264 réponses à ce sujet

[Jadebaby]

o Ventus wrote...

I'm not sure it's so much that the geth are "necessary" to prevent future synthetic rebellion, as much as it is the Catalyst just forgetting that the geth ever existed and being facetious.

... Not that that's any better.

Also, like I (and others) have said, the geth being killed off in Destroy is only an effect so that Destroy has a downside.

Yes, as Massa just said, it's an issue that the Catalyst chose to ignore it. But it's program to it's logic, so any proof otherwise will not matter. This is the problem.

The geth and EDI would both be allies thereby acting as representatives to other synthetics that co-existence is possible.

[Apocaleepse360]

It's the biggest problem I have with the Destroy ending. We're getting punished for doing what we set out to do from the start.

[eye basher]

The geth tried to kill me twice sorry but i'm not giving them a third chance and don't try to sell me that indoctrination mumbo jumbo because the geth followed the treapers of their own free will.

[KENNY4753]

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

It's the biggest problem I have with the Destroy ending. We're getting punished for doing what we set out to do from the start.

^ This

[Jadebaby]

eye basher wrote...

The geth tried to kill me twice sorry but i'm not giving them a third chance and don't try to sell me that indoctrination mumbo jumbo because the geth followed the treapers of their own free will.

You realise everytime the Geth attacked you was because they were manipulated by a Reaper, right?

[zambot]

The thing that I love best about Destroy is that if you sided with the Quarians, there is almost no downside to picking it!

[o Ventus]

eye basher wrote...

The geth tried to kill me twice sorry but i'm not giving them a third chance and don't try to sell me that indoctrination mumbo jumbo because the geth followed the treapers of their own free will.

Wait, what?

Oh, right, you never spoke to Legion.

[Rocktel]

zambot wrote...

The thing that I love best about Destroy is that if you sided with the Quarians, there is almost no downside to picking it!

Siding with the quarians is its own downside.

[Jadebaby]

IsaacShep wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

But it didn't stop the minds from not having any say in the previous cycle. Maybe the organic minds get corrupted.

What say they had in previous cycles?

Nothing, it's just either that or Catalyst rules supreme.

IsaacShep wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

You are right though, for what we see there is peace. But for how long? Tyranny never lasts.

I don't see any turanny being inflicted by Paragon Shep-AI.

It's still a kind of totalitarian dictatorship though is it not?

[KENNY4753]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

eye basher wrote...

The geth tried to kill me twice sorry but i'm not giving them a third chance and don't try to sell me that indoctrination mumbo jumbo because the geth followed the treapers of their own free will.

You realise everytime the Geth attacked you was because they were manipulated by a Reaper, right?

The geth got the shaft in the destroy ended, so did EDI (and not from Joker)

[justafan]

I would have had no problem with the Geth and EDI being destroyed if I was explicitly told they would die because of their reaper code. That would at least make sense given the Crucible's purpose. It actually would have been a tragic price the Geth payed for their individuality, even though I thought the idea to use reaper code to begin with was idiotic.

However, it all would have been better had the Catalyst at least acknowledged that the Geth and Quarians were working together in spite of his logic, since that was what we were all thinking to begin with.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I am not going to counter your post line by line. I do not believe in winning discussions.

 
Neither do I, I just do this because it's easier to gain context on what pieces of information I am replying to.

But the fact that there cannot be solutions to a non-existent problem does not mean that the brat thinks the problem is hypothetical.And thus for the brat even destruction is a solution, because the genocide of synthetics causes at least a delay of the development of synthetics. It even warns you that the solution is not a permanent one.

 
I thought you said it was hypothetical? The rest I agree with.

I rather reject all of the brat's solutions and I cannot go for the refusal option, but I feel it is better to make a choice than none at all. I go for the destroy option not to exterminate synthetics, but to get rid of the reapers. I cannot refuse, because I feel that refusal is only a delay of selecting one of the three options in the future by someone else in another cycle - assuming that Liara's time capsule works. I rather make that choice myself now, because the refusal option causes the cycle to continue and would most likely result in the death of all. It then becomes the number game, much like what Shepard discusses with Garrus: You kill 10 billion here to save 20 billion there. In both the refusal and destroy option the synthetics will be killed, but in the destroy option at least the rest survives.

I was never debating that the refuse option currently presented is better, nor is this thread even about which ending is better. It is simply about certain consequences of the CSD endings. Anytime I even mention refuse, it is talking about the 'act' of refusal, not the consequences of it. As that could just be changed with, well, the Puzzle Theory. 

I don't feel happy about that number game at all, but the death of all would worry me even more. The destroy solution is also close to Shepard's primary Spectre task: Peace and stability of the galaxy. Annihilation of the entire galaxy does not fit that task. Getting rid of the reapers does. No other option does that.

Coming back to view the current refuse ending on the whole, is that it's completely nihilstic, because of it's own consequences. It really is a game over ending. But add a successful refuse ending and it can just become a low-EMS ending.

Yes. I think it is hypothetical. But the brat thinks otherwise. That still does not mean I think it is not hypothetical. But if the brat claims superiority then I need to be able to follow how it thinks. I see that a lot of other posters just use arguments that "the writers have done a poor job" or that "there is some problem with its programming". The former has the problem that if you follow that line of thought then we better stop thinking about it altogether. The latter is only used by those who want to make the brat not responsible for its actions. That wish does not make it true, because nothing in the game proves their point. So, I have to take the brat seriously. Meaning: It is a worthy opponent. It is in my interest to follow (or try to follow) how it thinks. That by itself doesn't mean I agree with its line of thought.

To me mentioning refusal is important, because I reject the brat's hypothetical threat and thus any of its options cannot be a solution. They are nonsense. So I have to make clear why I go for any of its solutions to that hypothetical problem anyway. My old stance on this was even more radical. I quit playing the game after killing Marauder Shields. That didn't allow me to finish the game, so I changed my mind. And that made me come up with the earlier mentioned reasoning.

Yes. The refusal ending was poorly done. It just extends the brat's reasoning. BW must have thought that was more important then coming up with a refusal that would satisfy its fans. I wonder if they realized that by doing it their way they actually gave the finger to their fans.

Anyway. So far my thoughts on why the synthetics had to be killed in the destroy option - mentioned in an earlier post.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 25 août 2012 - 12:59 .

[Apocaleepse360]

eye basher wrote...

The geth tried to kill me twice sorry but i'm not giving them a third chance and don't try to sell me that indoctrination mumbo jumbo because the geth followed the treapers of their own free will.

Because the Quarians tried to kill them. It was an act of self defense. Were you not listening to Legion? The Quarians attacked a major part of the Geth's intelligence (since each unit worked together to form intelligence, they weren't capable of individual intelligence). This made them act out of sheer desperation and make a bad decision. Don't tell me that humanity wouldn't do the exact same thing in the exact same situation, because you and I both know that the majority of us would.

And the Geth that you were killing in ME1 were Geth that chose to separate from the main Geth community. Ones that Legion called "Heretics". In other words, the main Geth community had nothing to do with Sovereign in Mass Effect 1, and the Quarians were responsible for them taking sides with the Reapers in Mass Effect 3.

But I'm not here to say don't pick Destroy, I'm here to say that Destroy shouldn't have had a consequence like that, because the main goal of the trilogy has been to destroy the Reapers. If anything, Synthesis should have been the compromise, NOT Destroy.

Modifié par Apocaleepse360, 25 août 2012 - 12:43 .

[Rocktel]

justafan wrote...

I would have had no problem with the Geth and EDI being destroyed if I was explicitly told they would die because of their reaper code. That would at least make sense given the Crucible's purpose. It actually would have been a tragic price the Geth payed for their individuality, even though I thought the idea to use reaper code to begin with was idiotic.

However, it all would have been better had the Catalyst at least acknowledged that the Geth and Quarians were working together in spite of his logic, since that was what we were all thinking to begin with.

The reason they got destroyed was because the Crucible destroyed all sufficiently advanced technology, not just Reapers or even AI.

[eye basher]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

eye basher wrote...

The geth tried to kill me twice sorry but i'm not giving them a third chance and don't try to sell me that indoctrination mumbo jumbo because the geth followed the treapers of their own free will.

You realise everytime the Geth attacked you was because they were manipulated by a Reaper, right?

The geth belived the reapers were the next stage in synthetic evolution and that's why they followed them they werent manipulated and the second time they just made a deal with the devil i mean after all there's no way the devil would double cross you.

[Rocktel]

eye basher wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

eye basher wrote...

The geth tried to kill me twice sorry but i'm not giving them a third chance and don't try to sell me that indoctrination mumbo jumbo because the geth followed the treapers of their own free will.

You realise everytime the Geth attacked you was because they were manipulated by a Reaper, right?

The geth belived the reapers were the next stage in synthetic evolution and that's why they followed them they werent manipulated and the second time they just made a deal with the devil i mean after all there's no way the devil would double cross you.

No the Geth didn't believe the Reapers were the next stage, the Heretics did. Unless you're practicing collective guilt.

In that case, humans have tried to kill Shepard a buttload of times, should we exterminate them too?

As for the second time, they had no choice. It was either submit to the Reapers or be destroyed by the quarian military fanatics.

[justafan]

Rocktel wrote...

justafan wrote...

I would have had no problem with the Geth and EDI being destroyed if I was explicitly told they would die because of their reaper code. That would at least make sense given the Crucible's purpose. It actually would have been a tragic price the Geth payed for their individuality, even though I thought the idea to use reaper code to begin with was idiotic.

However, it all would have been better had the Catalyst at least acknowledged that the Geth and Quarians were working together in spite of his logic, since that was what we were all thinking to begin with.

The reason they got destroyed was because the Crucible destroyed all sufficiently advanced technology, not just Reapers or even AI.

I still find that explanation fishy (even though it is true from a certin point of view).  Especially considering the only "sufficiently advanced tech" we see affected is reaper tech and those with reaper tech.  After all, fully functioning ships are seen flying away in high EMS destroy, and I'd imagine starships are as advanced as you'd get.

Maybe starchild is just so full of himself, the only tech he deams "advanced" is of reaper design.

Modifié par justafan, 25 août 2012 - 12:49 .

[Apocaleepse360]

eye basher wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

eye basher wrote...

The geth tried to kill me twice sorry but i'm not giving them a third chance and don't try to sell me that indoctrination mumbo jumbo because the geth followed the treapers of their own free will.

You realise everytime the Geth attacked you was because they were manipulated by a Reaper, right?

The geth belived the reapers were the next stage in synthetic evolution and that's why they followed them they werent manipulated and the second time they just made a deal with the devil i mean after all there's no way the devil would double cross you.

Legion dubbed the ones that believed that Heretics. They left the Geth community to follow Sovereign. The Geth had absolutely nothing to do with the Galaxy until the Reapers actually came, they just kept to themselves. And as I said before, their intelligence was dimmed thanks to the Quarians' attack on a major hub housing the majority of their programs, they acted on basic survival instinct, nothing more. Like I said before, humanity would have done the exact same thing if they were thrown into the same predicament as the Geth.

[Apocaleepse360]

justafan wrote...

Rocktel wrote...

justafan wrote...

I would have had no problem with the Geth and EDI being destroyed if I was explicitly told they would die because of their reaper code. That would at least make sense given the Crucible's purpose. It actually would have been a tragic price the Geth payed for their individuality, even though I thought the idea to use reaper code to begin with was idiotic.

However, it all would have been better had the Catalyst at least acknowledged that the Geth and Quarians were working together in spite of his logic, since that was what we were all thinking to begin with.

The reason they got destroyed was because the Crucible destroyed all sufficiently advanced technology, not just Reapers or even AI.

I still find that explanation fishy (even though it is true from a certin point of view).  Especially considering the only "sufficiently advanced tech" we see affected is reaper tech and those with reaper tech.  After all, fully functioning ships are seen flying away in high EMS destroy, and I'd imagine starships are as advanced as you'd get.

Maybe starchild is just so full of himself, the only tech he deams "advanced" is of reaper design.

Not to mention that it's implied that Shepard lives, even though his/her implants are based off Sovereign's tech.

Modifié par Apocaleepse360, 25 août 2012 - 12:51 .

[Rocktel]

justafan wrote...

Rocktel wrote...

justafan wrote...

I would have had no problem with the Geth and EDI being destroyed if I was explicitly told they would die because of their reaper code. That would at least make sense given the Crucible's purpose. It actually would have been a tragic price the Geth payed for their individuality, even though I thought the idea to use reaper code to begin with was idiotic.

However, it all would have been better had the Catalyst at least acknowledged that the Geth and Quarians were working together in spite of his logic, since that was what we were all thinking to begin with.

The reason they got destroyed was because the Crucible destroyed all sufficiently advanced technology, not just Reapers or even AI.

I still find that explanation fishy (even though it is true from a certin point of view).  Especially considering the only "sufficiently advanced tech" we see affected is reaper tech and those with reaper tech.  After all, fully functioning ships are seen flying away in high EMS destroy, and I'd imagine starships are as advanced as you'd get.

Maybe starchild is just so full of himself, the only tech he deams "advanced" is of reaper design.

I don't think the Starchild actually decided what got destroyed and what didn't.

As for advanced tech, he just says some technology will be destroyed as well when you ask him about it. A starship is likely not as complex as a fully evolved AI. Maybe if the Geth hadn't used the Reaper  upgrades destroy wouldn't have affected them

[shepskisaac]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

It's still a kind of totalitarian dictatorship though is it not?

Just because somone has means to be a dictator doesn't mean he is/will be. Rachni & Krogan will be huge forces in new Galaxy. They may completly dominate population-wise, military and economically. Doesn't mean they will terror other races. And considering that Shep AI talks all about everyone having voice blah blah, it certinately doesn't look to me like he wants to 'rule the galaxy himself'.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 25 août 2012 - 12:55 .

[Jadebaby]

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

justafan wrote...

Rocktel wrote...

justafan wrote...

I would have had no problem with the Geth and EDI being destroyed if I was explicitly told they would die because of their reaper code. That would at least make sense given the Crucible's purpose. It actually would have been a tragic price the Geth payed for their individuality, even though I thought the idea to use reaper code to begin with was idiotic.

However, it all would have been better had the Catalyst at least acknowledged that the Geth and Quarians were working together in spite of his logic, since that was what we were all thinking to begin with.

The reason they got destroyed was because the Crucible destroyed all sufficiently advanced technology, not just Reapers or even AI.

I still find that explanation fishy (even though it is true from a certin point of view).  Especially considering the only "sufficiently advanced tech" we see affected is reaper tech and those with reaper tech.  After all, fully functioning ships are seen flying away in high EMS destroy, and I'd imagine starships are as advanced as you'd get.

Maybe starchild is just so full of himself, the only tech he deams "advanced" is of reaper design.

Not to mention that it's implied that Shepard lives, even though his/her implants are based off Sovereign's tech.

whoa, can you back that up?

[Jadebaby]

IsaacShep wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

It's still a kind of totalitarian dictatorship though is it not?

Just because somone has means to be a dictator doesn't mean he is/will be. Rachni & Krogan will be huge forces in new Galaxy. They may completly dominate population-wise, military and economically. Doesn't mean they will terror other races. And considering that Shep AI talks all about everyone having voice blah blah, it certinately doesn't look to me like he wants to 'rule the galaxy himself'.

You mean itself.

[SCRS JMFCHUCKIE]

I'm disturbed that we lose one, one who placed a spot in our hearts and our feet (when we were AFK) and his name is KEI-9. KEI-9 boosted the morale of Lieutenant Steven Cortez and Lieutenant James Vega during their mission on the Normandy SR-2 to stop the Reaper Threat on Earth. Through Destroy, we lose so many dear:

*EDI
*KEI-9
*The Entire Geth Race