264 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

IsaacShep wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

but like I said before, as soon as a new conflict starts Shreaper will use the Reapers and end up harvesting to stop it

And when I see this happening in say, ME4, I will admit you were right. Until then, nothing implies Shepard wants to have anything to do with Starbrat's brilliant solutions

except thats not Shepard, its an AI with only Shepards memory, without emotion or anything else it can easily go back into the Starbrats logic when a new conflict happens

[KENNY4753]

AresKeith wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

but like I said before, as soon as a new conflict starts Shreaper will use the Reapers and end up harvesting to stop it

And when I see this happening in say, ME4, I will admit you were right. Until then, nothing implies Shepard wants to have anything to do with Starbrat's brilliant solutions

except thats not Shepard, its an AI with only Shepards memory, without emotion or anything else it can easily go back into the Starbrats logic when a new conflict happens

I just find it hilarious how one second you argue with TIM that control is wrond and when you get presented with the choice to control everybody says "lets choose control, it's the paragon thing to do" How is siding with TIM paragon and like you said when a conflict breaks out he will either wipe on out or scare the s*** out of the 2 races fighting. That isn't a paragon thing to do. 

[shepskisaac]

AresKeith wrote...

except thats not Shepard, its an AI with only Shepards memory, without emotion or anything else it can easily go back into the Starbrats logic when a new conflict happens

It can't "go back" to Starbrat's logic, it never had Starbrat's logic. This is a new AI, one that's very different to Starbrat who was created as an AI, not an uploaded organic mind, AND it was created for a specific purpouse.

[Jadebaby]

IsaacShep wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

If you pick control, it is no longer about what Shepard or starbrat wants, because they are the same entity now.

No, Starbrat doesn't exist anymore. They're not fusing together. Shep deletes Starbrat and uploads himself.

Jade8aby88 wrote...

tyrant/dictator, doesn't make much difference. Once a problem comes along the new Catalysts programming will be required to act again.

What programming? Shep AI is new, it's created from Shep. It's not programmed by Leviathans.

Sheps personality matrix is uploaded, it's still the same hardware created by the Leviathans, and still serves the same purpose with the same functions.

Same car, same destination, different driver.

[Dr. Megaverse]

KENNY4753 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

but like I said before, as soon as a new conflict starts Shreaper will use the Reapers and end up harvesting to stop it

And when I see this happening in say, ME4, I will admit you were right. Until then, nothing implies Shepard wants to have anything to do with Starbrat's brilliant solutions

except thats not Shepard, its an AI with only Shepards memory, without emotion or anything else it can easily go back into the Starbrats logic when a new conflict happens

I just find it hilarious how one second you argue with TIM that control is wrond and when you get presented with the choice to control everybody says "lets choose control, it's the paragon thing to do" How is siding with TIM paragon and like you said when a conflict breaks out he will either wipe on out or scare the s*** out of the 2 races fighting. That isn't a paragon thing to do. 

It's almost as though the Blue colored handles make it ok <_<.  Honestly on my first play through I accidentally chose control, because of the blue coloring (I hate admitting this) and reloaded and chose Destroy which I had intended on choosing.  To me, more proof the little holojerk is playing tricksies with Shepard's mind. 

[shepskisaac]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Sheps personality matrix is uploaded, it's still the same hardware created by the Leviathans, and still serves the same purpose with the same functions.

Same car, same destination, different driver.

The destination wasn't pogrammed in hardware, it was programmed in the AI.

[KENNY4753]

Dr. Megaverse wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

but like I said before, as soon as a new conflict starts Shreaper will use the Reapers and end up harvesting to stop it

And when I see this happening in say, ME4, I will admit you were right. Until then, nothing implies Shepard wants to have anything to do with Starbrat's brilliant solutions

except thats not Shepard, its an AI with only Shepards memory, without emotion or anything else it can easily go back into the Starbrats logic when a new conflict happens

I just find it hilarious how one second you argue with TIM that control is wrond and when you get presented with the choice to control everybody says "lets choose control, it's the paragon thing to do" How is siding with TIM paragon and like you said when a conflict breaks out he will either wipe on out or scare the s*** out of the 2 races fighting. That isn't a paragon thing to do. 

It's almost as though the Blue colored handles make it ok <_<.  Honestly on my first play through I accidentally chose control, because of the blue coloring (I hate admitting this) and reloaded and chose Destroy which I had intended on choosing.  To me, more proof the little holojerk is playing tricksies with Shepard's mind. 

On my first playthrough I didn't even look at the colors. I saw where destroy was and went right there bc that's what i always intended to do.

[Jadebaby]

IsaacShep wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Sheps personality matrix is uploaded, it's still the same hardware created by the Leviathans, and still serves the same purpose with the same functions.

Same car, same destination, different driver.

The destination wasn't pogrammed in hardware, it was programmed in the AI.

Accepting any future that involves the Reapers present is leaving you with only one direction, a one way road. It doesn't matter where the fault was.

[3DandBeyond]

IsaacShep wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

If you pick control, it is no longer about what Shepard or starbrat wants, because they are the same entity now.

No, Starbrat doesn't exist anymore. They're not fusing together. Shep deletes Starbrat and uploads himself.

Jade8aby88 wrote...

tyrant/dictator, doesn't make much difference. Once a problem comes along the new Catalysts programming will be required to act again.

What programming? Shep AI is new, it's created from Shep. It's not programmed by Leviathans.

I don't recall it ever saying he'd be deleted.  I only recall him saying he wouldn't like it but he'd accept it.  And Shepard sure is fusing with something since there's an awful lot of voices speaking through Shreaper.

All it is is the thoughts and memories of Shepard.  Take a look at yourself.  Is that the essence of all that you are-emotionless thoughts and memories.  When you have a good memory, what happens?  You feel something like happiness, right?  Shreaper wouldn't.  The context for "it" would perhaps be that that memory was logical.  But what about a so-so memory that made you neither happy nor sad or mad.  Maybe you just remember a trip to the store.  How would a being of logic store that memory?  Logic is on or off, yes or no, 1 or 0, there is no gray area.  So negative memories might be very important ones where you made mistakes but learned something or where you were sad but the memory is a good one to have.  Shreaper might see that as illogical.  So, positive memories are logical.  Negative ones illogical.  So, then if similar situations to those memories happen, Shreaper might not get them right-without emotion to truly understand them.  This Shepard is not Shepard. 

People's thoughts, values, character, personality, memories are so intricately woven with emotion and each other that if you separate them as in this case, the person is no longer the same. 

[Eralrik]

Useing the destroy option if we go back to Soveriegn's comment:



SOVEREIGN
Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays, our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.

If we rationalize reaper tech then just about everything in the Mass Effect universe uses some form of the tech to advance according to Sovereign. An Star Child even mention's to Shepard that he/she is also part machine with the rebuilding that brought shepard back to life and could possibly kill Shepard as well.
The Control option I can see for Renegade who is Power Hungry an wants the ultimate control.
Synthysthis option I don't condone Space Magic an it's a non viable option for me to force everyone into a hive mind you loose what makes you, you. You have no soul it's all replaced with tech an organic material.
I chose the 4th option wipe out all life and forget that these ending's existed and then reload and save at the point before the charge to the blue light and end my game there an let it play out in my mind with a more agreeable ending where the Crucible is really a device to enhance and upgrade all ships in the fleet's to that on par with the Reapers an we start pummeling them and driving them back for an all out assault to decide the fate of the galaxy.

[AresKeith]

IsaacShep wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

except thats not Shepard, its an AI with only Shepards memory, without emotion or anything else it can easily go back into the Starbrats logic when a new conflict happens

It can't "go back" to Starbrat's logic, it never had Starbrat's logic. This is a new AI, one that's very different to Starbrat who was created as an AI, not an uploaded organic mind, AND it was created for a specific purpouse.

Yea, to police, protect, and guide. But like I said before it only has Shepards memory not his emotions or anything else about him/her, it'll only use logic to deal with things and when a new conflict happens it can do something almost similar or just like old Catalyst

[AresKeith]

KENNY4753 wrote...

Dr. Megaverse wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

but like I said before, as soon as a new conflict starts Shreaper will use the Reapers and end up harvesting to stop it

And when I see this happening in say, ME4, I will admit you were right. Until then, nothing implies Shepard wants to have anything to do with Starbrat's brilliant solutions

except thats not Shepard, its an AI with only Shepards memory, without emotion or anything else it can easily go back into the Starbrats logic when a new conflict happens

I just find it hilarious how one second you argue with TIM that control is wrond and when you get presented with the choice to control everybody says "lets choose control, it's the paragon thing to do" How is siding with TIM paragon and like you said when a conflict breaks out he will either wipe on out or scare the s*** out of the 2 races fighting. That isn't a paragon thing to do. 

It's almost as though the Blue colored handles make it ok <_<.  Honestly on my first play through I accidentally chose control, because of the blue coloring (I hate admitting this) and reloaded and chose Destroy which I had intended on choosing.  To me, more proof the little holojerk is playing tricksies with Shepard's mind. 

On my first playthrough I didn't even look at the colors. I saw where destroy was and went right there bc that's what i always intended to do.

I stopped caring after I saw the Starbrat, I was like nope there dying lol

[Jadebaby]

Eralrik wrote...

The Control option I can see for Renegade who is Power Hungry an wants the ultimate control.

I agree with almost everything else except this.

Although it does cater to the Power Hungry side that Renegades would go for, the means in which to achieve it is too great. That type of Shepard would never give up the pleasures of being an organic solely for lust of power.

[KENNY4753]

AresKeith wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

except thats not Shepard, its an AI with only Shepards memory, without emotion or anything else it can easily go back into the Starbrats logic when a new conflict happens

It can't "go back" to Starbrat's logic, it never had Starbrat's logic. This is a new AI, one that's very different to Starbrat who was created as an AI, not an uploaded organic mind, AND it was created for a specific purpouse.

Yea, to police, protect, and guide. But like I said before it only has Shepards memory not his emotions or anything else about him/her, it'll only use logic to deal with things and when a new conflict happens it can do something almost similar or just like old Catalyst

If it goes by it's memorys and logic then for example if you cured genophage the AI may think that you should always side with Krogan

[KENNY4753]

AresKeith wrote...

I stopped caring after I saw the Starbrat, I was like nope there dying lol

lol when i first seen the starbrat i literally said "what the f*** is this supposed to be"

[AresKeith]

KENNY4753 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

except thats not Shepard, its an AI with only Shepards memory, without emotion or anything else it can easily go back into the Starbrats logic when a new conflict happens

It can't "go back" to Starbrat's logic, it never had Starbrat's logic. This is a new AI, one that's very different to Starbrat who was created as an AI, not an uploaded organic mind, AND it was created for a specific purpouse.

Yea, to police, protect, and guide. But like I said before it only has Shepards memory not his emotions or anything else about him/her, it'll only use logic to deal with things and when a new conflict happens it can do something almost similar or just like old Catalyst

If it goes by it's memorys and logic then for example if you cured genophage the AI may think that you should always side with Krogan

and what if you helped the Rachni too, and then there's a conflict between those two or three if the Krogan tries to fight the Turians also. It can't rely on logic for that

[shepskisaac]

[quote]Jade8aby88 wrote...

Accepting any future that involves the Reapers present is leaving you with only one direction, a one way road. It doesn't matter where the fault was.[/quote]How does it leave you with only one direction? Seriously

[quote]3DandBeyond wrote...

I don't recall it ever saying he'd be deleted.  I only recall him saying he wouldn't like it but he'd accept it. [/quote]He said angrily that he doesn't look forward to be replaced by Shep. And then we even see him disappearing when Shep takes control.

[quote]3DandBeyond wrote...

And Shepard sure is fusing with something since there's an awful lot of voices speaking through Shreaper.[/quote]Yeah, all the voices from the minds of different races stored in Reapers. That doesn't make it automatically 'evil'. Catalyst was controlling the Reapers and ordering them what to do. DO you really think all these different minds of races want to go on a killing spree if it was their choice?

[quote]3DandBeyond wrote...

All it is is the thoughts and memories of Shepard.  Take a look at yourself.  Is that the essence of all that you are-emotionless thoughts and memories.  When you have a good memory, what happens?  You feel something like happiness, right?  Shreaper wouldn't.  The context for "it" would perhaps be that that memory was logical.  But what about a so-so memory that made you neither happy nor sad or mad.  Maybe you just remember a trip to the store.  How would a being of logic store that memory?  Logic is on or off, yes or no, 1 or 0, there is no gray area.  So negative memories might be very important ones where you made mistakes but learned something or where you were sad but the memory is a good one to have.  Shreaper might see that as illogical.  So, positive memories are logical.  Negative ones illogical.  So, then if similar situations to those memories happen, Shreaper might not get them right-without emotion to truly understand them.  This Shepard is not Shepard. 

People's thoughts, values, character, personality, memories are so intricately woven with emotion and each other that if you separate them as in this case, the person is no longer the same.  [/quote]AIs in this franchise have emotions, it was showcased time and time again. So to think Shep AI won't have emotions when he is actually based on an organic is just silly. People keep raging how immoral it was to be forced to kill Geth & EDI in Destroy because they were people yet they treat AI Shep like a killing emotionless dirt that will surely hurt others.

[/quote]

Modifié par IsaacShep, 25 août 2012 - 02:10 .

[KENNY4753]

AresKeith wrote...

and what if you helped the Rachni too, and then there's a conflict between those two or three if the Krogan tries to fight the Turians also. It can't rely on logic for that

not sure, flip a coin. but seriously though idk

[3DandBeyond]

Eralrik wrote...

Useing the destroy option if we go back to Soveriegn's comment:



SOVEREIGN
Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays, our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.

If we rationalize reaper tech then just about everything in the Mass Effect universe uses some form of the tech to advance according to Sovereign. An Star Child even mention's to Shepard that he/she is also part machine with the rebuilding that brought shepard back to life and could possibly kill Shepard as well.
The Control option I can see for Renegade who is Power Hungry an wants the ultimate control.
Synthysthis option I don't condone Space Magic an it's a non viable option for me to force everyone into a hive mind you loose what makes you, you. You have no soul it's all replaced with tech an organic material.
I chose the 4th option wipe out all life and forget that these ending's existed and then reload and save at the point before the charge to the blue light and end my game there an let it play out in my mind with a more agreeable ending where the Crucible is really a device to enhance and upgrade all ships in the fleet's to that on par with the Reapers an we start pummeling them and driving them back for an all out assault to decide the fate of the galaxy.

The problem with control for even a renegade is what good is power if no one knows you wield it?  A power hungry person wouldn't want it either unless they could call in a bunch of people to show how important s/he is.  That person or that Shepard would also want to use that power to get other people to do what s/he wants.  Power hungry people need an audience.  And they like sex and they love a good steak and video games and big tvs and an entourage.  They don't want to just control reapers for fun all alone in a void or a vaccuum.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 25 août 2012 - 02:11 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

IsaacShep wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Sheps personality matrix is uploaded, it's still the same hardware created by the Leviathans, and still serves the same purpose with the same functions.

Same car, same destination, different driver.

The destination wasn't pogrammed in hardware, it was programmed in the AI.

The only difference between how an AI and an organic thinks are the way the thought processes are achieved. One uses a synthetic brain, the other an organic one. Both are perfectly capable to think, learn, and change their minds.

Of course people love to bring programming into it, which suggest that some thought processes are determined by an external programmer to make it appear that the programmer is responsible for the actions of the AI and not the AI itself. While it is true that an AI is a program, it is written in such a way that the AI is self-aware and capable of creative and independent thought. The more advanced the AI, the better this has been done. The reapers already claim to be "the pinnacle of evolution and existence" and the brat claims to be "the collective intelligence of all reapers". If what the brat says is true then we have to assume that it is more than capable of thinking on it is own and that it is no way restricted.

Nothing in the game indicates any restriction. And thus the brat can be held accountable for its actions. If the brat is given a task then it can follow that task to the letter, but it doesn't have to. It is in no way restricted to that task. A VI, on the other hand, is restricted and it also does not satisfy the definition of an artificial intelligence. If the brat is supposed to be an AI then do not fiddle with the rules, just to satisfy your own personal preferences in what it is supposed to do.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 25 août 2012 - 02:26 .

[3DandBeyond]

IsaacShep wrote...

AIs in this franchise have emotions, it was showcased time and time again. So to think Shep AI won't have emotions when he is actually based on an organic is just silly. People keep raging how immoral it was to be forced to kill Geth & EDI in Destroy because they were people yet they treat AI Shep like a killing emotionless dirt that will surely hurt others.

No, not all AIs do.  The kid doesn't and he is a part of what Shepard will become.  The game says nothing about Shepard keeping his/her emotions.  It clearly says Shepard's thoughts and memories.  That's it.  EDI and the geth are different.  They are more than thoughts and memories.  EDI definitely ascribed feelings to her interactions with people.  But the kid is completely devoid of feeling.

The paragon control Shepard does not sound like s/he has emotions.  The music is ominous, Shreaper's voice is not just Shepard's and is creepy and there's no way that Shreaper could avoid either ruling by fear or killing people.

A great number of people would still want reapers destroyed-that's just "human" nature.  They killed my family, destroyed half my planet, now they're acting crazy and fixing things.  I don't care, they need to go.  So they kill some reapers.  That worked.  They kill more.  How many reapers will Shreaper let them kill?  The reapers are supposed to protect the Many.  If they're destroyed, they can't.  If the Krogan and the Rachni or the Turians fight, how does Shreaper stop that?  Either through killing some or through fear?  Live reapers present a problem for Shreaper.  And it will cause conflict and some will die.  And still again, what do reapers eat?  How do they survive.  All things need something to sustain them.  The logical conclusion is it's that goo. 

[o Ventus]

franciscoamell wrote...

Just pick Control or Synthesis. You can't have everything, godamnit.

You can if you steal.

/notcondoningtheft

[Jadebaby]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Sheps personality matrix is uploaded, it's still the same hardware created by the Leviathans, and still serves the same purpose with the same functions.

Same car, same destination, different driver.

The destination wasn't pogrammed in hardware, it was programmed in the AI.

The only difference between how an AI and an organic thinks are the way the thought processes are achieved. One uses a synthetic brain, the other an organic one. Both are perfectly capable to think, learn, and change their minds.

Of course people love to bring programming into it, which suggest that some thought processes are determined by an external programmer to make it appear that the programmer is responsible for the actions of the AI and not the AI itself. While it is true that an AI is a program, it is written in such a way that the AI is self-aware and capable of creative and independent thought. The more advanced the AI, the better this has been done. The reapers already claim to be "the pinnacle of evolution and existence" and the brat claims to be "the collective intelligence of all reapers". If what the brat says is true then we have to assume that it is more than capable of thinking on it is own and that it is no way restricted.

Nothing in the game indicates any restriction. And thus the brat can be held accountable for its actions. If the brat is given a task then it can follow that task to the letter, but it doesn't have to. It is in no way restricted to that task. A VI, on the other hand, is restricted and it also does not satisfy the definition of an artificial intelligence. If the brat is supposed to be an AI then do not fiddle with the rules, just to satisfy your own personal preferences in what it is supposed to do.

So what about shackled-AIs?

[Argetfalcon]

Agreed I like to think they fixed the Geth and EDI later on