766 réponses à ce sujet

[The Elder King]

TheChris92 wrote...

berelinde wrote...

bleetman wrote...

You know, if you really can't stand Leliana, you could always just not recruit her. Or send her away at any point. Or ignore her the entire time. Y'know, because she's not mandatory in any way, shape or form to DA:O's story

Of course! Many people do avoid recruiting her. The problem is that she will still show up in DA2, Asunder, etc. OP is stating that if she does show up again in DA3, he or she wants the chance to kill her once and for all.

Asunder is irrelevant since game-canon is different from book canon, as Wynne also appears in that book despite how her fate might turn out in Origins.

Wynne was already retconned as alive in Awakening, I think. And Awakening and DA2 are canon, so both Leliana and Wynne are alive. And anyway, Asunder's events will be canon in the next game, in my opinion. The book covered important plots, that will be present in the next game, even as main plots.
It'll be the same as some (if not all) of the ME books in ME2 and ME3. They could make some codex entries and/or make some NPC talk about the events of Asunder.

just to clarify, I don't hate Leliana, I like her. I'm only stating my opinion about Asunder.

Modifié par hhh89, 28 août 2012 - 02:36 .

[Emzamination]

bleetman wrote...

Based on...?

The fact that they're there and she's not

Cutlass Jack wrote...


Who said Leliana didn't come
back from her trip as well? That she couldnt have taken multiple trips?
Just like Alistair and Zevran did in DA2.

And I disagree that the
Warden's business is even slightly more important once the Blight and
Awakening were over. He should have a good 500 years or so of free time
available, during which, events on the surface world might seem a tad
more pressing.

It's likely but ultimately it seems the trips stopped

The warden was fighting an army of cockroach darkspawn in awakening which took far greater precedence over her spying on the circles for the divine.The wardens business is wrapped up in old gods while she's trying to stop a mortal rebellion.

As flemeth once said "I laugh at a world full of stupid mortals who ignore the blights evil to chase mortal goals"

[TheChris92]

hhh89 wrote...

TheChris92 wrote...

berelinde wrote...

bleetman wrote...

You know, if you really can't stand Leliana, you could always just not recruit her. Or send her away at any point. Or ignore her the entire time. Y'know, because she's not mandatory in any way, shape or form to DA:O's story

Of course! Many people do avoid recruiting her. The problem is that she will still show up in DA2, Asunder, etc. OP is stating that if she does show up again in DA3, he or she wants the chance to kill her once and for all.

Asunder is irrelevant since game-canon is different from book canon, as Wynne also appears in that book despite how her fate might turn out in Origins.

Wynne was already retconned as alive in Awakening, I think. And Awakening and DA2 are canon, so both Leliana and Wynne are alive. And anyway, Asunder's events will be canon in the next game, in my opinion. The book covered important plots, that will be present in the next game, even as main plots.
It'll be the same as some (if not all) of the ME books in ME2 and ME3. They could make some codex entries and/or make some NPC talk about the events of Asunder.

She was? I do seem to remember her not appearing in Awakening at all, if I do not bring her along from the Tower of Magi. I could be wrong about that though. The events of the comic book has Alistair as a Grey Warden (This is not a universal canon, only canon to the author because he wanted to work on a story based on this character), the same with the novels. The novels are very careful about not mentioning core things from the games, like the gender of the Champion and the Warden etc etc. I don't see them becoming canon anytime soon. Mass Effect was a trilogy, which Dragon Age isn't so I think there's a big difference here.

Modifié par TheChris92, 28 août 2012 - 02:41 .

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...


It's likely but ultimately it seems the trips stopped

The warden was fighting an army of cockroach darkspawn in awakening which took far greater precedence over her spying on the circles for the divine.The wardens business is wrapped up in old gods while she's trying to stop a mortal rebellion.

As flemeth once said "I laugh at a world full of stupid mortals who ignore the blights evil to chase mortal goals"

And Lelian would know about the returning darkspawn in Amaranthine at the speed of light because? Does she have supernatural powers?
And I'd say that  stopping the hostilities between mages and templars is really important. The war between them, with the separation of the templars from the Chantry and the mages from the Circle system would lead Thedas in chaos, with the Andrastian nation vulnerable to the qunari invasion.

[brushyourteeth]

If I could chime in real quick and say something...

I'm uncomfortable with the idea that anyone in these forms feels like they can decide what "genuine" femininity does and does not look like. Leliana is Leliana. And she's a woman. You do not get to decide whether she is, or isn't feminine based on the fact that you don't like her. The same goes for Isabela, or for Aveline, or even for Shale for that matter. You can't pigeonhole femininity. If you can, so can others, and "others" become the people who can define right or wrong conduct for women. So instead of accusing a woman of being disingenuously feminine, realize that she is by nature feminine because she's a woman, and get right down to what actually bothers you about her instead.

Also, I've no problem with the murder knife. The idea of killing one of my pals in DAIII might make my heart a little sad, but others play differently than I do. An option not taken is still worth having because of the player agency it allows.

[berelinde]

TheChris92 wrote...

Asunder is irrelevant since game-canon is different from book canon, as Wynne also appears in that book despite how her fate might turn out in Origins.

Canon or not, non-game media contribute to character spamming. When you can't avoid reference to the character without avoiding the brand, that's too much.

As for whether or not the novels are canon, do you expect to see Wynne in DA3? Is this because you have read Asunder?

Actually, I don't rabidly hate Leliana, despite previous posts. I acknowledge her faults and I do dislike her, but without the overexposure to her, I probably could have gone on quietly disliking her in private. It's like my fiance and broccoli. As a kid, he had no particular aversion to the vegetable, but then he became a diabetic. They didn't have fast-acting insulin back then, so low-carbohydrate vegetables constituted the bulk of his diet. He ate a lot of broccoli. Indifference turned into active dislike. Now, I enjoy broccoli. I eat it whenever I can, but if I try to serve it for dinner, I get a lot of complaints about how I never serve anything but broccoli and if he never had to eat broccoli again, it would be too soon.

[Cultist]

Can you PLEASE stop overquotation! That's annoying to no end.

[The Elder King]

TheChris92 wrote...




She was? I do seem to remember her not appearing in Awakening at all, if I do not bring her along from the Tower of Magi. I could be wrong about that though. The events of the comic book has Alistair as a Grey Warden (This is not a universal canon, only canon to the author because he wanted to work on a story based on this character), the same with the novels. The novels are very careful about not mentioning core things from the games, like the gender of the Champion and the Warden etc etc. I don't see them becoming canon anytime soon. Mass Effect was a trilogy, which Dragon Age isn't so I think there's a big difference here.

Wynne would be present in Awakening if you have her as companion and killed her in the SA quest. I don't know if she'll appear in Awakening if she wasn't a companion, but she was certainly alive, so she could be present in Asunder.
I'm not saying that the comic book will be canon. I'm saying that the books will be canon, like the one in which the Architect is present. Maybe Asunder will not be completely canon (I don't know if in Asunder Wynne and Shale talk about being the Warden's companion, while they mighy have not be), but the major events, adn the characters present in those events will (probably) be canon.

Modifié par hhh89, 28 août 2012 - 02:46 .

[Emzamination]

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...


It's likely but ultimately it seems the trips stopped

The warden was fighting an army of cockroach darkspawn in awakening which took far greater precedence over her spying on the circles for the divine.The wardens business is wrapped up in old gods while she's trying to stop a mortal rebellion.

As flemeth once said "I laugh at a world full of stupid mortals who ignore the blights evil to chase mortal goals"

And Lelian would know about the returning darkspawn in Amaranthine at the speed of light because? Does she have supernatural powers?
And I'd say that  stopping the hostilities between mages and templars is really important. The war between them, with the separation of the templars from the Chantry and the mages from the Circle system would lead Thedas in chaos, with the Andrastian nation vulnerable to the qunari invasion.

She would of known if she hadn't forsaken her lover to play errand girl to the divine

The mage templar war is important but rumble between gods is just far more important

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...


She would of known if she hadn't forsaken her lover to play errand girl to the divine

The mage templar war is important but rumble between gods is just far more important

The Blight was over, she could go whenever she wants. I don't like the fact that she joins the Chantry regardless if she's hardened of not, but she was free to go in Orlais. Without the Architect's intervention, the darkspwan would've fled in the underground, so no one could've thought that there were still problems. The Warden remains in Ferelden and went to Amaranthine because it was his duty as a Warden to remain and watch over, and because later he was ordered to. Leliana doesn't have the same duty.
And about the importance of the mage/templar war and the Blight, as I said, the darkspwan was supposed to return underground, so resolving the mage/templar hostilies was more important at the moment.

[TheChris92]

berelinde wrote...
As for whether or not the novels are canon, do you expect to see Wynne in DA3? Is this because you have read Asunder?

Actually, I don't rabidly hate Leliana, despite previous posts. I acknowledge her faults and I do dislike her, but without the overexposure to her, I probably could have gone on quietly disliking her in private. 

Maybe, maybe not. The same can be said of the comic books. Varric, Isabela and Alistair appears in them, should we then expect them to show up in future game titles? I don't know, really. When I'm saying that the novels aren't canon, I am of course talking about specific things from the games, like how Alistair is king in the recent comic book series. Gaider himself said there was a difference between book and game canon, now I could probably look for a quote from him on the forums but it's been a while since he was here. So I can't really prove it, but I remember him saying that. We both promised to let this discussion, so let's try again now.

I probably could have gone on quietly disliking her in private.

Then why didn't you? Leave her behind in Lothering, ignore the fact that she shows up in Kirkwall and don't let 5 minutes of a small cameo kill you inside. I'm sure people who dislike Anders would do the same. Not me. I don't really dislike any of the characters that much at all. We're done now.

Modifié par TheChris92, 28 août 2012 - 02:59 .

[bleetman]

Emzamination wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Based on...?

The fact that they're there and she's not

When is this? In Awakening, where only Alistair shows up if he's king and otherwise has nothing to do with his relationship status, and immediately leaves again? In DA2, where neither of them appear with the Warden at their side?

Hell, if I wanted to get picky about details, Alistair has far more chances to walk out on a relationship than Leliana does, and isn't shy of taking them. I don't remember Leliana abandoning the group and becoming a drunk because I opted not to kill Majorlaine on the spot, for instance. Some loyalty.

berelinde wrote...

Of course! Many people do avoid recruiting her. The problem is that she will still show up in DA2, Asunder, etc. OP is stating that if she does show up again in DA3, he or she wants the chance to kill her once and for all.

She shows up in DA2 for about three minutes combined. That doesn't really justify the amount of "I WISH SHE WOULD JUST DIE" that's thrown her way.

Modifié par bleetman, 28 août 2012 - 03:08 .

[TheChris92]

Wynne would be present in Awakening if you have her as companion and killed her in the SA quest. I don't know if she'll appear in Awakening if she wasn't a companion, but she was certainly alive, so she could be present in Asunder.
I'm not saying that the comic book will be canon. I'm saying that the books will be canon, like the one in which the Architect is present. Maybe Asunder will not be completely canon (I don't know if in Asunder Wynne and Shale talk about being the Warden's companion, while they mighy have not be), but the major events, adn the characters present in those events will (probably) be canon.

The Calling's purpose was to provide backstory, not expand upon existing events. But yeah I get what you mean now. Thanks for elaborating! 

[Emzamination]

hhh89 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...


She would of known if she hadn't forsaken her lover to play errand girl to the divine

The mage templar war is important but rumble between gods is just far more important

The Blight was over, she could go whenever she wants. I don't like the fact that she joins the Chantry regardless if she's hardened of not, but she was free to go in Orlais. Without the Architect's intervention, the darkspwan would've fled in the underground, so no one could've thought that there were still problems. The Warden remains in Ferelden and went to Amaranthine because it was his duty as a Warden to remain and watch over, and because later he was ordered to. Leliana doesn't have the same duty.
And about the importance of the mage/templar war and the Blight, as I said, the darkspwan was supposed to return underground, so resolving the mage/templar hostilies was more important at the moment.

You can not just walk off and leave your significant other as you please, blight or no.Where the warden goes, his/her lover is obligated to follow if not for combat purposes than morale.Yes but what could've and should've happened didn't stop them from happening.The failure was in the assumption that the darkspawn would be compelled to follow a certain order.I bet humanity we'll be more vigilant during blight 6.

As flemeth once said "Be always aware or is it oblivious? I can never remember"

[Emzamination]

bleetman wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Based on...?

The fact that they're there and she's not

When is this? In Awakening, where only Alistair shows up if he's king and otherwise has nothing to do with his relationship status? In DA2, where neither of them appear with the Warden at their side?

Da2

Zevran: "I'm sorry isbella, I think my warden would be a put out" "I have a warden to return to, it has been far too long"

Awakening Alistair : "I'm lucky to be married to an indestructible goddess" "Now let me say goodbye before I forget *kissy scene*"

Warden Alistair: "This belongs to the love of my life, she finds them everywhere she goes"

King Alistair: "Time to get back to the old ball and chain" 

Modifié par Emzamination, 28 août 2012 - 03:09 .

[berelinde]

brushyourteeth wrote...

If I could chime in real quick and say something...

I'm uncomfortable with the idea that anyone in these forms feels like they can decide what "genuine" femininity does and does not look like. Leliana is Leliana. And she's a woman. You do not get to decide whether she is, or isn't feminine based on the fact that you don't like her. The same goes for Isabela, or for Aveline, or even for Shale for that matter. You can't pigeonhole femininity. If you can, so can others, and "others" become the people who can define right or wrong conduct for women. So instead of accusing a woman of being disingenuously feminine, realize that she is by nature feminine because she's a woman, and get right down to what actually bothers you about her instead.

Also, I've no problem with the murder knife. The idea of killing one of my pals in DAIII might make my heart a little sad, but others play differently than I do. An option not taken is still worth having because of the player agency it allows.

No, neither I nor anybody else has the right to decide whether certain traits constitute genuine femininity. I never said that they did (or did not).

Personally, I find Leliana's obsession with shoes and clothing disenchanting. Her behavior and conversation don't engage my interest, but I do know real world women who obsess about shoes and clothes, too, and I wouldn't say they aren't women. Personally, I don't think the emphasis on the pretty is entirely healthy or that encouraging conventional or restrictive gender roles is beneficial, but society is still doing it.

Anyway, the specific comment that started this particular tangent was my comment that I found Leliana excessively girly. I do. As a person with a close friend who is struggling with the emotional turmoil of being intersexed, I'm probably more sensitive to the depiction of gender in fiction than is good for me.

[bleetman]

So, basically, their leaving to Do Other Things is somehow not the same as Leliana Doing Other Things because, y'know, reasons.

I see.

Emzamination wrote...

You can not just walk off and leave your significant other as you please, blight or no.Where the warden goes, his/her lover is obligated to follow if not for combat purposes than morale.

Funny. I distinctly remember Alistair doing just that for no other reason than because I opted not to run Loghain through with a sword.

But no yeah, he's totally a paragon of loyalty.

I suppose I could also ask why Leliana is obligated to follow the Warden, but the Warden doesn't have to accompany her in her Kirkwall-y adventures, but I suspect I wouldn't care for the answer.

Modifié par bleetman, 28 août 2012 - 03:17 .

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...


You can not just walk off and leave your significant other as you please, blight or no.Where the warden goes, his/her lover is obligated to follow if not for combat purposes than morale.Yes but what could've and should've happened didn't stop them from happening.The failure was in the assumption that the darkspawn would be compelled to follow a certain order.I bet humanity we'll be more vigilant during blight 6.

I don't agree one bit with this. A person isn't obligated to follow their lower anywere, especially if they have  some things to do. They have to follow their own path, and not depend completely on another person.
Leliana stayed in Ferelden for a while, than she decided to follow her own path. Why would she have to be obligated in following the Warden? She (or Zevran, or Alistair) aren't some puppets that should follow their master. They have their own dreams, goals to follow.
Second,I want to point out that Alistair, Zevran and Morrigan did the same thing, with the exception of King Alistair (which have more or less a valide reason to not join the Warden in Amaranthine, but he could've just left the kingdom to Eamon and go to Amaranthine, if he wanted). So I don't understand why you didn't put the other three LI in the same position of Leliana.

[Cutlass Jack]

Emzamination wrote...

The warden was fighting an army of cockroach darkspawn in awakening which took far greater precedence over her spying on the circles for the divine.The wardens business is wrapped up in old gods while she's trying to stop a mortal rebellion.

As flemeth once said "I laugh at a world full of stupid mortals who ignore the blights evil to chase mortal goals"

Yeah but you skipped over the part when I mentioned after it was dealt with. Awakening had an ending. The warden was no longer dealing with them.

He (or she) saved Ferelden twice from the darkspawn in one lifetime. More than most Wardens ever do. He earned a little R&R dealing with something a little more 'mortal.'

Refer to your own quote. He already dealt with the blight's evil, he can chase a mortal goal or two. Not to mention that he spent most of his time sticking his nose in such things while actually dealing with the blight.

It doesn't mean he has to, but mine certainly would. He never wanted to be a warden, and Leliana is not one. He wouldn't force that life on anyone.

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...



Da2

Zevran: "I'm sorry isbella, I think my warden would be a put out" "I have a warden to return to, it has been far too long"

Awakening Alistair : "I'm lucky to be married to an indestructible goddess" "Now let me say goodbye before I forget *kissy scene*"

Warden Alistair: "This belongs to the love of my life, she finds them everywhere she goes"

King Alistair: "Time to get back to the old ball and chain" 

They're still not on the Warden's side, even Alistair as a Warden. And I remember that Leliana said something about the Warden too, if you romanced her.

[berelinde]

TheChris92 wrote...
 I'm sure people who dislike Anders would do the same. 

You're joking, right?

On any given day, there are probably 50 "I loved killing Anders" posts (a conservative estimate). Many of them go on to say how they have been looking forward to doing so since the first time he opened his mouth, or even since Awakening. Really, if you want people sickened by Leliana to just ignore her, you had better use some other example. The forums would literally burst into flames if dead!Anders came back.

At this point, we've seen enough Leliana. She had her time as a companion. She had her time as the protagonist. She had her cameos, her guest apperances, and her correspondence. Her appearance in the next thing would really be too much. Unless it's as a villain. That would actually make good RP sense for those who choose to oppose the chantry, and if she is as skilled as her fans say, she might even merit "boss battle" status.

[The Elder King]

berelinde wrote...

TheChris92 wrote...
 I'm sure people who dislike Anders would do the same. 

You're joking, right?

On any given day, there are probably 50 "I loved killing Anders" posts (a conservative estimate). Many of them go on to say how they have been looking forward to doing so since the first time he opened his mouth, or even since Awakening. Really, if you want people sickened by Leliana to just ignore her, you had better use some other example. The forums would literally burst into flames if dead!Anders came back.

At this point, we've seen enough Leliana. She had her time as a companion. She had her time as the protagonist. She had her cameos, her guest apperances, and her correspondence. Her appearance in the next thing would really be too much. Unless it's as a villain. That would actually make good RP sense for those who choose to oppose the chantry, and if she is as skilled as her fans say, she might even merit "boss battle" status.

I want to see new character and new companions, so I'd be quite fine with no Leliana in DA3.
About Anders, my opinion of his return in DA3 is the same as my opinion of Leliana's and the very Anders's return in DA2. I want that dead characters stay dead,no matter how much I loved or hated the character. If Varric for some choices could've been dead at the end in DA2, I wouldn't want him to return in DA3 as canon, even if he's one of my favourite companions.

[Spicen]

Ivandra Ceruden wrote...

@Spicen: u no type correct English?

Excuse me, i can spell correct intricate gorgeous and beautiful english if i wanted to.
This is a discussion forum so i tend to try and make the replies as quickly and shortly as possible. I couldn't care less of how many mistakes i make.

[Spicen]

jlb524 wrote...

Spicen wrote...
So yeah, i killed leliana in my DAO playthrough however that hary queen was kept alive by bioware(possibly pinches of andraste's ashes were dropped on leliana accidentally) becoz of canon. Please BW give the fans a chance to finally put the harpy queen to bed?!?

Every time you misspell, the Maker resurrects a Leliana. 

Are you kidding?
This is a forum, i couldn't care less if i make mistakes. It is not an English Language examination.

If i make mistakes i hope you can forgive me, my respected English genius. your knowledge of english will overwhelm even the philosophical intelligence of Shakespeare. The beauty of your enlish has no reply really. Shakespeare must be distressed in heaven that you are going to break all his records and establish a new dawn for the language known as English.

I salute you, savant "jlb524". I hope one day you position in the history of Englisg Language is so high that no one will be able to match your intelligence.