264 réponses à ce sujet

[Jadebaby]

Eterna5 wrote...

Just because Shepard was able to make peace doesn't prove the Catalyst wrong. Organics will just make more synthetics that will accomplish what the Geth did not, that's why he says "The chaos will return"mbecause it will.

No, because if the Geth are around then they can influence other synthetics to prevent this from happening.

You could say that the other synthetics could persuade the Geth to see things differently, but from a writing perspective we already have a variable in the story to stop this from happening.

Reaper code.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

You know what annoys me the most? People telling me that my interpretation of my ending is "wrong" and "immoral". Stay classy.

[Jadebaby]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

You know what annoys me the most? People telling me that my interpretation of my ending is "wrong" and "immoral". Stay classy.

All the endings are wrong and immoral, so technically they are right.

[shepskisaac]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

No, you are,
Destroy because the problem will occur again. Not because it is inevitable, but because of your action in choosing destroy.

So if Destroy will result in another conflict (because of Destroy), how again it is ANY kind of solution for the Catalyst?

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Control because this new Catalyst isn't Shepard. Therefore you have no real control of what IT does or doesn't do. Thus this new catalyst falling back into a logically-flawed loop could happen again.

IT is created based on Shepard and Shepard's thoughts and personality guide IT. As we can clearly see,

Jade8aby88 wrote...
Basically, if the Catalyst's logic is flawed, you cannot pick either 3 of these options as they will be equally flawed as a result.

You're just looking for reason to equate all 3 options as bad because it didn't get happy ending. Nothing to do with constructive discussion.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 24 août 2012 - 09:14 .

[3DandBeyond]

Eterna5 wrote...

Just because Shepard was able to make peace doesn't prove the Catalyst wrong. Organics will just make more synthetics that will accomplish what the Geth did not, that's why he says "The chaos will return"mbecause it will.

Well, chaos isn't necessarily bad nor is conflict.  Of course it will occur.  But the kid relegates it to one specific kind only.  In fact, more organics are killed or denied life in ME by organics and the geth were not killer robots seeking to kill the quarians-the opposite was true.

Do you argue with your siblings or spouse or friends?  Should someone step in always and stop that or isn't it just possible that sometimes conflict is good?  Well, I'll answer that-sometimes it is.  It can help you to establish your values, it can help you to even forcefully understand others and their ideas.  It can be constructive or destructive, and it should not always be avoided.  If we're mature about it we find ways to rise above or get beyond it.  The kid would avoid it always if possible.  And he sees it as always coming from killer robots.  It is just possible that synthetic life if left alone would or could evolve in many different ways, some very good and some not so good, but if you never let it happen, you will never know the good thing that could be.

The catalyst is wrong.  He's wrong exactly because Shepard could solve the problem, no matter how it was solved.  And he's wrong because it's not for him to decide.  And he's wrong because he has a narrow-minded view of just what kind of beings synthetics will become.  Imagination says that they could be just as varied and good or evil as people are.  They could live completely within a hive mind and never want to be mobile units.  They could model themselves off of other things besides organics and bipeds.  But if they are never allowed to be then we will never know.  And that is a frontier for people to determine and be adult about and work together to confront, not some alien AI with one single narrow view.  The lesson of EDI and the geth was that synthetics can be unexpected and are not as the star kid sees them.  I have no idea why they were ignored in the end.

[AresKeith]

IsaacShep wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

No, you are,
Destroy because the problem will occur again. Not because it is inevitable, but because of your action in choosing destroy.

So if Destroy will result in another conflict (because of Destroy), how again it is ANY kind of solution for the Catalyst?

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Control because this new Catalyst isn't Shepard. Therefore you have no real control of what IT does or doesn't do. Thus this new catalyst falling back into a logically-flawed loop could happen again.

IT is created based on Shepard and Shepard's thoughts and personality guide IT. As we can clearly see,

Jade8aby88 wrote...
Basically, if the Catalyst's logic is flawed, you cannot pick either 3 of these options as they will be equally flawed as a result.

You're just looking for reason to equate all 3 options as bad because it didn't get happy ending. Nothing to do with constructive discussion.

1, they already said that its a temperary solution

2. the new Catalyst is based on Shepard's memory thats it, everything else is gone and as soon as another conflict starts it'll go back to Reaping again

3.  Why do you keep coming at people about a Happy Ending, no matter what kind of ending we want, there is no Happy ending. There are Planets burning, millions of lives are already dead, the only kind of ending there is will be a bittersweet ending

[Epic777]

Eterna5 wrote...

Just because Shepard was able to make
peace doesn't prove the Catalyst wrong. Organics will just make more
synthetics that will accomplish what the Geth did not, that's why he
says "The chaos will return"mbecause it will.

Then the choice should never have been. Nothing is worse than a player's choice being directly invalidated and the potential Geth Quarian peace is directly invalidated.  A big part of why people enjoyed the Geth-Quarian and Genophage arcs in
me3 was the way your choice played out. Your choices in me2 mattered.
Didn't save legion and tali? No Geth Quarian peace. Ironically if the player was forced to chose one, the Catalyst's argument would have been far stronger.

[Hudathan]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

PSS - Don't say "CSD aren't starchild's options, it's the crucibles, he just presents them." That's actually bs, all three options are connected to the citadel. The crucible is just the battery source to power these choices. Citadel is 'apart' of starchild.

The options presented in the story are only possible once the Crucible was added to the Citadel. The final choices are a result of the Crucible's construction and function, not the Catalyst's wishes. The Crucible takes advantage of the Citadel's ability to coordinate the relays in order to create the chain reaction big enough to cover all Reaper inhabited systems. That was mentioned by the Prothean VI well ahead of the Catalyst conversation.

You can debate whether or not the Catalyst was truthful or not at the end but that doesn't change the fact that the Crucible is what alters the variables in this case and creates the new possibilities.

[Jadebaby]

IsaacShep wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

No, you are,
Destroy because the problem will occur again. Not because it is inevitable, but because of your action in choosing destroy.

So if Destroy will result in another conflict (because of Destroy), how again it is ANY kind of solution for the Catalyst?

It isn't, that's the point. Because the problem is in the logic, it's solutions are equally flawed. I've said this. It just believes it is right. Like Legion said in ME2, " .0001 to .0002". There was never a solution needed. Therefore any choice that agrees with this logic, will inevitably impose this logic.

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Control because this new Catalyst isn't Shepard. Therefore you have no real control of what IT does or doesn't do. Thus this new catalyst falling back into a logically-flawed loop could happen again.

IT is created based on Shepard and Shepard's thoughts and personality guide IT. As we can clearly see.

That's supposing that will last, you cannot prove that without using headcanon. However, there is more information in the game to suggest that total control is not possible. You are also a collective intelligence of all the Reapers aswell.

Jade8aby88 wrote...
Basically, if the Catalyst's logic is flawed, you cannot pick either 3 of these options as they will be equally flawed as a result.

You're just looking for reason to equate all 3 options as bad because it didn't get happy ending. Nothing to do with constructive discussion.

It's funny that I get this on the posts where I am actually trying to analyze the endings. Never change BSN.

[LilLino]

So you're saying that future AIs will hate us for choosing destroy?
I guess you didn't consider that Shepard doesn't need to tell everyone about 3 choices he had, it's not like anyone would believe him that he didn't want to become a God. Maybe only closest friends.

Honestly destroy is the only ending where in the future we can co-exist with synthetics on our own terms. Hell, we can even try to rebuild the Geth as a sign of good will.

[AngryFrozenWater]

To the OP: The brat presents the three options as solutions to its hypothetical threat. Therefor the solution must at least do *something* about that perceived problem. In this case it is genocide of synthetics. It is not a permanent solution, but it does delay the development of synthetics.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 24 août 2012 - 10:58 .

[iSpaceMarine]

 I think it's safe to assume that the Geth don't die and that the Starchild is just a lying little brat who doesn't want the Reapers destroyed. There's three things that prove this:

1. Shepard, who's vital organs work thanks to synthetic implants, breathes.
2. EDI can come out of the ship. (If you think it's a bug, see next reason)
3. Merizan says on her twitter it's not a bug and Geth survive.

EDIT: Found source to Merizan's statements on Twitter and according to her; Shepard's still on the Citadel, only the Reaper Tech part of the Geth is destroyed and EDI lives since she's not Reaper Tech.

tl;dr: Only Reaper Tech is destroyed.

http://img849.images...81/51729254.jpg 
http://cs5928.userap.../x_8618bc37.jpg 
http://t2.gstatic.co...keHTW53NQFDZG9w 
http://img844.images...120409at115.png 
AND FINALLY:

http://img607.images...82/18299916.jpg 

Modifié par iSpaceMarine, 24 août 2012 - 10:49 .

[Jadebaby]

Hudathan wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

PSS - Don't say "CSD aren't starchild's options, it's the crucibles, he just presents them." That's actually bs, all three options are connected to the citadel. The crucible is just the battery source to power these choices. Citadel is 'apart' of starchild.

The options presented in the story are only possible once the Crucible was added to the Citadel. The final choices are a result of the Crucible's construction and function, not the Catalyst's wishes.

No, the Crucible is the power source. The Citadel is what holds the key. The contraptions used to change the variables in each choice comes from the Citadel itself, with the Crucible acting to power each choice.

This is evident in control and destroy, while in synthesis it appears to only require the energy from the crucible However, that's not to say that there isn't other technology situated inside the Citadel Tower itself, that would act to multiply the DNA of the person that jumps into the beam, with The Crucible just being left to disperse it through the network.
Either way, the Protheans may have believed The Crucible was what held the variables, but at the end we clearly see them coming from the Citadel itself. The Catalyst, in this regard, is situated there as an overseer to these three functions.

The Crucible takes advantage of the Citadel's ability to coordinate the relays in order to create the chain reaction big enough to cover all Reaper inhabited systems. That was mentioned by the Prothean VI well ahead of the Catalyst conversation.

No, the Citadel itself does this, the Crucible just powers it. Citadel is the car, Crucible is the petrol.

You can debate whether or not the Catalyst was truthful or not at the end but that doesn't change the fact that the Crucible is what alters the variables in this case and creates the new possibilities.

The Crucible alters the variables by allowing the variables to happen.

[LilLino]

iSpaceMarine wrote...

 I think it's safe to assume that the Geth don't die and that the Starchild is just a lying little brat who doesn't want the Reapers destroyed. There's three things that prove this:

1. Shepard, who's vital organs work thanks to synthetic implants, breathes.
2. EDI can come out of the ship. (If you think it's a bug, see next reason)
3. Merizan says on her twitter it's not a bug and Geth survive.

EDIT: Found source to Merizan's statements on Twitter and according to her; Shepard's still on the Citadel, only the Reaper Tech part of the Geth is destroyed and EDI lives since she's not Reaper Tech.

tl;dr: Only Reaper Tech is destroyed.

What the hell are you talking about? EDi's name is on memorial wall and there are no Geth slides in destroy. Stop talking bs. They die, Starchild is not a lier, it tells plain truth.

[iSpaceMarine]

LilLino wrote...

iSpaceMarine wrote...

 I think it's safe to assume that the Geth don't die and that the Starchild is just a lying little brat who doesn't want the Reapers destroyed. There's three things that prove this:

1. Shepard, who's vital organs work thanks to synthetic implants, breathes.
2. EDI can come out of the ship. (If you think it's a bug, see next reason)
3. Merizan says on her twitter it's not a bug and Geth survive.

EDIT: Found source to Merizan's statements on Twitter and according to her; Shepard's still on the Citadel, only the Reaper Tech part of the Geth is destroyed and EDI lives since she's not Reaper Tech.

tl;dr: Only Reaper Tech is destroyed.

What the hell are you talking about? EDi's name is on memorial wall and there are no Geth slides in destroy. Stop talking bs. They die, Starchild is not a lier, it tells plain truth.

Forgot to put sources. Check the links now.

[Jadebaby]

LilLino wrote...

So you're saying that future AIs will hate us for choosing destroy?
I guess you didn't consider that Shepard doesn't need to tell everyone about 3 choices he had, it's not like anyone would believe him that he didn't want to become a God. Maybe only closest friends.

Honestly destroy is the only ending where in the future we can co-exist with synthetics on our own terms. Hell, we can even try to rebuild the Geth as a sign of good will.

Rebuilding the Geth may be part of the problem. What would it tell them of how organics view them if they can just "erase" them and rebuild them again. That would encourage them to seek more dependancy from organics and eventually oppose.

You make a good point on the 3 choices part. Although the evidence is still there on the Citadel for everyone to see. This is backed up by the breath scene happening on the Citadel.

[ghost9191]

well actually i want to know where these facts are that future machines will rise agaainst organics because of tht choice. it was made by one man or woman, and machines use logic , usually cold truth. destroy is the right choice, the few for the many. . machines would probably see that and geth can be replaced,. rebuilt . death has different consequences for them

but it is crap, it was added on there to deter us from the choice as if shepard dying was not enough. even though shep dying in control was enough.

[chasemme]

We'll assume that we're not JUST picking destroy to keep Shepard alive, because the cost to save oneself being the loss of a friend and a sentient race is actually an interesting dilemma that doesn't really need discussing here.

Most people tend to disagree with the Catalyst's statement regarding synthetics rebelling based on the Geth and EDI. Which is why destroy comes off so callous and brutal, since they both want cooperation. But that sample size is low, and if you take into account the protheans AI problems and the reapers themselves in regards to which AI examples decided to kill organics, it's a low sample size with a 50/50 split.

Destroy is a leap of faith. Without eliminating the current synthetics, it's much easier to object to the catalyst since we lucked out with "good" AI that don't seem to want us dead. I took the point to be that it's a gamble as to whether or not future AI will be as peaceful.

Obviously it's just my take on the matter.

[Jadebaby]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

To the OP: The brat presents the three options as solutions to its hypothetical threat.

If it's a hypothetical threat then there is even more reason to not need a solution
 

Therefor the solution must at least do *something* about that perceived problem.

You're right, it is does something about the perceived threat. But the perceived threat in this case is the Reapers

In this case its genocide of synthetics. It is not a permanent solution, but it does delay the development of synthetics.

Which is succumbing to his logic, thus proving his point that they cannot exist.
 
Instead of refusing to co-operate, at all, with his logic. Period.

[ghost9191]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

To the OP: The brat presents the three options as solutions to its hypothetical threat.

If it's a hypothetical threat then there is even more reason to not need a solution
 

Therefor the solution must at least do *something* about that perceived problem.

You're right, it is does something about the perceived threat. But the perceived threat in this case is the Reapers

In this case its genocide of synthetics. It is not a permanent solution, but it does delay the development of synthetics.

Which is succumbing to his logic, thus proving his point that they cannot exist.
 
Instead of refusing to co-operate, at all, with his logic. Period.

hmm funny, i thought i destroyed the reapers ( and geth ) in order to stop the reaper threat, which was the only threat atm, wasn't going to just stand there like a retard wondering where his ice cream went in 100degree weather. But take action. save lives. not "succumb to a ai's logic. considering that the only plan it endores is synthesis

sure the geth get destroying, but as legion said, death has different consequences for them. so who knows how it will affect them. if it even does. considering the geth are software not hardware, i mean does the beam of magic delete all files or something?


i mean which option does what the catalyst wants, and has shepard succumbing to it's logic. the one that blows them up l., or the one that allows the reapers to continue reaping. or synthesis the one that it has tried before

Modifié par ghost9191, 24 août 2012 - 11:09 .

[Mavqt]

iSpaceMarine wrote...

 I think it's safe to assume that the Geth don't die and that the Starchild is just a lying little brat who doesn't want the Reapers destroyed. There's three things that prove this:

1. Shepard, who's vital organs work thanks to synthetic implants, breathes.
2. EDI can come out of the ship. (If you think it's a bug, see next reason)
3. Merizan says on her twitter it's not a bug and Geth survive.

EDIT: Found source to Merizan's statements on Twitter and according to her; Shepard's still on the Citadel, only the Reaper Tech part of the Geth is destroyed and EDI lives since she's not Reaper Tech.

tl;dr: Only Reaper Tech is destroyed.

http://img849.images...81/51729254.jpg 
http://cs5928.userap.../x_8618bc37.jpg 
http://t2.gstatic.co...keHTW53NQFDZG9w 
http://img844.images...120409at115.png 
AND FINALLY:

http://img607.images...82/18299916.jpg 

Doesn't high EMS Destroy target Reaper tech only? Otherwise wouldn't biotic implants also be buggered, aswell as Omni-tools and the rest.

Modifié par mavqt, 24 août 2012 - 11:09 .

[Jadebaby]

ghost9191 wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

To the OP: The brat presents the three options as solutions to its hypothetical threat.

If it's a hypothetical threat then there is even more reason to not need a solution
 

Therefor the solution must at least do *something* about that perceived problem.

You're right, it is does something about the perceived threat. But the perceived threat in this case is the Reapers

In this case its genocide of synthetics. It is not a permanent solution, but it does delay the development of synthetics.

Which is succumbing to his logic, thus proving his point that they cannot exist.
 
Instead of refusing to co-operate, at all, with his logic. Period.

hmm funny, i thought i destroyed the reapers ( and geth ) in order to stop the reaper threat, which was the only threat atm, wasn't going to just stand there like a retard wondering where his ice cream went in 100degree weather. But take action. save lives. not "succumb to a ai's logic. considering that the only plan it endores is synthesis

sure the geth get destroying, but as legion said, death has different consequences for them. so who knows how it will affect them. if it even does. considering the geth are software not hardware, i mean does the beam of magic delete all files or something?


i mean which option does what the catalyst wants, and has shepard succumbing to it's logic. the one that blows them up l., or the one that allows the reapers to continue reaping. or synthesis the one that it has tried before

Pretty much the only reason death has a different meaning for them is because they rely on organics for their creation. If you pick destroy, they would be sure to change this.

[ghost9191]

mavqt wrote...

iSpaceMarine wrote...

 I think it's safe to assume that the Geth don't die and that the Starchild is just a lying little brat who doesn't want the Reapers destroyed. There's three things that prove this:

1. Shepard, who's vital organs work thanks to synthetic implants, breathes.
2. EDI can come out of the ship. (If you think it's a bug, see next reason)
3. Merizan says on her twitter it's not a bug and Geth survive.

EDIT: Found source to Merizan's statements on Twitter and according to her; Shepard's still on the Citadel, only the Reaper Tech part of the Geth is destroyed and EDI lives since she's not Reaper Tech.

tl;dr: Only Reaper Tech is destroyed.

http://img849.images...81/51729254.jpg 
http://cs5928.userap.../x_8618bc37.jpg 
http://t2.gstatic.co...keHTW53NQFDZG9w 
http://img844.images...120409at115.png 
AND FINALLY:

http://img607.images...82/18299916.jpg 

Doesn't high EMS Destroy target Reaper tech only? Otherwise wouldn't biotic implants also be buggered, aswell as Omni-tools and the rest.

right. and low ems destroys everything so

but it only destroys synthetics, i think the catalyst made a point to say that,

Modifié par ghost9191, 24 août 2012 - 11:17 .

[Jadebaby]

mavqt wrote...

iSpaceMarine wrote...

*snips*

Doesn't high EMS Destroy target Reaper tech only? Otherwise wouldn't biotic implants also be buggered, aswell as Omni-tools and the rest.

Okay, Reaper tech isn't only thing being destroyed, it's all synthetics. I don't know what that person was on, but even if it were just Reaper tech the Geth and EDI would be dead anyway.

Biotics is Eezo, that's totally different. Omni-tools are definitely not synthetic life...

Lastly, can people PLZ stop quoting the community manager as word of god? PLZ!?

[Pitznik]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

It's because we have already proved starchild wrong by uniting the Geth and Quarians, to go and kill them now would only cause future synthetics to, in fact, rise against us once they learn we wiped out their entire existence before.

Stopping one war isn't proof there won't be any more wars.

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Synthetics rising up against organics might not be inevitable, but if you follow the destroy path it will be.

This statement is as logical and wise as Catalyst's ideas.

Jade8aby88 wrote...

The Geth's survival is crucial for organic and synthetic harmony.

Not really, no.

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Also, Geth have Reaper code now which makes them able to "understand" us at least a bit better, doesn't it?

Yes. And?

Jade8aby88 wrote...

PSS - Don't say "CSD aren't starchild's options, it's the crucibles, he
just presents them." That's actually bs, all three options are connected
to the citadel. The crucible is just the battery source to power these
choices. Citadel is 'apart' of starchild.

If Citadel is the Catalyst, and Catalyst created the Reapers, it is quite unlikely the Reapers created the Citadel. Crucible is more than just a battery, too.