]When we are in the fade and not being in the fade are two different things and i suggest u reconsider this opinion.
[*]Again this is ur opinion it is not implied in the game. However it is strongly implied that andraste actually talked to the maker.
[*]It proves that Leliana is a liar, u havnt got to a court yet otherwise you would have known. When Leliana realised the guardian knew th truth she got nervous and was unable to speak.
[*]Death over slavery? My, my u have a great sense of freedom havnt u. Do u really think that Abomination Andraste would have approved how mages aboms are killed frequently. I advice u listen to Legion in ME 3, ull get the answer.
[*]Moreover, ur opinion on the guardian is not implied in the game, mine is. I doubt that a spirit would fight  in a human form and not in its natural more powerful form.

[whykikyouwhy]

Spicen wrote...

You dont get it. She LIED about it, not becoz she really had a vision but because she wanted to make herself more important. That warrants that shes a goddamn hypocrite.

I get that you despise the character.

Leliana's nervousness in front of the Guardian is not some undeniable proof that she is a liar. I would imagine that when faced with a mysterious spirit who seems to look straight into one's soul, in the temple built around the ashes of a woman revered and considered most holy, a person might get a little edgy and nervous. Leliana has some shadows in her past that she would not recount or relive, she probably thinks that some darkness still clings to her heart. So to be faced with the prospect of facing and touching a holy relic when she may not feel worthy of it based on a past she has sought to move beyond and away from, is enough to give her pause, to make her question herself and all that brought her to that place.

At no point does Leliana claim to be infallible or perfect. Whether or not she lied about the vision/dream, embellished the tale, or chose to interpret it as having a deeper meaning, remains to be seen/revealed. The great thing about any companion/NPC in Dragon Age is that they are flawed and very human, given over to fears, doubts, and desires, and often in some state of flux for how they perceive the world. 

Again, it's your call to hate a character. But you haven't really shown why she is "worthy" of that hatred.

[Spicen]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Spicen wrote...

You dont get it. She LIED about it, not becoz she really had a vision but because she wanted to make herself more important. That warrants that shes a goddamn hypocrite.

I get that you despise the character.

Leliana's nervousness in front of the Guardian is not some undeniable proof that she is a liar. I would imagine that when faced with a mysterious spirit who seems to look straight into one's soul, in the temple built around the ashes of a woman revered and considered most holy, a person might get a little edgy and nervous. Leliana has some shadows in her past that she would not recount or relive, she probably thinks that some darkness still clings to her heart. So to be faced with the prospect of facing and touching a holy relic when she may not feel worthy of it based on a past she has sought to move beyond and away from, is enough to give her pause, to make her question herself and all that brought her to that place.

At no point does Leliana claim to be infallible or perfect. Whether or not she lied about the vision/dream, embellished the tale, or chose to interpret it as having a deeper meaning, remains to be seen/revealed. The great thing about any companion/NPC in Dragon Age is that they are flawed and very human, given over to fears, doubts, and desires, and often in some state of flux for how they perceive the world. 

Again, it's your call to hate a character. But you haven't really shown why she is "worthy" of that hatred.

Really u tell me what i can do to prove to u that she is a woman that needs a dagger in her back:
What i can tell is that she betrayed her last lover, she tells the warden that she loves her but she stays with the chantry grandmother instead of supporting her lover. Even if uv romanced her she will still attempt to kill u.....why coz she thinks the ashes of a woman is more important to her than her lover. Actually she never truly loves the warden, she jus wants to become famous to the chantry.

Oh and lastly she doesnt stay dead.

[whykikyouwhy]

Spicen wrote...

Really u tell me what i can do to prove to u that she is a woman that needs a dagger in her back:
What i can tell is that she betrayed her last lover, she tells the warden that she loves her but she stays with the chantry grandmother instead of supporting her lover. Even if uv romanced her she will still attempt to kill u.....why coz she thinks the ashes of a woman is more important to her than her lover. Actually she never truly loves the warden, she jus wants to become famous to the chantry.

Oh and lastly she doesnt stay dead.

Considering that I have never wanted my PC to kill a companion, and seriously doubt I will ever feel that way (since, as I stated earlier, there are other ways to deal with disliked characters), I'm probably not going to be convinced that Leliana needs to be killed. But your reasons ring hollow - granted, it's all based on your opinion, but you're trying to convince others to agree, and those reasons don't measure up.

Leliana was herself betrayed by Marjolaine. If romanced, she does tell the Warden that she loves him/her, but events in DA2 do not necessarily mean that such love is gone - we don't know the backstory behind why she and the Warden have seemingly parted ways (and parting ways could just mean physically, and temporarily - the devotion could be intact). Leliana will attack a Warden who wants to defile the ashes, sure...because the Warden is trying to desecrate a holy relic, said to have healing powers, and thus is allying his/herself with the dragon cult - all things that, in Leliana's mind, might equal betrayal. 

You've chosen to view the character from one angle, and in one light, and that's fine. But others have a different opinion and take on the matter, and thus, will continue to disagree that she needs to be killed.

[TheChris92]

Spicen wrote...


Really u tell me what i can do to prove to u that she is a woman that needs a dagger in her back:
What i can tell is that she betrayed her last lover, she tells the warden that she loves her but she stays with the chantry grandmother instead of supporting her lover. Even if uv romanced her she will still attempt to kill u.....why coz she thinks the ashes of a woman is more important to her than her lover. Actually she never truly loves the warden, she jus wants to become famous to the chantry.

Oh and lastly she doesnt stay dead.

OP. We get it already. You want to satisfy your homicidal needs, so you require the ability to kill off the characters you don't like. And no, she didn't betray Marjolaine it was the other way around. Play the game again. The end.

[berelinde]

I don't necessarily want to kill her, but I would be infinitely thankful if I had the option of never seeing, hearing, or hearing of her again. I know that my dream is a futile one. She is like herpes: annoying, insidious, and impossible to eradicate.

[Milan92]

Is this thread still going?

[Spicen]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Really u tell me what i can do to prove to u that she is a woman that needs a dagger in her back:
What i can tell is that she betrayed her last lover, she tells the warden that she loves her but she stays with the chantry grandmother instead of supporting her lover. Even if uv romanced her she will still attempt to kill u.....why coz she thinks the ashes of a woman is more important to her than her lover. Actually she never truly loves the warden, she jus wants to become famous to the chantry.

Oh and lastly she doesnt stay dead.

Considering that I have never wanted my PC to kill a companion, and seriously doubt I will ever feel that way (since, as I stated earlier, there are other ways to deal with disliked characters), I'm probably not going to be convinced that Leliana needs to be killed. But your reasons ring hollow - granted, it's all based on your opinion, but you're trying to convince others to agree, and those reasons don't measure up.

Leliana was herself betrayed by Marjolaine. If romanced, she does tell the Warden that she loves him/her, but events in DA2 do not necessarily mean that such love is gone - we don't know the backstory behind why she and the Warden have seemingly parted ways (and parting ways could just mean physically, and temporarily - the devotion could be intact). Leliana will attack a Warden who wants to defile the ashes, sure...because the Warden is trying to desecrate a holy relic, said to have healing powers, and thus is allying his/herself with the dragon cult - all things that, in Leliana's mind, might equal betrayal. 

You've chosen to view the character from one angle, and in one light, and that's fine. But others have a different opinion and take on the matter, and thus, will continue to disagree that she needs to be killed.

She doesnt need to be killed- i am asking for the option this is a rpg after all.

[Spicen]

Milan92 wrote...

Is this thread still going?

Yeah you have a prob??

[berelinde]

Milan92 wrote...

Is this thread still going?

Yup, and it will probably continue until she goes away... which will be never. Our Wardens stop the Blight and they barely ge a second mention. Leliana, the professional freeloader, shows up *everywhere*.

[Milan92]

Spicen wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Is this thread still going?

Yeah you have a prob??

Ofcourse, you want the option to kill a very popular character just for the heck of having the option. Kinda already tells me what kind of person you are.

[Spicen]

berelinde wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Is this thread still going?

Yup, and it will probably continue until she goes away... which will be never. Our Wardens stop the Blight and they barely ge a second mention. Leliana, the professional freeloader, shows up *everywhere*.

You know what you just gave gave me another good reason to kill her. Now i hope biow are looking, she needs a dagger at her back.

[Spicen]

Milan92 wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Is this thread still going?

Yeah you have a prob??

Ofcourse, you want the option to kill a very popular character just for the heck of having the option. Kinda already tells me what kind of person you are.

Dont question what person i am. Real world and RPG gaming worlds r diff

[TheChris92]

berelinde wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Is this thread still going?

Yup, and it will probably continue until she goes away... which will be never. Our Wardens stop the Blight and they barely ge a second mention. Leliana, the professional freeloader, shows up *everywhere*.

She appears for like a 2 minute cameo in the Sebastian DLC, you can leave her behind in Lothering thus hindering her from appearing for the entire game. Some people don't like Anders, yet they are forced to deal having him on the team in all of DA2. If they can deal with that why can't you deal with Leliana being present for such a short amount of time? Just asking here.

[Milan92]

Spicen wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Is this thread still going?

Yeah you have a prob??

Ofcourse, you want the option to kill a very popular character just for the heck of having the option. Kinda already tells me what kind of person you are.

Dont question what person i am. Real world and RPG gaming worlds r diff

Any sane person would never ask for a option to kill characters. Doesn't really matter if its real life or RPG. You will always make a decision based on your own personality wether you realize that or not.

[Spicen]

TheChris92 wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Is this thread still going?

Yup, and it will probably continue until she goes away... which will be never. Our Wardens stop the Blight and they barely ge a second mention. Leliana, the professional freeloader, shows up *everywhere*.

She appears for like a 2 minute cameo in the Sebastian DLC, you can leave her behind in Lothering thus hindering her from appearing for the entire game. Some people don't like Anders, yet they are forced to deal having him on the team in all of DA2. If they can deal with that why can't you deal with Leliana being present for such a short amount of time? Just asking here.

She still appears in comics, novels, etc etc....and the nightmare goes on

[Spicen]

Milan92 wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Is this thread still going?

Yeah you have a prob??

Ofcourse, you want the option to kill a very popular character just for the heck of having the option. Kinda already tells me what kind of person you are.

Dont question what person i am. Real world and RPG gaming worlds r diff

Any sane person would never ask for a option to kill characters. Doesn't really matter if its real life or RPG. You will always make a decision based on your own personality wether you realize that or not.

Really?
The last time i looked DA was a rpg franchise and shud give the players options to kill anyone they want. About leliana being popular, shes not even half as popular as morrigan is, yet players have the option to stab her. Kinda tell what kind of people they are doesnt it?

And about sanity, there are more than half a million people asking BW to have th option to kill diff NPCs, so i assume they are insane and ur the only sane man, right?

Modifié par Spicen, 28 août 2012 - 11:10 .

[berelinde]

Milan92 wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Is this thread still going?

Yeah you have a prob??

Ofcourse, you want the option to kill a very popular character just for the heck of having the option. Kinda already tells me what kind of person you are.

Leliana is *not* a popular character. She has a small, loyal following like every other character and mile-thick plot armor.

[Milan92]

Spicen wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Is this thread still going?

Yeah you have a prob??

Ofcourse, you want the option to kill a very popular character just for the heck of having the option. Kinda already tells me what kind of person you are.

Dont question what person i am. Real world and RPG gaming worlds r diff

Any sane person would never ask for a option to kill characters. Doesn't really matter if its real life or RPG. You will always make a decision based on your own personality wether you realize that or not.

Really?
The last time i looked DA was a rpg franchise and shud give the players options to kill anyone they want. About leliana being popular, shes not even half as popular as morrigan is, yet players have the option to stab her. Kinda tell what kind of people they are doesnt it?

You must have played a diffrent game then since the Morrigan in my game can't be stabbed nor killed. 

[TheChris92]

Spicen wrote...

TheChris92 wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Is this thread still going?

Yup, and it will probably continue until she goes away... which will be never. Our Wardens stop the Blight and they barely ge a second mention. Leliana, the professional freeloader, shows up *everywhere*.

She appears for like a 2 minute cameo in the Sebastian DLC, you can leave her behind in Lothering thus hindering her from appearing for the entire game. Some people don't like Anders, yet they are forced to deal having him on the team in all of DA2. If they can deal with that why can't you deal with Leliana being present for such a short amount of time? Just asking here.

She still appears in comics, novels, etc etc....and the nightmare goes on

Comic? I don't  remember her being in any comic. Asunder? She's barely in that novel, her role is much lesser than that of Shale & Wynne. Wynne, another character who can be killed in the games. But here's a newflash for you. Novel/comic canon is different from game canon. What does that mean you ask? Well, Silent Grove for instance chooses to have Alistair as king, this is the writers own personal choice to shape his story. It doesn't make it canon for the games, because it is a comic telling a side story.  And whic

[Spicen]

Milan92 wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Is this thread still going?

Yeah you have a prob??

Ofcourse, you want the option to kill a very popular character just for the heck of having the option. Kinda already tells me what kind of person you are.

Dont question what person i am. Real world and RPG gaming worlds r diff

Any sane person would never ask for a option to kill characters. Doesn't really matter if its real life or RPG. You will always make a decision based on your own personality wether you realize that or not.

Really?
The last time i looked DA was a rpg franchise and shud give the players options to kill anyone they want. About leliana being popular, shes not even half as popular as morrigan is, yet players have the option to stab her. Kinda tell what kind of people they are doesnt it?

You must have played a diffrent game then since the Morrigan in my game can't be stabbed nor killed. 

then u didnt play witch hunt dlc, really shows how little lore you know of DA world.

I advice u dont question other people's moral without accounting for all the info.

[Spicen]

TheChris92 wrote...

Spicen wrote...

TheChris92 wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Is this thread still going?

Yup, and it will probably continue until she goes away... which will be never. Our Wardens stop the Blight and they barely ge a second mention. Leliana, the professional freeloader, shows up *everywhere*.

She appears for like a 2 minute cameo in the Sebastian DLC, you can leave her behind in Lothering thus hindering her from appearing for the entire game. Some people don't like Anders, yet they are forced to deal having him on the team in all of DA2. If they can deal with that why can't you deal with Leliana being present for such a short amount of time? Just asking here.

She still appears in comics, novels, etc etc....and the nightmare goes on

Comic? I don't  remember her being in any comic. Asunder? She's barely in that novel, her role is much lesser than that of Shale & Wynne. Wynne, another character who can be killed in the games. But here's a newflash for you. Novel/comic canon is different from game canon. What does that mean you ask? Well, Silent Grove for instance chooses to have Alistair as king, this is the writers own personal choice to shape his story. It doesn't make it canon for the games, because it is a comic telling a side story.  And whic

then why doesnt she stay dead once i killed her?

[Milan92]

Spicen wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Spicen wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Is this thread still going?

Yeah you have a prob??

Ofcourse, you want the option to kill a very popular character just for the heck of having the option. Kinda already tells me what kind of person you are.

Dont question what person i am. Real world and RPG gaming worlds r diff

Any sane person would never ask for a option to kill characters. Doesn't really matter if its real life or RPG. You will always make a decision based on your own personality wether you realize that or not.

Really?
The last time i looked DA was a rpg franchise and shud give the players options to kill anyone they want. About leliana being popular, shes not even half as popular as morrigan is, yet players have the option to stab her. Kinda tell what kind of people they are doesnt it?

You must have played a diffrent game then since the Morrigan in my game can't be stabbed nor killed. 

then u didnt play witch hunt dlc, really shows how little lore you know of DA world.

I advice u dont question other people's moral without accounting for all the info.

As a matter of fact I actually did play Witch Hunt. And through out the entire DLC I have never seen the option to stab Morrigan. Your the first person who ever mention this entire option. Which makes me sure that probably barely anyone used that option to begin with..

You stabbed her did you? I'd be surprised if you didn't.

[berelinde]

Spicen wrote...

TheChris92 wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Milan92 wrote...

Is this thread still going?

Yup, and it will probably continue until she goes away... which will be never. Our Wardens stop the Blight and they barely ge a second mention. Leliana, the professional freeloader, shows up *everywhere*.

She appears for like a 2 minute cameo in the Sebastian DLC, you can leave her behind in Lothering thus hindering her from appearing for the entire game. Some people don't like Anders, yet they are forced to deal having him on the team in all of DA2. If they can deal with that why can't you deal with Leliana being present for such a short amount of time? Just asking here.

She still appears in comics, novels, etc etc....and the nightmare goes on

This, pretty much. And since the next thing is in Orlais, does anybody really think she won't bet shoved down our throats *again*?

The difference with Anders is that you can dismiss him and he goes away until the end, at which point, you have two opportunities to kill him. Devs have also stated that he says dead. You had two chances tto kill Leliana in DAO, but she comes back in every DA titke in any media regardless.